Origins: Red River Valley, Gaelic?

Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 02:45 PM

Only anecdotal evidence of the song in Canada before "The Bright Mohawk Valley" was written in the 1890s by James J. Kerrigan.

The song most likely concerns the Red River in Texas-Arkansas-Louisiana and the rich farmlands along it. Settlement expanded rapidly in the 1860s, and included the Valley all the way into Louisiana. It forms the border between much of north Texas
and Oklahoma.

John Clement Reed (Handbook of Texas), important in Texas history, farmed in the Red River Valley in Texas in 1836, and was one of the first.

Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 01:50 PM

Given the form of the song, it would be surprising if parts of it were not reminiscent of other songs to be found in Ireland (or any English-speaking country); that doesn't really get us anywhere. Neither, I think, does immediately starting to talk about Ireland whenever Gaelic is mentioned; the question here relates, it would appear, to Scottish Gaelic, and the suggestion would be that there might be some Scottish ancestry involved.

It must be remarked that many people have a tendency to assume that verses in Gaelic "must" be older than verses in English. This is not necessarily the case. There is a long tradition of translating English-language songs into Gaelic as well as the reverse, so linguistic evidence alone tells us little.

Sandberg's comments on original authorship (see above) seem to have been dismissed in a paper, 'The Red River Valley Re-Examined', in Western Folklore, 23, 163 (referred to by Edith Fowke in The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs and probably elsewhere). The DT repeats the attribution to James Kerrigen (as do a number of other websites) but it would appear that he simply adapted an existing song.

Nor does an examination of the tune help a great deal. It is widely known and has been much-parodied (I think that I heard it as a Rugby song long ago); on the whole, and without going into it in any depth, it strikes me as a fairly typical nineteenth century parlour ballad. My suspicion would be that the Gaelic chorus is a later addition, but it would help to know what the words are; that might help to indicate whether it is a translation of part of the song, or whether it has been added from somewhere else. Bear in mind that this song has been widely found in tradition, but never, so far as I know, with any Gaelic in it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 07:04 AM

i've heard Irish songs in English with similar lines

Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 06:46 AM

The tune was used for "Take it Down from the Flag, Irish Traitors" in the Irish Civil War. But I doubt very much if it was an Irish tune to start with.

Here's a page about the song:

"...According to Carl Sandburg, this song originated as "In the Bright Mohawk Valley" (1896) and became "The Red River Valley" in the western United States and Canada."

Canadian folk-lorist Edith Fowke shows "that it was known in at least five Canadian provinces before 1896, and was probably composed during the Red River Rebellion of 1870." And the people involved are probably Metis. (Some versions have "half-breed who loved you" rather than cowboy, and "dark maiden".

So it likely has "a non-cowboy origin" anyyway, even if it's not Irish.

Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:43 AM

It was first noted down in Canada (Manitoba) in, I think, 1895. It is far more likely that it was heard, liked and translated by someone who had emmigrated there. This happened a lot with the Welsh, and there are a number of Welsh folk songs still popular which travelled back to the Old Country from North America.

sian

Subject: RE: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 04:10 AM

More probably indicates that Gaels are thieves.

:-)

Subject: Origins: Red Riv Valley, Gaelic?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:05 AM

A Scottish singer at Our Monday session in Hertford sings Red River valley with a Gaelic chorus. He says he got it from his grandfather who had it from his father.
This would suggest a non cowboy origin?
Sweet smile,
Keith.