French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots

Subject: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 09:04 AM

For the second time a French pilot was detained at JFK airport for joking about destroying his airplane. It seems to me that we have a cultural critical mass here, when we put French folks through US security, now, what is funny here is that things work the opposit way as well, back in 94 or 5 or 6, I was working on a petition for federal acknowlegement for an Indian nation. I was coming back from France with all my notes in a laptop and asked for them to inspect the computer by hand rather than putting it through the x-ray. I had to calmly tell them to go ahead and call the police, when they threatened me with that, and at that point they let me turn on the computer and hand inspected the thing. Perhaps I should have made a joke.
By the way, the plane was canceled last night and two hundred folks had to take another plane. Maybe we need a pilot, a copilot and a humorless vice pilot on French planes for a while until things calm down in America.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:16 AM

That happened to an Irish hurling earlier this year, who made some crack about bombs in the luggage.

I suppose they must be operating under some weird idea that terrorists are going to try some kind of double bluff - waltz through clearance telling people they are planning to blow the plane up in the expectation that people aren't going to believe them. Doesn't seem too likely.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:56 AM

Or... humor is more dangerous than bombs? (Larry)

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: freightdawg
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 11:21 AM

I agree that there is a lack of humor among pilots and security agents here in the US. My example is of a America West crew who had a woman removed for making a joke about the pilots' drinking habits - this after two AW pilots were fired for drinking and attempting to fly a plane somewhat inebriated. However, in their defense, a pilot joking about destroying his airplane is simply not funny and at the least shows a certain lack of discretion. I would suppose that one thing the authorities were trying to verify was the credentials of the pilot - anyone can look like a pilot. Other factors to consider would be if he had been drinking, if there were some other emotional problem, etc. If nothing else, hopefully the pilot learned that there is a correct place to joke about such things (all pilots have a certain gallows humor about their job and the risks that pertain thereto) and there is definitely an inappropriate place. Can you imagine the public outcry if that flight was lost due to an unexplained reason, and some gate agent remembered hearing the offhanded remark? I, too, wish some of our authorities would lighten up a bit, but we have to be realistic. When a pilot announces an emergency to air traffic control and informs them he has "185 souls on board" there is a huge pit in the stomach of every pilot flying. Save the jokes for the safe situations where everyone can enjoy the humor.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 12:20 PM

Prior to 9/11, but when there were already inspections and such:

A pilot and co-pilot had some time and decided to go through security. A new, gung-ho, inspector held the that the pilot's 1 inch blade Swiss army knife was a "weapon" and confiscated it. The pilot objected, strenuously, but to no avail. Telling his co-pilot to watch his knife, he left the queu, went to his plane, and got a crash axe. Returning to the gate FROM THE OTHER SIDE, he showed the axe to the inspector, who told him it was a weapon and where did he get it from and how did he get it past security? The pilot replied, very loudly, that it was a crash axe, part of the plane's emergency equipment, that he couldn't take off without it, and now GIMME BACK MY POCKETKNIFE!

Even before 9/11/01 you couldn't crack jokes about guns, explosives, and so on in security inspection lines. It's not now; probably been in place for 25 years.

There IS a lot of official paranoia these days. You can't bring a small pocketknife on board or a pair of embroidery scissors with points, but you CAN come on board with a metal ball point pen and pencil set, your shoelaces (and even an extra pair), wearing a belt, and have large-sized paperclips in your briefcase. ALL of these can be used as weapons more dangerous than toenail scissors.

Besides, do something that endangers the aircraft and these days the passengers will sit on you!

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 12:31 PM

There was a truly disgusting story out of Dallas just after 9/11. An elderly woman was pre-boarded because of her age, and while she waited for the other passengers to board, she started knitting. When the crew saw this 84-year-old's knitting needles, they tried to confiscate them. She refused to give them up, and to make a long story short, she was eventually taken off the plane and put in jail in Dallas.

Just because she was knitting an afghan.

;)

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:19 PM

"...a pilot joking about destroying his airplane is simply not funny " Black humour is pretty common in all jobs, especially one's where any kind of potential danger is involved. Just note this thread, for example - 'The man who packed the parachute'

Obviously just because someone makes a joke about bombs that's no reason to exclude them from checks that would otherwise be carried out. It's always conceivable that there might be a double bluff involved. But the idea that you should carry out a check on someone in a way you wouldn't otherwise, just because they'd made some possibly tasteless crack like that is just bloody stupid.

Are the stories about people getting pulled in for saying they were "tourists" in an accent that got misconstrued, or for saying "Hi, Jack" to a friend of that name urban legends, or have they actually happened? Nothing would surprise me.

And do the people at the US airports still ask people if they are entering the country with the intention of trying to overthrow the government? I remember being asked that and being terribly tempted to say something un-tactful, such as "Only if the opportunity arises".

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:25 PM

LOL! And who wouldn't want to see "regime change" in the USA right now? (Well, yes, I know there are a few of you...)

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:27 PM

I've been asked if I'm bringing in raw meat or unprocessed meat products, if I'm bringing certain plants, but never if I am undertaking to overthrow the Government. But then, I'm a citizen and have the opportunity to do so every four years.

We were once bringing in shamrock seeds from Ireland, and gave the poor customs agent fits because they weren't on either the forbidden OR permitted lists. We were finally waved through as too much trouble.

Like so many other questions, would you admit it if your WERE going to overthrow the government? Reminds me of the scene in Richard Wright's book "Black Boy," where he applies for a job and the lady of the house asks him, "Boy, do you steal?" and he breaks into laughter and replies, "If I did, would I admit it?" (he didn't get the job).

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:34 PM

As to Frieghtdawg's comment on checking credentials, I think that is a good point, but a heartless black joke is proof of a Frenchman's credentials! So what do you do with that! A French piolot who meekly complies with silly proceedures is most likely an imposter! CHeers Larry

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:41 PM

I remember a long time ago flying into Paris and having my luggage inspected. The inspector came across my tooth powder (long time ago, remember?) which had a picture on the can in red on white of an explosion. He spread his arms wide, and said BOOM in a loud voice.

That type of humorous response is gone. Today the can would be confiscated and I would be arrested.
Can't remember the brand of tooth cleaner. They might know at the Smithsonian.

Recently I was flying to the SW. In Minneapolis they demanded I remove my roper boots. I am 80 and arthritic. I needed a chair to take them off- either that or sit on the dirty floor- and it was a while before the inspector finally decided to get one.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 03:45 PM

Can anyone explain the logic? Is it just that they are bored?

Or is the idea that, when they let someone through who blows things up, they can put their hands on their hearts and say "It's not my fault - I asked him if he had a bonb, and he said he hadn't. If he'd said he had, of course I'd have searched him."

In Australis I gather they get fed up with people entering the country who, when asked if they have a criminal conviction, say things like "No - I hadn't realised that was still necessary for people comonhg to Australia."

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 05:44 PM

Try some of these answers to questions you're asked when you're checking in at the ticket counter and see what happens.

"May I see some photo ID, please?"
"I'm sorry, but photographs are against my religion. Photos steal your soul, you see."

"Do you have any firearms in your luggage?"
"Why, no! Do I need one? I'll run right out and get one if you wish."

"Has a stranger asked you to bring anything on the plane with you?"
"My mother told me never to talk to strangers."

"Did you pack your bags yourself?"
"Who else would TOUCH my dirty clothes?"

"Have your bags been out of your possession?"
"Not since I got them back, no."

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 07:14 PM

There was a palistinian stand up comic in New York who brought the house down when he said they would not let him on the plane when his answer to the question was that HE DID pack his own luggage!\Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: GUEST,NH Dave
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:07 PM

We DO take any mention about bombs in airports or on airplanes VERY seriously here in the USA, and making these remarks will generally get the jokester arrested and jailed. This does NOT mean that Americans or American pilots don't have a sense of humor, however.

The following conversation between an American pilot and Rhein Main ground control was reported some time back in some of our magazines.

Rhein Main Ground, this is (insert your favorite airline's name here) 324 requesting taxi instructions to the terminals.

FA 324 dis ist Rhein Main Ground, Haf you neffer been to dis station befor?

Nope, Rhein Main, I flew over your base once back in '45 but never bothered to stop!

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: HuwG
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:44 PM

The Rhein-Main incident has gone into aviation history. The offending aircraft was supposedly a British Airways Boeing 747, callsign "Speedbird 206".

How about this one :

While taxiing at London Gatwick, the crew of a USAir flight departing for Ft. Lauderdale made a wrong turn and came nose to nose with a United 727. An irate female ground controller lashed out at the USAir crew, screaming, "USAir 2771, where the hell are you going ? I told you to turn right onto Charlie taxiway. You turned right on Delta. Stop right there ! I know it's difficult for you to tell the difference between C and D, but get it right !" Continuing her rage to the embarrassed crew, she was now shouting hysterically: "God ! Now you've screwed everything up! It'll take forever to sort this out. You stay right there and don't move till I tell you to ! You can expect progressive taxi instructions in about half an hour and I want you to go exactly where I tell you, when I tell you, and how I tell you! You got that, USAir 2771 ?"
"USAir 2771, yes, ma'am", the humbled crew responded. Naturally, the ground control communications frequency fell terribly silent after the verbal bashing of USAir 2771. Nobody wanted to chance engaging the irate ground controller in her current state of mind. Tension in every cockpit in Gatwick was definitely running high. Just then an unknown pilot asked, "Wasn't I married to you once ?"

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 04:10 AM

My brother, who shares a sometimes inappropriate sense of humour with me, was one of the early tourists to Moscow when the Iron Curtain began to lift. At Arrivals, he did a stage whisper to his mates "Where did you hide the bomb?"
They did a strip and cavity search of all three of them. He was not popular.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 05:58 AM

Steady on, stereotyping the French InOBU! Some of them are real prats....

I was going to say here's the latest barmy incident, but no doubt another's being reported even as I type: Farting toy causes panic in LA.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Dead Horse
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 07:26 AM

My guess is that the main threat to airline security is from journalists who try to smuggle fake weapons aboard, and tell the security staff about it at the time.
If I was on security, I would take any so-called joke very seriously indeed, if only to piss-off the jokester!!!

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 07:55 AM

Having been around bombs and people who were trying to blow me up, in an entirely impersonal manner, of course, I consider jokes about them to be sincerely unfunny. You think US airport security is paranoid? Try Tel Aviv.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 08:03 AM

Try Tel Aviv. ... which only goes to prove how silly all this really is... do we want to be as safe as the people of Tel Aviv? It is not about keeping a straight face while asking questions, it is abot a defendable foriegn policy. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 08:21 AM

I think that the priority of people involved in security at airports ought to be Safety, Safety, Safety. Their views about what is funny and what is not funny is totally irrelevant.

If they waste time and energy concentrating their attention on people with what they might see as a warped sense of humour, that just makes more likely they will miss the real dangers.

"If I was on security, I would take any so-called joke very seriously indeed, if only to piss-off the jokester!!!" Meanwhile Osama McVeigh walks on the plane, with a straight face, a neat haircut, and without making any jokes at all...

As for "Having been around bombs and people who were trying to blow me up, in an entirely impersonal manner, of course, I consider jokes about them to be sincerely unfunny", maybe this kind of thing varies in different parts of the world.. Jokes about that kind of thing were never in short supply during the Blitz. Or during the IRA bombing campaigns, for that matter.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: kendall
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 09:08 AM

Mark Ross has a funny story about Utah Phillips in an airport if he would care to tell it.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 09:16 AM

OK, I admit it, I am wrong. The airport security people, in Tel Aviv and elsewhere, should laughingly allow people with bombs through so that they can apply their marvelous senses of humor to air travel as well as busses full of children and cafes where birthday parties are in progress. And we should all laugh about it, before, during and afterwards.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 10:05 AM

You really think that real terrorists are likely to make jokes about the bombs in their baggage, art, and that focussing attention on at check-ins is a good idea??

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Dead Horse
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 03:12 PM

No. But real ass-hole journalists would!

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 03:41 PM

So what?

Everyone going on to a air flight ought to be rigorously searched anyway. No exceptions. If that slows things down, tough. If they just pick out the one's they don't like the look of they are more than likely to miss the real ones.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 04:35 PM

Frankly, I think we should have the choice of nudist - luggage free flights, where one's luggage travels on a separate non passenger airline, now, wouldn't Air France be the place to begin that kind of service? Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 06:42 PM

I'd settle for pyjamas. Or burkhas for those who preferred.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 06:51 PM

If I were a serious terrorist, I would be laughing my butt off right now at all this furor at airports, while I planned to ***** a ****** or ##### the ######. They have us spending billions at airports, and screaming at each other....now that's clever planning!

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 07:51 PM

Pajamas! RIGHT! And loaner teddybears for everyone! I think we're on to something McGrath, I hope this gets going before Dec. when I am off to Ireland!
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: GUEST,Grab
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 08:24 PM

Rapaire, you reckon that's bad, consider duty-free. I can use my card to buy a dozen bottles of spirits which will burn just fine. That lot going up is not going to do a whole lot of good to the plane or its occupants. And then there's the simple fact of the bottles being glass and ideally suited as stabbing weapons once broken.

I had the pocket-knife experience on my last flight from Heathrow, due to a truly outstanding bit of incompetence. Heathrow had neglected to hire enough staff, so there were queues the length of the building. I arrived 2.5hrs before takeoff - I got checked in 15 minutes before. This was now too late to get my luggage in the hold with the rest of the luggage, so I had to carry it to the gate and get the attendants to stash it for me. Trouble is, I'd got my Leatherman in my hold luggage (as you do, since you can't carry it with you), and the security cretins wouldn't let me take that into the terminal; neither would they (a) hold it until I got back, (b) issue me with a receipt to say they'd confiscated it so I could claim on insurance, (c) post it back home, or (d) carry it themselves to the gate and give it to the attendents themselves. In other words, they'd basically said they were going to steal it for themselves.

Mind you, US immigration wasn't much better. The conversation there went:-
- What are you doing in the US?
- I've come to do some testing on the software I've written for Ford.
- How long are you staying?
- A week, maybe two.
- WHY DON'T YOU KNOW?!?!?!

So in answer to why they do it, my best guess is that they've been issued orders and very few of them are smart enough to use intelligence in carrying out those orders.

Graham.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 09:32 PM

Graham.

I'm waiting for an Aussie to go to court suing the Aussie Fed Govt about having personal property seized without compensation - if the Govt siezes personal property, they are supposed to recompense its citizens...

as to "why they do it"

US capitalism decrees that people at the bottom of a corporate feeding chain get paid the least - so the people with the most important job - protecting life and limb and porperty - get insecure temporary jobs and get paid neglible amounts an hour... now if I was going to bribe someone to put a bomb on a plane... :-)

Remember the John Gleen joke he made on the launching pad?
"I've just realised I'm sitting on top of teh most cmplex man-made device ever, and each piece has been made by teh lowest tenderer!"

Robin

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 08:19 AM

French offiials can be just as bad as others as I found out in pre Al-Quaeda times when I said to the officer searching my bag: "Nice job you've done, you've found four of the five compartments in my bag."

Now I know a bit more about work conditions in some jobs. Many people in the jobs requiring contact with many different people do hate one thing: If the same predictable wise-crack is told for the fiftenth time a day and the person expects them to see the funny side of it. It is boring, utterly boring and they all wish the people who think they are funny would tell their jokes somewhere else.

They still should be polite but it is sometimes very hard.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 11:29 AM

Lack of humor from airport security and pilots? Hardly. Who do you think is getting the last laugh?   After hearing enough jokes about putting bombs in luggage, shoes, etc. - I'm sure that all the security services are laughing hystericallly now that they have a way of getting revenge. I can imagine all the pilots waving goodby as the plane takes off without the Borschtbelt comedian wannabe.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 12:59 PM

Last laugh is with the terrorist who slips through while they are wasting their time having that kind of fun. There's no excuse for not searhing everyone.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 01:49 PM

A friend of mine tells a story about a relative who some years ago was employed applying red lead to the bottoms of ships and so it rightly said on his passport against occupation 'red leader'. He had quite a bit of trouble at US Immigration.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: LadyJean
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 11:42 PM

There used to be notices at Airport Security checks warning passengers not to make jokes about bombs, or hijacking planes. If you see "Harry and Tonto,", which must be 30 years old now, you'll see Harry put off a plane because he makes a joke about carrying a Thompson submachine gun.
I had a bit of an adventure this summer because I had two pounds of cheese in my luggage.
I have a friend who works in airport security. The hours are crazy, the pay is low, and some of the men he works with are WWII veterans! If they're a bit stressed, there's a reason.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 06:33 AM

French customs officers can be some of the most bloody-minded I've met. Some years back I was going over to the Netherlands to do a series of gigs. We were going to be staying on a friends boat when we got there and partly because of that, and partly because it made a useful trailer for PA gear we decided to tow a very small (6 foot)tender dinghy. We had no intention of launching it in France, but before we left, it had to be registered with the National Yacht Association with a metal plate attached and I had to fill in a multipage ships manifest style form - ships stores, bonded goods etc.
When we got to French customs at about (2am), they made us completely empty out everything and even took the backs off the speaker cabs. They then made a fuss because it took us quite a time to repack everything. They even got funny because I'd filled in the power of the outboard motor as 2hp rather than in Joules or something.

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 06:37 AM

There was an old joke - about how to make sure that your plane didn't have a bomb on it - carry your own bomb on board - the odds of there being 2 bombs on the plane are statiscally much less than the odds of there being only one... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 12:22 PM

This isn't new, of course - I was reading a piece by Chesterton writen in 1922.

He tells how, when he went to the American consulate to get a visa prior to a lecture tour, he was handed a questionnaire which, among other things, asked him "Are you an anarchist?" and "Are you in favour of subverting the government of the United States by force?" (In respect of which latter question, Chesterton suggests the right response should surely have been "I prefer to answer this question at the end of my tour and not the beginning.)

Subject: RE: French humor and US lack thereof- Pilots
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 06:17 PM

artbrooks, the real joke is the way US airport security was until very recently.*G* Pity someone in the US didn't "try Tel Aviv" - or just about any other airport in the world - before 9-11, in which case maybe you wouldn't have to be so poker-faced now. (Though your refusal to indulge in even a little chuckle is magnificent and heroic.)