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BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Peace Date: 05 Nov 03 - 09:13 PM Has any party in the USA ever run with universal health coverage as part of its platform? And, you're right, petr, it's expensive and, unfortunately, not funded as well as it should be in Canada. But, as you say, at least it's there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: GUEST,petr Date: 05 Nov 03 - 09:08 PM although the canadian system is woefully underfunded-- and if you compare the average working persons coverage the US system actually fares better (in cbc study last year) on the other hand the US system leaves a big chunk of the population without any coverage. (having said that Id still take the Canuck system) I dont even think it is a question of - we have to tax you more because I dont think people would mind, sure Id pay more for better health care - but Id rather less to go military programs or tax cuts for the rich . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Peace Date: 05 Nov 03 - 08:51 PM Graham, What you say is too true. But, Canada has a universal medicare plan. We are a democracy, also. Therefore, it can be done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: GUEST,Grab Date: 05 Nov 03 - 07:58 PM Hey, last time I looked, the US was a democracy. If 43 million people are incapable of exercising their right to vote, god help us all. At roughly 1 million per state, that'd be a decisive chunk of votes. Trouble is, healthcare does cost money. Most national health services are stretched, and even then they're good-sized money pits. If Joe Politician goes to the polls and says "I'm going to add 10% on your income tax", that's going to make him popular, right? :-/ Especially if he says "it's a liberal socialist policy designed to help the poor", which it is. I don't blame the healthcare providers or insurance people, any more than I'd blame McDonalds for not giving you free food if you're broke. The problem is a population with an "I'm alright Jack" attitude who won't pay higher taxes for better services, which leads to politicians who won't propose this because it's a vote-loser. I don't think it's a problem at the top, it's a grass-roots problem feeding all the way through. How many of your friends (particularly your Republican friends) would say "yes, tax me some more"? Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 05 Nov 03 - 07:49 PM Try not to dwell on the semantics, McG. Humpty Dumpty had the right idea: "When I use a word it means exactly what I intend it to mean. Neither more nor less." (Or words to that effect....) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Nov 03 - 05:17 PM I get a sense that Fionn was intending to make some point. But I'm buggered if I know what it was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: GUEST,petr. Date: 05 Nov 03 - 05:07 PM & tobacco related diseases kill 500,000 Americans a year. & |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 05 Nov 03 - 04:26 PM McGrath, Shakespeare wrote "The morn, in russet mantle clad, walks over the dew of yon high eastern hill." Housman wrote: "The tent of night in tatters/Straws the sky-pavilioned land." Just the first two that came to mind. I await your disertation. But I doubt if it will come close to something Orwell wrote: "The art of writing lies largely in the perversion of words..." Gareth, it might be your idea of a solution to go round bombing terrorists, but I doubt if it's Larry's. Foulestroupe may not have noticed, but I suspect he cares more for human life than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Irish sergeant Date: 05 Nov 03 - 03:17 PM It isn't terrorism but it is damed well corporate greed adn until we figure out how to elect good people into office instead of the greedy thieving (Explicative Deleted) that seem to be the ones who always get elected it will not change. ard mhacha; Unfortunately, the con men are the ones I'm talking about in the above paragraph. Not all of us Yankees want to "nail Lifts on to the natives feet" to paraphrase comedian George Carlin. Some of us actually do realize we need to set our own house in order before we tell others how to act. Kindest regards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Terror in the USA" - 18,000 die each year From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Nov 03 - 06:43 PM Perhaps the headline I put on this post says the same true thing more precisely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: GUEST Date: 03 Nov 03 - 06:38 PM Strength in numbers ... and the almighty dollar speaks. I wonder what the health care industry would do if everyone cancelled or refused insurance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Peace Date: 03 Nov 03 - 01:00 AM I'm blessed to live in a country that has socialized medicine, where for approximately $1000/year/family, one is covered for almost all medical care. (This excludes elective surgery.) It is do-able if the will is there. And for those who cannot afford the $1000/year, the treatment is still available. Would that people all over the world had that. However, it isn't terrorism, it's corporate greed. There is a NWO on the way, and I don't think we're gonna like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: katlaughing Date: 02 Nov 03 - 10:35 PM Thanks, Jim, sorry for the misunderstanding. I make the distinction, though, that personally the costs can be much different depending on how we maintain our health. The healthier we are, for the longest we are able, the less out of pocket costs. Barry, I think you put your finger on it..."crimes against humanity"...I agree, wholeheartedly, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Jim Dixon Date: 02 Nov 03 - 08:01 PM Kat: No, you misunderstand me. I think it's a fine idea to take care of yourself. I was trying to get at the question of what is the aggregate cost to society of health care? My point is, the aggregate cost will be about the same, in the long run, regardless of whether you opt out of health insurance, regardless of whether you shut down Macdonalds, regardless of whether you practice preventive medicine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Amos Date: 02 Nov 03 - 02:12 PM If you're American, you've probably got a DVD player and a Nintendo and a personal computer, but you haven't got a decent health care system or a government that really gives a damn about ordinary people's health and welfare, despite what they may say at election time. LH: I do not have a Nintendo and wouldn't want one if it were given to me. I do have a small TV and since Christmas last, a DVD player. But I also have a decent health system because I work for a company that knows it can't attract intelligent people to work for it without one. Everyone who works there, and all their families, are covered according to elective choices each employee makes. As for the government you describe, oi, are you on the money! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Bobert Date: 02 Nov 03 - 01:50 PM Anger, yes.... Hate, no, because it is debilitating. Look what it did to the folks who spent so much of their *life* consumed with hatred. We all know these folks. Their is no joy in their lives. No peace. Just turmoil and demons. That's what hate did to them... Compare that with the looks on the faces of the millions of folks who have marched together against Bush's repressive and down right evil policies. These folks are full of life. The demonstrations that I've been part of are as much protest as they are celebration... This is an important difference that divides the two sides... And fir the life of me I can't figure out how a true Christain can wallow in hatred... It is not why we were created and it is not what Jesus taught... (Oh yeah, Bobert, then why do them folks call themselves "God fearing"?) I rest my case. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: kendall Date: 02 Nov 03 - 09:03 AM In the not so distant past, the Eskimos were a nomadic people. They had to keep moving or starve. When one got too old to keep up, they were left to die by freezing or as a snack for a wandering polar bear. On the plains of Africa, they were left for the lions. When a lion is too old or injured to hunt, she is cared for by the others. How far above all this are we? Billions for war, not one cent for affordable health care. All you conservatives out there, tell me why I should be proud to be an America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: InOBU Date: 02 Nov 03 - 08:08 AM whoops, not I a young fellow, that whoud read, when a young fellow... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: InOBU Date: 02 Nov 03 - 08:07 AM Susan askes where is the peace the love and the light. I agree, where is the peace in a nation which canabalizes the working class so a few can live on the plush, where is the love in a hospital which the bottom line is more important than the cure and children are refused life saving treatments as insurence companies make the decision what is experimental and what is the only cure, where is the light in a nation which keeps its people in the dark, lieing about why a war is fought at the cost of hundreds of billions of dollars while we cannot afford to provide for our elderly in need, that generation that stood against facisim is now being let die in need by a generation which gives heroic names to every act of aggression we committ in other lands. ... I don't know. Where is my peace love and light? It is in being a responcible citizen and calling murder murder. I a young fellow who went to a substandard school tries to mug someone with a knife, that is easy to see. When a guy who went to NYU bissiness school denies the bone marrow transplant to a child, that is called doing buisness. It is not. it is murder. (Re the PM - I must have misunderstood your question, as a few others did, and my appologies! ) Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Nov 03 - 07:45 AM Don't you go believe a single word they say When they tell you that it always has to be this way, No, don't you go believe a single word they say, For it never used to be this way And it was never meant to be this way And it never needs to be this way. That's from a song I wrote a few years ago, back in England's Thatchist times. And it was true. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: DIRTY BLVD (Lou Reed) From: Metchosin Date: 02 Nov 03 - 03:02 AM And because I'm in a particularly dark mood this evening too..... From Lou Reed's Album - New York (1989) DIRTY BLVD Pedro lives out of the Wilshire hotel He looks out a window without glass The walls are made of cardboard, newspapers on his feet His father beats him 'cause he's too tired to beg He's got 9 brothers and sisters They're brought up on their knees It's hard to run when a coat hanger beats you on the thighs Pedro dreams of being older and killing the old man But that's a slim chance he's going to the boulevard He's going to end up, on the dirty boulevard He's going out, to the dirty boulevard He's going down, to the dirty boulevard This room cost 2,000 dollars a month You can believe it, man, it's true Somewhere a landlord's laughing till he wets his pants No one dreams of being a doctor or a lawyer or anything They dream of dealing on the dirty boulevard Give me your hungry, your tired your poor I'll piss on 'em That's what the statue of bigotry says Your poor huddled masses, let's club 'em to death And get it over with and just dump 'em on the boulevard Get to end up, on the dirty boulevard Going out, to the dirty boulevard He's going down, on the dirty boulevard Going out Outside it's a bright night There's an opera at Lincoln center Movie stars arrive by limousine The klieg lights shoot up over the skyline of Manhattan But the lights are out on the mean streets A small kid stands by the Lincoln tunnel He's selling plastic roses for a buck The traffic's backed up to 39th street The tv whores are calling the cops out for a suck And back at the Wilshire, Pedro sits there dreaming He's found a book on magic in a garbage can He looks at the pictures and stares at the cracked ceiling "at the count of 3," he says, "I hope I can disappear" And fly, fly away, from this dirty boulevard I want to fly, from dirty boulevard I want to fly, from dirty boulevard I want to fly-fly-fly-fly, from dirty boulevard I want to fly away I want to fly Fly, fly away I want to fly Fly-fly away (fly a-) Fly-fly-fly (-way, ooohhh...) Fly-fly away (I want to fly-fly away) Fly away (I want to fly, wow-woh, no, fly away) |
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Subject: Lyr Add: LEGAL-ILLEGAL (Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger From: Barry Finn Date: 02 Nov 03 - 02:28 AM IMHO, it's a far greater crime than terrorism, I'd prefer to call it crimes against humanity, committed here & abroad. I'm terrified & in fear of dying needlessly & leaving my wife & kids holding a bag that they'll never fill. I fear that someday I'll end up having to make the choice between food or medication like a lot of our elderly do after working their life away only to find that's there's no coverage for them. I'm terrified of 1st of not having a job which in most cases means not having medical coverage, 2nd having/taking a job only for its coverage & 3rd knowing that I have become a slave to medical insurance. The 1st time I went to fill one of my many prescriptions I was told the insurance company hadn't ok'd the meds yet. I figured, no sweat, I'll pay out of pocket & get reimbursed later. A one month supply would cost me $1250.00. My next thought was I've got another 6 or so other prescriptions to be filled. My last thought was without my medications there's a good chance I'm dead within a month or two & how the hell will my family be able to pay for my burial costs & eat at the same time. Without coverage, the hospital would've taken my home to pay off my bills & left my kids out on the street. I've spent over 30 yrs working at the same trade & I'm what Kendall says, 1 step away from disaster. I also know I'm better off than many. I think that a very large part of the population hasn't got a clue of how close many of them are to that same disaster. When CEO's of large corporations are in bed with politicians who turn a blind eye while lending a helping hand in seeing that your life's savings are blown away like dust, it doesn't strike up a little fear in you? If not then maybe it's not fear that you're feeling, maybe it's terror. When you find out that buying medications across national borders costs 1/3 of what you pay around the corner for the same thing, what's your 1st thought. Tell me you're not in a rage when some fancy fast talking legislator gets up to say that buying American is the American way & it should be illegal to spend your hard earned cash where the drug companies don't want you to spend it (free trade?). It should be illegal to stand up & propose a cap on the responsibility & liability of those industry giants that would 1st suck you dry & then tell you to bugger off when their screw up cost you an arm or a leg or your life or your child's. I would like to thank Bush though for the $300 or so back on my taxes, I would've preferred keeping my job, thank you very much. How many of the poor & unhealthy & homeless people would 87 billion have helped or saved? How many kids wouldn't have got left behind? Crimes against humanity, could this be a reason for not wanting to be a part of a world court?
(by either Ewan MacColl or Peggy Seeger or both) Every time you pick up the newspaper Every time you switch on the TV You can bet your old boots that at some point you'll see A high-ranking copper or Tory MP Calling on all who are British & free To stand up & defend law & order
It's illegal to rip off a payroll
It's illegal to kill off a landlord
If your job turns you into a zombie
If you fashion a bomb in the kitchen
It's illegal if you are a gypsy
It's illegal to carve up your missus
It's legal to join a trade union
It's legal to sing on the telly Goodnight all, I'm gonna try & sleep off this nightmare. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: InOBU Date: 02 Nov 03 - 12:43 AM Anger is not unQuaker, bitterness is. Anger does not pre suppose hate. I am quite angrey that this nation takes most of what the world produces and uses it to support fewer and fewer, and rewards the hard work of the most of its people, well, not enough to get the minimun needs of life. If you read about the fall of the Roman empire, after overextending itself, Rome could no longer provide the basic needs of civil society. It is time we got angery enough to make change. Now, this does not mean angrey enough to set up a gilliteen in the middle of central park, but angery enough to vote for a government which puts the needs of the common worker first. I remember when I was in my twenties refering to Irish teath, from the lack of health care Irish folks showed, it was an aspect of neglect long seen as the mark of the immagrant community in Irish New York, now it is the native New Yorker who can't afford to go to the dentist. I know, my wife and I are in that number. Anger does not mean go out and shoot someone, or stop loving the wrong doer, don't parents get angery at their kids... now don't lie about it, sure you do, we are the parents of our government in this republic and we have been neglectful and now are paying the price in 18,000 a year dead, think of that in a decade that is more death than a the Viet Nam war. Cheeers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Nov 03 - 12:05 AM Larry, I have answered your unfounded assumptions via PM. Surprise, surprise, surprise! ;~) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Bobert Date: 01 Nov 03 - 11:41 PM Ahhhh, all part of the plan... Read "Old Nazis, the New Right and Rebublican Party" by Russ Bellant for the details.... Think then any of you, who don't have a clue here, will... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: katlaughing Date: 01 Nov 03 - 11:23 PM Jim Dixon, I take blood pressure medicine, now, and am not able to work. I do not qualify for any government aid, of any kind. Therefore, the past few years I have been working on myself, doing everything that I can to be healthier. It's a long process, but I am managing. Taken literally your argument sounds as though you think we might as well eat, drink, and be merry, because we're all going to have failing bodies sometime so why bother trying to prolong the good health. That's something that just makes no sense to me. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: LadyJean Date: 01 Nov 03 - 11:03 PM 10 years ago, I broke my left arm, very badly. It required surgery. I had been caring for my mother, and I had no health insurance. Eventually, after several months of dealing with a collection agency that seemed to think I had $17,000 stuffed in my mattress, I managed to convince the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to pay my bills. 10 months after the accident I was declared to be on Medicaid at the time of the accident. So, the bills were taken care of. I probably would have survived without the surgery. Whether I would have the use of my left arm, is another question. If we want a more productive workforce, we are going to need better health care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Nov 03 - 10:46 PM Have some Love Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: InOBU Date: 01 Nov 03 - 06:23 PM I would hazzard a guess that Susan has health coverage. My family does not. I listen to someone I love groaning in pain in her sleep, with nothing to do, but for both of us to take an entire day off work for a full day at a clinic, where we don't get the tests needed at the end of, well several days, and we reach the end of the coverage the clinic provides, not for free mind you as we both work, but don't make enough to add to our cost of living $700 a month to cover us both. I don't know why my wife is sick, I hope we find out soon, as she has been in terrible pain since March. Do I feel any, any, any threat from the far east, here in my apartment where I am still cleaning fine grey dust from ever nook, no, none at all. Do I feel our lives are threatened by a network of American systems which bleed our class dry. You bet. Call it terrorism, call it canabalism, call it depraved heart killing, murder by neglect. I don't care what you call it, but millions in this nation are being killed by rationing care we are owed because we have created every small bit of wealth those living on the fat of the land have. Wake up, you may be the next one without hope of seeing a docotor when you need it. Not one American is comfortable enough that they can say with surity that some turn of fate will not dump you in the waiting room of an ER that will treat the symtom you present with and not spend the time and money to diagose the illness. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Bill D Date: 01 Nov 03 - 05:27 PM oh..BTW, I meant to add something.. Cluin: Larry/InOBU has his problems with spelling/typing--a little looking will tell you that. We don't need special posts pointing it out anymore than we need excessive rhetoric. Ok? Let's reply to the ISSUE, not the spelling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Bill D Date: 01 Nov 03 - 05:23 PM we DO have health insurance...barely. We are paying $$$ we can ill afford in order to make it to my Medicare age next year. The HMOs have made what care we DO get a tedious mess. I have strong opinions about why is has come to this, many of them similar to Larry's. MY only point was about excessive rhetoric. In every struggle, there are some at the front lines, yelling slogans and getting attention. I suppose that is part of the game, but I just don't fit in that role. I totally agree that big business and corporate America have little conscience and NO plans to find some, but I will still look very carefully at what I choose to call them when I protest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Nov 03 - 04:49 PM The basic point of your thread is entirely correct, Larry. The USA is a society that in some respects is very rich and powerful...but in other respects is like some wretched 3rd World society in a state of unravelling decay. Americans are constantly told by their schools and media about the first part, while they remain largely unaware of the second. It's a population in denial, sustained in their mythology and ignorance, imagining that they live in the "greatest society on Earth". The average Cuban since Castro's revolution has been treated with far more human decency and consideration (and EQUALITY) than has the average American (and is healthier than the average American too)...but I know how futile it is to even suggest such a notion to people who have bought the myth of the American Dream. The American Dream is a dream of the affluent few at the top...it has no pity on the rest of humanity. If you're American, you've probably got a DVD player and a Nintendo and a personal computer, but you haven't got a decent health care system or a government that really gives a damn about ordinary people's health and welfare, despite what they may say at election time. Your government is a hostage of private enterprise moguls, once known as "robber barons". They devour the poor for profit. (And I am not opposed to free enterprise in itself...I am opposed to gigantic, centralized, corporate free enterprise that establishes unofficial monopolies, hides its profits in overseas tax shelters, and ruins the World in the process.) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Cluin Date: 01 Nov 03 - 04:41 PM Nor terrorstis neither. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 01 Nov 03 - 04:29 PM terrorist n... One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism. terrorist adj.... Of, relating to, or constituting terrorism. — terrorism... 1. The use of terror, violence, and intimidation to achieve an end. 2. Fear and subjugation caused by this. 3. A system of government that uses terror to rule... AHD So, how many fears a day are considered 'normal'... Is our common media basicly an instrument of terrorism?... 'Bad news is good buisness' or so someone once said... So, how is this fresh Renaissance going to get it's feet off the ground if we can't each of us follow our love of humanity and being... for fear of some tiresome magnitude... It is indeed awe-inspiring to behold... how much petty and fearsome nonsense has taken the rightful place of goodness... ...gather your brilliance and do something really beautiful! ttr PS... I'm of the opinion that one ought not label health professionals 'terrorists'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists kill 18,000 in USA every year From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Nov 03 - 04:20 PM The worst names need to be reserved for the worst offences. But which are the worst offences, in terms of causing death and suffering to innocent people? However that's not the determining factor. It's best not to think of words like that as some kind of badge of infamy. They should rather be used as a way of classifying the activity involved. So it's better to restrict the word "terrorism" to instances where terror is used as a weapon - deliberately causing death and suffering as a way of making people do things they otherwise would not do. When you shoot people who are shooting at you, or getting ready to shoot at you, that's not "terrorism", whether you are a regular soldier or an insurgent or whatever. But when you bomb civilians as a way of breaking their morale, that's terrorism, whether the bomb is delivered from an aeroplane or a missile or in a shopping trolley. And I wouldn't think that organising society in a way that denies adequate health care to many of its citizens in the richest country in the world can really be appropriately termed "terrorism". But that wouldn't be on the grounds that somehow it might not be quite as bad when it comes to causing death and suffering. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: kendall Date: 01 Nov 03 - 03:35 PM Almost everyone I know is one paycheck from disaster. We can afford 87 billion dollars to rebuild Iraq, but we can't afford half that amount for single payer health insurance. And yet, we think we should tell the world how to live! No wonder they hate us; I detest arrogance myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 03 - 03:22 PM Linking this with terrorism might be a little over the top, but I see what Larry's getting at. 2,700+ people are killed when the World Trade Center is attacked by terrorists, and it swamps the news for weeks and it turns the whole country in a new direction. 18,000 people die per year, but since they don't do it all at once, in a group, and there's no loud bang, the news doesn't cover it at all and nobody much seems to be concerned. When the richest country in the world doesn't have a national health service (and you can hardly call Medicare and Medicaid a "national health service;" it's better than nothing, but it's ridiculously inadequate), sick folks are not the only thing that's sick. Here's another tidbit: I can't remember which program I saw it on (one of the TV news magazines, like 60-Minutes), but a week or so ago they ran a story about hospital emergency rooms around the country shutting down. People without health insurance often don't go to a doctor when they are sick simply because they can't afford to. They try to tough it out, take two aspirin, go to bed, and hope they'll be better in the morning. Then they wind up really sick. They head for the emergency room, to be told that they are seriously ill, which they would not have been had they sought medical care when the condition first came on. It would have been far less expensive to take care of then, but now they are in for some really serious medical expense. Assuming the person survives, more often than not they wind up deeply in debt and are never able to pay it off. As a result, the hospital just has to eat it. This situation is on the increase, and the costs to hospitals running emergency rooms are often more than the hospital cares to contend with. So many hospitals around the country are shutting them down. Now, where does the sick person go? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Bill D Date: 01 Nov 03 - 02:57 PM couldn't have said it better, Susan.... Larry...the situation is indeed something to be concerned about, but that sort of rhetoric almost never helps your cause. The worst names need to reserved for the worst offenses. Call them greedy, call them selfish, call them insensitive, call them MANY things...but if you call them names which refer to other sins, you attract attention to your own logic, not to your concerns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 03 - 02:46 PM Larry, just because you can touch off an adrenaline storm doesn't mean you have engaged people's thinking. I personally don't appreciate having my sympathies manipulated with inflammatory thread titles. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: InOBU Date: 01 Nov 03 - 02:37 PM Fine, if you don't think your money or your home, your health, your life is Terrorism, shall we call it canabalism? Our working class is consumed for the comfort of the well off of the healthcare industry and the insurence industry. So, where are the "Christian" missionaries? Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 03 - 02:01 PM "Terrorists"? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Jim Dixon Date: 01 Nov 03 - 01:41 PM Kat: Whether we have a "health care revolution" or not, the death rate will always remain the same: one per person. (I wish I could give credit to the first person who said that.) And no matter how healthful your lifestyle, and no matter how long you stay healthy, there will probably eventually come a time when you will need medical care to stay alive. And what will you do then? Will you say, "Well, I've lived a long and fruitful life. Rather than take my blood pressure medication, or my insulin (or whatever), I think I'll just die now"? And do you plan to keep working up to the very end, so you can pay all your own medical expenses? Do you plan to die as soon as your expenses exceed your earnings? Making people healthier won't solve the problem of health care expenses. Making people healthier only delays the time when their medical expenses catch up with their earnings, but it's bound to catch up eventually (unless you die suddenly). And making people healthier will probably extend the time they live beyond the point where their expenses exceed their income. I look forward to the time when our nursing homes will be occupied mostly by 100+-year-old people instead of 70- and 80-year-olds, but we will always have them, and we will always have to pay for them somehow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Gareth Date: 01 Nov 03 - 01:28 PM Mmm! Nye Bevan termed it - "Freedom from Fear" FGR included it as part of his "Four Freedoms" I have no brief for the insurance/business/Republican lobby in the states, but Larry, to conjoin this as "rerrorism" is not condusive to accurate discussion. Following you logic we should bomb the offices of the insurance companies. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: Mickey191 Date: 01 Nov 03 - 01:08 PM Another aspect of our system are the Dr's who will not accept medicare patients.I had two hospital- izations which I paid for totally out of my own pocket. Big Bucks! I then became covered under Medicare, and some of the Doctors who were only to glad to take my money, now will not see me. Medicare limits their charges and the paper work is too much. Still another angle: I was told I had glaucoma and was treated for two years, paying the bills myself.The charges were averaging $125.00 every three months. One month before Medicare eligibility the Doc said,"I'd like you to start yearly visits - just for checkups." I said, "Is that safe? What about my glaucoma?" He said, "You don't have glaucoma, I never said you did." You could have hit me with a 2x4 and I wouldn't have been more surprised. I know what the creep said. It was just easy money-with no forms to fill out. A heartless, greedy bastard. So now I think we should have tape recorders when we see a Doctor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Nov 03 - 12:57 PM Well, it's stretchinhg the term - but not as far as might be thought. Terrorism can be defined as the use of methods that inspire terror, as a way of controlling the way people behave. The term appears to have originated primarily to describe the kind of things Governments sometimes get up to, directly and indirectly. (And it seems fairly clear that far more people have been killed by government backed terrorism than by other types of terrorist.) Whether it's justifiable to use it when people have died as a result of Government inaction rather than Government action is an interestimg point. However the word has been used in that sense, for example in relation to famine deaths in the USSR. As for "inspiring terror" - I think most people in Europe, and in many other parts of the world, would be terrified at the thought of having the kind of medical system which the USA has, in place of the various systems we have here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: InOBU Date: 01 Nov 03 - 12:54 PM My dear Friend John: When an uncaring nation and buinessmen make war on the working class of the U.S. making at lesast tens of thousands of homeless refugees and killing 18,000 a year so that the managements of these piratical companies live in comfort at the cost of these lives, frankly I can think of no other word. It causes far more real fear among we working Americans than anything happening in the rest of the world. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: ard mhacha Date: 01 Nov 03 - 12:33 PM So this is the land that will give the World the freedom enjoyed by ALL of its citizens. What a parcel of con-men. Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: John Hindsill Date: 01 Nov 03 - 12:25 PM Dear InOBU - Lack of health care and health insurance may be a tragic inequality for some folks, but it is not "terrorism". Please let's use the proper terms in our discourse. Such emotional words, ill-used, weaken your argument.---John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: katlaughing Date: 01 Nov 03 - 12:22 PM If more doctors would opt out of the insurance companies' agreements, I believe we could see a revolution of health care in our country. One doctor has done so in Massachusetts. Everyone pays her right out of their pocket AND gets a whole, uninterrupted hour with her. If doctors, etc. would focus on preventative care we could see a healthcare revolution in our country. But, of course, if people followed that, it would be an end to places such as McDonald's and all of the insidious fast food adverts on tv, etc. which could bring about their own kind of unemployed workers' troubles. It's a tangled web, BUT imo we have to take steps, even baby steps. That's why we said "no thanks" to health insurance that would have been more than our mortgage. We do the best we can with cash and preventative measures. People have to be willing to take that responsibility, if at all possible, in order to break out of the societal cycle which brings about such horrendous costs and ill-health. With respect, Susan, the peace and love are good and did help some during the 1960's, but it was the demonstrations of outrage, the willingness to die, as in Kent State, that really brought about change. I'm with Larry on this. Where is the outrage? Have we become so worn down that we can't carry that torch anymore and the younger ones don't know how? Or, are they demoralised from the getgo, thinking "what's the use?" kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorstis kill 18,000 in USA every year From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 03 - 12:03 PM Where is the peace, the light, the love, Larry? ~S~ |
