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Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway

Snuffy 16 Aug 17 - 01:43 PM
MMario 16 Aug 17 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,Tinker from Chicago 07 Aug 17 - 12:23 AM
Genie 18 Oct 11 - 05:43 AM
momnopp 06 Nov 03 - 09:32 PM
Ferrara 06 Nov 03 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,MMario 06 Nov 03 - 08:47 AM
GUEST 05 Nov 03 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,MMario 29 Oct 03 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,alanww (on Long Island with Barbara Hoffman) 29 Oct 03 - 04:00 PM
Charlie Baum 29 Oct 03 - 03:03 PM
Bill D 29 Oct 03 - 10:22 AM
momnopp 29 Oct 03 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,MMario 29 Oct 03 - 08:34 AM
Snuffy 29 Oct 03 - 05:48 AM
Tinker 28 Oct 03 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,MMario 28 Oct 03 - 08:39 AM
Roger in Baltimore 27 Oct 03 - 06:53 PM
alanww 27 Oct 03 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,GUEST 27 Oct 03 - 03:17 PM
Bill D 27 Oct 03 - 09:45 AM
karen k 27 Oct 03 - 01:41 AM
Bill D 26 Oct 03 - 10:37 PM
Bill D 26 Oct 03 - 10:34 PM
Jeri 26 Oct 03 - 09:22 PM
Barry Finn 26 Oct 03 - 08:10 PM
kendall 26 Oct 03 - 07:17 PM
SINSULL 26 Oct 03 - 07:07 PM
Susan A-R 26 Oct 03 - 05:23 PM
Alaska Mike 25 Oct 03 - 10:08 PM
GUEST,Kendall 25 Oct 03 - 09:25 PM
GUEST 25 Oct 03 - 09:23 PM
Bill D 25 Oct 03 - 08:07 PM
Ferrara 25 Oct 03 - 07:31 PM
Fortunato 25 Oct 03 - 05:10 PM
Tinker 25 Oct 03 - 04:20 PM
Dani 25 Oct 03 - 10:27 AM
Charley Noble 25 Oct 03 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,Lorraine 25 Oct 03 - 09:07 AM
Joe Offer 25 Oct 03 - 03:52 AM
Tinker 24 Oct 03 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,MMario 24 Oct 03 - 01:47 PM
Tinker 24 Oct 03 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,MMario 24 Oct 03 - 01:26 PM
Janie 24 Oct 03 - 12:58 PM
Bill D 24 Oct 03 - 12:18 PM
GutBucketeer 24 Oct 03 - 12:16 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 03 - 11:44 AM
Dani 24 Oct 03 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,MMario 24 Oct 03 - 10:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:43 PM

My, what wonderful memories have been brought back by reading this revived thread. But also great sadness that some whom we met there have now gone to that great singaround in the sky.

No longer can we sing with the likes of Barry Finn, Mary LaMarca, Karen Kobela, Colin Kemp or Theresa Tooley. (And I guess there are more of whose passing I am not aware).

Tonight I shall raise a glass to the memory of them all, and to the precious times we had together.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: MMario
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 09:00 AM

Sorry Brian.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,Tinker from Chicago
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 12:23 AM

Well, I realize I'm over a decade late, but I just found this and I need to correct the lyrics given here as my song "Grania." What MMario posted in 2003 is inaccurate. The second part of the first verse is:
        Yet you dare to claim my land with your laws and your demands,
        and you smite us like a galley smites the foam.
        Know your place, my lady Bess;
        who are you to dispossess Irish chieftains
        from their fathers' fathers' home?

And in the second verse it should be "in Connaught I am queen," not "in Connaught Grania's queen."

Thank you.

Brian Leo


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Genie
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 05:43 AM

Bob Clayton and Pete Kraemer did this song at the 2011 FSGW Getaway Sunday night concert. I hope to have the video posted shortly, with their permission.

Genie


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: momnopp
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 09:32 PM

Glad this thread popped up again -- I was supposed to remember not to forget...um...something...I think it was important...


Oh, yeah!

A link to the words for the John McCutcheon patter that Dylan recited at the Saturday night concert. It's called "Hail to the Chief" look here and search for the MP3 and/or the lyrics.

I adore John McCutcheon -- that reminds me of something else! I have to go check out whether I can still get tickets to see him at Institute of Musical Traditions in a couple of weeks! Yippie!!!!

:-D

JudyO


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Ferrara
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 04:13 PM

The lady who wrote and sang the Street Vendors song in the sunday concert is Andy Cooper of the Baltimore Folklore Society. Marvelous song.

Gail Snider sang Second Hand Rose in the concert too. And Ron Davies and Jan Talton did another great patter on "It's a Sin to Tell a Lie," don't know if Ron mentioned it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 08:47 AM

as I re-read this - It's amazing how much I *missed*!!!! Definately need a clonign workshop in the future.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 09:27 PM


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 04:08 PM

wondered what the "notes" were I seemed to keep seeing you take!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,alanww (on Long Island with Barbara Hoffman)
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 04:00 PM

Hi again, Bill D
Yes, alphabetical order! But only because I have such a bad memory for what I or other people at folk weekends have sung that I routinely tick them off my song list (or cross them off if someone else has sung a song that I could sing). Hence I just ran down my list for the ticks ... !
Anyway, I enjoyed so many songs and was particularly taken by the enormous range of Barry Finn's songs. Brill!
"I had a dream the other night ...!"
Alan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 03:03 PM

My list of things I remember singing at the Getaway (though I imagine I probably sang other things informally in small groups as well):

Anderson's Coast (by John Warner, learned from Danny Spooner)--Friday evening singaround

Yedid Nefesh (words by Rabbi Eliezer Azikri [15th century]--two different settings, in Hebrew)--Songs in 3/4 time

Fountain Filled With Blood (by Joan Boyd, from the singing of Helen Schneyer)--Occupational Hazards (or was it at Problematic Change?--something at the Theatre Barn)

Federal Soldier (from the singing of Ruth Pershing, who attributes it to Maggie Hammons)--Immigrants and Emigrants

Land of Virginia (Robert Burns)--Immigrants and Emigrants

Delia's Gone (my own version, based loosely on Tim Eriksen's version)--Ballads I

Shto mi e Milo (Bulgarian song)--with Carly Gewirz at Saturday night concert

"She took him by the bridle hair" (a version of Child #299, Trooper and the Maid)--from the singing of C.C. "Lum" Pack of Mingo County, WV by way of the singing of Helena Triplett, now of Monongalia County, WV)--Ballads II

Tsangala da gogona (trad. Georgian)--Foreign languages

Pharaoh (from the singing of Mrs. Sidney Carter of Senatobia, Miss.)--Sunday evening concert

Kitty Alone ("Saw a crow flying low") (from the singing of Howie Mitchell)--Sunday evening singaround

Ax Aunt Dinah (version of Lazarus ballad [Southern U.S.] from Georgia Sea islands)--Sunday evening singaround

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 10:22 AM

ah, Snuffy...sometimes we NEED a song like that to bring us back to reality. I can't imagine matching a song like Barry's easily, and connections like that are what make this amazing community special *grin*...(remember, at Judy's the discussion with alanww about "thinking in straight lines"?)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: momnopp
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 10:13 AM

Guest, guest

I believe her first name is Andi and she also did a (different) number at the Sunday night concert...I will try to find out what her last name is...

JudyO


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:34 AM

more connection between songs then some I've made!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 05:48 AM

I sang about 30, but there's some I wish I hadn't! Did I REALLY follow Barry Finn's great rendition of Bellman with Old Shep, just because they both have the line "He's gone where the good doggies go"? MEGACRINGE!!!!!

WassaiL! V


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Tinker
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 09:19 AM

But he also gives good hugs...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 08:39 AM

m'gawd! alanww alphabetized his list!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 06:53 PM

Guest Guest,

I heard this lady sing, also, but it was at some other workshop. Runny song!

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: alanww
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 05:32 PM

Hi All
I am at Tinker's with five of the Shellbacks, so only a quick post. But just to get them on the list, I sang:
Ale, Ale Glorious Ale
April morning
Cadgwith Anthem
Constant Lovers
Country Life
Goodbye Dolly Gray
John Dead
Lark in the Clear Air
Leaving of Liverpool
Legger's Song
Limehouse Reach
Linden Lea
Look at the Coffin
My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean
Over the Hills and FarAway
Parting Glass
Row On
Sailor's Prayer
Sons ofthe Sea
Twanky Dillo
Had pleanty of chance to sing, staying up to 3am+ every night, Wow! What an event! I will be back!
"As I was a-walking down by the sea shore ...!"
Alan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 03:17 PM

A lovely lady sang a very funny "sea shantey" in the humorous songs workshop about a mother's threat to get rid of her kids junk.   Does anyone know the lyrics?

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 09:45 AM

Indeed you were, Karen...but not all my brain was..*grin*..I'd list everything else I forgot to mention, but,,,um,,,I forgot (it was fun, though)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: karen k
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 01:41 AM

Hey, Bill, I was there, too!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 10:37 PM

...and Noreen! (She and Barbr'y and Snuffy and Ferrara and Judy Cook were still trading ballads at 1AM) After all, THEY didn't have to drive on Wed. morning!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 10:34 PM

most of the Shellbacks were still singing strongly Tuesday night! amazing and wonderful and fun..*grin*...and they know such a great variety. Snuffy and Alanww and Barbr'y and.....I hope some of them post to this thread when they get home..


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 09:22 PM

My voice is usually shot by Sunday night. I was a little hoarse on Monday, but still could have sung some more. I did NOT have a cold this year at any time during the Getaway, and what I thought was the beginning of a cold after I got home was just allergies.

I did "Won't You Help Me to Raise 'Em" too, and something else in Mick's car on one of the Beer Treks. Mostly, I did choruses. Barry, you're gonna have to learn a few songs!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 08:10 PM

These are what I can remember singing. Unlike the songs I couldn't remember but tried to sing.


Sioux Indians - pioneer ballad

Virginia Lags - transportation ballad

Walker of the Snow (Shadow Hunter) – words by Charles D Shanly, tune by Sean Tyrell)

Schooner Industry – Jerry Bryant found this from the log of the schooner industry 1822
       music by & chorus by Neil Downey

Yankzee River Shanty – words by Hamish Maclaren 1930, music by Charley Noble

Roller Bowler - shanty

London Julies (Juliana) - shanty

Johnnie Come Down to Hilo - shanty

These Ol Walls – by Barry Finn

Bellman – British hunting

Linin' Track - Railroad/Prison work song

Ol Dollar Mamie – prison work song

South Wind - Irish

A Stor Mo Chroi – Irish

Lambs on the Green Hills – Irish, version of "I Once Love a Lass" family

Reilly – slave song /log loading shanty form Georgia Sea Islands

Hell of a Wedding on the Congo River – rowing shanty from West Indies

Rosieanna – Menhaden Fisheries, net hauling

Hard Times in Ol Virginia - slave song & shanty

Pay Me My Money Down – Georgia Sea Islands

Jack in the Green – Martin Graebe (1972)

Ranzo Rae – shanty

Edie – prison holler

Priest & Nuns – pumping shanty

Rollin Down the Bay to Juliana – shanty

Louise – by Paul Siebel

Battle of Pea Ridge – civil war, tune originally from St. Clair's Defeat, revolutionary war

Far Away in Australia – Traditional

Claudy Banks – collected in Maine by Dick Swain & Jeff Davis


Hi Ron, don't think you were alone in the "losing voice chorus". I was shocked that I could even hold a tune by Sunday night, so I figured well, I didn't completely lose it this song I'll try to kill it on the next one. I noticed that the Shellbacks did keep singing though out the whole time & they only seemed to get better. By Monday I could barely talk.


Barry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: kendall
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 07:17 PM

hehehe


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 07:07 PM

Kendall,
I accept your "opology" but an apology was in order. Leave me home indeed. You cantankerous old goat! Harumph!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Susan A-R
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 05:23 PM

Mike, I'm with MMario, a song book is in order.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:08 PM

I sang a bunch of songs that I wrote:
Little Jim
Pint of Your Beer
Free Walter
Wilderness Letters
First Kill
Evil Freddy
Iditarod
Sailor's Lament
Feeling Like a Rock
All My Troubles Go By
Traveling Marilyn
Carhartts
Clipper Ship
Johnny Come and Do
Whiskey John
William Wallace
Pete
Sad Eyes
High Country
Salmon Love
Highway of Dreams
Trailer Park Song
Morris the Moose
Rainy Day Blues

I know I sang a bunch of songs that I didn't write also, but these are the ones I can remember. I only wish I could have remembered all the lyrics to them while actually singing.

We had a blast at our first getaway and hope we can come back another time and do it again. Thanks to everyone there for making it so special.

Mike


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 09:25 PM

Sorry, that was me.

I sang the Blizzard in Mary's Tear Jerker workshop.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 09:23 PM

Sinsull, if you had done it right, I would have kept quiet! And, if we were married, I would have left you home!

Seriously, I had never heard it done that way, and I learned that song before you were born. But, you sing it your way and I'll sing it mine. Ok?
I now opologize in public for interrupting you. That was not called for.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 08:07 PM

oh, yeah! I ALSO sang "Black Waters" with autoharp, at Mining songs!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Ferrara
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 07:31 PM

Joe, that was probably Noreen Keene singing "Shule Aroon" (pardon the spelling.) She sang it with David Scheim's harp Sunday night, that was something to hear.

I am much too lazy to post all these words but as far as I can remember I sang:

Ballads I: "A Soldier Traveling From the North." Appalachian ballad learned from Sheila Kaye Adams, a version of The Soldier and the Maid. I'm told CHarlie Baum sang a different Appalachian version in Ballads II, wish I had heard it but went off to Pub Sing 'cause my son and Lorraine's son were leading it.

Gospel: "Linda's Promise," a song I wrote. A tribute and memorial for FSGW member Linda Lieberman. I would like to post the words but it won't be any time soon because I want to create a midi of the tune to go with.

"Molly Bender" in Ballads II. Another Appalachian song, learned from singing of Helen Stover of West Virginia.

Pub Sing: "Three Jolly Fishermen," a Yorkshire song, learned from Ye Mariners All. Alanww gave me another verse, too. Wonderful harmonies from the Shellback contingent, thank you.

Also sang "The Man Who Waters the Workers' Beer." Words are already in the DT I believe -- where do you think I learned them? Thanks to Fortunato, one night at the Royal Mile Pub Sing, for telling me this was originally a Wobblies song.

Jean Ritchie's "Black Waters" Sunday, late night.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Fortunato
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 05:10 PM

I heard Miss Dani sing 'Matchbox Blues'...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Tinker
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 04:20 PM

Dani, if Dick doesn't jump in I could try to transcribe. Just remind me okay. I want to get out Rick's copies first.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Dani
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:27 AM

Thanks for reminding me, Lorraine. That was nice. You don't often hear such heartfelt songs about friends, and how nice to honor a friend in that way!

I wanted to ask if anyone (or himself, if he be around) knows the beautiful song that Dick Levine (I think) sang to his wife at that concert. There was hardly a dry eye in the house. That was a moment of purest love that all aspire to. I'd love to learn the song.

The tv room was so nice for the concert. Granted, many more could not have been accommodated, but the intimacy and coziness was just right. Those of us who are not performers are sometimes wary of the stage, mikes, etc in the gym, though it's a pleasure to watch other folks in that setting.

Dani


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:21 AM

Were there any songs from "A Mighty Wind"?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,Lorraine
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 09:07 AM

There was so much wonderful wonderful singing that I too was drawn into glorious chorus singing for the most part. I lead a few.
A Starry Night to Ramble;
Drink to the Laddies written by Sue West (a former Getaway attendee who has moved to Maine);
Lament for Hull Trawlers;
Fair Fanny Moore;
Isabella Gunn;
Thaney;

I do wish I had recorded the wonderful song about friedship sung in the Sunday night concert with part of the refrain "you laugh at my jokes " it was beautifully performed and wonderful sentiments.

What a lovely lovey time. Thanks to all. Lorraine


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 03:52 AM

Earlier today, when MMario was a little calmer, he mentioned that somebody sang "Suil A Ruin." I was sitting next to the singer, but I can't remember who she was. She did a lovely job. Anybody know who sang it at the Getaway?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Tinker
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 02:22 PM

Mario, It's on video and I bet you can get a copy....I was watching it today.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 01:47 PM

AAARRRGGGHHHHH! I have a new voice recorder - and I played with it a few times during the getaway...one of the (few) good tracks I had was Mick singing 'boston Beauty' and I JUST DELETED IT!!!!

WOE!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Tinker
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 01:36 PM

Allan first did in the Mudcat cabin in 2001. He actually got the entire cabin to go to bed at the same time after the song ended. Powerful stuff.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 01:26 PM

hmmm- didn't see mention of that last year - I'm glad, actually - as it would have made me more frustrated.

Now comes the time


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Janie
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 12:58 PM

One song I wish I had found the opportunity to sing (I had told Allan C. I would and then didn't *blush*) was the song he wrote and we sang at the end of last year's Getaway "Now Comes the Time"

Sorry Allan--this was a year of choruses and not many singarounds outside of the workshops. Guess you and Terri will have to get your tails over here for the next one--and sing it yourself!

Janie


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 12:18 PM

"you should hear Brian Leo do it!"..
no...we did fine. We'd rather issue compliments to out friends in this thread. MMario does it like Dani says...*smile*


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 12:16 PM

I sang "Singing In the Bathtub" in the Musichall Workshop. The lyrics and chords are here:

Lyr Add: Singing in the Bathtub - Jugband

I would sure like to get a list of the rest of the songs and authors that were sung in the Music Hall Workshop.

I can remember:

After the Ball
Bobbing Up & Down Like This
Come, Come, Come and Make Eyes At Me At The Old Bull And Bush
Hard Times (not the Stephen Foster Song!)

JAB


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 11:44 AM

you should hear Brian Leo do it!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: Dani
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 11:26 AM

Mmario, I would very much like to learn Brian the King. Then I'll sing it for YOU, but not nearly as well. It gives me goosebumps to hear you do it!

Dani


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs you sang at the Getaway
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:29 AM

y'know - one of the "high" points for me was to have people join in on songs - because so much of my repetoire is *NOT* chorus songs, or well known. That's partly why I learn them in the first place (because I want to have something to sing that isn't done by "everybody" and - heck - as far as chorus songs go - there are tons of much better song leaders then I to lead them...)

I figure another couple of repetitions and I'll get people belting out the chorus of "Brian the King" with me - they are starting to sing it already; and standing at the "focus" in the TV room and hearing the "Pull Boys Pull" come back at me during 'Carteghena' was incredible!

[of course what I am really waiting for is the day I hear a song I wrote being done by someone else *grin*]

But the true joys of something like the Getaway or Old Songs is, for me, being able to listen to the incredible music - vocal and/or instrumental, to JOIN with others in the choruses and singing - to hear verses I've never heard before - or new songs -

hmmmmm - this probably should have gone in the other thread - but I'm too lazy to cut and paste it at this point.


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