Subject: Origins: Prince Heathen From: Santa Date: 13 Nov 03 - 05:23 AM Last night Martin Carthy was in Blackpool and it was the first time I'd heard Prince Heathen live. It seems a very odd song to me - it doesn't seem to fit into the British Isles anywhere. Not that there's a lot of hints about the culture involved: mountains, horses, stone keep and that's about all. My wife suggested it might come from Spain: with the Moorish connection. To me it sounds perhaps more Eastern European - Hungarian, perhaps? Did it come from a gypsy source? But these are idle speculations - is the song's origin known? Does it have any parallels in other countries? |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: masato sakurai Date: 13 Nov 03 - 08:38 AM From here: Martin Carthy said in the Prince Heathen sleeve notes: |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: Santa Date: 13 Nov 03 - 09:00 AM Thanks Masato. I have the Vols 1 and 2 of the Loomis Child reprints on their way to me now, so I'll look to see what it says there, when they arrive, if it is in those volumes... I suspect they will simply move the question further back in time (and hence probably unanswerable?) I picked up Songs of Life last night, and already have the Collection. The comments there are basically the same as he said in the performance. However I still think that it doesn't seem/feel to be a British song in origin - unless it really does go an awful long way back. Or perhaps the musical equivalent of a modern fantasy novel? One pedantic point: I'd move the comma in the chorus. But never yet, you heathen dog..... |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 13 Nov 03 - 09:36 AM Child prints two texts (vol. II pp. 424-426); the first an eight-stanza garland text, The Disconsolate Lady (undated; the original is in The jovial rake's garland in the Douce collection, PP 164(18) at the Bodleian library; it was printed in Edinburgh) and the second, of 14 stanzas, from Peter Buchan's MSS (I, 97). Also referred to is a copy in Motherwell's MSS (p 665) which is derived from Buchan's. Child considered the B text to be "no doubt some stall-copy, reshaped from tradition". We should also remember that Buchan is not always above reproach where the authenticity of texts is concerned. He makes no reference to analogues in other traditions. One further example has since come to light; a text from Bell Robertson of Aberdeenshire, which appears in The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, VII, 461. There seems to be no record of any occurrence outside Scotland. I don't have vol. VII, but a look at the notes for the song may be helpful; perhaps Joe would oblige? I don't expect any revelations, though. Much of the exotic feel of the song as Martin Carthy has re-shaped it probably lies in the melody and phrasing he uses; these are entirely his, however (there is no known traditional tune for the ballad) and need to be disregarded when looking for clues as to the song's past history. Encounters with Heathen Knights of one sort or another are not that uncommon in the ballads, and stories about them persisted -and were made- long after there were any left to encounter. Finally, I should refer to the form of the song that Frankie Armstrong recorded. This appears to be a very free re-write of Martin Carthy's re-write, incorporating much material which does not appear in traditional versions. Perhaps some of it is adapted from Bell Robertson's text; we shall have to see. That notwithstanding, the Armstrong adaptation, though it tells us a lot about the ways in which the folk song revival has employed traditional material to new purposes, can tell us nothing about the history or antecedents of the ballad. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: rich-joy Date: 14 Nov 03 - 12:49 AM The sleeve notes for Frankie's LP "...Out of Love, Hope and Suffering" say about "Prince Heathen" : "A.L.Lloyd refurbished this ancient Child ballad ..." Cheers! R-J |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 14 Nov 03 - 01:17 AM So he did. I'd forgotten that. It's in the DT, in fact, with that note attached: Prince Heathen. Not only that, there's a midi of the tune Lloyd set his rewrite to at Mudcat Midis: Prince Heathen As it happens, it was I who supplied the midi. The lyric is very much in Bert's style; and barely half of it is genuine. It's a good piece of work, of course —his re-writes almost always were— but there isn't much left that's traditional in it, so, as I said, it can tell us nothing about the song's past history. I think he may have gone a bit too far in this case, perhaps: Martin's re-write sticks to the basics and avoids the temptation to introduce new material or indulge in fanciful imagery; and is the more powerful for it, I'd say. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 03 Dec 03 - 10:21 PM There is a Hungarian song on the same theme, Ballad of Master Rakoczi. I've read that Lloyd fleshed out an incomplete version of Prince Heathen with lyrics taken from the Hungarian ballad. The Hungarian song appears on the CD On Our Way by the Australian group, The Transylvaniacs, on the Tall Poppies label. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Dec 03 - 11:29 PM I'd like to know more about that song; it certainly is the kind of source Lloyd may have used. Whether Prince Heathen is incomplete or not (only three examples are known from tradition, as I've said) is a matter of opinion, but people always want more, I suppose. Unfortunately, Master Racokzi is also the name of one of the Immortal Ascended Masters that Madame Blavatsky discovered, so all the references I can find so far are on "Rosicrucian" sites and the like, and presumably irrelevant to our purpose. Did that Australian band say where they got their song? Do you know anything more about it? |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 03 - 09:15 AM This is about the COMMA referred to in Santa's note about the transcription on the Reinhard Zierke site. As I am the person credited with the transcription, I need to say that I usually do not include ANY PUNCTUATION in my transcriptions (of which there are hundreds on the Web - including every song recorded by Martin Carthy). Like legal documents, they are better off without it. Punctuation is supplied by editors, through interpretation, and may not represent the best intention of the song(/document) which may be fruitfully ambiguous. I have put a lot of thought into this, and welcome personal messages (as always). Garry |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: Garry Gillard Date: 04 Dec 03 - 09:20 AM Sorry, I was using the wrong browser, and didn't realise I wasn't recognised. ... I was the Garry in the previous message, claiming ownership of MC transcription. :) Garry |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 05 Dec 03 - 01:30 AM Malcolm Douglas wrote, "I'd like to know more about that song; it certainly is the kind of source Lloyd may have used.... Unfortunately, Master Racokzi is also the name of one of the Immortal Ascended Masters that Madame Blavatsky discovered, so all the references I can find so far are on "Rosicrucian" sites and the like, and presumably irrelevant to our purpose. Did that Australian band say where they got their song? Do you know anything more about it?" All I know is what's on the liner notes to the Transylvaniacs CD, which I'll have a look at when I can, but I don't think there's much there. They do have a website, and there's probably a contact address there. I'd recommend you just email them. |
Subject: origins: Prince Heathen From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Dec 03 - 02:07 AM Gee, what a powerful song. I take it that the Version in the Digital Tradition is the A.L. Lloyd version, but the notes in the entry are not clear about that. If anyone has the Lloyd version, could you compare it to the DT version for us? There's not much at the Traditional Ballad Index: Prince Heathen [Child 104]DESCRIPTION: Prince Heathen takes a girl against her will. He rapes her and offers her extreme cruelty, all to break her will. She never yields. At last her babe is born. After further abuse, bringing her close to death, her spirit fails; at last he acts humanAUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: KEYWORDS: rape abuse pregnancy FOUND IN: REFERENCES (2 citations): Child 104, "Prince Heathen" (2 texts) DT 104, PRINHEAT Roud #3336 File: C104 Go to the Ballad Search form The Ballad Index Copyright 2003 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
Subject: ADD Version: Prince Heathen From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Dec 03 - 02:10 AM Here are the two version from Child, obtained from http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/child/ch104.htm 104A: Prince Heathen
104B: Prince Heathen
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Subject: ADD Version: Prince Heathen From: Garry Gillard Date: 05 Dec 03 - 03:15 AM I set out the version I transcribed like this. See above for my note on punctuation. Garry Prince Heathen Sung by Martin Carthy on Prince Heathen (1969). A second recording, re-released on The Martin Carthy Chronicles (2001), was taken from a previously unreleased radio session from 1974, from John Peel's "Top Gear" BBC radio show. A third recording was made for Signs of Life (1998). The lyrics vary between the three recordings in only tiny details. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lady sits in her garden fair Sewing a silken seam And by there come this Prince Heathen And he vowed her love he'd gain O lady will you weep for me Lady tell me true Oh never yet you heathen dog I never shall for you She turned her around and aloud did cry Begone I love not you And then he vowed him Prince Heathen That she would weep full sore O lady will you weep for me Lady tell me true Oh never yet you heathen dog I never shall for you So he's laid her all on the ground Between himself and the wall And there he's stripped her of her will And her maidenhead and all O lady will you weep for me Lady tell me true Oh never yet you heathen dog I never shall for you Oh I slew your father in his bed And your mother by his side And your seven brothers one by one I drowned them in the tide O lady will you weep for me Lady tell me true Oh never yet you heathen dog I never shall for you Oh I'll lay you in a vault of stone With thirty locks upon And meat nor drink you will never get Till your baby it is born O lady will you weep for me Lady tell me true Oh never yet you heathen dog I never shall for you So he's laid her in a vault of stone With thirty locks upon And he's taken the key in his right hand To the mountain he has gone O lady will you weep for me Lady tell me true Oh never yet you heathen dog I never shall for you Prince Heathen he from the mountains came With his merry men all in a line And he sought out this fair young maid Down in her vault of stone And how d'you do and do you weep Lady tell me true I'm never weeping heathen dog But dying here for you Oh meat nor drink you'll never get Nor out of prison come Oh meat nor drink you will never get Till your baby it is born O lady will you weep for me Lady tell me true Ah never yet you heathen dog I never shall for you Her time came on and further on In labour there she lay She laboured up she laboured down But lighter she could not be O lady will you weep for me Lady tell me true Ah never yet you heathen dog And never yet for you So he's laid her all on the green And his merry men stood around And how they laughed and how they mocked As she brought forth a son O lady will you weep for me Lady tell me true Ah never yet you heathen dog I never shall for you A drink a drink the young girl cries All from Prince Heathen's hand Oh never a drop Prince Heathen cries Till ye give up your son Then lend to me a silken shawl Or a blanket or a sheet That I may wrap this little baby That lies in me arms asleep Oh I'll lend you an old horse blanket To wrap him head and feet And there she took it in her hand So bitter she did weep O lady do you weep for me Lady tell me true Oh never yet you heathen dog And never now for you Could you not give any better thing Than a horse blanket or a sheet To wrap and swaddle your own young son That lies in my arms asleep He's borne her up so very soft Borne her up so slow He's laid her down in a soft green bed So dearly he loved her now O lady will you weep for me Lady tell me true Ah never yet you heathen dog I never shall for you ------------------------------------------------------------------------ New: 12 February 2000 Now: 31 March 2001 Child #104. Transcribed by Garry Gillard. The transcription was originally of the Prince Heathen performance, but in a few places I have changed it to follow Martin Carthy's later preferences, in Signs of Life, where they make the sense clearer. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 08 Dec 03 - 12:15 AM I've had a look at the notes to The Ballad of Master Rakoczi on the Transylvaniacs CD, On Our Way, Tall Poppies TP063. First of all, there are a couple of diacritical marks that I'm not up to reproducing here, over the a and the o in Rakoczi. I'd call it an accent aigue if it were French. The liner notes read, "Katalin rejects her marriage to Rakoczi and shows it by addressing him formally rather than affectionately. He tries to make her submit through violence. She finally gives in but only to die shortly after. This comes from a time when there were many arranged marriages in Hungary and warns you must be careful how you treat your wife." There's no indication of how The Transylvaniacs came across this ballad. Full lyrics are given, both in Hungarian (they sing it in Hungarian) and English. It comes to 20 verses. I'm sorry but I'm not keen on typing it all out. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: breezy Date: 08 Dec 03 - 09:17 AM I'm not that keen on you writing it out either. It lacks a chorus dont you think? I wonder if I should ask Martin to do a shortened version this Friday at MY club. I just find these ballads a drag, unless they can be performed with drama, passion and actions. Dont any of you come cos we're chocablokka |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: breezy Date: 08 Dec 03 - 08:09 PM Friday 12th Dec Martin Carthy will perform at St.Stephens Church Hall, Watling Street, St Albans, Doors open 8.00 This is a St Albans Folk-song club presentation with support from Keith Snowden and George Papavgeris Tickets now available as a result of this venue change PM 4 details |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: GUEST,Santa Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:05 AM It's very interesting to find this possible Hungarian link - even more if it could be confirmed. Garry: punctuation can change the meaning of words, inside of songs or outside. Correct punctuation is as important for communication as grammar, syntax, or any other part of the language. I still think that the line "but never yet you heathen dog" benefits from a comma, the written equivalent of a vocal break for rest, or to separate ideas "But never, yet you heathen dog" gives us the phrase "yet you heathen dog" which is gibberish. "Yet" has no meaning in that phrase Yet what? The phrase cries out for completion. "but never yet, you heathen dog" seems to be better English, with both halves meaningful. Well, the first phrase is perhaps more poetical than a particularly good construction, but it does get the meaning across. Sorry if this seems excessively pedantic to you. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: Bearheart Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:12 PM Very interesting thread. I would be interested in the source for the Hungarian version. Is there a way to contact the band to find this out? And where did you run across the CD? I would also like more info on this group and the other stuff they perform. I'm always looking for ballads from Europe (particularly eastern Europe and Scandinavia) that are related to the Child ballads. Bekki |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:25 PM It might be a little premature to describe it as "a Hungarian version", though there do seem to be some points of similarity from the little we have been told. I see no sign of a website for the band, though their record company has one: http://www.tallpoppies.au.nu/ |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:32 PM http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/~castopic/trannies.htm is URL for The Transylvaniacs. Bearheart - I was at the launch for the CD some years ago, and have seen the band perform here in Sydney many times. I was pleasantly surprised to see the CD on the racks at a store in New York City when I visited once, so it has had at least a little distribution outside Australia. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: Le Scaramouche Date: 26 Jun 05 - 07:42 AM I was sure I had read this story somewhere, when I saw the Hungarian bit, it clicked. Several years ago I had read several books of folk tales and legends, which were mostly Eastern and Central European, there was a very similar story about a pagan (or Turkish) king (or knight) who kidnaps a woman who bears his child, yet refuses to have anything to do with him. I think she either plots to escape or murder him, but memory is hazy. Anyway, take this for what it's worth until I can find the book again. Allen |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: *Laura* Date: 26 Jun 05 - 01:17 PM Martin says in the sleevenotes that he changed the ending slightly becasue the original version made him really angry - what was the original version?? (don't hold me to this though cos they're not in front of me - i just seem to remember it that's all) xLx |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: The Borchester Echo Date: 26 Jun 05 - 01:59 PM Some versions go on to have Prince Heathen repenting and giving orders for Margaret to be dressed in fine clothes etc but still end with her telling him what he can do with them. This is the one recorded by Frankie Armstrong: Prince Heathen |
Subject: RE: Origins: Prince Heathen From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 26 Jun 05 - 11:16 PM As has already been mentioned, Frankie Armstrong recorded Bert Lloyd's extensive, colourful and very imaginative re-write of the song, so that tells us nothing about its history; though a fair bit about Bert, perhaps. The two texts in Child have already been quoted here. There is only one other known from tradition; in Greig-Duncan (from Bell Robertson, therefore with no tune. See references above). Martin will also have known about that one; so far as I can remember, I haven't seen it, so I don't know how it ends. At any rate, it to those you must look if you want to know more about the song as it was, as opposed to how it has been re-invented in recent years. |
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