Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 12:17 AM

Mudcat's own "Lighter", no less (see above), unless the late hour has quite confused me. Perhaps he will comment.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: s&r
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:16 AM

'Fey' other-worldly, elfin, clairvoyant

Stu

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 05:43 PM

Hi, Malcolm & Azizi. There's nothing wrong with the word "tromp." What's not recommended is doing it to alligators.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 08:43 AM

Wayne, that first verse is commonly known in England as part of Not For Joe. See these threads for more details:

ADD: Not For Joseph (Not for Joe)
Lyr Req: om si the gom
Lyr Req: Not For Joe

All Hail The Power Of Jesus' Name was a staple of boozy student/Rugby club singing in the late 60s early 70s, but we never used Polly Wolly Doodle. We used the proper hymn tune, but after the first verse sang a couple of verses of I Tawt I Taw A Puddytat instead

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Kaleea
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 07:35 PM

I originally learned this song from my grandparents of Irish ancestry who lived in eastern Oklahoma. They were originally from Arkansas. There were several "old timey" songs which my cousins & I learned from them that they said they had sung as kids, which certainly could have been a generalization.
   However, when I sometimes accompanied Granddad to the fishin' hole (in the very early 1960's), there were often a couple of gentlemen who fished just up the bank and were from a nearby black community. The two fellows were true gentlemen, and because I was a Music loving child, would always oblige when I requested that they sing. If I was really lucky, it would be a day when one of the gentlemen brought his old guitar, which he plunked as they sang. One of those songs was Polly Wolly Doodle. I no longer recall the differences, but I do recall that they sang a verse with the "n" word, which made me wide eyed as my mother would have washed out my mouth with Lava soap for using that word.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 08:26 PM

In the 1950s, the enlightened refered to the bugs as "Chegroes"

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:19 AM

It occurs to me as I read this thread that the fact that this song is first documented in Harvard or Yale songbooks does not mean that it is not of African American {Southern slaves] origin. First of all, some students attending Harvard and Yale during that time lived on plantations, were raised by African Americans, used to play with African Americans, and had otherwise had opportunities to hear African American singing.

Furthermore, I read {somewhere} that it was the practice of well to do Southern 'gentlemen' to bring at least one slave to the North with them to tend to their housekeeping needs. Therefore, students other than those coming from the South could have heard and documented that song.

****

Upthread, I note that Masuto had a post saying that the songs included in Talley's 1922 book Negro Folk Songs have no source. Talley, an African American professor at Fisk, indicated in his book that these rhymes were from his childhood memories as well as collected from his [African American] students. He also writes that many of these songs were very old..

Beyond that, no other sources are cited {for instance, Talley didn't say that x song was from y student from a specific state who heard the song in a specified year under specified circumstances. While these kind of demographics would have been great to have, I'm very grateful that Talley documented these songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:30 AM

dick greenhaus wrote that:

"In the 1950s, the enlightened refered to the bugs as "Chegroes"

-snip-

I'm not sure which prior post this comment refers to..[meaning what bugs were referred to by that name].

I was a kid in the 1950s and I never called any bugs "Chegroes".
Nor do I remember any one else doing so.

"Chegroes" sounds to me alot like "Negroes".

So if "the enlightened" refered to certain bugs as "Chegroes" it would seem to me that that would put into question the definition of who is [or was] "enlightened".

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: MissouriMud
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 04:21 PM

I'm assuming the reference was to "Chiggers" (being referred to as "chegroes" , although I dont know if that was serious or tongue in cheek). Chiggers are tiny nasty biting bugs that live in grass and shrubs in the south and midwest and I daresay many other parts of the US - they tend to make a series of bites in hard to get places that itch like crazy for days.

http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/hgic/diagn/pest/chigger.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 06:50 PM

MissouriMud,

The play on words gets worse and worser.

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 May 09 - 07:16 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrqfGqBA

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 May 09 - 05:43 AM

Does anyone know who wrote the Shirley Temple version?

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 May 09 - 09:41 AM

more lyrics to the tune http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioX5GN9kozY

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 May 09 - 09:58 AM

Dicho wondered:

Or would I be gastronomically correct (if incorrect in other ways) in saying polly wolly doodle was an indirect reference to the French?

Only if it was poached, in a light cheese sauce. Chopped parsley optional.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: ADD Version: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 06:21 PM

The version of "Polly Wolly Doodle" I recall most distinctly from childhood had the hated 'n' word in it, but as kids were blissfully unaware of how awful it was. However, I have a question about other parts of those lyrics that I'd like to ask in case someone out there knows. Here's what I DO remember after changing the hateful part to something socially acceptable:

POLLY WOLLY DOODLE

Well, I came to a river an' I couldn't get across
Sing Polly-Wolly Doodle all day
So I jumped on a pickle 'cause I thought it was a horse
Sing Polly-Wolly Doodle all day

CHORUS

Fare thee well! Fare thee well!
Fare thee well my fairy Faye
'Cause I'm goin' to Loosiana for to see my Susieanna
Sing Polly-Wolly Doodle all day

CHORUS

Oh the horse wouldn't run, so I traded for a gun
Sing Polly-Wolly Doodle all day
But the gun wouldn't shoot, so I trade for a boot
Sing Polly-Wolly Doodle all day

CHORUS

Oh the boot wouldn't wear, so I traded for a hare
Sing Polly-Wolly Doodle all day
But the hare wouldn't holler, so I trade for a dollar
Sing Polly-Wolly Doodle all day

CHORUS

But the dollar wouldn't pass, so I threw it in the grass
Sing Polly-Wolly Doodle all day
----- and here are where the lines go that I can't recall -----
----- any answers would be welcome. Thanks!! ------

FINAL CHORUS

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 07:20 PM

That's 'fairy fey.'

fey = having the air of one under a spell or doom, elfin, visionary

fairy = 1. fairy 2. white person

I don't see anything derogatory in simply saying farewell to a white person cause I'm goin to Lousiana.

Remember Morgan la Faye from the tales of King Arthur?

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 02:19 AM

I think it was the pickle that was objectionable...

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 06:24 AM

It's a euphemism

Subject: RE: Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 11 - 07:38 AM

I am so pleased with your writing about this well remembered folk song which is not so easy to sing. I don't remember who wrote this song but I think some of the words were written about the time of the US war in the 19 century. The first time I heard that tune was about the time I started school in 1986 but I didn't know what song one of my friends were singing. Many of my mates knew the tune but not as the song most folks know today. I also heard a thing that is a writing credited to Steven Foster on the song but even I know that is not true. I think Dan Emmett wrote some of the verses but not all. For all you folks who heard about the song and the names of who wrote it, you were very knowledgeable about some names of the writers. The writers may well never be found at all, but what you will find is more songs written to the same tune with names of difrent singers and writers the year they were written. The reason you it hard to find a proper name who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle is that the song could date back to the 1850s or before.

Subject: RE: Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 03:15 AM

how about changing nigger to ligger, so amended version could be "i looked for a ligger and i floated like a hoss"

Subject: RE: Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 10:44 AM

A guest with the unfortunate racist humor, who is gone, stated there is nothing wrong with the n-word. That is up for debate, certainly. Trouble is, "ligger" doesn't make any sense at all. I think if you're going to sing this song historically correct, you have to pull up your socks and sing it as it is, or not sing it at all.

Subject: RE: Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: GUEST,Guest David
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 11:46 AM

In his book, 'Shanties From The Seven Seas', p42, author Stan Hugill wrote, "My old shipmate. Jack Birch of Plymouth, gave me a sailor version of the old song, Polly Wolly Doodle, which he said he believed had been used as a shanty- and if this is so, then not only foreigners 'invented' shanties in modern times ! Many of the words in this song- Susiana, Fare-ye-well, doodle- have a genuine shanty touch."

Oh, we went up the Channel with a new main yard,
Ch. Singing skiddly , winkie, doodle all the day!
And it fell upon the deck an't it broke the skipper's neck,
Ch.Singing skiddly, winkie, doodle all the day!
Fare-ye-well, fare-ye-well, fare-ye-well my lady friend,
For we're bound to Alabama for to see me Susiana,
Singing skiddly, winkie, doodle all the day!

Subject: RE: Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 01:29 PM

ligger is a lump of wood look it up it makes perfect sense. dictionary defintion ligger (plural liggers). The horizontal timber of a scaffolding; a ledger. A simply supported plank over a stream used as a footbridge.

Subject: RE: Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 01:49 PM

Ah, well, I stand corrected. It is obscure, though.

Subject: RE: Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:24 PM

i would prefer enlightened to corrected , you are too pleasant to be corrected

Subject: RE: Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: GUEST,Bradley Hyde
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:05 PM

I found (and sang) this song from an old book at my grandma's house in Wisconsin. 1954, I was about 5. The lyrics with the n-word were there for sure -- likewise in a Boy Scout song book. I have a copy of "Heart songs-- Melodies of Days Gone By." (Songs dear to the American People) Initiated by the National Magazine. Contributed by 25,000 people. Copy write 1909 the Chapple Publishing Ltd. Boston, Mass, USA. In includes "Polly Wolly Doodle with no attribution given for tune or lyrics. Those who contributed songs gave their historical association with the song, but these were not published with the songs. Nicely, the book has photos of many popular singers of the day. This book has the lyrics with the n-word in verse 3 of 7. It includes the advise, "and so on, ad infin" after verse 7. My father (a British pastor) strongly discouraged us from singing the n-word.

Subject: RE: Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 10:00 AM

To sentimental Victorian poets a "fairy fay" literally meant a fairy, as in John Crawford's "Doric Lays" (1850), p. 77:

"Viewless forms of fairy fay
Lilt a winsome witching lay."

James Ballantine's "Poems" (1856), p 70:

"THE WEE, RAGGIT LASSIE ...

Thy form is licht as fairy fay."

and in L. S. Bevington's "Key-Notes" (1879), p. 70:

"THE SONG-BIRD, AND THE FAIRY ...
How shall it be, my fairy fay,
       When to-morrow we greet?"

In "PWD," in the spirit of writers like Ballantine, it means a delicate, "fairy-like" woman - amusingly undercut by her "curly eyes and laughing hair."

According to James R. Fuld's meticulously researched "Book of World-Famous Music," "PWD" first appeared in the Harvard song book in its 3rd ed. of 1883. Fuld writes specifically that "The song is not in the 1880 edition at HU [Harvard University], or 1881 edition at LC [the Library of Congress]."

It's mentioned earlier, however, in the student paper "Cornell Era" of Feb. 25, 1881, in a report on the "Engineers' Banquet" held on the 21st:

"Many songs were sung, some for the first time, and some very often. Some of the new ones were, 'Rank Tank,' 'Here’s to Elocution, for she holds
us in solution,' 'Engineers’ Te Deum,' 'The Noble Duke of York,' and “Polly Wolly Doodle.'"

Subject: RE: Origins: Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 24 - 03:40 AM

I heard a German song today that uses this melody: Hummel, Hummel, Hummel mit Humor. Anybody know the German song and how it's related to the American one?