BS: political correctness

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 12:41 PM

And Peron

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 11:14 AM

Robin,

'Woperone' can't be pc either 'cos it's got 'wop' in it!

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 01:55 PM

But, Little Hawk, you just said "our recorded history " - and I took that as meaning any kind of record. Goes a lot wider than the stuff that gets written up in history books.

I just think a lot of this nonsense probably goes back a lot further than that. Doesn't mean it's not nonsense, and it doesn't mean we have to give up on getting rid of it. We humans can be capable of changing quite drastically. But I feel we have to recognise we are dealing with something with pretty deep roots.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 12:58 AM

There are any number of female versions of womanizer: slut, tramp, tart, ho, hoochie, floozie, slag, chippie. They all mean a woman who has sex with lots of men, and none of them are a said in kindness. The only synonym I can think of for womanizer is tomcat.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 10:53 PM

McGrath - I could give you an extensive and voluminous answer to where we get that information from (outside of the conventional historical record), but I'm not going to. I don't have enough endurance for that particular discussion tonight. Let's just say it's a sleeping dog and let it lie... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 11:05 AM

Back in the late 1970's I came across this one ...

Woman is not PC because it contains "man" which is male...

----> man to person

--->>> Woperson

Wait, Woperson cannot be PC, as it contains "son" which is male...

-----> son to one

---->>>> Woperone

:-)

I think it was in the Uni Qld Student paper, which was then reasonably good...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 10:36 AM

When Mrs Brown chairs the meeting that means Mrs Brown is in the chair. Having the chair in the chair is one chair too many.

"The chair tabled the motion..."

Edward Lear comes to mind:

Said the Table to the Chair,
"You can hardly be aware,
How I suffer from the heat,
And from chilblains on my feet!
If we took a little walk,
We might have a little talk!
Pray let us take the air!"
Said the Table to the Chair.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:09 AM

I've always got round the Chair-man-woman-person problem by referring to them as "the chair" - mind you with some of the committees I've had experience of, the piece of furniture itself was probably as astute as the person sitting on it.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: muppett
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:04 AM

being PC what's it all about, my skin is brown in colour, I hate being told I'm black,I'm Just Muppett, my parents, grand parents, great grand parents, great, great grand parents came from all parts of the world, I hate being told I'm mixed race. A number of people think they are offending me calling me Muppett, in an attempt at PC, I once recieved a letter addressed to me as Mr. M.UPPETT, I'm Muppett by name, Muppett by nature as many people who know will vouch for this. Yes there are times when being careful with your choice of words, but come on changing the name of a blackboard, not singing Bar Bar Black sheep, What'll be next Personchester instead of Manchester.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 06:28 AM

So it's been "chairwoman" since the 17th century. Why change it now?

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 04:19 AM

For another opinion about the etymology of chairman click here

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Leo Condie
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 03:31 AM

CLIVE:
..... I want to tell you a story. There's this bloke, and he's Irish and he's Jewish and he's Pakistani and he's stupid and he's lost his teeth .....
DEREK:
Ahh-hugh-ho-ho!
CLIVE:
..... and all his h-, all his hair fell out .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
Oh-hoo! And .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... all his hair fell out .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... and his legs fell off .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... and, er, .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo! Oh-
CLIVE:
..... his, his, his cock got sliced off by a lawn mower!
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
And he said, oh-hoo, .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... he said, "I'm not feeling too well."
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
And this black bloke came round and said to him, .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... "If you're not feeling well, .....
DEREK:
Oh-hoo!
CLIVE:
..... you should see how I'm feeling!"
DEREK:
Ohhhhhhhh!!!!!
CLIVE:
Ohhhhhhhhhh!!!!! That's Alfie Noakes folks!

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 09:45 PM

greg stephens >> McGrath: are you going to explain why "manhole" is not politically incorrect, because "man" in that context means "person"; but on the other hand in "chairman" the "man" implies "female".


Sorry, this assumption is not correct - this is an invaild assumption about origin of the word "chairman"

In the word "chairman" man comes from

mannus = the hand

thus it is the chair of the hand guiding the meeting.

Has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with man/woman

If we don't know the Greek and Latin roots of word in modern English, and which one to apply in which case, our ignorance will feed our confusion.

So we need knowledge.

And where do you get this knowledge?

From the cursed Academics, who have it all "writted on a piece of paper" to quote Spike Milligan :-) (entymolgoical dictionaries!)


I'm not an expert in Latin and Greek roots - when I went to primary school, it was part of the compulsory education process in the 1950's - I have NEVER regretted this part of my education - in the later "reforms" that crippled education, this sort of knowledge was deemed irrelevant or confusing and swept aside. This reponse and the orignal post that triggered it show the sort of confusion that ignorance or what then becomes "hidden knowledge" (arcane!) causes.

I never could understand why - sort of like teaching inorganic chemistry, but refusing to first give the student a basic grounding in the theory of moelcular structure or discrete atomic theory.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 07:06 PM

The female equivalent of a man being uxorious (excessively submissive or devoted to one's wife) is married, according to male egos.

The feminine equivalent of a weomanizer is a lass who is round at heel, or perhaps a ****teaser...or a nymphomaniac.

A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:14 PM

That nonsense started with the onset of the patriarchal age (which is about all our recorded history knows about).

So if there's no record of it, how can we tell it started then?

My understanding is that cultures around the world vary in a much more complicated way that is implied in terms like "the patriarchal age". There's enormous variance in these kinds of things between cultures which in quite a lot of other ways would appear very comparable.

.......

Interesting that in English there doesn't appear to be any female equivalent of "uxorious". And the other odd thing about that word is that it seems generally to be used with a slightly pejorative tone.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:05 PM

In keeping with the spirit of the title of this thread, a lot of men have gotten rich and made good money selling tampons and kotex.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 05:32 PM

Yep. That's true. That nonsense started with the onset of the patriarchal age (which is about all our recorded history knows about). The patriarchs were afraid of the power in women. They ought better to have revered it than suppressed it, but they were an insecure bunch, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 05:27 PM

LH, generally I agree with you except the stigma about a woman's "moontime" was prevelant long before modern times. A lot of cultures considered it a curse, an unclean time and some still do.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 04:36 PM

I think the traditional counterpart of the "womanizer" is the "maneater", isn't it? (not to be interpreted literally...)

A woman is a man blessed with the ability to bring forth a child. This made women very sacred beings in most traditional cultures, and is one reason why men were seen as more expendable, and were exposed to greater physical risk in hunting and in war (women are certainly capable of both activities).

From there, people have gone to the crassness of modern society where a woman is seen as less valuable because her period may cause her to miss a couple of days of work a month...or other such lines of materialistic reasoning.

This is the decline of the sacred into the mundane, and it doesn't speak well for modern society.

In other areas, though, there have been significant improvements in the lot of women too, so it's not all bad by any means.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 02:31 PM

When it comes to understanding what someone is actually saying, what matters is what it means to that person. When it comes to arguments about etymology - eg whether "man" should be read as being about gender or species in a particular word or phrase, the history of the word becomes relevant.

So it's helpful to recognise that sometimes when some perople say "bad", they mean "good". But when it comes to deciding which sense of the word should be the default meaning, so to speak, the older meaning comes into its own.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 12:29 PM

Got it in one, Greg. Well, it's not as calculated as that, but true enough. But I think it's normally fairly clear from the context which way I'm intending it.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:18 AM

McGarth: sometimes when you say a word "means" something, you use it in the sense of"what the word means nowadays". But on other occasions, if it suits your argument, you use "means" in the sense of "well, it may not mean that now, but it used to a couple of hundred years ago, or at least I think it did". Makes you a little hard to pin down, on occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:02 AM

Along those lines, you always hear about men being "womanizers" which to me is being accused of loving pussy.

But women never get accused of being "man-izers."

So, in my most politically incorrect way, I ask you, why the fuck not?

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 07:01 AM

Not too sure there, Greg, and I could be etymologically wrong. But I suppose it's because "chairman" sounds analogous to other words such as "horseman" where, so far as I know, the use of the accompanying term "horsewoman" long predates these linguistics controversies. Spo far as I kniow it's never been customary to call women riders "horsemen".

It tends to end up sounding daft either way. You had people at the recent Tory party conference addressing the lady in the chair as "Mr Chairman", but what do you expect with Tories? But does "Mrs Chairman" sound any better? However "Mrs Chair" sounds even dafter. "Mr Bedside Table"..."Mrs Television set"... I think on balance Chairwoman has a lot to recommend it.

It goes the other way too - you have absurdities like male midwives being called something else, in spite of the fact that the wife bit there doesn't refer to the midwife at all, but to the women giving birth (and it doesn't mean "wife" in our modern sense either, butjust "woman".)

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:36 AM

I have used the term 'Madam Chairman' when it was (to my mind) appropriate. I was prepared to argue, but no-one else was, including the lady concerned, who had no sexist axe to grind.

In my youth, Negros were known, there and then, as 'Spades.' Not because of 'calling a spade...' but 'Black as the Ace of..' Just thought you should know that out of interest, and because Early's opening post reminded me of it.

Yes, PC has gone a LOT too far, but it doesn't seem to have extended to Christianity here in NZ, oddly enough. Adverts on TV have been taken off because they could be interpreted as having reference to certain eastern creeds, but other adverts depicting cassocked service celebrants turning somersaults backed by alter-boy chorus (Bell tea)
and singing uniformed evangelist types (can't remember the product)have been played ad nauseum. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:07 AM

& of course this also brings into the pc controversy the very title 'Mastermind'.

Should it be 'Personmind'?

Personally I don't mind!! *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:05 AM

On the TV quiz 'Mastermind' this week, one of the questions was,
'a famous actor was christened Krishna Banji, how is he more better known ?'



Answer:Ben Kingsley.

'was christened' ??

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 04:11 AM

McGrath: are you going to explain why "manhole" is not politically incorrect, because "man" in that context means "person";but on the other hand in "chairman" the "man" implies "female". What is the distinction you are making here, and what is the linguistic background? Or to phrase it in a diffeerent way, I think you're talking bollix.(On this specific point only, I hasten to add).

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 12:56 AM

Wwolfgang, it is my understanding from what I've heard first-hand, read, or seen in documentaries that Indians/Native Americans actually can have several names in their lifetimes and some of those are given. I saw an author on the tv the other night, describing how his parents took him to Devil's Tower as a baby and how the tribe then gave him a name reflecting that journey early in his life.

I don't like "have a nice day" that much either as it is so vacuous and usually said without thought, BUT I've never thought of it as politically correct. It's always seemed like a marketing thing to me...be nice to the customers, wish them well even if they don't like it.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 11:08 PM

Hey, SOMEBODY's gotta do it, right...??? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 09:18 PM

Now if the Navy has a list of "Unauthorised Ethinc Slurs", it implies a list of "Authorised Ethinc Slurs" .... ???? :-)

And now I notice that the US Army in Iraq is kindly writing home on behalf of the soldiers praising Bush's Policies... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 08:40 PM

I'd think in "chairman", "man" doesn't actually have the generic meaning. Do properly it ought to be chairman or cahirwoman according to who is in the chair.

In Rights of Man and Manhole Cover it does of course mean human being.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:41 PM

I still say "chairman". Those who don't like it can go climb a cactus. I consider a woman who is "chairing" a meeting to be the chairman of the meeting, okay? A chair is something people sit on, and you cannot chair something. It's not a verb. (This is just my version of English...feel free to use a different one if you like.)

Man is a generic term meaning human being...it is not necessarily the opposite of "woman", although it can be in a certain context. Male is the opposite of female.

The "rights of man", for example, means the rights of all people.

Hey, GUEST Martin Gibson...How are you? Oh, and have a nice day... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:29 PM

...and I won't be reconstructed,
And I DO not give a damn!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:28 PM

Well with my usual South Welsh 'Bloody Mindedness' I try to counter extream PC.

But abusive/offensive comment I will try to avoid - Unless its neccessary. (My defenition of neccessary !)

But circumlocations I will go out of my way to avoid.

Sorry - but thats me - I will not rename Manchester Personchester, and I can vouch for this being said at a Labour Party meeting at Canterbury. And as far as I am concerned a Ship" is her !

A unrepentant Gareth

And I'll stick to "Chair" rather than "Chairperson"

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:23 PM

Now Steve, you ain't seen me half started as far as hot under the collar goes. I was just chivvying Mister Gibson a tad. When people ask me how I am doing, I usually stop for a split second to determine whether they mean anything by it. If they do, I tell them accordingly. If they only mean a little bit, that's what they get. And so on.

A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Steve-o
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:16 PM

MG, with every post I like you better. Ya got ol' Amos hot under the collar about "Have a nice day"! I usually say, "Maybe", just to confuse them, rather than what I'm thinking ("I got your nice day, right here!"). I figure I'm following in Pete Seeger's footsteps- he said he got so sick of people automatically saying "How are you?" that he always answered, "Struggling". I really loved that recent commercial where all the New York City boneheads in a bar are saying, "Howya dooin', howya dooin'" to each other, and then the "rube" from out of town proceeds to actually tell the guy how he is doing. "Well, I'm doing just fine, thanks for asking...you know, I got up this morning and the weather was so nice, and then.....bla bla bla."   Totally boggles their "minds".

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:14 PM

Well, people better stop referring to hamsters as "dust bugs" and "furballs" or there's going to be big trouble around here!

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Burke
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:00 PM

In the US, 'Christian' is hardly ever used. If it is you could get a strange look, like you're referring to a some special Catholic name. Alternatives: first name, given name, forename, personal name.

I haven't heard the term Dago in a long time. I did hear it more when I was younger. It was not in joking or fun terms, it was a pejorative. Maybe it's been unused long enough to revive as more lighthearted, but I'm not too sure.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Blowzabella
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:43 PM

I think we ought to accept that some of the 'offences' caused happen through ignorance not deliberate callousness. A lot of instances, such as McGrath describes (whom I believe to be a man of great taste and principle, since he is a New Scorpion Band fan) can come out of habit, more than anything - using the term Christian name, as an example, is a bit like using the term Hoover, rather than vacuum cleaner - it has been 'marketed' so well, that it has become part of our vocabulary, as simply meaning a persn's first name, nothing more - the UK is hardly renowned as being a hotbed of Christian radicalism. Only in the culture of political correctness, is it seen as being more than what it is - imprecise use of language and when we read in the news that a good proportion of our schoolleavers cannot read or write effectively, why are we surprised at this.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:40 PM

Christian name means the name was given at some kind of Christening ceremony, not that the person involved is any kind of practising Christian. There are Christians who don't go in for Christenings, and technically at least it'd be wrong to refer to their names as Chrustian names.

It's not just about hurting people's feelings, it's also about using language accurately.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:01 PM

Well we definitely agree on those examples McGtath. I was very specific about the Christian name example: I was referring to an attempt to stop people using the term to refer to their own first names, not to other people's.I solidly stand by my right to refer to Greg as my Christian name(though I'm not a Christian,as it happens!).

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:59 PM

"Given name" preferable? You wouldn't want to hurt the feelings of Native Americans for whom, as one of them once told me, a name is not given but 'found'.
Whatever you do and how carefully you watch your steps, there'll be always someone who claims that his or her toes have been under your feet.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:14 PM

I take it that these are all things that have happened to your knowledge, rather than being versions of things that happened to a friend of a friend.

Obviously I'd call them all daft - and I'd be very suspicious of the intentions of anyone who tried to impose those kind of rules. My suspicion would be that they had some kind of dodgy agenda. They might for example be trying to ridicule the notion that words can hurt. Or it might be a ploy in some kind of office politics - "I'll show them I'm in charge".

So far as Christian names go, obviously it is not a good idea to ask someone what their Christian name is unless you have some reason to believe that they were actually Christened - even aside from any possible question of offence, for example to someone who might be a Moslem or Jew, it's a nonsensical use of the term. Like asking an unmarried person for their married name. "First name" or prerably "given name" (allowing for the fact that given names aren't always first names, especially with Chinese people) is a better expression to use when asking questions. But obviously nobody has any business to tell someone they shouldn't use the expression when referring to their own names.

If the expression "politically incorrect" were ever a term worth using, it'd be appropriate to use it of the kind of petty tyranny and bigotry demonstrated in such episodes.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:59 PM

Well, M G, you do tend to be kinda adversarial and are often exceeding angry, it seems to me. You might notice that at the very least, they who wish you a nice day care enough to offer a token of manners. That's worth something. You want deep truth from your grocery-bagger? Dramatized nihilism to demonstrate integrity? It wouldn't work, I promise!!

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:57 PM

Some time ago I posted a comment here about the socialist agenda of a certain academic. I was immediately attacked on the grounds that my objections were due to her gender.

If you are female it appears to be PC to be a sexist bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:42 PM

I object to "have a nice day" with a big yellow smiley face, or a store clerk who doesn't even know me or could care less.

Empty sayings are no where as effective as telling someone to "eat shit and die" when you really mean it.

Saying "have a nice day" just to be politically correct and polite when one doesn't really mean it or could care less, kind of makes me want to puke.

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:21 PM

McGrath: you try to dismiss the "political correctness gone mad" stories as urban legends. Well, maybe a lot are. But there is a continuous stream of real examples, which it is worth keeping an eye on. here is a sample of undoubtedly true ones.Preventing people using the term "manhole covers". Writing a letter to the mother of a boy with learning difficulties,asking for him to be prevented from humming the tune to Baa Baa Black Sheep at a play group. Telling someone it is inappropriate to use the term "christian name", even when referring to their own first name.
   Where would you stand on those three examples? I absolutely find all three absurd, and also very dangerous. And I would unhesitaing use the term "political correctness" to indicate my contempt for people trying to impose rules like that. And no, I dont go around calling people mongs or niggers

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:14 PM

I ain't been hidin', Martin Gibson.

But it does seem odd to me that people who object to 'Have a nice day!' as a new age kind of thing, long ago have accepted '(Have a) Good night!') Or 'Goodbye' (God be wit' ye)

Subject: RE: BS: political correctness
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 03:48 PM

'Dago' has already been explained and analysed in this old thread.

Bottom line: the use as meaning 'Italian' dates back to 1870 though it originally has meant 'Spanish'.

Wolfgang