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Subject: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:05 AM A Scottish singer at Our Monday session in Hertford sings Red River valley with a Gaelic chorus. He says he got it from his grandfather who had it from his father. This would suggest a non cowboy origin? Sweet smile, Keith. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: Hrothgar Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:10 AM More probably indicates that Gaels are thieves. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: sian, west wales Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:43 AM It was first noted down in Canada (Manitoba) in, I think, 1895. It is far more likely that it was heard, liked and translated by someone who had emmigrated there. This happened a lot with the Welsh, and there are a number of Welsh folk songs still popular which travelled back to the Old Country from North America. sian |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 03 - 06:46 AM The tune was used for "Take it Down from the Flag, Irish Traitors" in the Irish Civil War. But I doubt very much if it was an Irish tune to start with. Here's a page about the song: "...According to Carl Sandburg, this song originated as "In the Bright Mohawk Valley" (1896) and became "The Red River Valley" in the western United States and Canada." Canadian folk-lorist Edith Fowke shows "that it was known in at least five Canadian provinces before 1896, and was probably composed during the Red River Rebellion of 1870." And the people involved are probably Metis. (Some versions have "half-breed who loved you" rather than cowboy, and "dark maiden". So it likely has "a non-cowboy origin" anyyway, even if it's not Irish. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST Date: 21 Oct 03 - 07:04 AM i've heard Irish songs in English with similar lines |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 21 Oct 03 - 01:50 PM Given the form of the song, it would be surprising if parts of it were not reminiscent of other songs to be found in Ireland (or any English-speaking country); that doesn't really get us anywhere. Neither, I think, does immediately starting to talk about Ireland whenever Gaelic is mentioned; the question here relates, it would appear, to Scottish Gaelic, and the suggestion would be that there might be some Scottish ancestry involved. It must be remarked that many people have a tendency to assume that verses in Gaelic "must" be older than verses in English. This is not necessarily the case. There is a long tradition of translating English-language songs into Gaelic as well as the reverse, so linguistic evidence alone tells us little. Sandberg's comments on original authorship (see above) seem to have been dismissed in a paper, 'The Red River Valley Re-Examined', in Western Folklore, 23, 163 (referred to by Edith Fowke in The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs and probably elsewhere). The DT repeats the attribution to James Kerrigen (as do a number of other websites) but it would appear that he simply adapted an existing song. Nor does an examination of the tune help a great deal. It is widely known and has been much-parodied (I think that I heard it as a Rugby song long ago); on the whole, and without going into it in any depth, it strikes me as a fairly typical nineteenth century parlour ballad. My suspicion would be that the Gaelic chorus is a later addition, but it would help to know what the words are; that might help to indicate whether it is a translation of part of the song, or whether it has been added from somewhere else. Bear in mind that this song has been widely found in tradition, but never, so far as I know, with any Gaelic in it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,Q Date: 21 Oct 03 - 02:45 PM Only anecdotal evidence of the song in Canada before "The Bright Mohawk Valley" was written in the 1890s by James J. Kerrigan. The song most likely concerns the Red River in Texas-Arkansas-Louisiana and the rich farmlands along it. Settlement expanded rapidly in the 1860s, and included the Valley all the way into Louisiana. It forms the border between much of north Texas and Oklahoma. John Clement Reed (Handbook of Texas), important in Texas history, farmed in the Red River Valley in Texas in 1836, and was one of the first. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:15 PM Presumably there must be some grounds for it being "most likely" to be that Red River Valley, and not the one in the North East? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,Q Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:46 PM The red River of the North is north central, not northeast. It is due north of the Red River of the South. There is no clear indication of location in "Red River Valley." My grounds are that the farms along the southern Red River, and ranches of North Texas, were well-developed and well-known before the Metis and immigrants made much of the Manitoba area. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:04 AM I'll ask Ronnie for the (Scottish) Gaelic chorus. He himself does not know what it means! Watch this space. Keith. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic? From: LadyJean Date: 22 Oct 03 - 10:38 PM There is a Greek folk dance that originated among Greek Americans in Pittsburgh, PA. It migrated back to the Greek Isles, and is danced there still. Folk tradition travels, especially these days. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,Boab Date: 23 Oct 03 - 02:23 AM Just a wee comment on the "migratory" nature of folk music; a song---now very popular among folkies in Scotland---which I never came across in any venue or publication before Jean Redpath's association with Serge Hovey re. Burns' works, was discovered by that Lady when she was in Montana."Dumbarton's Drums". Am I alone in getting an American "country" flavour in the melody. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 23 Oct 03 - 09:12 AM The Dumbarton's Drums tune currently popular for the song is not the original one, but came from the American Beers family. More info at Dumbarton's Drums-History? The song itself has been known since the early part of the 18th century (Thomson's Orpheus Caledonius,1733), the original tune since the later 17th (Skene MS). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,stewartrobinson@sbcglobal.net Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:05 PM I am interested in obtaining the lyrics to james kerrigan's song "In The Bright Mohawk Valley." Are they available on the web, and if so, could you give me the site or paste the lyrics and e-mail them to me. Thanks, Stewart Robinson |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Paul Burke Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:23 AM Folk tradition travels, especially these days. Peter Bellamy used to tell the story of one of the tin whistle slow airs that he played. A song, collected by Alan Lomax in the USA, bought on record by Willie Clancy in Ireland in the fifties. He loved the tune, so played it in his own inimitable style on his whistle. Picked up by folk music collectors in Ireland, and issued on yet another recording, from which Peter learned it. The song? Black is the color... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: RiGGy Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:05 AM I think it's "Connamarra Cradle Song." Riggy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,JTT Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:25 PM Take It Down From The Mast isn't the same tune. Similar; not the same. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 05 - 10:36 AM Guest, Q....it hain't got nuttin' to do with texas, ya'll! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 09 Jul 05 - 10:58 AM It was attibuted in many US published books to one ' James A. Kerrigan ' - note the spelling ye Scot folkies - who I guess lived in the southwest , possibly New Mexico/Kansas/Oklahoma - which would explain some of the odd lyrics I've seen ...eg "When you to your home in THE NATIONS". Also associated - in my mind- with the Cado people which live/d along the Red River on the Texas Oklahoma border. IOW I think the song was written by Native American for a Native American and was later adopted by everybody. KerrigAn btw is a common Oirish name and most likely for the time( famine immigration decades) and location(wild west still being settled), ie Red River country - rustler, lawless and wide open even in the later decades of the 19th century. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM Guest, you take your origins and I'll take mine. Sorefingers, don't know about a native American origin, but you have the correct river. You are both right and wrong about the character of the area. Many old farms there (See Handbook of Texas), and it was a prominent outlet for cotton and cattle from northeast Texas to New Orleans by steamboat. Red River Co. had 8500 residents by 1860; Bowie County has 2600 slaves and 2400 whites in 1860 (cotton and corn the main crops); Montague County was still the wild west, having Indian troubles in 1860, but by the 1880s there were 11000 farmers and cattlemen. No one has ever located a copy of the supposed Kerrigan song of 1896, first mentioned by Sandburg. It doesn't seem to exist. See thread 66800: In the Bright |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 05 - 07:51 PM About the year 1812, Lord Selkirk settled some of his Gaelic-speaking tenantry in the Red River Valley of what is now southern Manitoba. Please note, Q, that this was roughly 25 years before John Clement Reed became "one of the first" ranchers in the Texan Red River district. In fact, Texas was still part of Mexico when the northern Red River Settlement was established. So the existence of a Gaelic chorus to the song Red River Valley might add weight to the Manitoban claim for primacy. Keith A of Hertford, please post this Gaelic lyric from your mate's great-grandfather. It would be so cool if the words referred to, for instance, the Pembina Hills or the storm-tossed waters of Lake Winnipeg or the Metis encampment at The Forks. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Bob the Postman Date: 09 Jul 05 - 07:56 PM Oops, stale cookie. The above posting was me. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Jul 05 - 08:51 PM Since the chorus in question appears only ever to have been heard in Hertfordshire, UK, from somebody who didn't know what it meant, any real connection with the American song does seem extremely unlikely on the face of it. If the words turn out to be real Gaelic (and bear in mind that Keith started this thread nearly two years ago; we still haven't seen them) there is always the risk that they may be from somewhere else entirely; or just an early 20th century Highland shopping list added for a laugh. A lot of grandfathers have that kind of sense of humour. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:11 AM The tune of Red River Valley/etc is nearly identical with that of a famous New Orleans jazz song, "We Will Walk through the Streets of the City," also recorded by the Carter Family and by Bllind Gary Davis (and others). I have just yesterday, 22Jul2005, found sheet music for "We Will Walk in the Streets of the City" at the Library of Congress' American Memory site. See http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.music/sm1874.14542 The words are by Rev. Mr. A. Flamman and the music by Dr. T. H. Peacock, copyright (U.S.) 1874. The chorus is definitely the "Red River Valley" tune. 1874 is only 4 years after the end of the Canadian Red River Rebellion. It seems quite plausible to imagine that when "Streets of the City" was published someone found its chorus tune attractive enough to use it for a song about the late rebellion. In this scenario, it would spread to other areas and be adapted as a cowboy song and as "Bright Sherman/Mohawk Valley." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:21 AM Sorry, I forgot about this, and I won't be seeing Ronnie for a few weeks now. I will get back to you. Keith. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: greg stephens Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:22 AM Evidence from the style of a tune is notoriously unreliable: having said that, I would say the tune has very strong "southern" characteristics.In American or European terms I mean Spanish rather than Anglo-Saxon/"Celtuc". Which makes Texas marginally more likely than Canada. Excedpt, of course, that people who make up tunes are allowed to travel round the world. Or listen to other people who do.... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 30 Jul 05 - 03:45 PM Starting as early as 1898, at least, THE GOLDEN CITY was published in hymnals. Variants of its text go back to some time before 1882. Its tune is an adaptation of the chorus of Peacock's WE WILL WALK IN THE STREETS OF THE CITY (1874). THE GOLDEN CITY has "Words arr. by Geo. J. French" and "Geo. J. French, Arr." (of the music). It seems evident that French based his tune "arrangement" on Peacock's chorus. It also seems likely that the text of GOLDEN was inspired by Flamman's text for STREETS, the GOLDEN text probably being a rewrite aimed at Adventists. French removes the "jerkiness" from Peacock's tune by replacing dottted-eighth-sixteenth note pairs by eighth-eighth pairs. He also modifies the incipit, from SOL-do-mi (STREETS and RED RIVER VALLEY) to do-re-mi (GOLDEN). My recollection is that New Orleans jazz bands follow GOLDEN and play do-re-mi, rather than SOL-do-mi. My guess, then, is that jazz musicians picked up the song from French's arrangment of GOLDEN. The latter was arranged from the chorus of Peacock's STREETS. GOLDEN uses variants of the same tune for stanzas and chorus, as do, I think, jazz bands. STREETS, however, has different tunes for stanzas and chorus. RIVER seems to have taken its tune from the chorus of STREETS, while jazz bands take theirs from GOLDEN. Interestingly, Taylor's 1882 song, also entitled THE GOLDEN CITY, follows Peacock in having different tunes for stanzas and chorus. Moreover, Taylor's tune for the chorus seems to contain a feature of the usual RIVER tune that both Peacock and French lack. P and F have the last two notes of the 3rd phrase as fa-fa, whereas RIVER and Taylor have the as sol-fa. ("Just remember the Red River Valley" - these are the notes for "Val-ley".) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 30 Jul 05 - 08:44 PM Very interesting, but I dunno. Although with about the same meter, I can't convince myself that any similarity between "Red River Valley" and the Peacock-Flamman "We Will Walk in the Streets of the City" is more than coincidental. When sung, the two are different. Can't find Taylor's or French's "Golden City." Also can't seem to find a New Orleans band version. I vaguely recall it, but it has been quite a few years since I heard it. The chorus of "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" (not the Robinson- Nettleton version but the folk version in Brown, 562, p. 355 of vol. 5) has a suggestive meter*, but I can't convince myself that it is the same song as Red River Valley." Several tunes have been used for this hymn. (*We will walk through the streets of the city Where our friends have gone before; We will sit on the banks of the river, Where we meet to part no more). To date, no one seems to have found the 'ghost' song, "Bright Mohawk Valley" by Kerrigan. Its existence is doubtful, as noted before. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 03 Aug 05 - 11:30 AM Q wrote >I can't convince myself that any similarity between "Red River >Valley" and the Peacock-Flamman "We Will Walk in the Streets >of the City" is more than coincidental. When sung, the two are >different. Wow! It is obvious to me that they are the "same" tune. There are minor variations, of course. >Can't find Taylor's or French's "Golden City." Marshall W. Taylor, Revival Hymns and Plantation Melodies, Cincinnati: Marshall W. Taylor and W. C. Echols, 1882, pp 50-51. The Golden Sheaf (enlarged edition), Boston: Advent Christian Publication Society, 1902, p 51. >Also can't seem to find a New Orleans band version. Found on the WWW: Bunk Johnson We will Walk Through The Streets of the City 1961 - Humphrey, Percy - We Shall Walk Through the Streets of the City - Riverside - Crescent City Joy Makers FW02856 Doc Paulin's Marching Band Record Label: Folkways Records 201 - We Shall Walk Through the Streets of the City - Dirge 202 - We Shall Walk Through the Streets of the City - March From WWW sources, I estimate that there have been around 60 jazz recordings of "We Will/Shall Walk through the Streets of the City." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:37 PM John, please could you provide the actual urls or links to the various sources you've indicated? Makes it much nicer. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Aug 05 - 01:14 PM What I meant was that the songs were not available to me. The only copy of Marshall W. Taylor I can locate costs #275.00. "The Golden Sheaf" is reasonable, but does it have the sheet music? We Shall Walk (Streets of the City) does not seem to be available at RedHotJazz.com |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Jim McLean Date: 03 Aug 05 - 01:24 PM http://www.sheppey.free-online.co.uk/sijb/ The sheep Island Jazz Band's home page features We shall Walk ... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 03 Aug 05 - 02:23 PM I wrote of several things found on the WWW. George Seto asked for URLs. >Bunk Johnson We will Walk Through The Streets of the City http://www.pierceworld.com/byartist.txt >1961 - Humphrey, Percy - We Shall Walk Through the Streets >of the City - Riverside - Crescent City Joy Makers http://www.jass.com/tom/next/noms/hueybluey.html >FW02856 Doc Paulin's Marching Band >Record Label: Folkways Records >201 - We Shall Walk Through the Streets of the City - Dirge >202 - We Shall Walk Through the Streets of the City - March http://www.smithsonianglobalsound.org/containerdetail.asp?itemid=2113 >From WWW sources, I estimate that there have been around >60 jazz recordings of "We Will/Shall Walk through the Streets >of the City." http://www.lordisco.com/tunes/ This site lists Streets of the city 25 We shall walk through the City 1 We shall walk through the street 1 We shall walk through the streets 1 We shall walk through the streets of the city 28 We shall walk thru the streets of the city 1 We will walk through the streets of the city 1 These are probably all the same song. The following may or may not be that song. golden city 1 golden city strut 2 Streets 2 Streets boogie 1 We shall walk 3 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 03 Aug 05 - 02:37 PM Q wrote (>): >The only copy of Marshall W. Taylor I can locate costs #275.00. That's probably a reasonable price. On WorldCat (on-line library catalog) I find 38 copies in libraries and 11 more that have it on microform. >"The Golden Sheaf" is reasonable, but does it have the sheet >music? If by "sheet music" you mean "musical score," yes. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 03 Aug 05 - 02:46 PM Thanks, John. Immeasurable help. Now for the blickies:
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Subject: Lyr Add: IN THE BRIGHT MOHAWK VALLEY (Kerrigan) From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:45 PM Q sez: >To date, no one seems to have found the 'ghost' song, >"Bright Mohawk Valley" by Kerrigan. Its existence is doubtful, >as noted before. I just went over to the library and copied Edith Fowke, "'The Red River Valley' Re-Examined," Western Folklore 23 (1964), 163-171. If she didn't see Kerrigan's sheet music, she surely faked it well. Sandburg, the Lomaxes, and Spaeth all refer to it. Fowke gives the following information. IN THE BRIGHT MOHAWK VALLEY Words and music by James J. Kerrigan New York: Howley, Haviland & Co. Copyright 1896 Sheet music Oh they say from this valley you're going, We shall miss your sweet face and bright smile, You will take with you all the sunshine That has gladdened our hearts for awhile. I have waited a long time my darling, For those words that your lips ne'er would say, Now the hope from my heart has departed, And I'm told you're going away. Chorus: For the sake of the past, do not leave me, Do not hasten to bid me adieu! Oh, remain in this bright Mohawk valley, With the fond heart that lives but for you. Do you think of the valley you're leaving? Oh, how dreary 'twill be when you go, Have you thought of the heart, so lonely, That has loved you and cherished you so. Tell me not that our lives must be severed, Give me back, love, the smile once so dear, Oh! this valley would lost (sic) all its brightness, If its fairest of flow'rs were not here. At a brief glance, Fowke's paper seems to make an excellent case for a Canadian genesis of "Red River Valley." Included among the testimonials is the following: "Some years ago a friend whose home was in Montreal told me that at one time a crack Canadian regiment had been stationed in the Red River Valley locality. The officers were well thought of socially, but seem to have philandered among the Indian girls to some extent. The white girls, of course, resented this, and at a farewell ball given to the officers on the occasion of their transfer, the young lady who had composed this song rose and sang it, much to the embarrassment of the ones at whom it was aimed." This is cited as being from the Robert Winslow Gordon collection, item no. 3133. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:54 PM More on Kerrigan: From http://www.itebooks.net/Bands/rubber-band-man-song/ "I found "The Bright Mohawk Valley" listed as f.5 in Box 2 in the Milne Special Collections and Archives at the University of New Hampshire Library. Closer to home, it turned up in the Library of Congress (call # M1622.K) with words and music by James J. Kerrigan and published in New York City in 1896." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,Frankham Date: 05 Aug 05 - 05:27 PM The Red River Valley is in Texas. The published version in the 1800's could possibly have been a copyrighted adaptation of the song which could have predated that. The problem with copyrighted versions of songs is that there is no proof that they are the definitive originating versions. Sam Hinton has stated that Barbara Allen was only saved as a song in aural tradition because someone wrote it down. It was adapted through other variants after that. Here's the problem with folk songs. We can find an attributable author to almost any song but there's no telling it's the first authentic version of the song. In some cases, there seems to be no doubt that there is an attribution before the song goes into aural transmission such as Maud Irving's Wildwood Flower. Remember, though, that many folksingers and songwriters put their names on traditional tunes that have been floating around for decades such as folks like Guthrie, Dylan, and others. Who really knows who composed these tunes originally? If you can trace Red River Valley back to the 16th Century, you might have a point. Otherwise, it's up for grabs. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Aug 05 - 05:52 PM I had the Univ. New Hampshire Milne collection reference, before. Their copy is not by Kerrigan: "The Bright Mohawk Valley Copyright Date: 1935 Composer unknown, Lyricist unknown Arranged by: Nick Manoloff Performer: Patsy Montana Publisher: Calumet Music Co." Theit copy seems to be in a book of western songs published by Calumet. The Library of Congress search Number 1622k turns up songs by Kuhns, Kelly, Keller and Kennedy under 'K' but no Kerrigan. Search for James J. Kerrigan leads to a book on investing. Lomax and Sandburg Bright Mohawk Valley, or In the Bright Mohawk Valley (cited in Fuld)provide 0 results. Still no beef. Did you get the text of the song from Fowke's paper? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Aug 05 - 06:05 PM I am not able to look into the Piper Collection, Univ. Iowa, wrere apparently there is an old pencil manuscript with dates 1879 and 1885 on it (cited in Fuld and elsewhere). The Lomaxes and Sandburg, with reference to Bright Mohawk Valley, were quoting from Spaeth, a notoriously poor researcher whose results were often given to him by unnamed assistants. [Finishing a cut-off sentence in my previous post. Guest Frankham, students of folksong in Texas would mostly agree with you, as I do, but no clear evidence. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 06 Aug 05 - 01:09 PM Q: "Did you get the text of the song from Fowke's paper?" Yes. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 06 Aug 05 - 02:55 PM The alleged Kerrigan sheet music is, as Q states, mystifying. I wonder where Fowke got such details. Could she be copying from Spaeth. The Spaeth work she cites is A History of Popular Music in America New York: Random Housee, 1948 p 289 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Aug 05 - 07:48 PM The Spaeth book should be in many libraries and it is low-priced on the used market. Should be easy to check what the content is on this song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:57 PM I checked Spaeth, A History of Popular Music (1948). He mentions Kerrigan, In the Bright Mohawk Valley, but gives no information about it at all. Spaeth is not Fowke's source. I checked Sandburg, The American Songbag (1927). His note says, "The popular song In the Bright Mohawk Valley went through changes in the seaboard and mountain states of the South...." There is no mention of James J. Kerrigan or of the date 1896. Sandburg is not Fowke's source. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,Obie Date: 10 Aug 05 - 03:51 PM The Red River Valley is in Manitoba. The early settlers were Gaelic speaking Highland Scots so it should be hardly surprising that there would be a Gaelic version of this song. There was also a lot of intermarriage between these people and the Native Indians so a Metis connection is also not unreasonable. There is more than one Red River, and just because there is one in Texas does not mean that it was the original venue of the song. Slainte, Obie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:25 PM Country Music Sources. Guthrie T. Meade, Jr.; Dick Spottswood; Douglas S. Meade. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 2002. "When Gus Meade died suddenly on February 9, 1991, he was only 58 years old and still in the midst of preparing this monumental work." - Dick Spottswood It would be over 10 years before Gus' "biblio-discography" would be published, and the editors had quite a time making sense of some of what they had. Gus used short abbreviations for all kinds of works. The editors identified most of those, but not all. For what it's worth, here are the significant parts of the headnotes to In the Bright Mohawk Valley: **** 'A Lady in Love,' ca. 1889/James J. Kerrigan, 1896; Ref: (1) WCS#24(Oct. 1889), p. 17, 'A Lady In Love'; Delaney #13 **** "WCS" is Wehman's Collection Of Songs (NYC: Henry J. Wehman, 1884-94), 42 issues. "Delaney" is Delaney's Song Book, #1-88 (NYC: Wm W. Delaney, 1892-1921). I suppose that someone will have to go to the Library of Congress, or some such place, to track down the Wehman/Delaney references. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:17 PM I don't know when Fowke obtained the material for her article in Western Folklore (1964). The song is not mentioned in her "Canada's Story in Song," (with Alan Mills and Helmut Blume). 1960. In the 9 LP set "Canadian Folk Songs," A Centennial Collection, 1967, "Red River Valley" is sung by Joyce Sullivan on V-B. The note says: "One of the best-loved songs of Canada's prairie provinces. This is a variant of a popular American song of the late 19th Century called "In the Bright Mohawk Valley", which is sung in various forms all through North America and elsewhere. A good example of how Canadians- especially westerners- adopted the songs of their southern neighbors and "regionalized" them to suit their own particular areas, the song tells the sentimental tale of a prairie girl who is "jilted" by her lover and yearns for the happy times they once new together." There is no mention of a dark maiden. No dates or supporting data. She must have developed her ideas after 1960. I find it odd that no copies of sheet music for "In the Bright Mohawk Valley" have been found, if the song was so popular. An unrelated song, "Our Mabel," 1860, sheet music is in the Levy Collection. The song begins: "Down in the Mohawk Valley where the river flows, There lives dear little Mabel, Our wild forest rose." Chorus: "Angels guard sweet Mabel ev'ry day and hour,..." No copies of sheet music of any of these titles are in The Western Trails Collection at the University of Colorado sheet music collection. "A Bright Little Valley," by F. C. Andrews, 1883, at American Memory, is unrelated. The song seems not to have spread by means of formal printings. It is not in John A. Lomax, 1910, "Cowboy Songs," nor in the 1925 revision. It was added later, first? by the Lomaxes in the 1938 "Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads," taken from "Patt Patterson's "Songs of the Round-Up Rangers," tune from "Pioneer Songs," compiled by the Daughters of Utah Pioneers. Where does "The Traditional Ballad Index" get the 1910 date for first printing? It is not from John Lomax 1910. The Fifes, in "Songs of the Cowboys," note that one of the songs in Thorp's 1908 collection, The "Grand Round-Up," was sung to "Red River Valley" as well as "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean." No dates given. Powder River Jack Lee, in his 1938 "Cowboy Songs," tells one of his tales. "The original version of the Red River Valley pertains to a love affair between a cowboy and a school teacher who hailed from the east and was returning to her home. ..... The Red River valley in the original song refers to South Dakota, where I first heard Frank Chamberlin sing it at a cowcamp on the Moreau River. Carl Sprague was given credit for the music, ...." Randolph collected the song from Maxine Reno, Missouri, in 1927. Brown collected versions in 1921(?)-1922 (Laurel Valley, Bascomb Lamar Lunsford; and Sherman Valley, Addie Hardin). Not much of substance in the above, but setting it down helps to keep it straight in my mind. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:58 PM Fowke claimed that the song developed in 1869 at the time of the Red River Rebellion (Canadian Encyclopedia): Encyclopedia A very popular website, www.homestead.com, says the song originated among British troops who came to Manitoba through the Northern Red River Valley. "It was a military song." In the next paragraph, this website says the song "is believed to have been written by James Kerrigan in 1896." This of course is impossible if the song is, as Fowke believes, some 25 or so years older. The website has an excellent midi, with a slightly variant chorus, and very attractive illustrations: Red River Valley Not carrying the investigation forward, but interesting. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE RED RIVER VALLEY (Fowke) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:22 PM Edith Fowke, ed., 1973, "The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs," includes a version of "The Red River Valley," no. 52, p. 124-125, with note as follows (in part): "This is probably the best known folk song on the Canadian prairies. --- later research indicates that it was known in at least five Canadian Provinces before 1896, and was probably composed during the Red River rebellion of 1870 ('The Red River Valley Re-examined', Western Folklore, 23, 163). Later versions are short and generalized but the early form told of an Indian or half-breed girl lamenting the departure of her white lover, a soldier who came west with Colonel Wolseley to suppress the first Riel Rebellion. Mrs Fraser's text is very similar to the earliest known versions, and Barbeau gives another traditional version from Calgary in "Come A-Singing." The version, with music (chorus same as verses) and chords is presumably the one from Mrs. Fraser. No dates given for any version. Lyr. Add: THE RED RIVER VALLEY (Fowke) b 4/4 From this (F)valley they say (C7)you are (F)going; F I shall (F)miss your bright (F)eyes and sweet (C7)smile, C For a- (F)las you take (F)with you the (Bb)sunshine Gm That has (C)brightened my (C7)pathway a- (F)while. Chorus Come and sit by my side if you love me, Do not hasten to bid me adieu, But remember the Red River Valley And the girl who has loved you so true. For this long, long time I have waited For the words that you never would say, But now my last hope has vanished When they tell me that you're going away. Oh, there never could be such a longing In the heart of a white maiden's breast As there is in the heart that is breaking With love for the boy who came west. When you go to your home by the ocean May you never forget the sweet hours That we spent in the Red River Valley, Or the vows we exchanged 'mid the bowers. Will you think of the valley you're leaving? Oh, how lonely and dreary 'twill be! Will you think of the fond heart you're breaking And be true to your promise to me? The dark maiden's prayer for her lover To the spirit that rules o'er the world; His pathway with sunshine may cover, Leave his grief to the Red River girl. Sounds like a parlor song. It does not sound as though it developed from the people involved. There are many Metis (half-breed) in the west, who are still on Metis reserve land. Some rights are still undetermined. They were set apart from the Indians and from the whites. Hudson Bay Traders sometimes took Indian women as wives. In some cases the marriage took, and the family, which may have been given land by the Bay, eventually moved into the Canadian population, others were drawn into the Metis settlements which were in the center of the Riel Rebellion, and may have either kept the Metis way of life, or eventually moved into the general population. In many cases, the white trader or voyageur moved on, leaving the woman and children to the welfare of Indian or Metis relatives. The story is complex. Some Canadian families with these origins recognize their native blood, others do not. Some with roots from the British Isles prefer the term 'country' in place of Metis but those with French roots use the term Metis. Most military men went back to where their units came from. An interesting complication is that a percentage of the active voyageurs were hired from Hawai'i. Not all returned although they mostly had contract limits. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:26 PM Thanks, Q, for all the info. I have recently ordered and received a copy of Fowke's Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs and I vouch for your representation, except that the version from Mrs. Fraser does carry a date (and place), 1961 (Lancaster). I think we can be certain that In the Bright Mohawk Valley is not a phantom. Steve Roud tells us, "Delaney's Song Book No.13 [Sep 1896] p.18 has a text of IN THE BRIGHT MOHAWK VALLEY, headed 'Words and music by James J, Kerrigan, copyright 1896 by Howley, Haviland & Co.'" This fits the information provided by Fowke in Western Folklore 23 (1964). Indeed, it is possible that Delaney's is Fowke's source. I will try to verify with Steve that the words in Delaney's are the same as those printed by Fowke. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:14 PM After reading the lyrics of many versions of "The Red River Valley," I am beginning to change my mind as to the origin. Most have many words and lines and a style in common, suggesting a common source in sheet music, songsheet or songbook. Sentences, such as "And the love we exchanged 'mid the bowers" ('flowers' in some) and "Do not hasten to bid me adieu," "dark maiden's prayer," etc. suggest a parlor song. The date attributed to Kerrigan's music seems a little late for many of the (anecdotal) reports, and the lack of preserved copies of the sheet music, leave doubt in my mind about that source. However, printing in one of the many 'song books' of the times would insure fairly widespread distribution of the song. You also mention "Wehman's Collection of Songs" (no. 24). Even multiple sources? Wehman Bros. issued song books and joke books, including Irish and minstrel. Delaney Pub. put out hymns and could well have issued many song books. These sem to be extermely rare, but many of the 19th c. songsters were used to disintegration. I found none in the Library of Congress index, but I may not have searched properly. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE COWBOY'S LOVE SONG (Jules Verne Allen From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:18 PM Lyr. Add: THE COWBOY'S LOVE SONG (AKA Red River Valley) Jules Verne Allen From this valley they say you are going, We will miss your bright eyes and sweet smile; For at last you are seekin' the sunshine, To brighten your pathway for a while. Chorus: Then come sit here awhile 'ere you leave us, Do not hasten to bid us adieu. Just remember the Red River Valley, And the cowboy who loves you so true. I have promised you darling that never, Will the words from my lips cause you pain; And my life it will be yours forever, If you only will love me again. Must the past with its joys be blighted, By the future of sorrow and pain? Must the vows that were spoken be slighted? Don't you think you could love me again? Chorus There never could be such a longing, In the heart of a poor cowboy's breast, As dwells in the heart you are breaking, As I wait in my home in the West. Do you think of the valley you're leaving? Oh, how lonely and dreary it will be! Do you think of the kind hearts you're hurting? And the pain you are causing to me? Chorus: Then come sit here awhile 'ere you leave us, Do not hasten to bid us adieu, Just remember the Red River Valley, And the cowboy who loves you so true. pp. 102-103, with music. Allen was born in Texas in 1883. As a horse wrangler he worked the plains in the 90s and worked cattle from Mexico to Montana. Jules Verne Allen, 1933, "Cowboy Lore," The Naylor Company, San Antonio, Texas. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 12 Aug 05 - 10:53 AM >Steve Roud tells us, >"Delaney's Song Book No.13 [Sep 1896] p.18 has a text of >IN THE BRIGHT MOHAWK VALLEY, headed 'Words and >music by James J, Kerrigan, copyright 1896 by Howley, >Haviland & Co.'" This fits the information provided by Fowke >in Western Folklore 23 (1964). Indeed, it is possible that >Delaney's is Fowke's source. I will try to verify with Steve >that the words in Delaney's are the same as those printed >by Fowke. I've now heard from Steve again, >John >Words are exactly the same except in the last but one >line Delaney has 'lose' instead of 'lost'. Delaney prints >it as two eight-line verses, with chorus in between, but >this may simply be to squeeze it onto the page. >Hope this helps! >Steve |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:22 PM One part of the puzzle completed. Thanks, John. Now if the comments in Fowke's article about older occurrences can be verified (sources, etc.), that would go a long way towards dispelling the fog. Is the reference to Delaney's Song Book complete? No copies seem to be at the Library of Congress, or they are not considered for the online catalogue. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 12 Aug 05 - 03:55 PM Steve Roud evidently owns it or has a photocopy. Gus Meade, Country Music Sources, cites it as part of Delaney's Song Book #1-88 (NYC: Wm W. Delaney, 1892-1921) I'm not sure whether Gus built his own collection of such materials or relied on holdings of LOC, Smithsonian, and other libraries and collectors. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 22 Aug 05 - 04:39 PM I've been told that the LOC is sending me a copy of "In the Bright Mohawk Valley," but I haven't received it yet. Also, the LOC informs me that they have Wehman's Collection of Songs, that it is not presently available, and that I should make another request after the first of the year. |
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Subject: Tune Add: IN THE BRIGHT MOHAWK VALLEY From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:19 PM I have received from LOC a photocopy of IN THE BRIGHT MOHAWK VALLEY, as sung by John W. Rice, Words & Music by James J. Kerrigan. New York: Howley, Haviland & Co., 4 East 20th St. 1896. Kerrigan keeps much of the ragged tempo of Peacock's 1874 tune, WE WILL WALK IN THE STREETS OF THE CITY, and he maintains Peacock's incipit, D G B (in the key of G, instead of the later GOLDEN CITY's G A B), as well. However, his tune varies significantly from its antecedents. This is especially notable in the tune for the second verse, which ends on E. In the chorus (as well as first verse), the familiar d/ c ("valley") cadence at the end of the third phrase of RED RIVER VALLEY is rendered instead as c/ E. An ABC version follows. This can be translated to conventional musical notation on line at http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html X:6 T:IN THE BRIGHT MOHAWK VALLEY S:Xerox copy of sheet music from LOC. As sung by John W. Rice. New York: Howley, Haviland & Co., 4 East 20th Street, 1896 C:Words & Music by James J. Kerrigan Z:John Garst 06Sep2005 M:4/4 L:1/4 Q:100 K:G %:Verse D/ G/ | B B3/4 B/4 B A/ G/ | A/ G3/2 z D/ G/ | B B3/4 B/4 d c/ B/ | A2 z D/ G/ | B B3/4 A/4 (G A3/4) B/4 | c/ E3/2-E F/ G/ | A B/ c/ F B3/4 A/4 | G2 z E3/4 F/4 | G G3/4 G/4 B A3/4 G/4 | G F z B3/4 B/4 | B F3/4 G/4 A G3/4 F/4 | G2 z G3/4 A/4 | B ^A3/4 B/4 e d3/4 B/4 | d c z c3/4-c/4 | (B/ e/) c/ A/ G F3/4 E/4 | E2 z %:Chorus D/ G/ | B B3/4 B/4 B A3/4 G/4 | A/ G3/2-G D3/4 G/4 | B B3/4 B/4 d c3/4 B/4 | A2 z D3/4 G/4 | B B3/4 A/4 G A3/4 B/4 | c/ E3/2-E F3/4 G/4 | A B/ c/ F/ B A/ | G3 z |] |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Dec 05 - 04:40 PM |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Dec 05 - 04:51 PM Sorry I let this drop. Since I last posted I have only recently seen Ronnie. To recap, he comes from a musical Highland family. His Gaelic speaking grandfather used to sing the song with part of the chorus in Gaelic. Ronnie does not speak it so only learned it phonetically. Of course the old boy may well have made it up himself. Anyone make sense of this? Hecenal hecenal eck an sunia Hecenal hecenal eck an sue ???? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,Obie Date: 07 Dec 05 - 08:25 PM Thig a'nal (hick a nall) "come over" aig an ( eck an ) "at the" Come over, come over, at the ?????????? Sorry, best I can do ! Slainte, Obie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Dec 05 - 02:33 AM Come over, come over, Red Rover, come over! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 20 Feb 06 - 03:39 PM Gus Meade (Country Music Sources) cites **** WCS#24(Oct. 1889), p. 17, 'A Lady In Love' **** in connection with "In the Bright Mohawk Valley," etc. "WCS" is Wehman's Collection Of Songs (NYC: Henry J. Wehman, 1884-94), 42 issues. When I enquired of the Music Reading Room, Library of Congress, last year, I was told that Wehman's Collection of Songs was temporarily unavailable and that I should renew my enquiry after the new year. I did so. Sadly, I have now been informed that WCS #24 (Oct. 1889) could not be located and that "A Lady in Love" appears to be absent from all of the Wehman collections held by the LOC. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: LADY IN LOVE (1889) From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 04 Mar 06 - 02:17 PM Thanks to Paul Charosh, and to Norm Cohen, who contacted Paul, and Ed Cray, who said Norm was the man to ask, I now have the text of "A Lady in Love," Wehman's Collection of Songs #24, October, 1889, p 17. LADY IN LOVE Oh, they say from this valley you are going, I shall miss your blue eye and bright smile; And, alas! it will take all the sunshine That has brightened my pathway for awhile. Then consider well ere you leave us, Do not hasten to bid us adieu, But remember the dear little valley, And the girl that has loved you so true. Do you think of the home you are leaving, How sad and how dreary 'twill be? Do you think of the heart you are breaking, Or the shadow it will cast over me? I have waited a long time, my darling, For the words that you never would say, And at last all my fond hopes have vanished, For they tell me you are going away. This is from a microfilm, I'm told, and we don't yet know where the original resides. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Mar 06 - 09:08 PM Thank you for tracking down a copy of the lyrics to "Lady in Love." There is still much we don't know about this song, but your efforts are filling in some blanks. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,Friendly Manitoba Date: 01 May 06 - 11:23 PM I was reading your thread and thought these links might add some interest. http://www.plainsfolk.com/songs/song4.htm http://www.plainsfolk.com/ Some information about Manitoban culture and history that might shed some light on the confusion here. Manitoba was originally occupied by the cree people of First Nations, Canada. Thier culture carried a highly developed capacity for sharing. Cree culture teaches that the power of this sharing capacity would ultimatly absorb all others whom it contaced. In this way the French who settled in Manitoba soon became the French-Metis, and the Scotts became the Scotts-Metis. The Riel Rebellion succeeded in establishing an independant (if briefly) Metis (which literally means "Mixed Blood") Nation. Within this cultural cocktale there resides all of the peices that you have been discussing. Half-breed was a term which was in common usage (including government publications) from the time that Manitoba was still a part of the former Rupert's Land and up untill the 1970's. Many Metis appear white, aboriginal, or show a mix of traits. The singer appears in each of these forms (from a white girl, to a dark maiden) depending which version you look at. The subject however, remains consistantly blue eyed (british). That there might be some passive/agressive behavior as described in the testimonial from your list: "Some years ago a friend whose home was in Montreal told me that at one time a crack Canadian regiment had been stationed in the Red River Valley locality. The officers were well thought of socially, but seem to have philandered among the Indian girls to some extent. The white girls, of course, resented this, and at a farewell ball given to the officers on the occasion of their transfer, the young lady who had composed this song rose and sang it, much to the embarrassment of the ones at whom it was aimed." Frankly this is very typical Manitoban style (chuckels) not only the way in which it was delivered but the aditional practice of adopting a popular melody, making it our own and creating a double entandre to target a specific audience (in this case the british troops in occupation). This practice is rooted in a tradition of sharing, and is apparent in our music, theater and humor to this day. The song "Red River Vally" that is sung on the prairies originated out of this specific cultural heritage and though we may not be able to take credit for the muse (if the melody was given to us from somewhere else), I would challenge that the meaning and intent have dramatically altered from the original lyric if viewed from it's historic context and that it becomes a different song than the one being sung in texas or in church. A parlor song??? a love song??? these guys had thier way in the bowers of the entire Red River Vally! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 May 06 - 11:46 PM The interpretation by Friendly Manitoba has been supported by Edith Fowke and some other Canadian folk song collectors, but not by everyone. Many support the Red River Valley in the Southwest as the place of origin for the lyrics, while others suggest the American portion of the Red River (the Piper MS needs to be checked). So far, all evidence for these sources is anecdotal. Or is the original a parlor song, Lady in Love, the elusive Mohawk Valley, etc.? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Metchosin Date: 01 May 06 - 11:58 PM Agreed, Guest Friendly Manitoba. There was a programme on the CBC quite a few years back with the same premise. She didn't "hasten to bid him Adieu", as an affectation, it was part of the vernacular. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,thurg Date: 02 May 06 - 12:34 AM Getting back to the original post, which mentioned a Gaelic chorus - I asked Margaret Stewart, a Scottish Gaelic singer, about this; here's what she had to say: Willie John MacAulay used to sing a translation of Red River Valley it many years ago - it may even be on one of his old recordings. There was a phase of 'Country & Western' translations for a time when I was young - it may have been in the 60's or 70's. There was even a Gaelic tv programme with the same theme. It was DIRE !!! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,gullette Date: 07 Jun 07 - 02:07 PM I don't know if this will help or just further muddy the situation, but the LOC has a 1939 78-rpm Frank Luther recording called "Songs of old New York: 1650-1906" which contains "In the bright Mohawk Valley" (LC Control No.: 00727956). They have another 1982 33.1/3-rpm Robin Schade recording called "I love New York-- and I sing about it!" which contains "Bright Mohawk valley" (LC Control No.: 94758554). I got to these searching on "bright mohawk valley" at http://www.loc.gov/search/new/ |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,JTT Date: 07 Jun 07 - 07:16 PM Suain is a dream in Irish and Scots Gaedhlig. Why does it matter where the song comes from? It "sounds" Irish to me - the tune, that is, not the song - but so what? It's an American song. A few years ago I was on a bus, and standing behind me was an irascible middle European, one of the first of the flood of Poles and Latvians and Lithuanians and Estonians now bringing their talents to Ireland. He was lecturing an Irish friend about how the tunes of which Irish people are so proud are "all from eastern Europe anyway". I suspect that there's a library of tunes that's travelled from Africa to Greenland and from Ireland to Kamchatka, and vice versa. We are humans. We sing our song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Richie Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:41 AM What do you think of this? It's from Wiki: The earliest written manuscript of the lyrics, titled "Red River Valley", bears the notations 1879 and 1885 in locations Nemha and Harlan in western Iowa, so it probably dates to at least that era.[2] Fuld, The Book of World-Famous Music, p. 457: "A pencil manuscript of the words of The Red River valley bears the notation at the bottom 'Nemha 1879, Harlan 1885' and sets forth five stanzas. The University of Iowa, Iowas City, Iowa (Edwin Ford Piper Collection). Nemah and Harlan are towns in western Iowa." Is this manuscript authentic and if so what are the lyrics? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Jim McLean Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM I have an LP of Alasdair Gillies singing Gaelic songs. It's on Thistle Records BSLP 65, undated but I think it could be 1965 suggested by its label. He sings 'Gleann Dearg na H-Aibhne' (the red river valley) and the credits are Music trad, words by Gillies. This dates the Gaelic words and the chorus is, Thig a'nal, Thig a'nal .... as suggested by Obie as a translation of Keith of Hertford posting (December 2005. So, depending uupon the age of Keith of Hertford's friend's grandfather, I would suggest he was singing Alasdair Gillies' Gaelic words. I will try and get a complete English translation from the LP but, as the man said, it could take some time. I hope this answers the suggested Gaelic derivation of the song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM Re Richie post- As noted earlier, the Piper collection needs to be re-checked. There could be more data. Many of us, in going over old papers, or trying to remember when or where we got them, add dates which we 'think' are correct- the MS could be 'authentic' but the added dates the product of faulty memory. On the other hand, we know that the song pre-dates 1889, so the notes could be OK. We can't know whether the notes refer to a singer the writer heard, or printed material that he saw. Previously, John Garst posted Lady in Love, from Wehmann's Collection of Songs, no. 24, 1889. The verse content is the same as "Red River Valley." Wehman published collections, so the song is older than that; but how much older, and which valley is meant, if any particular one, is not yet known. (The Gaelic is late and has nothing to do with the origin of the song. Reminds me of the Chinese cook I heard in a small Alberta town who translated cowboy and pop songs into Chinese and sang them as he cooked in his cafe.) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Richie Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:50 PM Hi Q, Last week I did a western theme painting of the song. You can see it here: http://richardmattesonsblog.blogspot.com/ I asked John Garst to check into what is being held at the University of Iowa, Iowas City, Iowa in the Edwin Ford Piper Collection. It could be the first version. He'll report back later. If anyone else has that info it would be appreciated. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Jim McLean Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:44 PM Hi Q, The original question (posting) was: A Scottish singer at Our Monday session in Hertford sings Red River valley with a Gaelic chorus. He says he got it from his grandfather who had it from his father. This would suggest a non cowboy origin? Sweet smile, Keith. My posting above was answering it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:52 PM Jim, a couple of other posts here (and I think in a related thread) picked up on Gaelic or across the pond origins, humorously or not; my parenthetical statement was a generalized response, not specifically pointing at any of them. Richie, I like your painting. Long ago I was with a field party (ecological) in the Panhandle. We set camp near a fairly broad valley, with a tiny stream (sometimes almost intermittent since the water mostly flowed in the sand), but which had deep valley fill. The stream could have been larger in the 1800s. Lots of wild critters where we were, and good area for cattle. We were well away from the Palo Duro (formed by early Red River and its system) but still interesting country. The old JA ranch and others operated in the Canyon area and beyond. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Richie Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:54 PM Jim, Since this thread had the most info about the origin I put my question here. If the song showed up in Iowa in 1879 it would be the first collected version and I'd like to know the lyrics to see if they related to "A Lady in Love" or "Bright Mohawk Valley" or "Fowke's Canadian version. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: meself Date: 05 Nov 08 - 07:06 PM "Reminds me of the Chinese cook I heard in a small Alberta town who translated cowboy and pop songs into Chinese and sang them as he cooked in his cafe." My SO is Chinese, from northern China. She surprised me not long ago by singing in Mandarin what was clearly Red River Valley, as she went about some household chore ... (In a large Alberta city, if another connection is required). Said she had learned it in her childhood. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Nov 08 - 07:48 PM No connection to the subject, but an interesting book is "From This Valley They Say You Are Leaving," by Benjamin S. Persons. It concerns the Civil War Red River Campaign, waged along the lower reaches of the Red River of the South. Portions of the book are on line. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Richie Date: 06 Nov 08 - 01:07 AM Just Curious- does anyone know where the Bright Sherman Valley is? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 08 - 02:56 AM The tune and form of RRV was used for one of the best-known songs of The Spanish Civil War concerning the bitterly fought battle for Jerama. (from memory) There's a valley in Spain called Jerama It's a place that we all know so well, It was there that we gave of our manhood, And where most of our brave comrades fell. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Jim McLean Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:49 AM Richie, I'll try and get the song translated from Gaelic but what I can hear are just new words by Alasdair Gillies with no similarity to anything posted already. Alasdair was making an attempt at singing in a Country and Western style, trying to 'modernise' Gaelic song to appeal to a wider audience. That was 40 years ago and may not have had any efect then but there is a much wider apreciation of Gaelic now .. see the new TV station Alba on Freesat for example. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Richie Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:59 AM Her's waht I've found so far: Shermans Dale in Perry County, Pennsylvania is the probable site of the Bright Sherman Valley. Published in the 1909 Bulletin: United States Geological Survey of 1899-1905, there was a Newport and Sherman Valley Railroad, a Sherman Creek, and naturally a Sherman Valley. The other claim is Sherman Texas which is in the Red River basin. Surely Goebel Reeves, who was from Sherman Texas named his version "Bright Sherman Valley" because he grew up there. Looking at the first recordings I'd say Lunsford and others from the Appalachian Mountains probably were referring to Sherman Valley, Pennsylvania. We'll never know. One author claimed (with no documentation) the song was brought to Pennsylvania by the early settlers and disseminated from there. Any more info about Sherman Texas origin? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM Sherman, TX is an old town, incorporated before 1850. Sherman Valley, PA, received settlers in the 18th c., it no longer exists in current records. It was in what is now Bedford County. I don't know if records of Sherman's Valley, Perry Co. PA refer to the same area, but there are genealogical records of 18th c. inhabitants. Don't know of anything directly relating them to the song. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: RED RIVER VALLEY From: Richie Date: 16 Nov 08 - 12:44 PM Hi, on my request John Garst obtained copies of the two handwritten versions of Red River Valley from the Piper collection at the University of Iowa. One has, written under the lyrics, "Nemaha. 1879. Harlan 1885." He read this text is as follows: RED RIVER VALLEY From this valley they say you are going, I shall miss your bright eyes and your(?) smile; But alas, you take with you the sunshine That has brightened my pathway awhile. Then consider awhile ere you leave me Do not hasten to bid me adieu But remember the Red River Valley And the heart that has loved you so true. Do you think of he valley you're leaving, How lonesome and dreary 'twill be? Do you think of the heart you have broken And the sorrow that o'ershadows me? It is a long time I've been waiting For the words that you never would say, But alas, all my hopes they have vanished For they say you are going away. When you go to your home by the ocean, O do not forget the sweet hours, That we spent in the Red River Valley, And be true to your promise to me. The fair maiden prays for her lover To the spirit that rules o'er the world May his pathway be covered with sunshine Is the prayer of the Red River girl. He thinks this to be a good and typical example of the form of the song that is associated with the Red River Valley of the North (Canada) and a romance between and east-coast Canadian soldier and a Metis maiden of Manitoba. This is probably the original setting of the song. It's interesting that a song so popular and well-known would not have the first lyrics published. So here they are. Thanks John. Richie Thread #95992 Message #3268784 Posted By: Taconicus 05-Dec-11 - 11:56 AM Thread Name: Origin: Red River Valley Subject: Lyr Add: THE RED RIVER VALLEY
I've been able to obtain a copy of Edwin Piper's original manuscript of the lyrics to Red River Valley from the Edwin Ford Piper Collection of the University of Iowa Libraries with the help of Jacque Roethler, Special Collections Assistant at the University of Iowa in Iowa city (not to be confused with Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM Richie, those are the same six verses I posted from Fowke (above). It is an abbreviation of the nine-verse (plus chorus) version at the Univ. Toronto site, where it is listed as anonymous. Red River Valley It also is quoted in full at the ingeb site, with the note "some verses perhaps by James Kerrigan, 1896." Red River A copy is in the Frank Hoffman Coll., a copy in the Austin & Alta Fife Fieldwork Collection, Ser. II, MS Sources (vol. 11-16, where it bears the title "Prayer of the Red River Girl. Utah State Univ. Fife Coll Also in the Gordon Collection. I will post the full version (the last three verses from the Gordon Coll.) from the University of Tornto website.The copies at Iowa add nothing new. The added dates cannot be verified. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Richie Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM Hi Q, Though very similar to the wording in the Fowke version you posted, the version from the Iowa collection is not identical. There's also an additional verse in the Fowke: Oh, there never could be such a longing In the heart of a white maiden's breast As there is in the heart that is breaking With love for the boy who came west. There's no rhyme of hours (Fowke uses "bowers") and there are some other differences. They are very similar. Fowke could have known about this version and may have had access to it. The issue here is the date: 1879 would be the first written version. I'd like to see some documentation if there is any. Where did this come from? How old is the paper? etc Richie |
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Subject: Lyr Add: RED RIVER VALLEY (R. W. Gordon coll.) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:34 PM Lyr. Add: RED RIVER VALLEY (Last. 3 verses from R. W. Gordon Coll.) 1 From this valley they say you are going, We will miss your bright eyes and sweet smile, For they say you are taking the sunshine That brightens our pathway awhile. Chorus: Come and sit by my side if you love me, Do not hasten to bid me adieu, But remember the Red River Valley And the girl that has loved you so true. 2 For a long time I have been waiting For those dear words you never would say, But at last all my fond hopes have vanished, For they say you are going away. Chorus 3 Won't you think of the valley you're leaving? Oh how lonely, how sad it will be. Oh think of the fond heart you're breaking, And the grief you are causing me to see? Chorus 4 From this valley they say you are going; When you go, may your darling go too? Would you leave her behind unprotected When she loves no other but you? Chorus 5 I have promised you, darling, that never Will a word from my lips cause you pain; And my life,-- it will be yours forever If you only will love me again. Chorus 6 Must the past with its joys be blighted By the future of sorrow and pain, And the vows that were spoken be slighted? Don't you think you can love me again? Chorus 7 As you go to your home by the ocean, May you never forget those sweet hours, That we spent in the Red River Valley, And the love we exchanged 'mid the flowers. Chorus 8 There never could be such a longing In the heart of a pure maiden's breast, That dwells in the heart you are breaking As I wait in my home in the West. Chorus 9 And the dark maiden's prayer for her lover To the Spirit that rules over the world; May his pathway be ever in sunshine, Is the prayer of the Red River girl. Chorus It seems likely that the last 2-3 verses were additions to the original song. The Gordon Coll. is in the Archive of Folk Culture, Library of Congress. The first six are similar to the version collected by Sandburg from Gilbert R. Combs; Sandburg also added the three final verses from the R. W. Gordon Coll. (The American Songbag, pp. 130-131). The lyrics posted here are from the Library of the Univ. Toronto: Red River Valley and The American Songbag. Richie and John Garst deserve thanks for seeking out the MS at Iowa with its mysterious dates, which may have nothing to do with the song itself. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:13 PM The version in the pencil MS at the Univ. of Iowa remains questionable. The dates do not seem to be verifiable. So far, "Lady in Love," 1889, also found by Garst, is the earliest version with a printed date; it was in a collected songs volume, so must be earlier. We seem to be dealing with revisions of a printed song not yet found in the original. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST Date: 16 Nov 08 - 08:13 PM "This would suggest a non cowboy origin?" I seem to remember reading and hearing a few years ago that real cowboys (unlike their Holywood incarnations) were unlikely to have been All-American boys, and that there are several cowboy songs in Gaelic (no doubt there were some in Irish as well). I also have vague memories of hearing that c50 per cent of them were black. And on the cassette of Texan field-recordings "Sing Me a Song" edited by William A Owens (University of Texas Press) quite a few European nations are represented. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 PM Cowboys came from all over; from Europe mostly English and Irish, but from the continent as well; from all over the U. S., some displaced by the Civil War, some from the crowded eastern cities, some working their way west, some from hard-scrabble farms, some escaping from possible prison time or worse. In the Southwest many were Hispanic, and there were also Blacks and American Indians. Owens would be very familiar with the important German settlements in Texas, which still maintain their sangvereins; the Hispanic- Tejano culture in South Texas, and Cajuns who came from Louisiana to SE Texas. Similarly, if one looks at the early days of country music, some of the best musicians were from the immigrant population. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,Ed K Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:56 AM My Grandfather is the James J Kerrigan referred to as the author of "In the Bright Mohawk Valley". It was a family story and we did not realize that Documentation existed. James J Kerrigan was born in New York City in 1871. His father and mother were born in Ireland. I have death certificate. He sold sheet music and played the violin. Whole story seerms to come together. EdK |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: meself Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:39 AM Thanks for that, EdK. Please keep us posted if you find out anything more. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,HughM Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:36 AM "Gleann Dearg na h-Aibhne": so it's the valley that's red, not the river? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Jim McLean Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM HughM, You're perfectly correct of course. This does indeed mean 'the red valley of the river' and not 'the valley of the Red River', which would be 'Gleann na h-Aibhne Deirge'. So much for a former Mod Gold Medallist, I just copied his (Alastair Gillie) sleeve notes without thinking. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:14 PM First, a comment: I have stared again at my copy of "The Red River Valley" from the Piper Collection at Iowa, the one bearing the notations "Nemaha - 1879" and "Harlow 1885." Previously, I gave the second line as "I shall miss your bright eyes and your(?) smile" Looking again, I think the scrawl may instead be "fair smile". Second, a question: When was the first notice of the "cowboy" version, the one with the phrase, "the cowboy who/that loves you so true"? As far as I know right now, it was Carl T. Sprague's 1925 recording. A host of other recordings followed, including one by Jules Verne Allen in 1929. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,John Garst Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:21 PM EdK posted the following. ****** My Grandfather is the James J Kerrigan referred to as the author of "In the Bright Mohawk Valley". It was a family story and we did not realize that Documentation existed. James J Kerrigan was born in New York City in 1871. His father and mother were born in Ireland. I have death certificate. He sold sheet music and played the violin. Whole story seerms to come together. ****** I take it, Ed, that you are Ed Kerrigan. I'd like to learn more about your grandfather. You can contact me at garst@chem.uga.edu Thanks, John |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:28 PM i always thought it was a song about the english slaughter of the irish. in an irish county which turned the valleys red with irish blood something like the blood flowed like a river through the red valley i cant remember the exact words but its from the 1700s and was taken to america in about 1810 a irish rebel song, and has changed and changed over the years. thats what my granpas granpa told him while laughing histericly at gene autrey singing it in the cinema about 1930. he said its an irish rebel song about the slaughter of irish rebels by goverment troups in 17 somthing. my granpa told me this about 30 yrs ago so its a bit vague |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Thompson Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:37 PM English slaughter of the Irish? Really? In Ireland it's always seen as an American song, as far as I know. Incidentally, Hrothgar, for a Viking to call Gaels thieves is... well.... give us back our gold and unbugger our monks, please! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:46 PM "English slaughter of the Irish? Really? In Ireland it's always seen as an American song, as far as I know." i mite be wrong, or got mixed up somewhere its been 30 odd years since my gramps told me and hes long gone. i know there a lot of songs adapted for rebel songs like the sam song which is ghost riders. and visa versa |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:08 PM The Red River is rising. Folks on its floodplain in North Dakota and Manitoba are in danger as often before. FLOOD |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:27 PM The Red River of the North on the rampage again, but the Red River of the South is peaceful so far this year. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Dec 11 - 09:30 PM refresh |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,Emmett Jordan Date: 20 Nov 16 - 08:42 PM Many years ago I read that some Scots started to settle in a valley with Native American Indians, but the Indians threw the Scots out. The Scots named the valley "Red" for the "red men", aka, the Indians. It was sort of a lament but I do not know exactly where the valley was perhaps in Colonial times? Bagpipe type or folk song? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,miketod14 Date: 12 Apr 19 - 07:19 PM Hello, I'm trying to get in touch with John Garst. My name is Mike Tod, I'm a folk musician/ethnomusicologist from Canada, currently working on a 13-part podcast series on folk/oldtime musics in Canada, with one episode per province and territory. The Manitoba episode will be entirely focused on the song The Red River Valley. John can you please contact me if you get this at miketod14@gmail.com I had a few questions for you regarding the microfilm version of Lady in Love that you found! Thanks very much Mike Tod miketod14@gmail.com |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: GUEST,miketod14 Date: 12 Apr 19 - 07:39 PM And for those curious to see the microfilm of Lady In Love, it can be found here: https://archive.org/details/5552509/page/n763 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic? From: mayomick Date: 13 Apr 19 - 02:17 PM No chance that it originated on the Isle of Capri, is there ? |
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