BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul

Subject: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Arnie
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 05:50 AM

I hear that England 'fans' are already being rounded up by the Turkish police ahead of tonight's match in Istanbul. Seems like a sensible precaution and I can't see why any true fans would travel out there given the events of two years ago when 2 Leeds fans were stabbed to death. The Turks have this unfortunate reputation in the UK press following those tragic events but my wife and I were in Istanbul in April this year and found the Turks to be really friendly - got on really well with a restaurant owner who insisted in driving us around the city. Anyway, although friendly the Turks are fiercely patriotic and do not take kindly to English yobboes insulting their flag and their founder Kemal Ataturk, which was was happened when Leeds were last in town. No doubt there would be more of the same tonight if any England fans manage to get to the match...the footie is almost incidental but as Owen and Ferdinand are not playing the Turks must be in with a good chance. The stadium will be a seething cauldron of chanting Turkish supporters with plenty of 'Welcome to Hell' banners and flares going off..let's hope for a good clean match.....

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 11:55 AM

I can only second that.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 04:12 PM

England through with a deserved draw, a bit of trouble between Beckham and Alpay, scuffles in the tunnel when the teams were going off at half time.
Alpay taunting Beckham after he missed a penalty, very unsporting by the Turkish player. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 04:15 PM

Well it would have been very hard for tye poor man to keep a straight face after seeing Beckham fall flat on his back and boot the penalty way up over the bar.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: C-flat
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 04:17 PM

The Turks seem to save their aggression for football matches when, this otherwise friendly nation, turns hooligan.
As it turned out, the match was well managed by the referee who prevented events on the pitch from getting too heated. A good result for England, even if it wasn't pretty, and Turkey can return to welcoming its visitors.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 03 - 06:27 PM

I loved the comment by a reporter on the TV news who said that the crowd atbthe match was "Very intimidating, but not at all hostile", which I felt showed a nice ability to distinguish between things that are often confused with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 04:52 AM

The Turks are very nice people - until they get within a hundred yards of a football stadium.

The Turkish player had no right to "taunt" Beckham, this could have caused a riot. Beckham did very well to keep his cool. This sort of "taunting", some of it physical, was integral to the trouble at the recent Man U. /Arsenal match.

The only result that pleased me, from a "Home Countries" (quotation marks for Ard Mhacha's benefit(!) perspective, was the Scottish one!

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 04:56 AM

Football is boring!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 05:24 AM

Was it very hard, this time, even if only for the 'home perspective', to hope that the German team for once should not lose? (grin)

All in all, the usual suspects are together with few surprises (Switzerland, Greece among the qualified) and Latvia (among those who still have chances).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Arnie
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 07:41 AM

Beckham's slip-up on the penalty spot looked a bit suspicious to me. The England team had been told pre-match that they were not allowed to train inside the box. Watching the replay, it looks like a bit of turf has been loosened next to the penalty spot and this just comes away when Beckham's foot lands on it - could be a coincidence but I'm not too convinced. Alpay really was the villain of the piece and ought to be sacked by Aston Villa as he is unfit to play in the premiership. But, the right result in the end and we can now look forward to participating in Euro 2004. Wolfgang - the Germans certainly did Scotland a favour although they still have to get through the playoffs - wonder if they'll meet Turkey???? Giok - if you find football boring then you are not alone on this site, but I think those folkies who are also of a footballing persuasion should have their say from time to time.....

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 10:03 AM

I would defend to the death your right to be boring.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: John Routledge
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 10:44 AM

Just realised how little interest I now take in football.

Didn't know result till this thread :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 01:51 PM

A bit lucky for England, in that the referee - probably the world's best - was very fair and his fine handling of the game probably prevented them from losing their heads. I always felt that England were more at risk from their own temperaments than from the rather overrated ability of the Turkish football team. Had Turkey have won, the car horns would have been blaring away all night here. I got back late from a gig, so it was a relief that they didn't!

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 02:14 PM

Always we read of the home fans at England`s away games as being hostile.
In view of the England fans behaviour over the years both at home and away, I often wonder how the foreign press describes the England fans. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Abdul
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 02:48 PM

Big Tim - it might be worth telling the Kurds that the Turks are very nice people. Or were you being ironic (or are you thick?)

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 03:17 PM

Abdul: grow up.
You Turks are all the same!

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 03:56 PM

Perhaps Beckham skying the ball had less to do with dirty tricks but more to do with him practicing rugby penalty kicks with Johnny Wilkinson on that advert?

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 06:28 PM

I don't fancy the Turkish players (Alpay?) chances when he next plays in an English league match! Very foolish of him. I am not into footy but tend to watch England on the TV if I am not otherwise engaged. Found the whole thing rather dull but I may watch Aston Villa for a few matches to see if any legs get broken;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 06:38 PM

Ard A - As this is non political I can agree and endorse your views.

For the record, in the Valleys -

When England play the Windies at cricket we support the Windies

When England play South Africa at Rugby, these days we support South Africa.

And when England play anyone at Soccer we support the Police !

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: harvey andrews
Date: 12 Oct 03 - 06:48 PM

Oh Gareth, you appear to have caught the Scottish disease.
I remember as a student being thrilled to pieces when one of the players from the club I support got his first Welsh cap.
How much nicer life is when you can happily hope for the best for all.
Life is too short for the alternative.
Glad you won the rugby.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:46 AM

The English fans in the foreign press? Only speaking for Germany, they are described as the only fans all over Europe who may sometimes even be worse than ours.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:49 AM

Getting a crowd of English football fans into a German pub is one of the few ways you can force me into speaking German!

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 07:28 AM

Gareth, Please enlighten me, Glamorgan from time to time have had the odd Welsh player in the England side, I can recall that wee spinner Croft, thought you may have cheered Englannd on then.
But then again he couldn`t spin them like Alastair Campbell. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 07:38 AM

Scotland-Netherlands,

the lot could have been easier.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Ritchie
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 07:56 AM

the thing that impressed me more than anything was the refereeing. Was n't it first class, I remember when English refereeing was the best in the world and the majority of refs used common sense just like Luigi Collina seems to. Now we have the 4th official whose job it is to stop more than 1 person at a time in a stupid little box on the touchline & lift a daft board up showing changes & extra time. Oh yes and we also have an adjudicator in the stands . what a debacle but that sums up the FA for me.

Football has moved on but not refereeing . Well done luigi (just in caes you are reading this)

regards Ritchie.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 03 - 09:32 AM

Latvia v Turkey
Scotland v Netherlands
Croatia v Slovenia
Russia v Wales
Spain v Norway

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Beardy
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:50 AM

Wolfgang, regarding the German game as an Anglo-Scot the 'home perspective' you mentioned was not a concern. Apart from cricket I support any nation that plays against England because as a neutral living in England I hate the press coverage that despises and ridicules 'johnny foreigner'. What on earth does a game of football have to do with the previous conflicts/wars against Argentina or Germany? They just pander to the petty minded half wits that read the Sun & the Star who then run riot when visiting other countries because they cannot get an English breakfast.

I think I'll stop and have a lie down.

Stewart

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 08:24 AM

Beardy,

In taking that attitude you're behaving in exactly the same stupid, belligerent and intransigent manner as those two rags (I won't sully the word by describing them as 'newspapers') and the half-wits they pander to - I'm English, I don't hate foreign players/teams, I don't relate football games to previous conflicts/wars and I've absolutely never run riot anywhere in my life. I do, however, love the game of football and hold great players, whatever their nationality, in the highest regard. I also respect supporters of foreign teams, club or national.

Don't allow your prejudice to take charge and don't stereotype true football fans, English or otherwise, as the louts and thugs who have latched on to the game as a vehicle for their moronic behaviour - most of us aren't like that.

Incidentally, loutish behaviour isn't, or hasn't always been, restricted to the English - I'm old enough to remember the bloodbaths that used to be the 'Old Firm' games in Glasgie years ago. And who broke down the goalposts and dug up the pitch at Wembley? Oops, there goes another pane of glass!

Pax Frater
Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Beardy
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 01:02 PM

I didnt disparage English supporters just their jingoistic press and I dont hate any nationality. As for my prejudice, although I dont think it is a prejudice just a considered opinion, it means I can support the whole world with just one exception. Also you can get good odds in the bookies this way!

Stewart

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:29 PM

Johnny if only the magority of England fans were like you, look at the many lives would have been saved over the years.

I heard EVERY National Anthem being booed at Wembley, remember the hoodlums who were responsible for the Lansdowne Road riot a few years ago, one of the very few occasions when an International game had to be abandoned.

It isn`t the tabaloid rags alone that spew out their prejudice, your Radio and TV commentators are on a par with the newspapers, just imagine how the other nationalities who share the airways feel.Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 08:05 AM

Johnny I forgot to add, Glagow Celtic supporters were given an award by EUFA, for their sportsmanship at the EUFA Cup Final in May.
This was the only time such an award was given, can`t think of any English Premier team ever receiving this Trophy. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Strollin Johnny
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 08:34 AM

Ard Mhacha mate, the MAJORITY of football fans (including England supporters) ARE like me. It's just that the moronic minority are the ones who make it on to the front pages of the papers and on to Radio and TV. Reporting that a middle-aged, folk-singing accountant and his wife went to the game in the family car, enjoyed a half-time pie and a pint, had a laugh with a couple of fans of the other team, bought a shirt in the merchandise shop, stroked and patted a police-horse and then went home and had a chinky take-away doesn't sell papers. However, reporting that some pissed-up neanderthal dickhead smashed the skull of an opposing fan with a length of drainpipe does!

As I said in my previous post, don't impose a stereotype on all football fans based on the crap you see in the papers and on TV. Yes, there are rotten apples in the barrel and yes, there are too many of them, but most of us are just guys (and gals and kids) who enjoy the spectacle of the game.

Beardy/Stewart - quote ".....the petty-minded halfwits........ who then run riot when visiting other countries...." sounds disparaging to me! My post was in response to that accusation - I totally agree with you about our lunatic rabble-rousing press, I just think you're wrong to tar all England fans with the same brush. When I'm abroad I eat their food, drink their drinks, try to learn a bit of their language, rejoice in their art and culture, wonder at their architecture and, most importantly, befriend a few of their people.

And my last point in my previous post was that bad behaviour isn't limited to the English. There are few sporting nations who can truthfully claim to have no louts amongst their supporters, and Scotsmen (of whom I count a large number amongst my friends), or even half-Scotsmen, are in no position to preach to anyone about how to behave at a football match! There's been plenty of blood on the terraces, and in the streets and pubs, in the past North of the border too! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 08:38 AM

Ard Mhacha - just saw your last post which must have come in while I was writing mine. Yep, you're right about that and the Celtic fans are to be praised and admired for it. I watched the game with Liverpool on the haunted fishbowl and I was blown away by the atmosphere and obvious friendship in rivalry between the two sets of fans. Just proves my point - we're not all pillocks.

Pax :-)

Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Trevor
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 09:59 AM

What pees me off is the fact that, even when 'fans' are being 'well behaved and high spirited', I still have to put up with a load of racket, not just in the pub but out on the street as well, chanting, people walking down the middle of the carriageway doing that stupid, clapping, wardance, and bawling 'good natured' obscenities across the street to opposing fans.

Why should I have to stay out of my local town because there's a football match on?

And headlines along the lines of 'No trouble, only five arrests in minor skirmishes' make it sound as if we're all just having a jolly good time, when actually, I'm having a load of crap imposed on me and my family.

I enjoy football, but only from a distance now, on the telly, mainly because, even if it is a tiny minority Johnny, there's still enough of them to affect my Saturday afternoon.

As for 'I'll keep my eye on the Villa to see if any legs get broken', well that'll be a hoot won't it Dave! Maybe if we get Uri Geller to put a picture of Alpay's leg on GMTV, or in The Sun, we can all put our finger on it and wish, and it'll just happen - that's the kind of thing the intelligentsia of the game usually do isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:58 AM

Hehehe - Good lad Trevor:-) Wish I'd have thought of the Uri Geller one!

I have the same trouble as you whenever there is a match at Old Trafford. I work about 1/2 mile from the ground and have to pass close by to get home. Like you I am cheesed off with the 'Good natured high spirits' that means it is perfectly acceptible for fans to shout, swear, urinate in public and generaly create a nuisance.

Sorry, Strollin Johny, I am sure you are a fine bloke but the overall impression to this non-football fan is that the majority of supporters couldn't give a damn for anyone or anything else but their precious team!

I know there must be loads of well behaved fans but they are very dificult to spot amongst the good-natured high-spirited planks!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 12:38 PM

Trevor, Dave - I can't deny your right to feel aggrieved guys, the same things pee me off too. I just hate it when decent people like me are labelled the same as the drongos. I don't do any of the gormless and anti-social things that you both listed, so I get a bit hot under the collar when people make these sweeping generalisations that all lovers of football are low-life hooligans - especially when it's done on a national basis - "You're an England Fan therefore you're scum, I'm a fan of (any other national team, especially Scotland) and we're as pure as the driven snow" - you know the kind of stuff!

I'm just trying to get it across that English Football fans aren't all bad, and most teams have their clique of trouble-makers. It's unfortunate but true that the trouble-makers are the ones who get noticed whilst the good guys like me and the missus are apparently invisible.

Pax.
Johnny.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 02:36 AM

Drongo

(n.) A passerine bird of the family Dicruridae. They are usually black with a deeply forked tail. They are natives of Asia, Africa, and Australia; -- called also drongo shrikes.

I take your point but there is no need to insult the planet's wild creatures by using their names to cover the few sad cases of humanity that do actually cause these problems.

If we police and treat all football fans as badly as the animals we herd - is it any wonder that these groups of people tend to react and behave badly?

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Trevor
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 03:51 AM

Well yes it is, actually, a wonder to me. If people behaved in the way that Johnny describes then the only policing that would be needed would be to make sure that everybody went in the right direction for the match.

As it is, because people like me grumble about the things that I mentioned above, it gives the local cops the excuse to go play commandos - and everybody is on the recieving end.

Get rid of the twats and there'd be no need for the 'heavy police presence' - which I also find offensive, and have to bloody well pay for!!

And what about the crap that we heard spouted by those dopey sods who, whilst describing themselves as 'normal, intelligent, law-abiding supporters of the England team, went on to say that they were going to trick their way in to the Istanbul match (and succeeded) because 'we live in a free society'. Has nobody ever told them that different cultures may have different traditions of imposing crap on all and sundry in the name of sport?

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 06:26 AM

Absolute 110% wholehearted agreement from me. Then when the twats are got rid of, people like me wouldn't be unjustly harangued for being a supporter of our national team and a lover of our national game, and we could turn our attention to that other band of morons, the supporters of fox-hunting. Sorry - thread drift - let my emotions bubble over there! :-)

All the best guys. I'm outta this one. Gotta go and do some work.

Johnny

And the

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 06:53 AM

Johnny, If only they were all like you, they were at it again last night, 87 Newcastle supporters were arrested in Holland, before and after the game with Breda. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:58 AM

Yep, Ard Mhacha (BTW, what does that mean?) you're so right. But again, it proves my point that it's the plonkers who make the news, not the good guys. Just pray that the loonies stick with football and don't change their allegiance to Curling. Imagine the damage they could inflict with those sweeping-brushes!! :-)

Johnny.

PS - I'm truly not making light of the problem - like you I hate those bastards who are ruining it for the rest of us. But how do you solve it? (Please don't say "By banning football" - that would mean the hooligans had won).

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 10:57 AM

An impossible task for anyone trying to curb the obnoxious behaviour of the English fans, restricting them to one pint of Lager might help, I am told, after two pints they have "lost it". Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 12:41 PM

Probably explains why I'm no hooligan - I wouldn't touch lager with the proverbial barge-pole. Only real ale for me - good taste comes with mature years!
You still haven't told me what Ard Mhacha means.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Big Tim
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 02:31 PM

Means Armagh ["Mhacha's height"]: Ard's concentration isn't what it used to be.

Awful violence at the Lokeren - Man City game too: seemed to be the Belgians battering the English on this ocasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: alanabit
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 03:34 PM

Football does not produce hooligans, it simply attracts them. It is the one spectator sport in many countries which attracts fans in great enough numbers for hooligans to immerse themselves with some prospect of anonymity. The hooligan's real sport is not football, it is fighting. The attraction of football for hooligans is that the crowds are so big, that they have a good chance of getting away with violence.
Like Strolling Johnny, I do like football and I do not like violence. Violence is stupid, dangerous, mean spirited - and when you are only five foot four (like me)- it hurts. It has long been a phenomenon among certain young men that they simply like fighting. They do it for the same reason that many people take drugs or drive stupidly. They find it all tremendous fun. It seems that the choices society has are to either convince these young men that they should channel their energies into something else, or provide facilites for them to enjoy violence where it interferes with neither other residents nor the splendid game of football.
Boxing clubs would appear to be unsuitable - as would rugby clubs. Both of these activities require tiresome levels of skill, dedication and training. That doesn't fit in well with a seríous drinking schedule. The more experienced participants tend to be impressively fit and they have an alarming tendency to thump you back if you target them.
Perhaps what we need is a number of "violence zones" so that people who wish to can meet up and pound the daylights out of each other. They could then pursue this (for some) natural but unlovely instinct. It is regrettably true that violent people go to football matches, but let's not dignify them with the description of "Football fans". For me that term means something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Gareth
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:03 PM

Mmmm ! Theres nothing wrong with hoping Croft produces good bowling figures. - And put the rest of the Narylebone Cricket Club team to shame.

And on a more unpleasent note, Cardiff FC "Supporters" ran riot at Sunderland this week - most of those arrested gave South Wales adresses - Regretably the Hooligans are not confined to the English.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 10:26 AM

Phew, someone's on my wavelength! Thanks alanabit - I needed that! And you're absolutely right - the loutish element have chosen football as the vehicle for their idiotic behaviour (see also my attempt at humour regarding the possibility of the louts switching allegiance to Curling, which seems to have gone right over some people's heads). And thanks Tim and Gareth for pointing out that it's not just an English disease, despite the way some would have it (sadly mostly Scotsmen with memories shorter than a Goldfish's, who are in no position to lecture anyone about bad public behaviour - and I should know, I've walked along Maryhill Road on many an evening) :-)

Anyhoo, I'm out of this one for good now. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 01:36 PM

Amazing people on this Site ,Tim there is no supporters come close to the English for loutish behaviour,that is both followers of the International team and Club sides.
That one Man City fan hadn`t the sense to join his barmy mates, yes, I seen him getting a hiding from those Belgian fans, I couldn`t imagine this happening to an Irish or Scottish fan, had they mixed with the opposition.
The English fans are loathed throughout the European continent, they have earned this reputation over many years. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 01:49 PM

So it was his own fault when he got beaten up, because he failed to behave like a hooligan, was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Big Tim
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 04:20 PM

Strollin' Johnny: off Maryhill Road, just up from Queen's Cross, adjacent to Firhill Stadium, home of Partick Thistle FC,is a street called Dunard Street: derivation, "fort of the height".

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 04:05 PM

Alan, Too bad for that City supporter, but it is very obvious, English soccer fan are detested in Europe, remember the ban on English clubs in the 1980s, 5 years if memory serves me right.
And now the England team are on a last warning to behave or they will also be banned from playing in the European Championship.

Glasgow Celtic fans are bringing 7000 fans to Brussels next Tuesday for their Champions League game with Anderlecht, only 2000 of their fans will have tickets for the game, yet the Belgium Police have agreed with the authorities to turn a large Park over to the Celtic supporters who cannot get into the Stadium.
This area will be designated to Celtic fans from noon onwards.

This would seem to be an amazingly generous gesture by the Belgians, but then again the Celtic support have earned the reputation of being sporting in both victory and defeat. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 06:11 PM

Rough justice would seem to be that if you can't risk to have your fans come along and sit next to the fans of the other side, you aren't fit to be allowed to play.

Mind, do it that way and the World Cup would be a much smaller affair. Ireland and the USA would probably be in it, but I'm not too sure of who else would qualify.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 04:48 AM

ard mhacha, I live in one of those European cities and I have seen thugs at work. Believe me, English football fans are no less welcome than some of the Dutch, some of the German lunatic fringe or some of the Rangers lunatic fringe. It is always a minority, however frightening a group of thugs looks. Strollin Johnny is right. The vast majority of fans who drink a quiet beer and cause no trouble at all never get in the newspapers. Consistency demands that we condemn the Belgian thugs every bit as much as the British thugs who have so often disgraced us. I usually take the precaution of only speaking German when British fans are in town. But it is not always necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 05:21 AM

I'm a bit worried about my daughter who's going to be in with the Anderlecht fans this Tuesday. So far though, after all the Celtic euro games last season, the only trouble she's has seen was provided by the Spanish police in Vigo!

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 11:18 AM

That is worth mentioning. Bad policing can be as big a menace to crowd safety as the hooligans themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 12:50 PM

Dont worry Tim the Irish supporters will look after her, with a little help from the Scots.
Aye, McGrath, nice one, 80,000 at this years All-Ireland GAA Final between two neighbouring Counties and huge rivals, Armagh and Tyrone, not one arrest, this is not surprising, it is always like this. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 03:01 PM

Ard, "Celtic fans sporting in defeat"! You've obviously never been in a Celtic pub in Partick (Glasgow)after a loss to Rangers! (Though it's been some time since the last one!)                        

Generally though, the behaviour of Scottish fans abroad has been much improved in recent years. Wembley '78 was quite a while back. Now the Tartan Army pride themselves on their camaraderie, etc, with rival fans, friends. I think the difference between the Scottish and the English fans is that the Scots don't consider themselves to be racially and culturally superior to everyone they play.

Subject: RE: BS: Turkey v England in Istanbul
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 08:28 AM

Ard, your prejudice and intransigence in the face of reason are breathtaking. With a nickname like yours, it's no surprise. I regard myself as a decent and civilised Englishman, and I've tried to put forward a reasoned and reasonable view that's echoed by the majority of English fans (the REAL Football fans - not the pisshead louts who just pose as fans) who are like me, but you refuse to listen and you continue to rant and rail and trot out meaningless and unprovable BS. You claim the moral high ground, but you're just as full of racist hatred as those you decry. Knock it off mate.

Big Tim, you're absolutely right about the Scots fans' improved behaviour but you've jumped on Ard's racist bandwagon in your final comment. I'd ask you to look at my post of 15/10 - I don't consider myself racially or culturally superior to people of ANY nation, and there's a lot more like me.

Alanabit - I salute you as another voice of sanity and reason. Good on yer mate.

Now I really am out of this for good.