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Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?

DigiTrad:
FORTY BELOW
RED RIVER VALLEY
RED RIVER VALLEY (2)
THEY CALL ME A MACV ADVISOR


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Spanish lyrics to 'Red River Valley'? (30)
(origins) Lyr Req: In the Bright Mohawk Valley (33)
(origins) Origin: Red River Valley (37)
(origins) Lyr Req: Alternate Red River Valley (43)
Lyr Req: Sherman Valley (Bascom L. Lunsford) (6)


mayomick 13 Apr 19 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,miketod14 12 Apr 19 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,miketod14 12 Apr 19 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Emmett Jordan 20 Nov 16 - 08:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Dec 11 - 09:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Mar 09 - 03:27 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 26 Mar 09 - 03:08 PM
GUEST 26 Mar 09 - 02:46 PM
Thompson 26 Mar 09 - 01:37 PM
GUEST 26 Mar 09 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,John Garst 14 Mar 09 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,John Garst 14 Mar 09 - 02:14 PM
Jim McLean 22 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,HughM 22 Jan 09 - 08:36 AM
meself 21 Jan 09 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Ed K 21 Jan 09 - 10:56 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 PM
GUEST 16 Nov 08 - 08:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Nov 08 - 03:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Nov 08 - 02:34 PM
Richie 16 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM
Richie 16 Nov 08 - 12:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM
Richie 06 Nov 08 - 09:59 AM
Jim McLean 06 Nov 08 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Nov 08 - 02:56 AM
Richie 06 Nov 08 - 01:07 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Nov 08 - 07:48 PM
meself 05 Nov 08 - 07:06 PM
Richie 05 Nov 08 - 05:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Nov 08 - 05:52 PM
Jim McLean 05 Nov 08 - 04:44 PM
Richie 05 Nov 08 - 03:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM
Jim McLean 05 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM
Richie 05 Nov 08 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,JTT 07 Jun 07 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,gullette 07 Jun 07 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,thurg 02 May 06 - 12:34 AM
Metchosin 01 May 06 - 11:58 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 May 06 - 11:46 PM
GUEST,Friendly Manitoba 01 May 06 - 11:23 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Mar 06 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,John Garst 04 Mar 06 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,John Garst 20 Feb 06 - 03:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Dec 05 - 02:33 AM
GUEST,Obie 07 Dec 05 - 08:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Dec 05 - 04:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Dec 05 - 04:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: mayomick
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 02:17 PM

No chance that it originated on the Isle of Capri, is there ?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,miketod14
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 07:39 PM

And for those curious to see the microfilm of Lady In Love, it can be found here: https://archive.org/details/5552509/page/n763


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,miketod14
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 07:19 PM

Hello,

I'm trying to get in touch with John Garst. My name is Mike Tod, I'm a folk musician/ethnomusicologist from Canada, currently working on a 13-part podcast series on folk/oldtime musics in Canada, with one episode per province and territory. The Manitoba episode will be entirely focused on the song The Red River Valley.

John can you please contact me if you get this at miketod14@gmail.com I had a few questions for you regarding the microfilm version of Lady in Love that you found!

Thanks very much

Mike Tod
miketod14@gmail.com


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,Emmett Jordan
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 08:42 PM

Many years ago I read that some Scots started to settle in a valley with Native American Indians, but the Indians threw the Scots out. The Scots named the valley "Red" for the "red men", aka, the Indians.
It was sort of a lament but I do not know exactly where the valley was perhaps in Colonial times? Bagpipe type or folk song?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 09:30 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:27 PM

The Red River of the North on the rampage again, but the Red River of the South is peaceful so far this year.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:08 PM

The Red River is rising. Folks on its floodplain in North Dakota and Manitoba are in danger as often before.

FLOOD


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 02:46 PM

"English slaughter of the Irish? Really? In Ireland it's always seen as an American song, as far as I know."

i mite be wrong, or got mixed up somewhere its been 30 odd years since my gramps told me and hes long gone.
i know there a lot of songs adapted for rebel songs like the sam song which is ghost riders. and visa versa


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 01:37 PM

English slaughter of the Irish? Really? In Ireland it's always seen as an American song, as far as I know.

Incidentally, Hrothgar, for a Viking to call Gaels thieves is... well.... give us back our gold and unbugger our monks, please!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 12:28 PM

i always thought it was a song about the english slaughter of the irish.
in an irish county which turned the valleys red with irish blood

something like the blood flowed like a river through the red valley i cant remember the exact words but its from the 1700s and was taken to america in about 1810 a irish rebel song, and has changed and changed over the years.
thats what my granpas granpa told him while laughing histericly at gene autrey singing it in the cinema about 1930. he said its an irish rebel song about the slaughter of irish rebels by goverment troups in 17 somthing.
my granpa told me this about 30 yrs ago so its a bit vague


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:21 PM

EdK posted the following.
******
My Grandfather is the James J Kerrigan referred to as the author of "In the Bright Mohawk Valley". It was a family story and we did not realize that Documentation existed.

James J Kerrigan was born in New York City in 1871. His father and mother were born in Ireland. I have death certificate. He sold sheet music and played the violin. Whole story seerms to come together.
******

I take it, Ed, that you are Ed Kerrigan. I'd like to learn more about your grandfather. You can contact me at

garst@chem.uga.edu

Thanks,

John


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:14 PM

First, a comment:

I have stared again at my copy of "The Red River Valley" from the Piper Collection at Iowa, the one bearing the notations "Nemaha - 1879" and "Harlow 1885." Previously, I gave the second line as

"I shall miss your bright eyes and your(?) smile"

Looking again, I think the scrawl may instead be "fair smile".

Second, a question:

When was the first notice of the "cowboy" version, the one with the phrase, "the cowboy who/that loves you so true"?

As far as I know right now, it was Carl T. Sprague's 1925 recording. A host of other recordings followed, including one by Jules Verne Allen in 1929.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 05:17 PM

HughM,
You're perfectly correct of course. This does indeed mean 'the red valley of the river' and not 'the valley of the Red River', which would be 'Gleann na h-Aibhne Deirge'.
So much for a former Mod Gold Medallist, I just copied his (Alastair Gillie) sleeve notes without thinking.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:36 AM

"Gleann Dearg na h-Aibhne": so it's the valley that's red, not the river?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: meself
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:39 AM

Thanks for that, EdK. Please keep us posted if you find out anything more.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,Ed K
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:56 AM

My Grandfather is the James J Kerrigan referred to as the author of "In the Bright Mohawk Valley". It was a family story and we did not realize that Documentation existed.
James J Kerrigan was born in New York City in 1871.
His father and mother were born in Ireland. I have death certificate.
He sold sheet music and played the violin. Whole story seerms to come together.
   EdK


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 PM

Cowboys came from all over; from Europe mostly English and Irish, but from the continent as well; from all over the U. S., some displaced by the Civil War, some from the crowded eastern cities, some working their way west, some from hard-scrabble farms, some escaping from possible prison time or worse. In the Southwest many were Hispanic, and there were also Blacks and American Indians.

Owens would be very familiar with the important German settlements in Texas, which still maintain their sangvereins; the Hispanic- Tejano culture in South Texas, and Cajuns who came from Louisiana to SE Texas.

Similarly, if one looks at the early days of country music, some of the best musicians were from the immigrant population.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 08:13 PM

"This would suggest a non cowboy origin?"

I seem to remember reading and hearing a few years ago that real cowboys (unlike their Holywood incarnations) were unlikely to have been All-American boys, and that there are several cowboy songs in Gaelic (no doubt there were some in Irish as well). I also have vague memories of hearing that c50 per cent of them were black.

And on the cassette of Texan field-recordings "Sing Me a Song" edited by William A Owens (University of Texas Press) quite a few European nations are represented.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:13 PM

The version in the pencil MS at the Univ. of Iowa remains questionable. The dates do not seem to be verifiable.

So far, "Lady in Love," 1889, also found by Garst, is the earliest version with a printed date; it was in a collected songs volume, so must be earlier. We seem to be dealing with revisions of a printed song not yet found in the original.


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Subject: Lyr Add: RED RIVER VALLEY (R. W. Gordon coll.)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:34 PM

Lyr. Add: RED RIVER VALLEY
(Last. 3 verses from R. W. Gordon Coll.)

1
From this valley they say you are going,
We will miss your bright eyes and sweet smile,
For they say you are taking the sunshine
That brightens our pathway awhile.

Chorus:
Come and sit by my side if you love me,
Do not hasten to bid me adieu,
But remember the Red River Valley
And the girl that has loved you so true.

2
For a long time I have been waiting
For those dear words you never would say,
But at last all my fond hopes have vanished,
For they say you are going away.

Chorus

3
Won't you think of the valley you're leaving?
Oh how lonely, how sad it will be.
Oh think of the fond heart you're breaking,
And the grief you are causing me to see?

Chorus

4
From this valley they say you are going;
When you go, may your darling go too?
Would you leave her behind unprotected
When she loves no other but you?

Chorus

5
I have promised you, darling, that never
Will a word from my lips cause you pain;
And my life,-- it will be yours forever
If you only will love me again.

Chorus

6
Must the past with its joys be blighted
By the future of sorrow and pain,
And the vows that were spoken be slighted?
Don't you think you can love me again?

Chorus

7
As you go to your home by the ocean,
May you never forget those sweet hours,
That we spent in the Red River Valley,
And the love we exchanged 'mid the flowers.

Chorus

8
There never could be such a longing
In the heart of a pure maiden's breast,
That dwells in the heart you are breaking
As I wait in my home in the West.

Chorus

9
And the dark maiden's prayer for her lover
To the Spirit that rules over the world;
May his pathway be ever in sunshine,
Is the prayer of the Red River girl.

Chorus

It seems likely that the last 2-3 verses were additions to the original song. The Gordon Coll. is in the Archive of Folk Culture, Library of Congress.
The first six are similar to the version collected by Sandburg from Gilbert R. Combs; Sandburg also added the three final verses from the R. W. Gordon Coll. (The American Songbag, pp. 130-131).
The lyrics posted here are from the Library of the Univ. Toronto: Red River Valley and The American Songbag.

Richie and John Garst deserve thanks for seeking out the MS at Iowa with its mysterious dates, which may have nothing to do with the song itself.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Richie
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

Hi Q,

Though very similar to the wording in the Fowke version you posted, the version from the Iowa collection is not identical. There's also an additional verse in the Fowke:

Oh, there never could be such a longing
In the heart of a white maiden's breast
As there is in the heart that is breaking
With love for the boy who came west.

There's no rhyme of hours (Fowke uses "bowers") and there are some other differences. They are very similar. Fowke could have known about this version and may have had access to it.

The issue here is the date: 1879 would be the first written version. I'd like to see some documentation if there is any. Where did this come from? How old is the paper? etc

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM

Richie, those are the same six verses I posted from Fowke (above).
It is an abbreviation of the nine-verse (plus chorus) version at the Univ. Toronto site, where it is listed as anonymous.
Red River Valley

It also is quoted in full at the ingeb site, with the note "some verses perhaps by James Kerrigan, 1896."
Red River

A copy is in the Frank Hoffman Coll., a copy in the Austin & Alta Fife Fieldwork Collection, Ser. II, MS Sources (vol. 11-16, where it bears the title "Prayer of the Red River Girl. Utah State Univ.
Fife Coll
Also in the Gordon Collection.

I will post the full version (the last three verses from the Gordon Coll.) from the University of Tornto website.The copies at Iowa add nothing new. The added dates cannot be verified.


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Subject: Lyr Add: RED RIVER VALLEY
From: Richie
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 12:44 PM

Hi,

on my request John Garst obtained copies of the two handwritten versions of Red River Valley from the Piper collection at the University of Iowa. One has, written under the lyrics, "Nemaha. 1879. Harlan 1885." He read this text is as
follows:

RED RIVER VALLEY

From this valley they say you are going,
I shall miss your bright eyes and your(?) smile;
But alas, you take with you the sunshine
That has brightened my pathway awhile.

   Then consider awhile ere you leave me
   Do not hasten to bid me adieu
   But remember the Red River Valley
   And the heart that has loved you so true.

Do you think of he valley you're leaving,
How lonesome and dreary 'twill be?
Do you think of the heart you have broken
And the sorrow that o'ershadows me?

It is a long time I've been waiting
For the words that you never would say,
But alas, all my hopes they have vanished
For they say you are going away.

When you go to your home by the ocean,
O do not forget the sweet hours,
That we spent in the Red River Valley,
And be true to your promise to me.

The fair maiden prays for her lover
To the spirit that rules o'er the world
May his pathway be covered with sunshine
Is the prayer of the Red River girl.

He thinks this to be a good and typical example of the form of the song that is associated with the Red River Valley of the North (Canada) and a romance between and east-coast Canadian soldier and a Metis maiden of Manitoba. This is probably the original setting of the song.

It's interesting that a song so popular and well-known would not have the first lyrics published. So here they are. Thanks John.

Richie

Thread #95992   Message #3268784
Posted By: Taconicus
05-Dec-11 - 11:56 AM
Thread Name: Origin: Red River Valley
Subject: Lyr Add: THE RED RIVER VALLEY

I've been able to obtain a copy of Edwin Piper's original manuscript of the lyrics to Red River Valley from the Edwin Ford Piper Collection of the University of Iowa Libraries with the help of Jacque Roethler, Special Collections Assistant at the University of Iowa in Iowa city (not to be confused with Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa).

The song is of course in the public domain, and since the manuscript is unpublished, the copyright expired 70 years after the death of the author, which would be 2009 since Edwin Piper died in 1939. Accordingly, the manuscript is now in the public domain. I've just posted a copy on the Web, HERE.

Nemaha and Harlan are counties in Nebraska (Edwin Piper was born in Auburn, Nebraska). I believe the notations at the bottom of the manuscript therefore refer to the places and years that those folk song lyrics were collected (Piper was an avid collector of folksongs). If the song was written, as is supposed, shortly after the Red River rebellion (1869-70) in Manitoba, this would mean that these lyrics (as recorded in 1879) must be very close to the original. In any case, this indicates that these lyrics were collected long before the 1896 version by James Kerrigan listed in the Mudcat lyrics (DT) section.

Edwin Piper likely did not collect these himself since he was not born until 1871, so these were probably collected during his childhood by someone he knew and given to him later. Perhaps it was a family member, perhaps his mother or father, who was also interested in folk music and collected them?

I debuted the song at the Hudson Valley Folk Guild this past Saturday, and it was a big hit - no one had heard all those lyrics before. It's one of those "classic American folksongs" (a category in which I include songs from Canada) of which everyone is familiar, but of which practically no one has heard more than a single verse and chorus. I added two words to the lyrics for the performance since the second line of the fourth verse from the manuscript does not scan, nor does it rhyme as the rest of the song does, and therefore I consider it suspect as probably not being the original lyric. I replaced that line (for the performance) with "Don't forget the sweet hours so free." I also sang the chorus after the second and fourth verses only.

The Red River Valley

From the valley they say you are going,
I shall miss your bright eyes and fair smile;
But alas, you take with you the sunshine
That has brightened my pathway awhile.

     Chorus:
     Then consider awhile ere you leave me
     Do not hasten to bid me adieu
     But remember the Red River Valley
     And the heart that has loved you so true.

Do you think of the valley you're leaving,
How lonesome and dreary 'twill be?
Do you think of the heart you have broken
And the sorrow that o'ershadows me?

It is a long time I've been waiting
For the words that you never would say,
But alas, all my hopes they have vanished
For they say you are going away.

When you go to your home by the ocean,
Don't forget the sweet hours so free,
That we spent in the Red River Valley
And be true to your promise to me.

The fair maiden prays for her lover
To the spirit that rules o'er the world
May his pathway be covered with sunshine
Is the prayer of the Red River girl.

Nemaha 1879, Harlan 1885
The Edwin Ford Piper Collection, The University of Iowa Libraries, Iowa City, Iowa
(The italicized words in the lyrics were added by the author of this post, 2011)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM

Sherman, TX is an old town, incorporated before 1850.

Sherman Valley, PA, received settlers in the 18th c., it no longer exists in current records. It was in what is now Bedford County.
I don't know if records of Sherman's Valley, Perry Co. PA refer to the same area, but there are genealogical records of 18th c. inhabitants.

Don't know of anything directly relating them to the song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Richie
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:59 AM

Her's waht I've found so far:

Shermans Dale in Perry County, Pennsylvania is the probable site of the Bright Sherman Valley. Published in the 1909 Bulletin: United States Geological Survey of 1899-1905, there was a Newport and Sherman Valley Railroad, a Sherman Creek, and naturally a Sherman Valley.

The other claim is Sherman Texas which is in the Red River basin. Surely Goebel Reeves, who was from Sherman Texas named his version "Bright Sherman Valley" because he grew up there.

Looking at the first recordings I'd say Lunsford and others from the Appalachian Mountains probably were referring to Sherman Valley, Pennsylvania. We'll never know. One author claimed (with no documentation) the song was brought to Pennsylvania by the early settlers and disseminated from there.

Any more info about Sherman Texas origin?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:49 AM

Richie,
I'll try and get the song translated from Gaelic but what I can hear are just new words by Alasdair Gillies with no similarity to anything posted already. Alasdair was making an attempt at singing in a Country and Western style, trying to 'modernise' Gaelic song to appeal to a wider audience. That was 40 years ago and may not have had any efect then but there is a much wider apreciation of Gaelic now .. see the new TV station Alba on Freesat for example.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 02:56 AM

The tune and form of RRV was used for one of the best-known songs of The Spanish Civil War concerning the bitterly fought battle for Jerama.

(from memory)
There's a valley in Spain called Jerama
It's a place that we all know so well,
It was there that we gave of our manhood,
And where most of our brave comrades fell.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Richie
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 01:07 AM

Just Curious- does anyone know where the Bright Sherman Valley is?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 07:48 PM

No connection to the subject, but an interesting book is "From This Valley They Say You Are Leaving," by Benjamin S. Persons. It concerns the Civil War Red River Campaign, waged along the lower reaches of the Red River of the South.
Portions of the book are on line.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: meself
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 07:06 PM

"Reminds me of the Chinese cook I heard in a small Alberta town who translated cowboy and pop songs into Chinese and sang them as he cooked in his cafe."

My SO is Chinese, from northern China. She surprised me not long ago by singing in Mandarin what was clearly Red River Valley, as she went about some household chore ... (In a large Alberta city, if another connection is required). Said she had learned it in her childhood.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Richie
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:54 PM

Jim,

Since this thread had the most info about the origin I put my question here.

If the song showed up in Iowa in 1879 it would be the first collected version and I'd like to know the lyrics to see if they related to "A Lady in Love" or "Bright Mohawk Valley" or "Fowke's Canadian version.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:52 PM

Jim, a couple of other posts here (and I think in a related thread) picked up on Gaelic or across the pond origins, humorously or not; my parenthetical statement was a generalized response, not specifically pointing at any of them.

Richie, I like your painting. Long ago I was with a field party (ecological) in the Panhandle. We set camp near a fairly broad valley, with a tiny stream (sometimes almost intermittent since the water mostly flowed in the sand), but which had deep valley fill. The stream could have been larger in the 1800s. Lots of wild critters where we were, and good area for cattle.
We were well away from the Palo Duro (formed by early Red River and its system) but still interesting country. The old JA ranch and others operated in the Canyon area and beyond.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:44 PM

Hi Q,
The original question (posting) was:

A Scottish singer at Our Monday session in Hertford sings Red River valley with a Gaelic chorus. He says he got it from his grandfather who had it from his father.
This would suggest a non cowboy origin?
Sweet smile,
Keith.

My posting above was answering it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Richie
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:50 PM

Hi Q,

Last week I did a western theme painting of the song. You can see it here:
http://richardmattesonsblog.blogspot.com/


I asked John Garst to check into what is being held at the University of Iowa, Iowas City, Iowa in the Edwin Ford Piper Collection. It could be the first version.

He'll report back later. If anyone else has that info it would be appreciated.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM

Re Richie post-
As noted earlier, the Piper collection needs to be re-checked. There could be more data.
Many of us, in going over old papers, or trying to remember when or where we got them, add dates which we 'think' are correct- the MS could be 'authentic' but the added dates the product of faulty memory. On the other hand, we know that the song pre-dates 1889, so the notes could be OK. We can't know whether the notes refer to a singer the writer heard, or printed material that he saw.

Previously, John Garst posted Lady in Love, from Wehmann's Collection of Songs, no. 24, 1889. The verse content is the same as "Red River Valley." Wehman published collections, so the song is older than that; but how much older, and which valley is meant, if any particular one, is not yet known.

(The Gaelic is late and has nothing to do with the origin of the song. Reminds me of the Chinese cook I heard in a small Alberta town who translated cowboy and pop songs into Chinese and sang them as he cooked in his cafe.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM

I have an LP of Alasdair Gillies singing Gaelic songs. It's on Thistle Records BSLP 65, undated but I think it could be 1965 suggested by its label. He sings 'Gleann Dearg na H-Aibhne' (the red river valley) and the credits are Music trad, words by Gillies. This dates the Gaelic words and the chorus is, Thig a'nal, Thig a'nal .... as suggested by Obie as a translation of Keith of Hertford posting (December 2005. So, depending uupon the age of Keith of Hertford's friend's grandfather, I would suggest he was singing Alasdair Gillies' Gaelic words. I will try and get a complete English translation from the LP but, as the man said, it could take some time. I hope this answers the suggested Gaelic derivation of the song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Richie
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:41 AM

What do you think of this? It's from Wiki:

The earliest written manuscript of the lyrics, titled "Red River Valley", bears the notations 1879 and 1885 in locations Nemha and Harlan in western Iowa, so it probably dates to at least that era.[2]

Fuld, The Book of World-Famous Music, p. 457: "A pencil manuscript of the words of The Red River valley bears the notation at the bottom 'Nemha 1879, Harlan 1885' and sets forth five stanzas. The University of Iowa, Iowas City, Iowa (Edwin Ford Piper Collection). Nemah and Harlan are towns in western Iowa."

Is this manuscript authentic and if so what are the lyrics?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 07:16 PM

Suain is a dream in Irish and Scots Gaedhlig.

Why does it matter where the song comes from? It "sounds" Irish to me - the tune, that is, not the song - but so what? It's an American song.

A few years ago I was on a bus, and standing behind me was an irascible middle European, one of the first of the flood of Poles and Latvians and Lithuanians and Estonians now bringing their talents to Ireland.

He was lecturing an Irish friend about how the tunes of which Irish people are so proud are "all from eastern Europe anyway".

I suspect that there's a library of tunes that's travelled from Africa to Greenland and from Ireland to Kamchatka, and vice versa. We are humans. We sing our song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,gullette
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 02:07 PM

I don't know if this will help or just further muddy the situation, but the LOC has a 1939 78-rpm Frank Luther recording called "Songs of old New York: 1650-1906" which contains "In the bright Mohawk Valley" (LC Control No.: 00727956). They have another 1982 33.1/3-rpm Robin Schade recording called "I love New York-- and I sing about it!" which contains "Bright Mohawk valley" (LC Control No.: 94758554). I got to these searching on "bright mohawk valley" at http://www.loc.gov/search/new/


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 02 May 06 - 12:34 AM

Getting back to the original post, which mentioned a Gaelic chorus - I asked Margaret Stewart, a Scottish Gaelic singer, about this; here's what she had to say:

Willie John MacAulay used to sing a translation of Red River Valley it many years ago - it may even be on one of his old recordings.

There was a phase of 'Country & Western' translations for a time when I was young - it may have been in the 60's or 70's. There was even a Gaelic tv programme with the same theme. It was DIRE !!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Metchosin
Date: 01 May 06 - 11:58 PM

Agreed, Guest Friendly Manitoba. There was a programme on the CBC quite a few years back with the same premise. She didn't "hasten to bid him Adieu", as an affectation, it was part of the vernacular.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 May 06 - 11:46 PM

The interpretation by Friendly Manitoba has been supported by Edith Fowke and some other Canadian folk song collectors, but not by everyone. Many support the Red River Valley in the Southwest as the place of origin for the lyrics, while others suggest the American portion of the Red River (the Piper MS needs to be checked). So far, all evidence for these sources is anecdotal.

Or is the original a parlor song, Lady in Love, the elusive Mohawk Valley, etc.?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,Friendly Manitoba
Date: 01 May 06 - 11:23 PM

I was reading your thread and thought these links might add some interest.

http://www.plainsfolk.com/songs/song4.htm
http://www.plainsfolk.com/
Some information about Manitoban culture and history that might shed some light on the confusion here.
Manitoba was originally occupied by the cree people of First Nations, Canada. Thier culture carried a highly developed capacity for sharing. Cree culture teaches that the power of this sharing capacity would ultimatly absorb all others whom it contaced. In this way the French who settled in Manitoba soon became the French-Metis, and the Scotts became the Scotts-Metis. The Riel Rebellion succeeded in establishing an independant (if briefly) Metis (which literally means "Mixed Blood") Nation.

Within this cultural cocktale there resides all of the peices that you have been discussing.

Half-breed was a term which was in common usage (including government publications) from the time that Manitoba was still a part of the former Rupert's Land and up untill the 1970's. Many Metis appear white, aboriginal, or show a mix of traits. The singer appears in each of these forms (from a white girl, to a dark maiden) depending which version you look at. The subject however, remains consistantly blue eyed (british).

That there might be some passive/agressive behavior as described in the testimonial from your list:
"Some years ago a friend whose home was in Montreal told me that at one time a crack Canadian regiment had been stationed in the Red River Valley locality. The officers were well thought of socially, but seem to have philandered among the Indian girls to some extent. The white girls, of course, resented this, and at a farewell ball given to the officers on the occasion of their transfer, the young lady who had composed this song rose and sang it, much to the embarrassment of the ones at whom it was aimed."

Frankly this is very typical Manitoban style (chuckels) not only the way in which it was delivered but the aditional practice of adopting a popular melody, making it our own and creating a double entandre to target a specific audience (in this case the british troops in occupation). This practice is rooted in a tradition of sharing, and is apparent in our music, theater and humor to this day.

The song "Red River Vally" that is sung on the prairies originated out of this specific cultural heritage and though we may not be able to take credit for the muse (if the melody was given to us from somewhere else), I would challenge that the meaning and intent have dramatically altered from the original lyric if viewed from it's historic context and that it becomes a different song than the one being sung in texas or in church.

A parlor song??? a love song??? these guys had thier way in the bowers of the entire Red River Vally!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 09:08 PM

Thank you for tracking down a copy of the lyrics to "Lady in Love." There is still much we don't know about this song, but your efforts are filling in some blanks.


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Subject: Lyr Add: LADY IN LOVE (1889)
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 02:17 PM

Thanks to Paul Charosh, and to Norm Cohen, who contacted Paul, and Ed Cray, who said Norm was the man to ask, I now have the text of "A Lady in Love," Wehman's Collection of Songs #24, October, 1889, p 17.

LADY IN LOVE

Oh, they say from this valley you are going,
I shall miss your blue eye and bright smile;
And, alas! it will take all the sunshine
That has brightened my pathway for awhile.

Then consider well ere you leave us,
Do not hasten to bid us adieu,
But remember the dear little valley,
And the girl that has loved you so true.

Do you think of the home you are leaving,
How sad and how dreary 'twill be?
Do you think of the heart you are breaking,
Or the shadow it will cast over me?

I have waited a long time, my darling,
For the words that you never would say,
And at last all my fond hopes have vanished,
For they tell me you are going away.

This is from a microfilm, I'm told, and we don't yet know where the original resides.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 03:39 PM

Gus Meade (Country Music Sources) cites
****
WCS#24(Oct. 1889), p. 17, 'A Lady In Love'
****
in connection with "In the Bright Mohawk Valley," etc.

"WCS" is Wehman's Collection Of Songs (NYC: Henry J. Wehman, 1884-94), 42 issues.

When I enquired of the Music Reading Room, Library of Congress, last year, I was told that Wehman's Collection of Songs was temporarily unavailable and that I should renew my enquiry after the new year. I did so. Sadly, I have now been informed that WCS #24 (Oct. 1889) could not be located and that "A Lady in Love" appears to be absent from all of the Wehman collections held by the LOC.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 02:33 AM

Come over, come over, Red Rover, come over!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 08:25 PM

Thig a'nal (hick a nall) "come over"
aig an ( eck an ) "at the"

Come over, come over, at the ??????????

   Sorry, best I can do !
          Slainte,
            Obie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 04:51 PM

Sorry I let this drop.
Since I last posted I have only recently seen Ronnie.
To recap, he comes from a musical Highland family. His Gaelic speaking grandfather used to sing the song with part of the chorus in Gaelic.
Ronnie does not speak it so only learned it phonetically.
Of course the old boy may well have made it up himself.
Anyone make sense of this?

Hecenal hecenal eck an sunia
Hecenal hecenal eck an sue

????


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Subject: RE: Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 04:40 PM


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