Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 01:12 PM

They are guilty of distorting the word "folk" true enough - but they are also distorting the word "original" as well.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: DebC
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:57 PM

I agree, Anahata.

I just do what I do and hope folks enjoy it. Been a great discussion here tho.

Deb

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: treewind
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:29 PM

I think you'll have to resign yourself to the fact that they are abusing the term 'folk' (or campaign for a redefinition), and accept that, since you are not a songwriter because that's simply not what you do, you don't really want or need to win a competition like that. Doing so might not lead to the sort of gigs that you'd want anyway...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: DebC
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:06 PM

Excellent questions, Marion.

So much of it is attitude and personal taste. In my opinion and experience, many presenters here in the US are not familiar with good traditional musicians or music, only acoustic pop singer/songwriters. Here in Boston, there are only a few venues for traditional or trad-based performers but many many venues that present the acoustic/pop singer/songwriter.

I suppose that if one takes a traditional melody and writes totally new lyrics you could enter it in one of these songwriter contests and I really don't think anyone would be the wiser.

As I have said the songwriting contests don't bother me. But a contest that has the word "folk" in it's name and excludes everyone who isn't a writer, now that is a case where my biscuits is burnin'

Deb

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 11:25 AM

In the Fleadh Ceoil competition Imentioned that'd be a plus if anything.

The truth is it's probably not possible to come up with a totally new tune that is worth listening to. Virtually all tunes have parents and belomg to families.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Marion
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 11:04 AM

Very interesting thread, folks.

It makes me wonder about the practice of writing new lyrics for folk tunes. I'm not talking about parodies but about distinct new songs, like Pat Cooksey's "The Sick Note" to the tune of "Garden Where the Praties Go."

How does this kind of songwriting generally go over with programmers and audiences that are s/s oriented, and with programmers and audiences that prefer traditional? Is it something to please everyone, or something to displease everyone?

And do songwriting competitions generally allow you to enter new lyrics for a traditional tune? And if it's allowed... is there any possibility of winning, or would it be held against you?

Marion

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 09:47 PM

You are indeed a woman of character and nobility.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: DebC
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:27 PM

Hi Brucie,

hehehehe..yeah, I have considered it and a long, long time ago actually did that kind of thing. But I am not a writer. It is not what I do. And the gig is not that important that I would do something I am not good at just to get in.

No..I'll leave the writing to the ones who can put words together ina concise way that tells a good story that is combined with a good melody. I always look at this two ways: there is so much good music out there that needs to to be sung or there is so much bad music out there and I really don't want to contribute to that :-)

Deb

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 03:20 PM

Deb C,

Have you considered co-authoring a song with a songwriter. You will both get lyric AND music credit, and voila, you will have fulfilled the requirements of the festival people and your conscience.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 03:06 PM

"For better or worse, the arts of singing and songwriting are lumped together more often than not."

For worse. That's probably the reason people tend so often to be disparaging about the songs and the singers.

We don't assume that guitarmakers are going to be great instrumentalists, or that great guitarists are going to be great instrument makers.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Willie-O
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 02:12 PM

I just had a look at the Songs From the Heart rules, which specify in regards to the recorded submission: "anybody may sing the song but the prize goes to the writer."

For better or worse, the arts of singing and songwriting are lumped together more often than not.

Well, there are traditional singing contests too, are there not?
Just not so many and they are generally only at identified "traditional" events.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Willie-O
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 01:36 PM

You have a point Kevin, but if you're organizing a contest you get to make up the rules! In fact you need to have rules.

And once there are rules, for sure some of us are going to take them to task.

That's why I don't go there...

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 01:32 PM

But why should a competition in songwriting be subject to a restriction that only people singing songs they wrote themselves should be allowed to enter?

There are great singers who are pretty poor songwriters, and songwriters who aren't great shakes at singing their own songs. It's always been that way, and not just in "folk". Not too many people would have ever bought a record of Irving Berlin singing his songs.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: DebC
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 01:21 PM

Hi Willie-O. I am very familiar with Kerrville. Not my cuppa, really, and it is pretty much understood by everybody that Kerrville is TOTALLY singer/songwriter oriented. I remember some deranged person telling me that they tried to get a Scared Harp session going at Kerrville and could not understand why people didn't show up. A case of not doing one's research I suppose.

I have been involved in some of the more singer/songwriter things that have surprised me. In 2001, I was selected as one of 24 "new artists" in the Friday afternoon showcase at the Falcon Ridge Folk Festival. Out of the 24 there were only two of us who performed any traditional material at all.

As for songwriting competitions, they are what they are, and that is fine for me. It is a competition in writing. I have no problem with that kind of thing as it is not making that assumption that Anahata referred to above that "if you didn't write it ain't folk".

But there is one festival that Ron O mentioned above and that is the New Bedford Summerfest. I would encourage folks to check this one out as there is something for everybody at this event. Disclaimer: I have performed at this festival in the past and know the programmers, but I support it because their mission is to present music THEY enjoy and not follow a "trend". There is enough trad, contemporary, Celtic, World..in other words FOLK to go around to make the whole weekend an enjoyable one.

Deb

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Willie-O
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 12:57 PM

DebC, I figured you were talking about the "New Folk" competition, an annual component of the Kerrville Folk Festival in Texas. Now, I have the same gut reaction as you to hearing those requirements, but I didn't really mind it at Kerrville (despite their use of the F word) because that festival is very strongly identified as a singer-songwriter event.

"Performer-songwriter" competitions seem to be getting more widespread though and I am somewhat bothered by the concept. But then again, I think I react more strongly because I just don't like the approach to music as a competitive activity--let alone the emphasis on becoming a friggin' STAR, dahling.

A few years ago, a well-meaning music society undertook to put out a compilation album of "folk" artists based in Lanark County. So they held a contest. (Naturally, it had to be original material. I don't think they gave any thought to making it otherwise).    I had two songs in the top 25, (the first elimination round) and neither of them got on the CD. My backwoods buddies and I came out with material that was too Lanark County, funky and funny and a bit rough around the edges. The CD that emerged was polished and bland beyond belief. That was the last time I bothered with a contest--now I figure, if you have an artistic statement to make with your music, or you just want to have some fun, go ahead and do it yourself. Don't submit it to a committee to decide whether it's worthy or not.

OCFF sponsors a songwriting competition called "Songs From the Heart", which at least doesn't misappropriate the "folk" term.

W-O

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 12:32 PM

In the Fleadh Ceoil in Ireland they have a competition for "Newly Composed Ballads" , and that seems an excellent idea, especially in the context of a traditional festival, and a living tradition - but there'd be no suggestion that a song would be excluded because the person singing it wasn't the one who wrote it.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: DebC
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 12:20 PM

I have been trying to recall the exact place where the solicitation came from (folkbiz listserv, folkalliance listserv, I belong to a bunch) and I cannot remember.

What I *do* recall was that it was an invite to performers to appear in a contest at the Newport Folk Festival (2002?) to find the "next folk star". Now, I must admit that being the "next folk star" is at the very top of my priorities :-) but when I saw this requirement about submitting an original song, I was a bit irritated. And as I have said above this is not a glaring exception.

This same discussion also came up a few years ago on the Folkbiz listserv. My good friend Bob Mills made the point about original songs vs. traditional material as he is a wonderful musician and, like me, does not compose. Unfortunately the discussion seemed to go nowhere and everytime it gets brought up, it gets into the usual definitions of folk, etc. and I have never seen any solutions offered either. It really has to do with changing people's perceptions and I am not sure how one goes about doing that. here on the Mudcat I know that the "choir" is listening, but it's a different story out there in the business of folk. At least here in the US, that is.

It was interesting tho, as I was searching the archives for the exact post to one of the listservs I did come across this one from the FolkBiz list dated 8/17:

"Just got back from the Newport Folk Festival--is it my imagination or is NO-ONE hiring traditional folk musicians anymore?"

and Mike Agranoff responded:

"No, but it's for sure that Newport is not hiring traditional folk musicians anymore."

So I guess I just blew my chances to ever be included in Newport, eh?

All the best,
Deb

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 10:20 AM

I'm so glad you shared on this thread, DebC. It's valuable to hear about your experience.
Well said, McGrath.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 10:01 AM

That really is absurd, and should be challenged. The insistence that traditional material cannot be "original" is oppressive - but the ideas that "original" in this context means written by the singer is just totally bonkers.

Even in terms of "singer-songwriters" - just check through the tracks on records made by some of the most respected among them (and in spite of the sneers, there are quite a few), and you'll find any number of songs actually written by other people, and credited to them.

Even in a songwriting competition it'd be absurd to try to impose this kind of rule - there are plenty of people who are a lot better at writing songs than singing them, or who for other reasons depend on singers who like to sing songs written by other people.

Maybe if you could let us have the name of this "prominent festival" which has the impertinance to call itself a "folk" festival, it might be possible for other people to get the point across to the organisers.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:33 AM

DebC's story about the Folk festival insisting on original material is fascinating. their cant be many examples of words changing their meaning to their own opposite in one generation. Other musical genre terms have changing meaning hugely, but at least a lot of jazz still sounds jazzy, and a modicum of modern rhythm'n'blues still sounds rhythmic and bluesy. But DebC's example is amazing, where songs that were defined as folk (or the songs that defined folk, to be more precise) in 1960 cannot be sung in a folk festival competition 40 years later.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: DebC
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:17 AM

That is what I do, McGrath. I sing lots of songs written by others and lots of traditional songs as well. Unfortunately when these organisers say "original" they mean from your brain and no one else's. One of my problems (which is a nice one to have) is that I know so many songs that putting together a set list for a concert is difficult sometimes, but I do have an advantage over my singer/songwriter friends in that I am not restricted in the material I can sing. But in applying for these special stages at festivals and some coffeehouses here I am excluded because I do not write my own material.

Anahata, you are absolutely right about the "covers" issue. I have eliminated that word from my vocabulary. It is always a funny thing when someone asks me (and I get this question a lot) "What kind of songs do you write?" I always reply "Bad ones."

But you know, they can run their venue anyway they wish, but I do hope that the discussion does not stop. We need to be having this discussion not only on Mudcat, but in the Folk Alliance as well as in other places.

Deb

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 12:58 PM

"Original song" - I would have thought that in the context of something billing itself as a "folk festival" this term should include traditional songs which had not been commercially recorded. For exmplke a song you found on a field recording, or in a book.

However, if the organisers perversely refused to accept that - which unfortunately is quite possible - than I suggest DebC could sing a song written by someone else, but which had not been commercially recorded. I don't mean pass it off as her own work - but "original" does not mean the same as "self-penned".

Have a hunt through The Mudcat Songbook (Original Songs and Music from the Folks at The Mudcat Cafe) (Note that "original"), and see if there's anything you like. And you're more than welcome to use any of mine.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: treewind
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 12:55 PM

Deb - it wouldn't be the first time I'd seen the view expressed that "if you didn't write it yourself, it isn't folk". The misguided idea seems to be that if a song isn't from your own personal experience then it isn't valid. "Only does covers" ... the whole culture and vocabulary is that of the pop world.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: DebC
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 12:26 PM

Arnie, I certainly can sympathise with that. I live in the Boston area and it seems that way here. When I was doing the open mic thing five or six years ago, I would be the only person out of all the performers singing a traditional song.

It just seems (here at any rate with a couple of exceptions) that trads and singer/songwriters have their own kind of apartheid.

Deb

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 12:14 PM

I would guess that at the Ontario showcases performances perhaps 5% or less of the songs or tunes performed were traditional. Maybe 10% in a traditional style (I myself played 2 original tunes on clawhammer banjo which would fit into that category) - the rest of the acts I would consider competant pop style folk singer/songwriters. I personally felt like a needle in a haystack - almost as if I didn't belong in what I thought of my music community.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: DebC
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 11:35 AM

I was thinking of posting this in a new thread and maybe the Joes of Mudcat will see fit to do that. I dunno...but it also seemed to fit into this one as well.

Last spring, I received a solicitation from a prominent festival with the word "folk" in it's name asking for submissions to their "emerging folk artist contest" or something similiar, I cannot recall the exact wording. This is not the first time that I have received or seen these kinds of solicitations.

My problem with this is that among all the usual requirements (which I can fulfill with no problem) is that you must submit an "original song". What bites my butt about this is that this kind of thing excludes people like me who DO NOT WRITE. I consider myself pretty firmly planted in the "folk" category, and I consider myself an interpreter, not a writer. But I don't have an original song, and though I have tried to write, I do not consider it something I do well.

Again, I want to see everyone coming together under the label of folk, no matter what they do. Even though I am not a native UK'er, I did live over there for a short time and go back every now and then. In my experience (and that may be limited), I do not see this exclusion being practised as extensively as it is here in the US. It was pointed out to me one night after I did a floor spot in a folk club that I was the only floor singer out of six that sang a traditional song :-)

FWIW,

Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 11:08 AM

FYI, here's a list of the OCFF festivals 2003.

May 16 - June 1
Niagara Folk Arts Festival – St Catharines

June 13 - September 1, 2003
Rhythms of the World at Harbourfront Centre - Toronto

June 14, 2003
Brampton Folk Festival - Brampton

June 20 - 22, 2003
Tottenham Bluegrass Festival - Tottenham

July 3 – 6, 2003
Sunfest - London

July 4 – 6, 2003
Mariposa Folk Festival - Orillia

July 4 – 6, 2003
Northern Lights Festival Boréal - Sudbury
Canterbury Folk Festival - Ingersoll

July 12, 2003
Almaguin Music Festival – Sundridge

July 18 - 20, 2003
Home County Folk Festival - London

July 25 – 27, 2003
Hillside Festival - Guelph Lake Island

July 25 – 27, 2003
Stewart Park Festival – Perth

August 2 - 3, 2003
Blue Skies Music Festival - Clarendon

August 1 - 2, 2003
Mill-Race Folk Festival - Cambridge

August 8 – 10, 2003
Earth, Air, Fire & Water: Celtic Roots Festival - Goderich

August 15 – 17, 2003
Trout Forest Music Festival - Ear Falls

August 15 - 17, 2003
The 18th Summerfolk Music & Crafts Festival - Owen Sound

August 22 - 24, 2003
Eaglewood Folk Festival - Pefferlaw

August 22 - 24 2003
CKCU Ottawa Folk Festival - Ottawa

August 22 - 24, 2003
Peterborough Folk Festival - Peterborough

August 29-31, 2003
Fiesta Del Sol (Festival of the Sun) - London

October 3 - 4, 2003
Canadian Songwriters' Festival - Guelph

October 23 – 25, 2003
La Nuit sur l'étang - Sudbury

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 11:07 AM

Well, Brucie, you might think "Blowing in the Wind" is a traditional song, but I dont. Arguing about what you mean by"traditional" or "folk" may be tedious, but such is life. I know and love loads of traditional songs, and loads of non-traditional songs. The difference is pretty obvious to most people. Whether they can co-exist at a festival is something we can discuss, but obviously they are different things: otherwise how could we discuss if they can co-exist?

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 10:53 AM

The festivals we are talking about here are the ones which hold membership with the Ontario Council of FOLK Festivals - the OCFF.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 10:42 AM

Here in the U.S. only a handful of festivals have dropped "folk" from their title, and those that have are USUALLY (but not always) gearing towards a different theme.   While we may have a hard time defining what "folk" is, I am happy that MOST of our festivals maintain their own character and MOST offer something for everyone.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Willie-O
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 10:26 AM

Yeah, I think this thread has run its interesting course. Last thing we want to do to prolong it is have a go at defining "traditional"--sorry Brucie, I'm not denying the validity of your comment, ESPECIALLY that as you correctly point out (I think) that question has been done to death over the many decades.

We just wanted to have a kick at the can in regards to how latter-day festivals which feature acoustic roots-type music can maintain a healthy balance of contemporary and trad-type programming.

Well, you'll notice that most festivals have dropped the word "folk" from their names, unless they had a compelling reason for using it.
This doesn't mean they're hostile to trad folk, just that they are casting a wider net than a label that many worthwhile acoustic artists don't identify with.

W-O

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 07:54 AM

Maybe I shouldn't have put "vs." in the title...read it as "and". Or maybe I should have put "AT FESTIVALS" in capital letters. I repeat: this is NOT about liking one more than the other. It's about the danger of losing one of them. EXTINCTION, people, EXTINCTION.

Sigh,
~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 08:35 PM

Regarding the 'debate' about traditional vis a vis singer-songwriters: This all sounds strikingly similar to stuff I heard in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and now the 00s. When the traditional stuff was written, singer-songwriters had a hand in it. Let's first define 'traditional' and maybe cull all those who think anything new is bad. Where exactly does traditional start and stop? Are we saying that tradition is formed when it is given the approval of time? How much time? "Blowin' in the Wind" has been sung by more people than Carter had liver pills. Is it now traditional? I hope so! If it isn't, where are we going to get new traditions from?

Just some thoughts.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 04:15 PM

As someone said, the cattle and the sheep ranchers might not get along, but I'd bet the cattle and the sheep do!

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 05:38 AM

I guess I'm lucky to be an old fashioned Brit, who still has access to festivals where the organisers care about the music, and don't spend time agonising about the genre labels to be applied. Anyone who wants to find a model for the perfect folk festival should come to the Sidmouth International Festival, where traditional musicians and singers rub shoulders with singer/songwriters, and all anyone cares about is the entertainment value of the performances. It's all about mutual respect.
After all, by the most basic definition of folk music (handed down the generations, rather than published), two of the earliest songs in the calendar, "Summer is icumen in", and "The cutty wren", would be classified as singer/songwriter material, having been published in the 13th and 14th centuries. My own take on this is that both kinds are necessary, and it's up to us to make our preferences known to organisers who can't get the balance right, either by voting with our purses (a language they all understand), or by starting our own festivals, in direct competition.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Willie-O
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 06:14 PM

So true, Kevin--you need to get it just organized enough to spontaneously happen!

I sent a link to this thread to the Stewart Park artistic director, and she's forwarded it to other OCFF programmers--I guess that's what they call themselves, it does sound a bit less pretentious than Artistic Director la la la. So if any of you programmers out there got this far, please chime in!

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 06:13 PM

That bit Willie-o said about the "trad Celtic session on a workshop stage" was just the kind of thing I had in mind when I was going on about fringe events.

The great thing about being traditional is that all you really need are the people who are ready to make the music, and a place to make it in.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Joybell
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 04:56 PM

Yes we aren't quite ready to quit here yet either. We have been managing to get into festivals with catchy sounding theme concerts and workshops. Within these we do the material we really love - some traditional songs, some old popular songs, heart songs. It's easy once we get in. Next week we go to one of the best little festivals in Australia. They told us that all our workshops and theme concerts looked so good that they couldn't decide which ones to use. They let us choose. This festival doesn't even ask for a photo when you apply - it's how you sound that counts. Maldon here we come!

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Mooh
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 11:17 AM

W-O...Nicely put, and I agree.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Willie-O
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 09:13 AM

I dunno, maybe I'm just lucky, or dense. we have two local festivals in our neighbourhood that seem to break all the rules and have a bit of everything. One is in the town of Perth, the Stewart Park Festival, last weekend in July--the other is Blue Skies out in the woods, the very next weekend.

Even in such excellent and varied programs as these, there is a tendency towards booking the HIGH ENERGY acts. Solo players had better be virtuosos and crowd pleasers if they expect to get in there (and the singer-songwriters need these attributes too), seems like everyone needs a band. This upping of the ampereage has kind of spoiled audiences, but there it is.

I remember the last time I went to Winnipeg, Dick Gaughan had a main stage concert, we got pretty close to the front--and found ourselves surrounded with Winnipeggers discussing their pension plans, since there wasn't so much noise from the stage. All they saw was some guy with a guitar and a Scottish accent. I'm like giving them all the evil eye--"don't you %^&*s know great art?" But in contrast, Dick was a very strong presence in workshops and in a mini-concert--a workshop-stage concert.

Two points: from the point of view of a festival organizer, they receive a huge amount of promotional material to consider---and a lot of it is very very good. It's harder to seek out particular performers who might not be the hottest thing on the scene right now--it's a lot easier to book the acts who are on the festival circuit.

Second, and related, it's incumbent on those of us who are trad enthusiasts in a local music scene to try to get some of it into the festival program. If not mainstage, remember they are always looking for workshop ideas, so get in there early with them. At last Stewart Park fest I bugged the artistic director (a friend) enough that she let me host a trad Celtic session on a workshop stage--which was enthusiastically received, but they'd never have thought of doing it otherwise. (Basically, I just invited a crowd of pub session players I know to have at it.)

Well that's enough--gotta go make a living again.

W-O

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Joybell
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 07:21 PM

Oops! Just had a senior episode! The word "Celtic" is of course always pronounced "Keltic" these days and not "Seltic" as we were taught at school. The other point I neglected to add is that the young spokesperson for the beautiful "now" group I mentioned was also giving advice on how traditional music should be presented today. Not just at folk festivals but everywhere! Scary!

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Joybell
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 06:36 PM

Just an observation about the marketing of "Folk Festivals" here in Australia. We have a new "trad and now" magazine. It is trying to present all that's going on on the so-called Folk scene and a difficult job it must be too. It does have articles by, and about, older "traditional" musicians, but the main look is YOUNG, GLOSSY, NEW, and POP. There was a long article about a young sexy group who gave advice on how to get booked at folk festivals. It was interesting reading I can tell you, and they were right! Spot on! They were exactly like the acts that make up the bulk of the theme-park folk festivals we seem to have here now. Not all festivals, but most.
Seems, if I want to be part of it all, I have to look young, beautiful, slim to the point of wasted away, wear the shortest of skirts -something vaguely ethnic, and do dance routines. Won't matter much how I sound as long as it's loud and I include words like "Celtic" (pronounced seltic and not the way I was taught)and they seem meaningful without being too specific. I will have to have written the words myself. A band of beautiful young musicians is preferable to a solo singer. Solo male is OUT! unless he's a blues musician and then one male blues singer per festival is allowed.
We do have our gatherings of old and young musicians, of traditional singers and singer-songwriters, of singers in sing-arounds, but they are rare at folk festivals. Some of us, particularly if we are isolated by distance, do feel the pop takeover of folk festivals keenly,not because we are no longer young and lovely but because we can't take what now is marketed as "Folk music".

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 06:15 PM

Quite possible. And for the cases Nigel gives, I'd agree. But "Not much cop" isn't what you'd expect from them. I'd have expected "Not worth copping" or something like that. I'd not be surprised it's got some other source.

"Cop" itself is on any case an odd word - it's been suggested that it's cognate with "capture", and that cop or copper also comes from that - but the vowel change from "a" to "o" isn't what you'd expect.

I'm wondering whether there might not be a Shelta or Romany origin.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 03:57 PM

"Cop" : as already stated, to arrest (from 'Cop' = policeman)or to grab.
In general usage also to get hold of "If you're coming, cop a hold of that amp, and bring it to the car"
Or to take a good look at "Cop a look at that!"= "look at that, it's worth seeing"
All general UK English usage

Nigel

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 03:36 PM

What I mean by a fringe is events happening that don't involve venues arranged by the organisers - for example, if there aren't the right kind of sessions or singarounds, find a place where people will let you run one, and get the word around that it's on.

In principle a fringe event could be anything, any size, depending on finding a suitable venue. One of my most enjoyable Sidmouth events was an un-programmed one-man show on a pub bar by an actor being Oscar Wilde.

Festivals that take place in a lot of venues in a town are perhaps more easily fringed, since it's just a question of finding a venue that isn't taken up. But festivals out in a field can have events happening out among the tents where people camp, or in pubs a little way up the road. Or out in the open round the back of the big tents, or in the refreshment area...

I suppose you might get festivals where the organisers came in stroppy and tried to shut things down - but that would turn it into a different kind of fringe event. Attempts by the organisers to directly shut down a traditional music event at a folk festival could attract a lot of support on the ground, I'd think. Just what's needed to give it street cred, maybe.

All folk festivals I've ever been to seem to have a mix of traditional music and less traditional, and that goes for the "big names" as well more often than not. And there also seems to be a general acceptance that if people want to put on something that isn't in the programme, no problem.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 02:44 PM

Maybe I've had my sunglasses on and missed it, but I can't think of any folk festival I've ever been to that's had a 'fringe' element. Could you please describe this idea more, M of H, and explain how it 'fixes' things?

I don't think we're defeatist, we up here in Ontario. We are tough and gritty, dealing with blackflies and Oak Ridges developers and insidious viruses as we do. I think that what we're doing here is describing a tendency/problem in a certain part of the country. If an issue can be described and discussed, there is hope for change; I think that the bulk of this thread isn't defeatist at all. I think we're comparing notes...seeing if we're on the same page with this issue. It's cheaper than long distance.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 02:11 PM

Nothing mecahnical about quality enduring, true enough. But crap does not survive (though often enough what might seems like crap at the time turns out to have been something very different); and "quality" has a tendency to get revived and bounce back to life, years after it's been declared dead and buried.

Anyway, I can't see why the people who don't like what they see as happening to their folk festivals seem so defeatist. We always get people quoting the old saw "If it ain't broke don't fix it", and it's true enough. But the corollary to that is, if is broke, fix it. I've never been to a festival that didn't have a fringe - aside from a few small ones which are all fringe. That's where to start.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 11:55 AM

black walnut: no, I certainly want disagreeing with, I'm with you all the way. Beautiful things are often very fragile, and need a lot of help now and then.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 11:28 AM

Greg, are you saying this in response to what I said (at 10:20)?   I'm not into museums for museums' sakes. Here's an example of what I'm talking about - not music related....the peregrine falcon. Almost extinct. Now thriving in country and cities. There's a nest of them on a highrise close to where I work. Peregrines are quality birds, but they wouldn't have survived on their own, without some help. I support the foundation that Just because they are old doesn't make them either good or bad. But the fact that they are amazingly wonderful old birds doesn't mean that they will make it on their own. Nor does it mean that only their supporters should benefit from seeing them or knowing about them. There is a responsibility in the foundation to educate the public about these wonderful old birds.

Am I making any sense? Does anyone see the metaphor? It's not perfect, but maybe it's a flight off the right cliff.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:51 AM

Mike of Northumbria: Duke Ellington also said something else remarkably relevant to this discussion:
   There are two kinds of fool, those who say "This is old, and therefore good", and those who say "This is new, and therefore better".