Origins: Bill Norrie (Martin Carthy) (Child #83)

Subject: Lyr Req: Two Brothers (not those two)
From: Santa
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:52 AM

Another request from my good lady wife, currently singing at Darlington Folkworks. One attendee has mentioned a song wherein two brothers go into a wood, where they meet a beautiful maiden/lady, who turns out to be their mother. This has baffled one and all - any help here?

I have searched the DigiTrad under Two Brothers, without any joy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Two Brothers, a Wood, and a Mother
From: Santa
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 06:25 PM

A little more: the brothers are hiding in the wood. One comes out to meet woman and is killed by woman's husband.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Two Brothers, a Wood, and a Mother
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 06:42 PM

Does the husband cut off the boy's head?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Two Brothers, a Wood, and a Mother
From: Santa
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 03:40 AM

If so, it wasn't remembered or passed on to me as part of the query. Your answer suggests that you might know a possibility?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Two Brothers, a Wood, and a Mother
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 12:15 PM

Well, there's Child Maurice (Child 83), but it isn't a close match. The two young men are master and servant rather than brothers, and although a meeting is arranged, it is the husband who goes, and kills the man he supposes to be his wife's lover; but who is really her illegitimate son. His wife only gets to meet the severed head. Martin Carthy re-made it as Bill Norrie.

I asked about the head as it ought to be the kind of thing that would stick in the memory, but I've known people to describe certain songs very oddly, and much at variance with what actually happened in them; memory can be a capricious thing. It's probably a completely different song that was meant.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Two Brothers, a Wood, and a Mother
From: Santa
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 03:04 PM

Thanks: I suspect this is it. Martin Carthy's name was mentioned but as the original requester had only heard it from another female singer, we thought that Martin's name had crept in as part of the folk tradition, rather than being a genuine lead. I'll pass the word back - but as the original requester was delighted to learn about Mudcat, I suspect she'll be browsing by herself soon.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Two Brothers, a Wood, and a Mother
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 03:18 PM

The text of Martin's rewrite is in the DT, as it turns out:  Bill Norrie.

Dick guessed wrong on the background for this one!

---

BILL NORRIE (DT Lyrics)

Young Bill Norrie's a fine lad, and he lives like the wind,
Eyes shine like the silver or gold in morning sun.

"Oh friend John, dear John, and do you see what I see?
"Yonder stand the first woman that ever loved me".

"Here's a glove, a glove, John, lined with the silver grey,
"Give it to her and tell her to come to her young Billy".

"Here's a ring, a ring, John, all gold but the stone,
"Give it to her and tell her to ask the leave of none".

"Oh friend Billy, dear Billy, you know my love for thee,
I'll not go to nobody to steal his wife away".

"Friend John, dear John, swing not against the tide,
Be with me in the scheme, John, for I will be obeyed".

John ran down to the high house, and he rang low at the door
Who was there but this woman to let young Johnny in.

"Here's a glove, a glove, lady, lined with silver grey,
Bids you come to greenwood to meet your young Billy".

"Here's a ring, a ring, lady, all gold but the stone,
Bids you come to greenwood and ask the leave of none".

Husband stood in the shadow, and an angry man was he,
"I never thought the man lived my love loved more than me".

He's gone down to her room and he dressed in her array,
Like some woman he's gone down to find this young Billy.

Young Billy sat in the greenwood, and he whistled and he sang,
"Yonder comes the woman that I have loved so long".

Billy ran down and down there to meet her as she came,
All the sight that he saw, his heart was still as stone.

Billy ran down and down there to help her from her horse,
And O, and O, he cries out, "Woman was never so coarse".

Husband he had a long knife, hanging by his knee.
He took the head of young Billy off his fair body.

He's run home and home then, and down into his hall,
Tossed Billy's head to her there, and, "Lady, catch the ball!".

She's taken up the head there, she's kissed it cheek and chin,
"I love better this head than all my kith and kin".

She's taken up the head there, and she hugged it to her womb,
"Once I was full of this boy as the plum is of the stone".

"And when I was in my dad's house and my virginity,
A young man came to my room, and we got young Billy".

"I loved him in my room in secrecy and shame,
I loved him in the greenwood, all out in wind and rain".

"I will kiss his sweet head, and I will kiss his chin,
I will vow to stay true, and I'll ne'er kiss man again".

Up and spoke the husband, and a sad, sad man was he,
"If I had known he was your son, he would not have been killed by me".

Note: An distant relation of Lord Musgrave? RG

Recorded by Martin Carthy, Rite of Passage

@bastard @murder
filename[ BILLNORR
WOOF

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Two Brothers, a Wood, and a Mother
From: GUEST,julie dawid
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 10:24 AM

i am the 'original requester' and yes - bill norrie is exactly the song i meant. thanks! quite a miracle seeing that the whole process of asking-group-leader-who-asked-another-grop-who-called-her-husband-who-posted-it-on-mudcat seemed to play chinese whispers with the whole thing, but it worked wonders.
good stuff - now i just have to get me a library card and learn the tune!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Two Brothers, a Wood, and a Mother
From: Willa
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 03:13 PM

Hi, Julie.
Good to 'see' you here; I told you Mudcat was the place to be, and Meg certainly got things rolling for you.

If you ask for the tune on Mudcat some kind soul will probably post it for you.

Become a member- it costs nothing, and you can then send PMs to other members.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Folkworks w/e, particularly our late night singarounds.

Regards,

Ann

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Two Brothers, a Wood, and a Mother
From: Willa
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 04:25 PM

Julie
You might be able to find a copy of Topic Record TSCD452 (MARTIN CARTHY, RIGHT OF PASSAGE),which includes this song,in your local music library.