BS: 4 X 4's

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:49 PM

This is connected to the hypocrisy thread because when we had a public meeting about banning smoking in the Pubs because it was damaging to the other people...al the fervent anti smokers came in 4X4s. Now don't that beat all. We are awash in hypocrites ..ain't we?

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Amos
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:53 PM

We all have blindness in degrees and on different subjects. Yowling about hypocrisy may be satisfying, but it doesn't address the facts or raise the awareness of those whose blind-spots are being discussed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 01:14 PM

I am not yowling Amos, nor am I satisfied. I am merely suggesting that awareness that one is a problem only starts when we stop pointing fingers at others and deal with our own vices, It is this step that many drivers of polluting vehicles fail to grasp. It is not enough to be against the failing of others, you also have to be against your own.
   In fact, I am not sure I understand your point, really. Are we to attack only other peoples faults then ? That is what happens now and it does not help and it is hypocritical..that is all I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 01:54 PM

Amos, I don't think you are always mean spirited but I gotta disagree about the most dangerous vehicle. For 2003, I pick the Iraqi T72, its especially dangerous for the driver. Or Maybe Air Force One?

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 02:06 PM

Don't all internal combustion engines pollute the air?

What I think is so amusing in all of this anti-SUV stuff, is that I have yet to hear anyone come out against 18-wheelers. If you think SUVs are dangerous on the highway.... well, I suppose you've never sat in traffic for hours because two 18-wheelers collided. I suppose you've never lost a friend because he drove his VW bug UNDER one of those things.

And as far as gas guzzling is concerned, where is the outcry against the large luxury sedans with V-8 engines? Buses? Vans? Hmm? Private jets?

I drive a Jeep Cherokee - the one they don't make anymore. It goes off-road, it hauls firewood (because I have a woodstove instead of gas or electric heat), and it holds two large dogs and camping gear. And one time, we had to sleep in it when our tent flooded on an outing. The only time it has ever been in an accident was when someone in a small car HIT ME in a parking lot. The dent is still there.

Do some people get large vehicles for status? Of course they do. I think it's a little silly. But please don't lump all of us in there together.

Instead of telling people what they can & can't drive, how about we put pressure on the manufacturers to make better engines?

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 02:29 PM

Well put Kim C.    I drive a Nissan Xterra. I have two kids and my wife and I need the space for long trips. We don't care, nor can we afford to fly on vacations.   The Xterra has been wonderful.

I keep the car tuned and maintained. I am getting about 18 to 20 miles per gallon, not great but then again not that bad. I see dozens of old cars that are obviously burning oil and I'm sure doing worse things to the environment than my 4x2. (not a 4x4).

I properly recycle my oil, avoid air conditioning unless it is absolutely brutal, wash the car by hand (and only when it really, really needs it, and I avoid unnecessary "joy" rides.

Do I need such a big car? In the long run I am sure we could all get by with only bicycles. However, I do feel much safer in this vehicle. If you spend time driving the NJ Turnpike, I am sure you've noticed the tractor trailers that zip by. I do feel much safer in the Xterra than I did in our old Tercel.

Did I buy it for status? Hardly. I would not call an SUV or truck "sexy" or a status symbol. It is practical for my lifestyle, and I'm not ashamed to admit it - it is the most comfortable ride I've ever owned.   I would not buy a Hummer, nor would I buy a larger or more expensive SUV. The size fits my needs.   

There are a lot of cliches in this world, and many of them are being made at SUV owners. It is just another form of bigotry. Believe it or not, I DO, understand the problems and I am not trying to play spin doctor or justify my actions. I do think that there are ways to improve our quality of life, and I would make a strong case that the diesel burners are among the vehicles that need reformed.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,Red Eye
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 02:51 PM

All the 4 X 4's that I ever see are sparkingly clean and look like they have never been off road. Also if I suggested to the driver that they try it they would think I was crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Midchuck
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 02:53 PM

The 4-wheel drive isn't the issue. Kris and I have a nice matched pair of Subaru Legacy wagons at the moment. We liked hers so well that we got another one for me so she'd get to drive hers.

The issue is whether you have a larger, heavier and less economical car than you really need, for the sake, either of the sheer status, or for the "safety" - meaning, in the real world, "Everybody can damn well get out of my way because they know if I hit them, they'll die and I won't!" (Yes, Ron, I know that's not what you meant - at least at the ego level. But what about the Id...?)

Good point about the 18-wheelers. Especially since professional truck drivers stopped being the most competent and most polite drivers on the road, and started being the least. But what choice do we have? We have to have our Stuff, and we chose to let the railroad system go to hell, and I'm sure the environmentalists won't let us fix it now.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 03:11 PM

Leave my ID alone Peter!!

If I ever get in an accident, I hope that there are no deaths at all.   Your statement "everybody can damn well get out of my way" describes a type of driver who would be a problem in any car they drive.   I don't drive fast - you've probably passed my Xterra if you ever been on the road with me.   

I had to do a lot of thinking before I purchased the Xterra. I found it to be the most economical vehicle that I could purchase that meets my needs.

I have an issue with claustrophobia and head room. I cannot drive a car where my head is touching the ceiling. I tried a Subaru and felt very uncomfortable. Most cars would not fit my family needs.   Will I be doing off-road driving? Not for sport.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 03:17 PM

My 4x4 pickup sure is nice to drive here in Alaska in the winter. I don't care how much it costs to run, I know it is dependable in all weather and is much safer for my family on icy roads. It passes the emissions control inspections every year and gets 20+ mpg. If it ain't PC, tough tiddlywinks. I'm still going to drive it.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Phot
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 04:19 PM

As my Land Rover is off the road with some body work repairs at the moment, I have to use my moterbike to get to and from work over the winter, "so what", you may say, just bear this in mind.
Its a seventy mile round trip frim Honiton,where I live to Yeovilton where I work, and the weather is starting to get bad, with rain in the day and frost and ice at night, which makes things a bit tricky at six in the morning, with 150 Bhp going through a contact patch the size of a two pound coin!
Add to this equasion, salt (supposed to stop the roads freezing) which draws the moisture even more, spilt Diesel fuel from trucks with overfull tanks, mud and manure from farmyards and fields, rubber from the prolnged dry spell, and loose chippings from road "repairs".
You might start to see why I drive a Land Rover in The counties of Devon and Somerset!

Wassail

Chris....(Not looking foward to going to work for the next Few months!!)

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 12:57 AM

I drive a station wagon. It holds a lot, and car thieves don't like them. The same can not be said for S.U.V.s

This song goes to Get Along Home Cindy Cindy.

My neighbor bought a suvey. It gave me quite a shock
'cause when he tried to park the thing, it took up half the block.

Chorus: Gas it up suvey suvey, gas it up suvey suvey.
Gas it up suvey suvey, and then you have to pay.

And when he drives his suvey, you'd best leave it alone.
He passes on the right hand side, while talking on the phone.

Chorus.

The suvey hit a Geo. It did it once before.
The suvey has a scratch on it, the Geo is no more

Chorus.

The suvey hit a hairpin curve, rolled on it's back and died.
The insurance wouldn't pay up, 'cause they called it suveycide.

If your audience isn't throwing things at you, sing the chorus again.
PLEASE! feel free to sing this song, just don't tell people you wrote it. I loathe sport utility vehicles.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 08:05 AM

a landrover in Devon...Bingo. What would you drive in Manitoba...a tank ?

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 09:07 AM

Lady Jean - if an SUV destroys just one Geo, then the world is just a little better place to live.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 09:09 AM

One more item - the "myth" about SUV's taking up so much space - most are actually take less length than a station wagon. I've never found a parking space (marked) that I couldn't fit into with plenty of room for my neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 09:33 AM

Face the facts, Ron. You can't win.

People who drive little compact cars are sneering at you for a wasteful, arrogant exploiter of the environment and wanton destroyer of our natural resources.

Meanwhile, people in Suburbans and Expeditions and Navigators and Grand Cherokees are sneering at you for a hippy wimp.

Heh, heh...

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,Red Eye
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 09:35 AM

Went to B & Q for some paint earlier today. Went to park between two 4 X 4's. If I had been a couple of inches in width I possibly could have got out of my dor.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 09:54 AM

Okay Red Eye, you parked between two CARS that did not park properly. The same scenario could have happened with VW bugs!

Midchuck, I'm not trying to win! People who form opinions just to follow a party line are of no concern to me. I reviewed the options and made my decision. My Xterra and the way I drive it is not destroying the enviroment any more than a beat up old Geo that is burning oil.   I don't need a BMW or a Hummer to impress anyone. I don't buy a car to impress environmentalists or status seeking Yuppies.

Life is not black and white.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 10:27 AM

it's a shame you don't wish to impress those who are concerned for the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Amos
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 10:31 AM

Oh, Ron, why must you be soooooo RAtional???? ***bg*** When something such as a category of car or a race of people or a kind of candy bar gets elected as the Devil Iconic, there's no arguing. The discussion about the merits of the icon never address all the emotion attached to the devil part. Cf "No Irish Need Apply".

You can bash any machine design on the basis of its individual wastefulness or inefficiency but deciding that anything in the SUV category is categorically bad is just dumb.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 11:02 AM

Guest (if that is your real name!), none of us need to impress anyone. Our actions and the face we see in the mirror is the only thing that counts.   Blindly following a party line, be it the conservatives or the left, without thinking is just dumb. Question authority. Don't believe every press release you read. The media is biased on both sides. Everyone has to do their own research and gain experience on their own.

Well put Amos. There are 4x4's that are inefficent. I'm not saying that my Xterra is "good" for the environment, but there are steps people can take to minimize the impact. Change your oil regularly, get a tuneup, check the gas you put in the car, don't run unnecessary trips - and don't buy a car just for status.   Also, people who run cars into the ground that fail to pass emissions tests are doing much more harm.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Amos
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 11:11 AM

Guest:

The desire to impress is no part of an intention to communicate; it is the proivince of the unmoored soul and the insecure heart. As is the frequent, cheap and easy resort to sarcasm. Like this... :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 11:21 AM

Ron, my point was that life is not black and white! And that you can't keep everyone happy no matter what you drive.

Oh, well, maybe we should abandon the use of irony on this list as a precursor to abandoning all humor whatsoever. Perhaps the enraged audiences (see that thread) have moved into Mudcat.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Amos
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 11:45 AM

Ach. Midchuck, the first rule of a good sense of humor is 'never give up'!!! 'S what I was taught anyway!

A

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 11:49 AM

Midchuck, I did understand your point when I responded.   I'm sorry if you interpreted my comments as "enraged", it was far from that. I was adding to your comments, not disagreeing with them.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 12:05 PM

Ron-

Have you read Bradsher's High and Mighty... and what do you think of the points he raises?

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 12:51 PM

Peter, you're kidding about environmentalists not wanting trains improved, right? Trains would be a much better arrangement for the moving of stuff than trucks, and a lot of people know it. But the subsidy for trains falls so far behind the subsidy for trucking (because what else do you call the billions poured into road building and maintenance than a subsidy?) that they can't compete well today.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 01:00 PM

I'm still waiting for the Anti 18-Wheeler People to show up.

Anyhow.... I was lamenting the fact the other day, that cars cannot be like shoes; namely, that you can't have one for every circumstance. In a perfect world, I would have a smaller vehicle - like a Kia Sportage, a PT Cruiser, or even a Mini Cooper - for driving around town every day, and then I'd have the Jeep for camping, firewood, moving furniture, taking the dogs to the vet, etc. But vehicles are not affordable enough for most of us to have more than one, so we have to choose the One that will serve the most purposes in the most situations we find ourselves in.

If it were up to me, I'd go back to horse & buggy. Then I could have several buggies for different purposes.

It isn't MY fault that the vehicle I drive uses gasoline. Like I said before, if we're serious, let's put the pressure on the people who BUILD these things, to come up with some viable alternatives.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 01:06 PM

Government policy is a balancing act between different groups with different goals. Environmentalists want as few cars and trucks as possible, and unions want as many as possible. Labor union members drive trucks, build cars, build roads and form the most influential voting block in the country. Government policy does reflect the will of the voters more than the will of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 02:15 PM

Greg,

I admit I have not read the book, but I have heard him interviewed and I do think he raises some important points. Like I said, I do not think that all SUV's are safe.   Most of what I've read and heard from Bradsher has centered on Ford and the Explorer and Expedition.   When it became evident that my family needed a larger vehicle, I explored a number of options and did research on the safety of the Xterra. While the Xterra did not rate as high as I would have liked in rollovers, it did rate higher than most other SUV's. The Xterra also rated high in front and side crash tests, and the bumper is not as high as on most other SUV's. The gas guzzling station wagons that are made today are not much better than SUV's, AND they actually are longer than a SUV and take up more space to park.

Bradsher also makes a strong point that many drivers are not trained to handle these cars. A very important point.   I like to think that I am a safe driver and I took the time to learn about handling and how to avoid rollovers. I do not drink and drive, I do not drive recklessly, and I do not speed. Obviously you cannot anticipate every circumstance.   Any time you get behind the wheel of a vehicle you are taking a great responsiblity - for your own life and that of everyone on the road. We make choices to live our lives and do what we can to help others and our environment.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: saulgoldie
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 03:28 PM

The US has on thousand times the population it had when the outsiders came when the natural balance was fairly neutral. Those 1,000X citizens have resource appetites of thousands of times the original inhabitants.

The natural balance is so horribly out of balance it can likely not be restored short of major adjustments in consumption habits. Whatever we drive, we are going to have to drastically alter our notion of how much mileage is acceptable if the planet is going to survive. We have already done immeasurable irreparable harm. All we can do now is to limit our future harm.

SUVs do more harm than "normal" cars, but *all* cars represent a huge consumption of resources, vaster than our predecessors and more than the Earth can handle. Rationalize it however you want to. That will not alter this reality.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 03:46 PM

With all due respect, the American Indian population in the lower 48 states was no less than 2.5 million people when Europeans landed. Indian activists will claim as much as 30 million. The lowest estimate of the current US population is 284 million people, that being 50 states and two protected territories. 1000X increase would be 2.5-30 Billion people, using the American definition of a billion.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 09:55 AM

"http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031105-012221-3640r.htm">GM Plans SUV Hybrids

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 09:57 AM

Lemme try again:

GM Plans SUV Hybrids

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 01:20 PM

pdq, it isn't "Indian activists" alone who claim the higher Indian population pre-Columbus. It's folks who study the spread of disease from early coastal contact, anthropologists, statisticians doing the math, etc.--some of these are Indians, a lot of them aren't.

My pickup truck was very handy yesterday morning when the freeway was at a standstill due to two lanes closed ahead. I have a favorite informal "Texas offramp" (tire ruts through the grass) that took me over to the frontage road and out of the congestion. I've noticed that cars are less likely to take those exits than trucks--probably for good reason. But it is a nice option (as long as there isn't a cop around writing tickets!)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 01:56 PM

There is a small rental house down the street from mine and the residents drive a Hummer. They must be spending nearly the same amount on their car payment as they do in rent. What's the sense of that ?

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 01:01 PM

They probably spend MORE on their Humvee--those things are horribly expensive. I've been seeing more of them around here lately. I can't imagine spending that much on a vehicle anyway, but if I were in such a position, it would go to something like a beemer or a jag. I linked to a page on which the vehicle in question is (gulp!) $40,000 off MSRP*!!

SRS

*Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Amos
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 01:43 PM

Yeah, but ...they ford 20 inches of water, man!! Ya gotta love that, right? That's like, important, ya know??


A

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 04:36 PM

When I had my Altima a few years ago I once turned a corner and realized I had driven into a flood zone. It was raining heavily and the sewers were unable to handle the water. You could not tell that you were entering a "puddle" because the rain was coming down so hard it that everything looked like blacktop and the police had not arrived yet to block off the street from unsuspecting motorists like myself. The car actually floated a few feet, stalled out, and luckily ended up with all 4 tires still on the road. I had to get out, with water rushing in the door, and with the help of some people in a nearby house, pushed the car to somewhat drier land. After about 15 minutes I was able to start the car, but it would probably have been better if I let it be.   The engine was damaged and it cost me quite a bit to repair it.    This incident was another factor. Not that I intend to ford rivers, but I do like the comfort of knowing I am a bit higher up.   20 inches does seem a bit extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,Red Eye
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 04:17 PM

What does SUV stand for??

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 04:24 PM

Sports Utility Vehicle, Redeye....

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 06:09 PM

Open Mike, Nov. 3, 12:36: "In my fore-runner I used to drive an Exploder" I can understand why you carry three bags of fire gear.

Forgive me, open mike- I like juxtaposition:)

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 09:41 PM

Actually, I think that is what some people were calling them for a while. It had to do with some other problem than the tires.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 10:10 PM

I have to say that I have moments when I believe that the Toyota 4Runner SRS is perhaps the most beautiful poem ever written by automotive engineers.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Ed.
Date: 23 May 04 - 01:16 PM

Ken Livingstone has been having his say, on these vehicles, today:

"When you see someone trying to manoeuvre it round the school gates, you have to think, you are a complete idiot"

Have to agree with him on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: Phot
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:44 AM

Just a quick thought as you mentioned Ken Livingstone Ed. The London congestion charge is there to encourage motorists to use public transport, and therefore reduce pollution. So whats this got to do with a thread on 4X4's? My Land Rover 110 V8 has 12 seats, and is classified as a minibus under the rules of the congestion charge, and therefore, Exempt from the charge!! And before Ken starts to cast aspertions on my ability to drive large veichles, I hold a class 1 PSV (Bus and Coach) licence with double decker rating.

Wassail!!

Chris

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:58 AM

Ooooooooo he has a big 4X4, that explains the small penis.

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:05 AM

Amos' comment of 8 Nov reminded me of ..........

On a cycle the frame is gone. You're completely in contact with it all. You're in the scene, not just watching it anymore, and the sense of presence is overwhelming. That concrete whizzing by five inches below your foot is the real thing, the same stuff you walk on, it's right there, so blurred you can't focus on it, yet you can put your foot down and touch it anytime, and the whole thing, the whole experience, is never removed from immediate consciousness.

I have seen these marshes a thousand times, yet each time they're new. It's wrong to call them benign. You could just as well call them cruel and senseless, they are all of those things, but the reality of them overwhelms halfway conceptions. There! A huge flock of red-winged blackbirds ascends from nests in the cattails, startled by our sound.

Unless you're fond of hollering you don't make great conversations on a running cycle. Instead you spend your time being aware of things and meditating on them. On sights and sounds, on the mood of the weather and things remembered, on the machine and the countryside you're in, thinking about things at great leisure and length without being hurried and without feeling you're losing time.

The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower. To think otherwise is to demean the Buddha...which is to demean oneself.

We're out of the marshes now, but the air is still so humid you can look straight up directly at the yellow circle of the sun as if there were smoke or smog in the sky. But we're in the green countryside now. The farmhouses are clean and white and fresh. And there's no smoke or smog.On this trip I think we should notice it, explore it a little, to see if in that strange separation of what man is from what man does we may have some clues as to what the hell has gone wrong in this twentieth century. I don't want to hurry it. That itself is a poisonous twentieth-century attitude. When you want to hurry something, that means you no longer care about it and want to get on to other things.(from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance)


freda

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: el ted
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:31 AM

99

Subject: RE: BS: 4 X 4's
From: el ted
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:32 AM

post no 100. I thank you, my work here is done.