BS: Where do Travellers Live?

Subject: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: jimmyt
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 11:29 AM

I have encountered Travellers in ENgland on a couple occasions, once in Stow on the Wold, where they were assembled for a horse fair. My question is, where do they live? Are they in communities of other Travellers, or are they assimilated in to other cities, towns and villages? Just curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 11:41 AM

I have some friends who are Romanies.They live in a house but still own horses and attend the fairs. They have friends who are still on the road or in caravans on council provided sites. So the answers are all over the place and yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: nutty
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 12:27 PM

Each Local Authority has a Special Education section catering for the traveller's children. This is an attempt to provide the children with continuity of Education as they travel from area to area around the country.
Many travellers still follow the traditional trades, particularly working on the land - vegetable and fruit picking.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 03:35 PM

There are tens of thousands of Irish Travellers in the United States. They are a hardworking and generally succesfull community. If you are interested, and can get to Dublin on Dec. 10, I am presenting a paper at the conference on nomadism in the 21st century, on the racialization of American Irish Travellers. Hope to see any Mudcatters interested in the subject.
All the best
Larry Otway
Roma, Romanichal & Traveller's Rights Project
New York, NY

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 03:54 PM

Tindale Crescent, near Bishop Auckland.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 04:27 PM

Travellers live all over the place. Where I live near Richmond upon thames they put their caravans down by the river on the saint Margarets side. I work with a load of gypsy's who have adopted me as my ancestors were itinerant Italian street musicians and also as I play Eastern european/ Django reinhardt gypsy jazz.
Jimmyt over here in the u.k there are various types of "traveller." Stow is a romany fair - a 'true' gathering of the gypsies. Also we have a class of people called "new age travellers." - they are an agressive alcohol fuelled bunch who move from town to town. In my days working in retail, we always had trouble with the new age travellers trying to knick booze etc from our supermarket. On various occasions they pulled knives on my collegues.
TRue romany Gypsies keep themselves to themselves "Gadjo with Gadjo Rom with rom" (Gadjo = non-gypsy. Rom = gypsy) you will find many gypsies parked up by the sides of road in country lanes not too far from a town/village. They have their own trades that they use to make money or exchange for food etc.
Check out the website: www.geocities.com/paris/5121/ (The patrin website)It is well worth a look. I have been stuck to it since i discovered it!
    pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 04:31 PM

I should point out, that is Dublin, Ireland... I understand there is a Dublin in most of the 50 States... Cheers again Hai baxt hai sastimos, agus manya louie... Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 01:19 AM

Had a wee Pal called Tommy Ross [a travelling surname---] in the N.E.of England , who died tragically young. Tommy invited me to his well appointed family home for supper, and during the evening offered to lend me his favourite transport if I wanted a different kind of holiday. He escorted me out back, and proudly showed me his traveller's cart. Tommy's calling had never entered my thoughts prior to that night.I confess to being "fair tickled ."

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 02:59 AM

Loverdy Place. The Police live in Letsby Avenue. Any more?

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 06:41 AM

Ah, 'traditional trades' - like block paving your driveway, and moving rubbish. 'Tis a simple life, with only two SUVs per family and a huge social security cheque every month to go with the cash from these jobs. Happy days...

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 06:57 AM

These days, travellers tend to live in airport departure lounges, waiting for their delayed flights. Others have been known to have been stuck in cars on the M25 . . . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 12:28 PM

I suppose an appropriate response might be "crawl off and Dai"...

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 02:39 PM

McGrath, Very Amusing!!

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Raggle Taggle
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 03:24 PM

Mcgrath may be amusing but but the one and only Dai is more accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 03:27 PM

And of course, all Jews are loansharks...

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 04:23 PM

Hey, McGrath, why bring us Jewish loansharks into this? Could it be that you're just a dour miser like the rest of the Scots?

But really, Dai, stereotypes are stereotypes. You can find some travellers like that, sure. But most are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 03 - 04:27 PM

Scot? No, I'm a irresponsible Irish drunk who likes the sound of his own voice.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 04:45 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Arnie
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 05:02 AM

Two traveller family parked their caravans on a grass verge near our village in Kent for a couple of years running. Unfortunately this was near a little-used lane where I used to take an evening stroll. Having seen the traveller kids using the lane as their toilet and leaving used loo roll to blow around, I switched routes! When the caravans finally departed, the layby was covered in litter, although some of this was shoved into bin sacks as though awaiting collection. Given that our recycling centre was only 2 miles down the road, I would have thought these families might have taken their rubbish and dumped it - they did after all own a couple of trucks for their tarmaccing enterprise. Anyway, the council cleaned up (at our expense) and then blocked access to the verge. I've got no problem with travellers if they clean up the countryside when they move on, but this lot simply couldn't give a s***!

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 05:15 AM

In the UK there seems to be three sets of "Travellers"
1 Festival crashing, untaxed and insured multi coloured bus driving, benefit claiming, and cider drinking new age thugs.
2 "Tinkers" who create mess and trouble were ever they go.
3 Roma who I don't think I've ever seen around here. The Roma worked in Agriculture travelling with the harvests from south to north.
Unfortunately the only ones you meet round here in Manchester are 1 and 2.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 06:21 AM

There are several traditional 'wintering' sites up and down the country where the Romanys and other long term travellers pitch for the duration. They usually arrive in Oct/Nov, depending on the weather and leave when the cuckoo arrives. They spend the time making things for sale and denuding the local countryside of seasonal flora for sale in local markets.

Other travellers try to find some place where they can do the same without being moved on every other day. Some councils provide sites with facilities.

Incidentally, in my experience, it's the new age 'Save the Earth' travellers who leave the most litter and bad feeling behind.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:18 AM

This thread gives me a very bad feeling as it has turned now.

I could gladly discuss people's littering behaviour: a pop festival in Berlin, a demonstration, some walkers, urinating males after sport events, and several more behaviours I dislike. In such a thread I wouldn't mind a story someone tells about travellers having shown a similar behaviour once.

But a thread in which we talk about littering (or other bad) behaviour of a small subgroup of humans (and them alone) is not at all to my liking.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Travellers Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 09:39 AM

I too love the notion of people being free to travel and stop for the night and park their caravans in safe locations as long as they respect the enviroment and other folks around...

Alas this isnt the case with the type of travellers one encounters in the London area. They appear to supplement their state handouts by a combination of "Fly Tipping" (Illegal dumping of builders refuse and anything else that they can extract payment for.

I recently passed a cluster of illegaly parked large expensive looking caravans with portable satelite television dishes outside blocking a lanscaped pathway in my part of London...they had only been there for a day and there was already piles of builders refuse everywhere, some of the most scary and dirty looking dogs you could ever come across and several small children running around looking every bit like Dickensian children of the Jago...The children were as dirty looking as the dogs and can you believe it reeked of cider.

These people were not the qaint mythical Romany folk one hears about,but I've never seen in London,or the Gypsy musicians of Belguim and France.

These folks are nothing more than verminous malevoelant illiterate urban terrorists in caravans,who if only they knew how to respect others would have a lot less trouble finding anywhere to pitch camp.

Please dont try to romanticise people who bring blight to every where they stop..

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Curious Cat
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 09:48 AM

Actualy isnt Mcgrath of Harlow purporting to be at least of Irish stock even if he prefers to live in Essex south east England.

I cant for the life of me think where the dour Scot comes into the discussion then "Thick Plastic Paddy" might be more appropriate..

CC

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 09:55 AM

There are travellers whom I loathe and despise too. They throw rubbish everywhere, leave chewing gum on seats, leave the detritus of their food and smoking materials everywhere and casually throw rubbish out of vehicles on the streets. So where do I see them? Who are they?
   Well most of them use the same buses and trams which I do. I frequently pick up their rubbish and remove it from public service vehicles. They are "travellers" alright and they live in flats and houses just like I do. Other obnoxious yobs throw their cigarette and sweet packages out of their BMWs and Mercedes. (People who know better tell me they are "respectable citizens"). It is strange what emotive reactions the word "travellers" can arouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Yuk Travellers !!!!
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 10:01 AM

Actualy Alanbit you seem rather confused as to what this discussion is about,or should I just "you are talking a load of commuters".

This discussion is about traveling people. Those people that specialise in making public and other peoples property their own for ads long as it takes to reduce it to a cess pit.

Y.T.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: jimmyt
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 11:02 AM

It was a big surprise to me one day after just arriving toENgland from the states. Stopped at a pub for lunch somewhere south of Birmingham. There was a sign on the door of the pub, NO TRAVELLERS. My daughter thought they wouldn't serve us. I explained that this referred to a group of people referred to as Travellers

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 11:03 AM

Yes, stereotypes, something I abhor. But I've never ever met type (3), and I sincerely wish I had. All the travellers I've met have been types (1) and (2) who often (but not always, McGrath) trade on the image of (3) in order to propagate a fake ethnicity so that they can justify to themselves a life of tax evasion, petty crime and vandalism. Discuss.

Sincerely, though, I do wish there was even a single type (3) around. Please point him or her out, and I shall rush to defend their vanishing lifestyle with my dying breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 11:18 AM

The travellers in England sound like a group of people I camped with once in the US. They came down to the river, set up camp, brought ovens and furniture in from the dump, and when they left, they left all their shit behind for someone else to clean up, in this case it was me. But I can't hold it against the entire group that they came from, because I am certain there are many good amoung them.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Travellers Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 12:50 PM

JimmyT If ever you had experienced the violence and intimidation this primordial species of itinerant can wreak you'd know why publicans (those that manage bars and public houses) refuse to have them on the premises.

Talking of special projects to educate them (which would be a miracle).I felt very disgusted at a recent case where a head master of a London infant school had sought to ban a traveler child from the school after a series of violent brawls in the playground involving his relatives and all sorts of threats of violence being made to ordinary parents of kids at the school resulting in small children being afraid to attend,only to be told by the moronic local education authority that his job was on the line if he went ahead with the ban.

TY

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Travellers Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 01:03 PM

And talking of those quaint Eastern European gypsies on hears a lot about we have plenty of these in London these days...

These charming ancient Romany types from Romania specialise in dragging their or one of their associates drugged babies along the sides of busy main roads and in and out of tube trains whilst pursuing their very ignoble proffesion of begging. I see them regularly with tiny babies in arm by the Side of Londons A13 coastal road in all temperatures.It sickens me to see innocent babes used as "Catch Pennies" and exposed to these obvious dangers by the roadside and in the extreme cold. We have a welfare state in England.There is no excuse for this. I suppose its just another qaint gypsy custom to abuse babies to beg. When I see this going on I fully understand why these primitives are so detested and unwelcome in their own countries.

TY

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 01:20 PM

TY:

It is just my opinion, but I personally feel that if you are going to spout condemnation and use such emotional invective -- calling people primitives, for example, and asserting that all Traveklers are Romanian -- you ought to have the courage of your convictions sufficient to sign your name to them.

Otherwise you come across as a puerile ranter, which is probably not true at all, eh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: C-flat
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 01:21 PM

Unfortunately the North East seems to attract only those fitting the "type 2" description. I have first hand experience of the problems they can cause and the agression shown to anyone who might object to their behaviour.
I'm sure there are still a few genuine travellers and there have been times in my life I could have been tempted into that romantic lifestyle but I've never met any of them.
I work in a socially deprived area close to Stockton on Tees and many of its residents live in fear of these people who, aside from the usual drive resurfacing, scrap dealing, etc, are also very involved in the drug industry and seem to operate without fear of the legal consequences because of their ability to dissapear without trace.
I have close links (family members) in both the police and local education who feel powerless to deal with these problems.
I'm not attempting to tar all travellers with the same brush but I can only speak as I find.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Travellers Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 01:38 PM

I am refering to the traveler types one sees by roadsides and on the tube trains here in London as very definitely Romanian,and I also am led to believe are real Romanies..

I think you will find that most of the Irish travelers in London will claim to be of Romany descent.

I am positive all gypsies,Romanies,Travellers (i'm not talking about hippies) whatever they wish to call themselves arent bad,but the ones found in London are it seems universaly gypsies without pride or integrity whether they be Eastern European or Irish or how else can one explain their conduct.

I am myself Irish by Descent and I think you will find the Irish themselves have gained from bitter experience a very poor opinion of their traveler folk. Compared to what many would call them "Primitives" is polite,after all what else do you call people who lack all learning but a cunning desire to steal their way through life.

Amos have you given your full name(I think not)So thank you for your suggestion but I would draw your attention to throwing stones in glass houses.

TY

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 02:56 PM

Frankly I find those people who cling to prejudice and group liable, to be primative and more, pathetic relics of the worst of human history.
No, Romani's are not Rumanian. We were slaves there. We are decended from Rajaput, from the Punjab. Irish Travellers have a different origion, equally remarkable and filled with historic pride. In Scotland and England Romanichals are decended from the migration from India.
To those who look down on Romani and Travelling people, well, just give back our music and we'll go home.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 03:10 PM

My full name is pretty well known in these parts, sir. It is Amos Jessup. When I condemn a practice or an idea as being vile, I always use my real name because it adds credibility to the communication. Your condemnations, in my opinion, are based on prejudice and stereotypes.

Amos Jessup
San Diego, California

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 03:52 PM

I would go on to remind the anonimous Guest, that when saying "who lack all learning but a cunning desire to steal their way through life"... it was not the Romani people who invented the colonial system which gave color of law to the pilage of the worlds resourses carried on by the non-Romani people of the United States and Britain. Two of the most rapacious cultures on this planet, calling Roma and Travellers theives. If only... if Romani people stole as much as the Kings or Queens of England or the Presidents of the United States, well, their would have been a much less violent history.
Shame on you
Larry Otway
New York, NY USA

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 06:48 PM

I think the point alanabit was making was that, when it comes to polluting and degrading the environment in which we live, by far the worst damage has been and continues to be done by housedwellers without any links with travelling traditions.

When a group of trvaellers, of whatever sort, leave behind them an unholy mess, the chances are that they have been moved on in a hurry, probably on that occasions and certainly on previous occasions.

I share the disquiet expressed by Wolfgang at the way this thread is going. And I agree with Amos about the people who like to snipe from behind cover.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:39 PM

Thank-you Kevin. I agree with every word you, Larry and Amos have written. I find a lot of the other comments rude and spiteful.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Travellers Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 02:56 AM

No all Romanies are not Romanian nor are all Romanians Romany,then I never said that was the case.Yes I have met qiute a few original Romnies(Indic Gypsies on my travels in Asia)They generaly make a living from training performing animals such as monkeys and snake charming as well as performing music on the streets. I have not encountered any who specialised in dumping Builders refuse all over the place.

What I did say was that the ones lugging babies around with them by the roadside and on and off tube trains here are definitely Romanian gypsies.It is common knowledge.Is anyone going to defend subjecting babies to the dangers of the roadside in all weather conditions and the brake dust laden London undergound system day in day out as begging devices "Catch Pennies" There is a benefits system here in the UK,asylum seekers such as these gypsies do get help from the state particularly when there are children involved. If they need to raise more funds there has to be a more decent way of doing it than using babies to gain sympathy.

Amos I am so glad you are well known,a veritable legend in your own lunchbreak,but why not try addressing the genuine issues in this discussion ie the blight brought by the so called Irish Travelers to every place they set up camp. If you realy understood how dangerous these folks can be you'd know why giving your name and address isnt realy advisable.

Poor Wolfgang still suffering the guilt of his nation after 50 plus years since the attrocities of the second world war and genocide,but a bleeding heart should not excuse folks who are the architects of their own downfall.Wolfgang all I am asking is mutual respect alas something the Caravan community (Irish travelers) who visit us in London seem to have no grasp of as a notion.

Mcgraw I dont think eviction from land that travelers have no right to be on excuses the dumping of piles of rubble and other builders refuse or the building of fires damaging the landscape/road surfaces they occupy.or allowing savage dogs to roam or children to run around sporting soars and bruises and reeking of cider whilst the parents engage in boozing, satelite television, and knocking out more unwanted anloved kids to perpetuate the cycle.

InOBU a spurious comparison between the entirely unrelated phenomenon of the Romanies and European royalty is not only ridiculous,but flawed in the fact that "two wrongs do not make a right" Of course the Romanies have their own versions of Heraldic hierachy!!!!

TY

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:09 AM

No TY... crack a book, do a little field work, find out the origions of your hatred. The point of my comparison is that Romani people, compaired to the Gydjen (non 0 Roma) are a gentle people. There are over one million Vlax Roma in the US, living so far below the expectation of rights that there is not a single funded organisation to see you their access of rights, and yet in the history of this Republic there are less than six murders committed by VlaX Roma. As to India - we all come from India, save Irish Travellers, who have been influenced by Romani culture with it's vedic origions, hence the Traveller saint, Sorcha Dorcha who is a Catholic interepritation of SHiva and Genesh.
The base vocabulary of the Roma you believe to be Rumaninan, the Vlax, is Hindi, not in the ancent pre history like many European languages, but 800 years ago, and as such, to people from India, Romaness is still recognisable as an Indian language. The grammer is Persian.
I notice that you overlook violence against Roma, from the forced syralization in Slovakia, happening as we speak, to the murder by mob of Johnny Delaney in England last June.
Well, funny you think that folk musicians have not had a lot of contact with Travelling people. Fact is, most serrious folk musicians spend time with Travellers to learn their music, as Travellers as a folkloric culture are great respositories of culture.
Put your fear and hatred aside and get to know the people you are prejudiced against and I promice you, it will enrich your life and provide you an education you can't get anywhere else.
Grow, it is what life is about,
Baxt hai sastimos.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:12 AM

Let me be more clear on what you call the spurrious comparision to Royalty, Your leaders have led your people to war again and again, as have the leaders of the USA. The leaders of the Roma have led Romani people away from violence for centuries. I'd vote for a boro over your Queen anyday. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:23 AM

I don't think anyone is in doubt of the fascinating culture and history of the Roma, last of all me. And I don't doubt that the Roma are a peaceful folk with a strong tradition of morality and civic duty, as are we all.

The question remains; who are the travellers in the UK who give true Roma a bad name?

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:55 AM

Here is a link to a recent thread that gives a different perspective on all this: Lyr Add: Prayer of the Traveller Child

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 08:43 AM

And who are the people in Britain who give Britain a bad name?
Todays papers carry the story of a bonfire parade in East Sussex the highlight of which was the burning of a caravan containing a straw family of travellers. Aren't we civilised.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:04 AM

Good on ya, Davetnova, or the good people of White Settlement Texas, who are attempting to remove the right to vote from American Irish Travellers. We are finally getting (slowly) to a point that Black folks are not asked to answer for the acts of a few other Black folks, while the majority community leads us to rape and pillage the world. Well, YT, how about Jillianwalla, where your people machine gunned our cousins in the Punjab, for not crawling on their bellies before British soldiers, should I call you to task for that? Who are the British who machinegunned football supporters in Cork? How about Jack the ripper, do you feel personal responcibility for his crimes? Frankly, I will worry about the begging by some Roma when the barriers to Roma being Roma are removed and nomadism is seen as being a choice and culture fully endowed with the same rights as the settled majority.
All the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:18 AM

So is no-one going to answer my question?

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:29 AM

Dai,

It's probably fly-tippers from the non-travelling "community" taking advantage of the bad reputation of travellers (not just Roma, but Travellers as well). A few weeks ago some Travellers had stopped in Becton with two caravans and were selling mattresses and duvets. They hadn't been there a couple of hours before someone dumped a load of rubble by them. Just a driver saving the cost of using the nearby council refuse site and passing the cost of disposal onto rate payers and the blame onto the Travellers.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Arnie
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:40 AM

This thread is getting confusing! The itinerant drive-layers/scrap-dealers who happen to dwell in caravans have nothing in common with the Roma who we remember selling heather and clothes pegs and sitting round fires singing gypsy songs of an evening - the sort Ewan McColl sang about in Forty Foot trailer. InOBU -I simply cannot imagine what songs and Traveller history I would learn from the two blokes who offered to tarmac my drive a couple of years ago - I did however learn where they dumped the excess tarmac and concrete - in our field!!

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 10:08 AM

Well Arnie: Check the album notes on, just a for instance, Annie Brigg's recordings, then check how many of the songs she learned from the Traveller community she passed on to Plaxty - DeDannan, Paul Brady and all the other bands she influenced, check the album notes on the old folkways recordings of Traveller music and you will find many of the Scottish ballads sung today have been passed down to you through the Traveller community. Travellers have become more reclusive due to the kind of prejudice vissable in this thread. As a result, one cannot just drop in and grab a tune or two. But, being a good neighbor to Travellers, will put you in remarkable cercumstances. In the US, most writers believe that the Traveller community has not kept the music alive, and yet, I was at a Romanichal wedding, a while back, and was surprised to find, even among teanagers, a huge repitory of ballads. I heard a great version of the Butcher Boy from a young Romanichal man, in his late teens.
But, you who put the walls up, suffer the cultureal loss, and often are too closed to know or apriciate what you are missing.
As to the pavers you mention... some in fact, are Romanichal and are completely a Romani people, speaking the same root language, for example the word for dog, Zhukle in Vlax Romaness is Yukle in Romanichal, or in the origion storries and some other traditions you see cultureal drift from the Romanichal community into the Irish Traveller community. So, just because you are unaware of a connection, you may concider not being dissmissive that a conection exists. Irish Travellers have a separate origion, but as both were racialized as "Gypsy" the two communities have interacted for centuries. New Age Travellers are a different matter, and to my knowlege they are not pavers. In the US, folks refered to as refs, a sort of proto new age Traveller, in that they fell in with Travellers over a few generations, are sometimes pavers, but, they also can become more an more Traveller in culture as generations pass.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Travellers Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 10:22 AM

InOBU thanx for the history lesson not that I understood much of it or saw the relevance.

Read whats on the page I am refering to two types of so called traveler found in London..Firstly the Romanian ones who use babies as a a way of extracting sympathy to beg money. Is this a proud tradition of your Romany People.They plant themselves in already overcrowded UK and pay us back for our kindness by claiming social security whilst openly abusing babies on the streets.What else do you call subjecting tiny infants to freezing cold temperatures and all the hazards of roadside begging.

I am also refering to the more serious problem presented by the Irish traveler community who are almost always violent,given to drunken behaviour,and responsible for much of the illegal dumping in the London area,not to mention rip off tarmac laying. As Arnie said you realy wont learn many quaint gypsy chords or history of a noble people from these scoundrels.

TY

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 11:09 AM

Arnie - The Thirty Foot Trailer comes from MacColl's Radio Ballad The Travelling People. There is another song titled The Gypsy he's a Gentleman which debunks the myth that travellers of pure Romany descent are much more honourable and don't bother "normal" people in the way that "diddycois" and other travelling "gaujos" do.

I'm afraid that these days, in many rural communities, travellers of various sorts are becoming a considerable threat to law and order. I deplore the bonfire event at Firle, but I'm afraid that some travellers are getting a very bad name for the community and creating much annoyance and hatred in certain areas. On the other hand it is usual for Kent/Sussex bonfire societies to burn effigies of the people they dislike - is it really that much worse than burning Maggie or Tony ?

I know of one commercial caravan site where travellers broke down the surrounding fence and moved in. It took several weeks to get them evicted and in that time the facilities were completely wrecked, site lighting, plumbing, and general electrical fittings were stolen and the site put out of commission for quite a time. The retired couple who ran the site have now sold up. I gather that this is not an isolated incident.

I can think of events at two folk festivals recently where there have been problems with travellers on the camp sites. At Walton-on-the-Naze in 2002, travellers took over what was to have been the main camp site, forcing all the festival folkies onto the overflow one. This year, the Kent and East Sussex Railway refused to allow camping in their car park at Tenterden, because the previous year some travellers had refused to move on after the festival. Luckily a friendly station-master and farmer allowed us to have access to a field further down, or most of us would have turned round and gone home. I can see this problem causing other festivals grief in the future - campsite attendants wouldn't be able to stop them - especially if the fences were pulled down.

Courts find it very difficult to prosecute travellers for these offences, but how many people here would expect to get away with them ?

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 11:16 AM

and another thing - of all the professions they could take up, why paving?

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 11:19 AM

Aren't "normal" people wonderful...

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Travellers Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 11:28 AM

Dai probably because its easy to steal tarmac and paving tiles.

There has developed a sizable problem of theft of historical pavements. from Churches,Historical buildings and streets that have all become prey to theives. Not that i'm exclusively blaiming travelers for this activity,its rather above their sphere of knowledge..and is probably the work of more specialised crooks,but tarmac yes thats easy to nickand well within their scope.

TY

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Travellers Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 11:30 AM

Mcgraw are you a "Normal Person" ???

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 11:53 AM

In this particular environment, I would be loath to "out" the number of traditional musicians who are, not of Traveller background, but are a product of the living culture. The reason I would not, is that other than a few heroic exeptions, most great Traveller musicians keep silent about their heritage for concern over the kind of blaitant prejudice we see in this post. Frankly British and Irish traditional music would be poorer by great amounts without the Traveller community.
As to blacktoping and theift, the reason for blacktoping is that, like knife sharpening was, like coopersmithing was, like horse doctoring was, it is a trade which can be done by a seminomadic community. It is also one, that here in the US, Travellers employ state of the art methods and the best quality materials and methods, and yet are still hounded and wrongfully prosicuted by municipal bigots. Let me give you an example, a Romanichal family called me - the husband was being threatened with ten years in jail if he did not plead down to a lesser charge for blacktoping six driveways. He was fully licenced and there were no complaints against him. In order to keep Travellers out of the town, the police went to each of his coustomers, after having empounded his Trailer, his blacktoping machinery, everything he owned, and using his excellent buiness records, sent an "inspector" to all his jobs. The inspector was a blacktoper in the employ of the town. He told the happy coustomers that their driveways were a quarter inch less thick than industry standards and would not stand up to use over the short term. This all was two years ago. The prosicuter has told my friend that he will be tried as a member of a criminal syndicate "Irish Travellers" (though he is in fact a Romanichal) and would get a minimum 10 years for racketeering - ie: his ethnicity. Now, my friend refuses to plead and the town has yet to charge him, but continues to hold everything he owns, and as a result has reduced this gentleman to a state of poverty and ill health, he is an older man under tremenous stress over this.
So, this is one of a host of storries that I investigate every year. My intern went to the driveways, two years later they look like new and the home owners feel the town lied to them, telling them the job was bad and if they go along with the town, they will get their money back. In the mean time, the street in front of one of the driveways was paved by the "inspector" The cracks are vissable in my intern's photographs, which if you all wish to come to Dublin in December, I will show you.
Well... I don't mind ignorence, I do mind a closed mind and one with no interest in finding out why things are the way they are, not "Oh... why do 'Gypsies' beg" but askes, "who are the Roma and how can we understand each other better".
Frankly, I am surprised Roma have forgiven as much as has been forgiven, from the genocide of King James, to the ovens of Germany, to the walled ghettos of today's eastern Europe to the programs in Rumania in this generation.
Walk in someone's shoes awhile and you may learn a thing or two
Develessa
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 12:54 PM

Now if we had someone signing in as "GUEST,Jews Yuk !!!!!!" or "GUEST, Blacks Yuk !!!!!!" or GUEST, Pakis Yuk !!!!!!"...

I don't think they'd be there too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Travellers Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 02:51 AM

InOBU,

I have personal experienceof the Irish Traveller community having witnessed their daily in London and Ireland.

I do not object one iota to the nomadic or any alternative lifestyle that respects others and the enviroment.What I do object to is the degenerate behaviour of this backward seemingly amoral class of people who seem to bring abject misery every where the encamp.

I have not only immigrant friends,but i'm married to one which not only doesnt leave me with a rosey tinted view of the problems we are confronted with here regards the mass immigration to the UK, and our wholely inadequate aslylum laws,but gives me a pretty good understanding of people from other cultures who enrich our society,but one would hope this could be done without swamping us indigenous folk and overburdening our infrastructure as is happening today.London has more Irish in than Ireland. Most are hardworking honest decent folk who just get on with their lives leaving others to do the same.The traveller community colonise for as long as they can every place they stop. Then they reduce it to a rubbish dump i'm sorry to say this the not the way to live a peaceful life.As for the eastern european Romanian gypsies we see in London with babies in arm begging on the streets could they not do like other asylum seekers if they need to supplement their social security payments by working on the black market cleaning,waiting tables or selling something. I can assure you my asylum seeking friends would never subject their children to the hazards of begging they are far too willing to do an honest days work.

TY...

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 01:24 PM

TY, Here is an idea... Why don't you, for the sake of a bit of personal growth, if not to become more secure in your convictions, take a few days in Dublin from Dec. 10 - 14. Come to the conference on nomadism in the 21st century and see the world from the "others" point of view. If it does not change you, you will at least catch a great concert by Paddy Keenan, and I will buy you a pint at Slatery's.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Travellers Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 04:44 AM

Thanx for the offer Larry,

But I've been over twice this year my budget and time wont stand it.

Look angry as I am about what I've seen of the traveller community...I have no doubt there is a great deal of beauty in the wider Romaany world. One does see the occassional permanent traveller site where things seem to be running peacefully (theres one next to Kentish Town west train station in north west London that seems to have toddled along without too many problems for several years)

Yes its difficult being a nomad in an overpopulated society like Britain,but how less difficult it could be if only the Irish traveller community was to embrace the idea of keeping where they pitch camp clean. Its going to take a long time for the non nomadic and traveller society to start trusting one another,but taking the offensive behaviour out of the travellers conduct would do wonders to smooth things along..Britain tolerates people from every corner of the planet with minimal occurences of civil disorder so hopefully time will be the resolver of the problems presented by the traveller community.Wider society has sought to put anti discriminatory mechanisms in progress its a continuous learning process,lets hope the Irish travellers can learn too.

Larry have fun in Dublin.

Cheers..

TY

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 10:25 AM

Ah TY, now we are getting to that common ground. Yes, civil rights in a enlightened society IS a process. But it is a bilateral conversation. So, in hoping that the "Travellers" can learn as well, let us add the hopes that the Gadjen or Country Folk (non- Romani's - litterally "civilians" in Hindi, non-Travellers in US Travellers parlience) can learn as well. The expectation that the same mechanisms of social inclution work for all is a flaw in your approach common in many if not most complex societies. Acceptence of "other" is more found in non-western and non-comodity societies, though such acceptence is not a universal among these societies. Among many Algonquin origional nations in the US, this acceptence takes the form of creation of new communities when consensus breaks down in a community. It is this kind of respect for bounderies which can put you in respectful enough a possition to be a valuble intermediary in creating understanding between two communities, such as the Travellers and settled communities.
If you stop approaching the difference between you and your neighbors with terms like Yuk, or even why? But, with the degree of... well, let's see. When you take a person who has grown up in the ordered "clean" life of the city, and have that person spend a while on a farm, up to the ankles in mud and fertalizer, Yuk would be understandable, but the farm family, who have a sence of place would think, "spoiled city brat." THen take that same farm family and have them visit New York in July, or Cardiff when they are toasting the hops at the brewery, and well, Yuk! and the city folks say, "Look at the hicks." There is a wonderful mosaic of human life, geneticly remarkably alike and culturaly fantasticly different. Now, when there is conflicts of cultures, new cultural forms emerge. Being a part of it is a wonderful thing, enriching, enlightening, (not financaly enrichinging I should add woefully...)
But, let me give you an example of acceptence. I hope my retelling of Richard's story does justice to my origional hearing. I was working with a maritime blacksmyth from England named Richard Futrel. One day he related a story about getting his first motorbike. "When I was a boy, seasonaly, the margins of the road whould always have a line of horse drawn wagons, and you just took it for granted. I don't even remember when it became rare then ended. Then, one summer I had my first bike. You know that freedom you feel, off on your own over the roads for the first time. Well, one day I was passing a small lane, and started up it. I noticed wheal ruts and thought to my self, Ah, I know what I will find up this path, and I got off and walked the bike. After a while I came to a circle of wagons with their owners cooking their dinner around an open fire. I took in the sceene for a little bit and then backed out, without anouncing my presence, you see Larryboy, that was their time, and it was wonderful just to see them."
Richard over the years picked up fiddle tunes from Travellers, and I am sure it was the respect shown above that opened him to that. Travelling people have enriched both our lives to a degree I can't explain, you have to live it. Next time you find your self repulsed or in conflict with Travellers, try an unexpected act of kindness, bring some food over, don't pry, just be present. They may open up to you about their feelings towards your community some day, and in that dialogue you can find common ground enough to reach an understanding of what you need to feel comfortable, cleaner sites etc. But, don't expect part of it will be an immidiate or ever acceptance of what you concider needed for civil living.
One thing that comes to mind is begging. On this board, posts about busking show that to some, this kind of entertainment is concidered begging by some. I have seen Pavee children in Ireland create a theater of begging with is absoultly the equal of the best busking. There was a wee girl in Limerick back in the seventies I saw, in a Galway shawl, with a German Shepard (Alsatian for Europeans) puppy wraped in her shawl and being fed with a baby bottle. She was crying unconsolably. Ten pound notes where fluttering into her box. Once she had too big a crowd, she would beam at them, as though in heaven, and the crowd would melt away and she'd start wailing again. To barrow the approach (not at all methodically with my appologies to you Ruth) of Dr. Ruth Andersen, in asking is this behavior paracitic or symbiotic, as she did with fortune telling in her doctoral thesis... in what way is this symbiotic. Well, on one level, anyone dropping a ten pound note - and these were not many tourests I should add, is feeling very good about himself, for "all he is doing for the 'problem' of Travellers in Limerick". Many are rewarding a great performance in the same way one feels good in appaulding at the opera. Much of the interaction between Travelling communities and settled communities is performance - these are folkloric communities which exist by providing small services which settled buiness would go broke providing, or providing theater of one kind or another.
So, finaly, I have to say, remember, those who are the most adaptable survive, so don't get put off by Travellers or others of the great "otherness". Roll up your sleaves and get into the life around you. One of these days your Travellers Yuk may become a Travellers, Yes!
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 10:44 AM

So how about switching to a different label TY, and one that wouldn't be more at home on a BNP website?

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 10:55 AM

McGrath, what is BNP?

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 11:07 AM

British Nationalist Party, modern Facists. CHeers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 01:38 PM

And for more details on the BNP, and thier sordid history "Click 'Ere"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 02:39 PM

Or the Bangladeshi Nationalist Party... not to much different, more empowered and more extreem. Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Peter Woodruff
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 05:38 PM

I have worked with many travelling archealogists who live in pits and visit home once in awhile.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 06:13 PM

Hi Peter... am I missing something? Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Poo Archeologists!!!!
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 06:16 AM

If you've ever had the misfortune to smell the armpits of a travelling archeologists you'd understand why they have to be nomads..

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: AggieD
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 07:33 AM

In my experience I have seen several sides of the travelling community.

When I was a child I remember we often had women who would knock on the door selling the usual pegs & 'lucky heather'. My mother would often buy the pegs or give a few pennies to them instead of buying the heather, although they would almost always insist that she take it,whether she wanted it or not. They did not want to be seen as beggars, but as genuine traders. We also had the occassional travelling man to whom my mother never refused a cup of tea & a sandwich, or maybe a few coppers. As I grew up I once asked one of the ladies why they always called at our door, when I noticed they often missed other houses in our street, & she told me that our house was 'marked', which frightened me, but she assured me that we were marked by kindness, & that travellers would always stop at our door, as they knew we weren't abusive to them. For the life of me I don't know how they knew, as I searched & searched, but could never find any sort of marking around our house. Presumably they were either the same family or group, & just remembered over the years that we were not abusive to them as our neighbours were. I also remember them telling me that they used to think that we were very unclean because we had our toilets inside our houses & washed our dirty plates etc. in the same places as our dirty clothes, something they would never think of doing.

Living in a small village, I have also had experince of the fact of a community setting up in a local lay-by for the summer & leaving the place full of human, animal & fly tipping waste, & the local council having to clean up after them. They were not moved on before they could clean up the place, but had been allowed to stay for the summer, as the place they were staying was completely unused & led only onto a small path that led to nowhere & was totally unused. The council spent weeks clearing the mess up & have now blocked off the area. Perhaps if the travellers had at least attempted to clean up before they left, they may have had a regular stopping place for summer, but now it is one more area they have lost.

While I personally appreciate that there is a vast cultural difference I am a great believer of when in Rome... If travellers of any sort, be they Roma or bus users or Brits going to foreign countries shouting at the locals 'Uno cup of tea grassee arse', then they are all just as crude as each other. Everyone should respect the laws & culture of the country they are in at that time & should do the best they can to minimise any offence. We in Britain & most western cultures do not normally defecate & leave our rubbish at the roadside, so surely the travellers are being rude to us by breaking one of our most basic codes of moral decency, just as if as a woman I walked into a Muslim temple in shorts? We should all learn about each others cultures & respect those of where we find ourselves living.

Blessings & Peace
Aggie

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 09:07 AM

From the one who asked the original question and has resisted an attempt to get the thread creep stopped, Aggie, I appreciate your answer. It is thoughtful, not vindictive, and addresses the problems associated with travellers/roma, in a way that I can't see how anyone could possibly disagree........allthough I feel quite sure someone will.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 06:36 PM

Well, jimmyt: The point where we seek agreement, as yet, is whose country is it. Romani people have been in England since the middle ages, and Irish Travellers have been in the Illes, well, since before Celtic culture drifted in...
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 06:51 PM

Romani, Romanian - different word, with a completely different origin, just happen to sound similar.

Romanians are citizens of Romania (so called because it was a Roman province, and held on to the language); and there is a large Romani (comes from an Indian word) minority there, who get treated pretty badly, and some of them have come over to England to get away from that. And true enough some of these have a style of begging that can annoy and worry people, but which isn't aggressive, in my experience,unlike some native begging techniques.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: AggieD
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 02:24 PM

I'm sorry InOBU, but although Romani people may have been living here since the Middle Ages, of which I am very well aware, we no longer, as I said before, defecate & throw our rubbish into the streets.

Anyone living within the boundaries of a society should do their utmost to conform to the norms of that society.

The native Brits at that time thought it ok to throw everything out into the street, but we have now moved on from that & so should anyone who is living in this country. If anyone wants to throw rubbish onto the street, then I suggest they find another country to live in, where it is considered the norm.

Aggie

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 02:33 PM

and from my travels, Aggie, those places are getting fewer and fewer

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 03:09 PM

The"native Brits" still seem to think its OK to drop rubbish all over the place. Just walk through pretty well any town centre and use your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Litter Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 04:34 PM

The native Brits pay handsomely through their taxes for their streets and cities to be cleaned. But I do agree litterbugs should be hung drawn and quatered and their heads should be placed on pikestaffs by the ticket booths at the Tower of London so that all who would dare drop a sweet wrapper would be fully informed of the fate awaiting them.

Now stringing up litter louts that could perhaps a less anti-social occupation for Irish travellers and Romanian gypos. Though knowing the Irish travellers they would be dumping skip loads of headless corpses along the Beckton bypsass before you could say "Traitors Gate" and the Romanians would be begging by the side of the road with skeletons under the arm to tug at the heart strings..

Yukky

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 04:45 PM

The real pain is the chewing gum. I'd favour a tax on the stuff specifically to pay for the equipment needed to peel it off the pavement.

Though spitting out chewing gum like that is a sign of a profligate and wasteful generation. We used to stick it in our pocket
when done, and liven it up with a Polo mint, when it was time to give it another chew.

"Does your chewing gum lose its flavour on the bedpost overnight..."

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Litter Yuk !!!!!!
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 04:49 PM

Yuk Mcgrath you certainly have some unsavoury habits.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Chewing gum yum !!!!!
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 04:59 PM

Actualy steady on Mcgrath you could be offending the sensibilties of the American nation by attacking chewing gum. To MR and Mrs America chewing gum and sticking it where they please is every bit as much a way of life as foisting a convoy of caravans on the poor ever suffering ordinary folks. Gum is yum its the American way of life and protected under the 5th ammendment so dont monkey with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 10:18 PM

Anyone living within the boundaries of a society should do their utmost to conform to the norms of that society.

Now stringing up litter louts that could perhaps a less anti-social occupation for Irish travellers and Romanian gypos

Statements by those who believe there is a problem in England with Travelling people. When I hear words like "gypo" I am tempted to allow words like savages to describe the culture of a people who has murdered Travelling people by terrible numbers in the past, and still in mobs kill Travelling people, kill beautiful young boys like Johnny Delaney while screaming gypo, in the self same way that those in white hoods sceam niger niger niger like out of control children while stringing up the Black men they so fear...


Aggie, there are many societies in a country. Taking the long view of your history, you will find the vestiges of Viking, Saxon, and neolithic peoples leaving a bit hear and there and keeping some of their culture intact. The homoginization of British society has not happened yet, and even with the import of millions of American baseball caps, it yet may not take place.

While you deficate on Romani and Travelling society and culture, some will respond by deficating in the margins of your community where the less and less common ground disapears under the weight of concrete and prejudice.

Just as the poor will always be with us, it is a sad fact that we must tollerate and love the bigot as well. I just wish for the joy you miss and horror you engender, you'd grow up a little.

ALl the best
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: AggieD
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 07:38 AM

InOBU how dare you say that I defecate on anyones culture & I am not the immature one here! You obviously are, like most people of cultures which want to go on their merry way ignoring the norms of the society where they have chosen to live & in many cases without paying a penny towards the normal everyday infrastructure, ie taxes. I am not saying that anyone has to live a certain way of life, what I am saying is that in this country, as in many others we do not believe in leaving our mess in the streets. For one thing we know that it is a health hazard, and if we all lived in a shit hole, our society would be even less civilised than it is today.

Don't get me confused with the bigots that are on this site. As a Jew who's maternal grandparents escaped from the pogroms of Poland, I would not disrespect the country I live in. While I am very aware that many of my fellow Jews think they have the right to kill & maim in the sorry belief that they are always right, along with the terrorists of Palestinians, Iraqis etc., I believe that there is good in lots of different cultures. But I still hold that if you live your life in a country you respect the way the majority live. So don't give me crap about Vikings & Saxons. However I would point out that all people on this earth come from a very small pool of human life, so don't go on about being neolithic either, as you tar yourself with the same brush.

While I'm more moderate than Yuk I have to agree that litter louts are disgusting & I hate what the 'refugees' whether they are Romanian or whatever, do with tiny children. Unfortunately there are insufficient resources to stop these people doing what they do, so just don't encourage them by giving them any money & they may get the message & stop it. If you see anyone mistreating a child, report it to the police & NSPCC, don't just sit back & expect it to go away, if you see something you don't like DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

End of rant, & by the way my husband thinks you are very brave people arguing with me, he wouldn't dare, as he knows I'm always right!!!!!

Go with respect,

Ag

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 08:28 AM

Aggie:
There is a bond that those who are not survivors of genoncide share, our ashes can not be separated on the fields around Auswitz Bergen Belsen. There is an understanding, which my Anglo Irish father could never emotionaly have, that mother's family and I share.
The evening of August 2-3, I know you will pause and think of that night which saw the murder of almost all the Roma in those places beyond the understanding of humanity.

Neolithic is not a pajoritive. The root of a number of British traditional societies is found in pre-iron age culture. DNA studies show that there are decendants of Cheddarman living where they have lived forever, and leaving traces of their ethics shrowded in local custom.

In the US, the fact that in recent times (and to a degree presently) we have been in the process of stealing land from one group of the many nations on this shore, has led our courts to struggle with a body of law to make it seem just and right. A Canadian political sientist, Russel Bear, if memory serves, once said the American Indian Law is not law, as law must apply the same concept of rights to all and be predictable. In this, he did not mean the same set of laws, but, if it is wrong for one to be concoured, it is wrong to concour another.

There were times when Jews in England were in a position very like the Romani folks are today. Being that the state religion was anti - Jewish in its myth, Jews were not able to live freely as Jews.

There was a viriety of ways that British Jewish people reacted to this persicution, not all of it examples of taking the high road.

Often, when you find conflict between the way two groups live, you find both sides at fault. If you can come to the conference, I'm sure you will hear example after example of needed utilities denied to nomadic and semi nomadic people in Britain. Of late, my area of expertise is semi nomadic people in the US, so I have heard many of these stories from England, but have not filed these stories away, as it has not been a needed part of my work here. In the US, Travellers have moved away from the "camp period" by adopting a culture where they move from RV camps - small villages of mobile homes, to motels, a very American phonominon, hotels in every community, very very affordable and designed to accomodate cars and trailers. The fact of motels has greatly affected Traveller culture here, where for a few dollars a night, one has indoor plumbing, heat and airconditioning. As a result of this hapenstance, among all the tention and myth surounding Travllers in the US, leaving a mess is not on the board. In fact, I have found the RV parks run by Travellers to be among the most well kept parks in the US. Among the stories I hear from England and Ireland, is land set aside for Travellers without water, or a case, if memory serves, in Ireland, where horse drawn Travellers had to camp on a concrete lot where the Guardai kept watch to see that their horses did not stray to grass nearby.
We bear the weight of our history in a way that some on this board might not. I hope you can take the a little time in December to come to Ireland and find the story's other side. Remember that the world looked the otherway, fifty years ago, and the results will be felt in our families forever. When remember, as Eli Weisel remind us, that those millions died one person at a time, the racist murder of Johnny Delaney, last June, may call us to find out why. I know it is not for leaving a mess, in spite of TY's call for lynching those who litter. It was because the blaim pattern in society always points down to those with the least ability to defend themselves.
So once again, do come to the conference, if you can. It is a better thing to meet and learn from each other, then to only share the soil of Poland's death camps.
All the best
Shalom, agus Slan, hai baxt.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 09:38 AM

By the way Aggie:
As far as never being wrong, it is not a matter of right or wrong. Obviously you are bothered by Travellers, the trick is what to do about it. There are two ways, generally of dealing with clashes of cultures. The nazis attempted to rid the world of those who offended them, British society has attempted to force complience with cultureal norms, both did not end the clash of cultures. In the US, an accident of rual development "cured" the clash of cultures on the issue of dumping. Other clashes still exist here, such as the unwarrented arrest of Romani people in the US on pretextual charges to racially profile the community...
As to not paying taxes or contributing, that is not always true, and contribution to society is not always messureable in the same way. Some of the ways Travellers have contributed to your society has been, just one example of many, the invention, very early on, of many of the methods of recycling, long before it was an issue for settled people, in fact precious metal reclemation for Romani people goes back centuries, basicly panning the waist from gold and silver smiths. Today, Roma in the US are responcible for much of the silver relcamation done to waist photo products. This silver, if not removed from photo fixer in shops all over the US would be poured into the ocean if not for the intervention of Romani people. Most of the pavers and painters I know, keep careful records and do pay taxes as well, by the way.
So, anyway, it is not about being right or wrong, it is about being open to learning. The fact that in earlier posts it is clear that you know something of Romani people and may even have read the Fonseca book, Bury Me Standing, is not a bad start. But, I would hope you don't pause on your travel to understanding.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 10:20 AM

Remember "Only little people pay taxes."

The people who really steal money from the community by avoiding paying taxes by shuffling the papers around are the rich.

And I don't know how it is in America, but here the people who bleat loudest about how casual workers get pout of taxes, are the very same people who, anytime they want a job done, such as a bit of paving or decorating, will insist on paying cash in hand, and on getting something knocked off the price for doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 11:45 AM

Exactly right, McGrath, same in the USA... they demand the reduction of price and often damn the fellow for doing it. Cheers Larry
PS Same when it comes to hireing the guest without papers, those who sometimes scream the loudest are the ones who have the underpaid gardiner, maid, nanny - paid little because they have no papers. Humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: AggieD
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:37 PM

InOBU, I agree that both our peoples will always carry the history of the Shoah (Holocaust), & that we also share that same history of persecution & being moved from place to place because we were different. I am still enraged by the sub-humans who still portray Jews as hooked-nosed money lenders, which of course Jews were forced into historically as the only trade that they were legally able to follow. Yes we have been forced out of England & other parts of Euprope, & persecuted there as well, there is absolutely no reason why as enlightened individuals we cannot, as you say try to educate others.

Unfortunately many of my fellow Jews do not see any tolerance in their hearts, & don't want to go above the eye for an eye situation, as don't many others, who we classify as terrorists. But I am a realist &, while I may be unpopular with my friends & relatives when I put my point of views about trying to talk to others, & they insist that the only way forward is more brutality on both sides, I still hope that one day someone somewhere will be able to encourage all of humanity to be tolerant to each other. But I think that place is called Utopia!

Yes McGrath I know lots of people like that, in fact one of my neighbours complained bitterly about 'assylum seekers & gypsys' laying his neighbours new drive. Originally he was going to report them to all & sundry & then had the cheek to get them to lay his drive, because they were so cheap.

I live to learn something new every day.

Aggie

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:57 PM

Well, being the product of an English and Irish Utopian faith (Quaker) I can say with certainty that progress is not a march towards perfection, but a march to new and more interesting problems! Do look up my song about Rachel Corrie on her memorial webpage. She was also a progressive Jewish young lady, who gave her life to attempt to bring justice to that sad struggle in Isreal and Palistine.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 04:13 PM

They are down on Dale Farm jimmyt, need to hurry up though, they will be getting a sharp shift shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 03:00 AM

You mean short shrift.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 03:12 AM

A weirdly selected ad appeared at the side of this thread.

UK Evictions
Squatter Traveller Gypsy Livestock Call For a Free No Obligation Quote
www.ukevictions.com


I'm not happy about that. I suppose it's the google ad process.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 03:25 AM

Probably Penny. While I might not like that particular ad, I suppose one could argue it is based on what the page itself displays.

I find Google's method of tracking what you have looked at on one site (eg. an item at Screwfix) and then finding that displayed as an ad on another site (eg. an ad at Mudcat) rather more concerning.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 04:01 AM

Guest Bluesman, I've never heard such predjudiced drivel in my life, you are not fit to be a Mudcat member and should be barred after spouting your racial predjudice on this forum where we embrace friendliness and tolerance to ALL.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 04:35 AM

Come on Dave, get real, and you a fellow ex squaddie.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 05:28 AM

Well Bluesman you have the advantage over me, what is your real name ?

Dave H [ my real name ]

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 05:47 AM

"though, they will be getting a sharp shift shortly. "
I fear you are right - unless the police are willing to accept the bribes they have habitually accepted in the past, to leave them where they are.
Another victory for you and your fellow fascists, it would appear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM

Police do take take bribes in the UK, this is not 1974 Soho Jim, please state your proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 09:41 AM

Never mind that, you state your real name.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 09:41 AM

Jon, someone told me how to switch that personal ad tracking off, and I have, but I can't remember how! It was on here, when I found myself haunted by a car buying company which knew my car details, and a DIY shop which knew I was interested in lampshades! It is scarey.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 11:47 AM

"Police do take take bribes in the UK, this is not 1974 Soho Jim, please state your proof."
I have been present on site when the police called "to see everything was all right".
The Traveller I was recording told us he had come to collect his 'bonus' for "keeping an eye on the site".
We recorded a number of Travellers who, independantly, told of the same thing happening to them.
On one site in S E London they refused to pay; we turned up one afternoon and assisted in helping to clear up the damage after a squad car had turned up with a couple of boys in blue who "searched" the site for stolen property - they found nothing.
On the same site, a fourteen year old Traveller lad was picked up by our 'guardians of the law' and told he fitted the description of somebody wanted (for an unspecified crime) in the north of England. He was driven to Bolton where he was released without charge - and without money - and left to make his way back to London.
The Travellers on the site decided to pay up in future.   
At one of The Singers Club venues, opposite a police accommodation hostel, the police would regularly come in just after closing time, clear the premises and then stay drinking there till the early hours of the morning.
I worked at electrical maintainence in London pubs for seven years and saw up close the corrupt behaviour of the police.
All this is, of course, anecdotal - they don't take out an ad in The Times (or in the case of the police, the late, but not lamented News of the World), but the behaviour of London police is quite well known to most people who care to take off their rose-tinted spectacles.
Perhaps you would like to provide a smidgeon of proof for some of the bigotted bile that you have been spouting here - or even tell us what actual experience of Travellers you base that bile on.
Jim Carroll
PS Speaking of The News of the World, I understand that there are several more of our good old English bobbies being considered for prosecution for taking bribes in the phone-hacking scandal - an over-active imagination on somebody's part, no doubt!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 12:56 PM

Oh right Jim, the Pikey's told you the police demand backhanders, I rest my case. Jim, if you told be it was daylight, I would look out the window to check.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: ollaimh
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:31 PM

right fookin on obu!!!

these self righteous bigotted anglos. american and british, who ran and are running some of the most violent empires in world history , spreading murder from kenya to iraq and from acadie to ireland have absolutely no right to judge their victums, but they do. why? because if you didn't slander the victums of empire you might actually have the face the fact that american and british imperialist wars have killed tortured and ethnically cleansed people in every corner of the globe.

i've met travellers who left garbage behind. but thats a pitance to the military capitalist society that has created so much garbage and pollution we may not be able to sustain life on earth in a few decades. all for consumer goods that do little or nothing to actually improve your life. travellers don't consume the whole planet , they have tiny needs compared to the mainstream and leave a tiny enviornmental foot print.

when i travelled, i spent years using no electriciity(at least directly),buying almost no consumer goods and creating no garbage but food left overs and taking a dump --which every oine has to do.

but you bigots, try not to take your dumps with your mouths!

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: ollaimh
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:51 PM

and to those who can't imagine police taking bribes. well what palnet have you been living on?

when i busked my way around europe, the british police were the most agressive towards busking in western europe , untill you slipped them a ten pounds.

just because the nice middle class don't every see the but of a gun or the threat of arrest unless they are paid off doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

of course these are the same people who beleve their soldiers never murder or torture. despite the events in the fifties in kenya or the deaths on bloody sunday(take either one) and thousands of other examples. or the hodding(the origional waterboarding) and isolation torture of political prisoners in ireland.

if it doesn't happen to you then it doesn't happen i guess

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:58 PM

So we have to accept your bilious racist bigotry about travellers which isn't even graced by a claim of personal experience - you have made no case to rest - just bilious bigotry.
I've given the facts and our part in them - - you will believe and reject whatever suits you small-mindedness
What planet do you occupy pal - the News of the World bribery didn't happen, the police lying, then having to admit they lied about the shooting in Tottenham that sparked off the riots - come on, you really do want it both ways!!!!
A few incidents I have witnessed first hand, or close enough to know them to be true.
A few times over the last few years I have gone into town for a pint only to find every pub closed.
It is the practice of the police here that if Travellers are in the area they go round instructing the publicans that they are to to lock their front doors and only admit people they know in. They are informed that if they serve any Travellers and their assistance is required they will not respond to calls.

A couple of years ago there was a row in our market Town, Ennis, between two groups of teenagers, one lot town lads, the others Travellers; little more than name calling across the street.
One of the town lads went home, obtained a knife and stabbed a Traveller to death. On being caught his response was "He was only a knacker (Traveller equivilant of nigger)".
Strangely, he was only charged with and is now serving time for manslaughter - probably because he was a policeman's son.

Just previouly to this, a farmer came home to find two Travellers in his yard. At no time did the Travellers attempt to threaten the farmer; they attempted to walk away.
He went into the house, brought out a gun and shot one of the men, wounding him badly. While he was lying on the ground the farmer took a hefty stick and beat him with it. He then went back into the house re-loaded his gun and andministered the coup-de grace, killing him.
None of these facts were denied by the farmer, who fully expected to be jailed for the murder - he was acquitted.

A few winters ago a Traveller family here were left homeless by a caravan fire (this time accidental, though there hae been numerous arson attacks on Travellers). The father, who had Chrone's Disease and a school aged daughter were both burned, though not seriously.
The local council decided to home the family in an empty house just outside town.
Despite a protest by the local bishop of Kilaloe, a group of townspeople (bigots like yourself) mounted a day-long picket outside the house chanting the wonderfully thought out "Resident in, Travellers out" - the police did nothing, despie the fact that the incident made the radio news and the local paper.
The family, being used to such bigotry, took little notice until one day, when she was coming out of a shop with three of her children, the mother was stopped by a local man and told "If you hang around here much longer you'll be needing the assistance of the fire department again".
For the safety of the childers the family borrowed a holiday caravan and moved out to a car-park down by one of the local beaches, where they set up temporary camp with makeshift tents to accoommodate the overspill - the youngest child celebrated her first birthday and Christmas there.

Unlike your unsubstantiated accusations all these incidents are all a matter of record.
I don't suppose any of this bothers you one way or the other - you and your friends don't seem the type to care too much about other people, but before you pour out your unsubstantiated filth about what Travellers are and do - try and give some thought to what effect your bigotry has on others, men, women, children, young and old.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 09:38 PM

Jim, You are pissing into the wind trying to make sense to Bluesman. He presses buttons--musically and on threads. Don't waste your breath, or bandwidth, your choice. Arguing with a bigot about prejudice is like discussing ham with a pig. He'll be interested, but he won't think it has anything to do with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 03:29 AM

999
Thanks for that - People like Bluesman, Twisted Willie and others who aim their vitriol at whole communities, cultures and races, irrespective of gender or age, are happy to see families dispossesed and living in 3rd world conditions and who rejoice in the idea that children will die prematurely, are sociopaths who, as you say, really aren't worth bothering too much about.
Most turdus humanus such as those on display here, usually have neither the courage nor the committment to raise their bums from in front of their computer screens to actually do anything about their bigotry; rather, they expect society to do it for them.
Their sole contribution to subjects like these is to act as examples of how low humanity can sink if we stop thinking and feeling.
My points were for general consumption; I'm just happy to have the opportunity to make them.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:48 AM

On another thread Bluesman appears to have claimed to be Perry Foster, blues player from Stourbridge. Does anyone know Perry Foster and would they like to check?

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:53 AM

Richard, pleae re read my post, "You will find me here" and to think you were once a Sebastian of law.

Richard, go to the link, yes you will find me there as I said. Many here know me, clearly you don't.

I do not answer to anyone but myself my good friend.
Have a great day.

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 04:55 AM

What is that supposed to mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Where do Travellers Live?
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 05:19 AM

Yes.