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Lyr Req: The Croppy Boy (from Barbara Dickson)

DigiTrad:
THE CROPPIE BOY
THE CROPPIE BOY (3)
THE CROPPY BOY (2)


Related threads:
(origins) Origin: The Croppy Boy (18)
Tune Req: The Croppy Boy (9)


GUEST,Topcat 13 Nov 03 - 07:34 AM
Sorcha 13 Nov 03 - 11:03 AM
Sorcha 13 Nov 03 - 11:10 AM
Kevin Sheils 13 Nov 03 - 11:39 AM
Noreen 13 Nov 03 - 07:05 PM
Kevin Sheils 14 Nov 03 - 11:54 AM
Noreen 14 Nov 03 - 08:08 PM
Kevin Sheils 15 Nov 03 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Topcat 18 Nov 03 - 07:53 PM
Joe Offer 19 Nov 03 - 03:14 AM
Kevin Sheils 19 Nov 03 - 06:24 AM
Big Tim 19 Nov 03 - 09:22 AM
Kevin Sheils 20 Nov 03 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,topcat 20 Nov 03 - 08:34 AM
Noreen 20 Nov 03 - 11:47 AM
Kevin Sheils 20 Nov 03 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,topcat 20 Nov 03 - 03:41 PM
Jim Dixon 20 Nov 03 - 07:39 PM
Malcolm Douglas 20 Nov 03 - 08:16 PM
Kevin Sheils 21 Nov 03 - 03:54 AM
Big Tim 21 Nov 03 - 10:07 AM
Kevin Sheils 21 Nov 03 - 10:49 AM
Malcolm Douglas 21 Nov 03 - 11:33 AM
Kevin Sheils 21 Nov 03 - 12:18 PM
Malcolm Douglas 21 Nov 03 - 12:52 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: GUEST,Topcat
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 07:34 AM

I recall Barabara singing a version of the *Croppy Boy* way back in her folk club days. One line of the ballad still resonates althought the remainder of the words have vanished, The refrain begins, *the very next step he took up the ladder"---------- ! Any help would be much appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 11:03 AM

No luck at all with these clues....any more?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 11:10 AM

I found Barbara's lyrics page and it has lyrics from pre 1969-2002 and Croppy Boys is not there unless it is under another title.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Bo
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 11:39 AM

Sounds like a version of the Streets Of Derry or sometimes called Derry Gaol as sung by Sarah Makem.

Some interpret the chap on the gallows as a "rebel" from the 1798 rising but on the LP I have of Sarah Makem singing it she just suggests it's a lover marrying above his/her station.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Noreen
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 07:05 PM

That also occurred to me, Kevin. Topcat, there's a thread here: Lyr Req: Streets of Derry (Derry Gaol) on that song- would it be the one you're looking for?

It's not necessarily Croppy Boy-related, though some claim it's set in 1798.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Bo
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 11:54 AM

The version of Streets Of Derry in DT doesn't have the lines the very next step he took up the ladder..... but the Sarah Makem version has all the DT words IIRC as well as those other lines.

Haven't ploughed through the thread Noreen points to yet to see if more verses are there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Noreen
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 08:08 PM

Yes it does, Kevin, that's why I linked to that rather than the DT version.
Lyrics are quite early on in the thread.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Bo
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 04:59 AM

Yes. I see the version in the other thread is fuller and has the steps up the ladder... lines, but there is even more in the Sarah Makem version. Before the verse about the clergyman she also has verses about stepping up the ladder and, first his aged mother is standing by and then his aged father, which links it closer to the Hangman/Pricklie Bush family than the DT verses.

Which, incidentally is why I used Sarah Makem's version as the opening track on my first Resonance 104.4FM programme followed by Ledbelly's Gallows Pole as I themed the show on comparing similar or related songs from both sides of the Pond and those two were as far apart but still connected as I could easily pull out of my collection.

I'm sure it must be the song referred to in the thread although Barbara Dickson doesn't appear to have recorded it (according to the web site) but it does fit in with her "traditional" style material so she may well have sung it way back.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: GUEST,Topcat
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 07:53 PM

Thanks to all who helped out and developed the thread, I am still left with a feeling that somehow the "Derry" lyrics are near but the repeating refrain,"the very next step he took up the ladder, (which I assume is the gallows) is the key to this what must be a "Croppy Boy" version. I have asked Barbara through her page, we will wait and see.
Once again thanks to Sorcha, Kevin and Noreen.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 03:14 AM

Topcat, please let us know what you find, and post lyrics if you ge them.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE CROPPY BOY (from Sarah Makem)
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 06:24 AM

I mentioned that the extra verses that Sarah Makem sang are not, as far as I can see, in DT or the thread above so for "completeness" (whatever that means) here are the words as from the LP booklet. They are fairly close to the Peter Bellamy words as given.

Oh, it's after morning, there comes an evening,
And after evening another day,
And after false love, there comes a true one,
It's hard to hold them that will not stay.

As he went walking up the streets of Derry,
I'm sure he marched up right manfully;
He was more like a commanding officer
Than a man to die on the gallows tree.

The very first step he went up the ladder,
His blooming colours began to fail,
With heavy sighs with dismal cries,
"Is there no releasement from Derry Gaol."

The very next step he went up the ladder,
His aged mother was standing by.
"Come here, come here my old aged mother
And speak one word to me before I die."

The very next step he went up the ladder,
His aged father was standing by.
"Come here, come here my old aged father
And speak one word to me before I die."

The very next step he went up the ladder,
His loving clergyman was standing by.
"Stand back, stand back, you old prosecutors,
I'll let you see that he will not die."

"I'll let you see that you dare not hang him
'Til his confession unto me is done;
And after that, that you dare not hang him
'Til within ten minutes of the setting sun."

"What keeps my love, she's so long a-coming?
Or what detains her so long from me?
Or does she think it a shame or scandal
To see me die on the gallows tree?"

He looked around and he saw her coming,
And she rode swifter than the wind,
Come down, come down, off that weary gallows,
For I bear pardon all from the Queen."

"Come down, come down, off the weary gallows,
For I bear pardon all from the Queen."
I'll let them see that they dare not hang you,
And I'll crown my Willie with a bunch of green."


The LP booklet states that the story can be interpreted as both revolutionary and romantic and quotes Sarah Makem's view as

A young gentlemen that fell in love with a rich lady and her parents didn't want him to get her, and she fought hard to get him and she went away to the Queen and got pardon. She took her Willie and she married him and defied her parents - she was right. I didn't blame her one bit. He was the fellow she wanted and she was right to take him.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:22 AM

It's not this verse from the Croppy Boy is it?

As I was mounting the scaffold high.
My aged father was standing by,
My aged father did me deny,
And the name he gave me was the Croppy boy.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Bo
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 04:20 AM

Yes there's clearly some crossover between the Croppy Boy, Derry Gaol and the Hangman group of ballads, in verse structure if not in story.

But it's still not clear what BD sang, I'd guess Streets of Derry (Derry Gaol) as it seems more like her style but that's purely guess work, and some do connect it with 1798.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: GUEST,topcat
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 08:34 AM

I have a reply from Barbara's agent who very promptly asked her for details. It would appear that Kevin is correct when he suggested the extra verses which Peter Bellamy used. The ballad is indeed The "Derry Gaol" which Barbara used from Sarah Makem. The repeating line "the very next step he took up the ladder" ends a thirty year lyrical riff which now thanks to all is resolved. As for the other crossover between "Croppy Boy" well there goes another thread.
All the best and thanks to all.
Topcat


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Noreen
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 11:47 AM

You're welcome, topcat- very glad to have played a part in solving this!

:0)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Bo
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:50 PM

Now the next question is "Why didn't she record it?" :-)


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Subject: Lyr Add: DERRY JAIL / WEARY GALLOWS
From: GUEST,topcat
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 03:41 PM

Hello All here are the lyrics from "B's" agent
fresh from her pen.

The song is sometimes called "The Weary Gallows"

Oh, after morning, there comes an evening
And after evening another day
And after a false love, there comes a true one
But it's hard to hold them that will not stay


My love he is as nice a man
As e'er nature framed or the sun shone on
But how to gain him, I do not know
He has got his sentence for to be hung


As he went walking up the streets of Derry
I'm sure he marched up right manfully
He was more like a commanding officer
Than a man to die on the gallows tree


As he went walking up the streets of Derry
His blooming colours began to fail
With mournful cries and with dismal sighs
Is there no releasement from Derry Jail?


The very first step he went up the ladder
His aged mother was standing by
"Come here, come here, my old aged mother
I'd speak a word to you before I die"


The very next step he went up the ladder
His aged faher was standing by
"Come here, come here, my old aged father
I'd speak a word to you before I die"


The very next step he went up the ladder
His loving clergyman was standing by
"Stand back, stand back, you old prosecutor
I'll let you see that he will not die"


"I'll let you see that you dare not hang him
'Till his confession unto me is done
And then again that you dare not hang him
'Till within ten minutes of the setting sun"


What keeps my love, she's so long a coming?
Or what detains her so long from me?
Or does she think it a crime or a scandal
To see me die on the gallows tree?


He looked around and he saw her coming
And she rode swifter than any wind
"Come down, come down off that weary gallows
For I bear pardon all from the Queen"


"Come down, come down off that weary gallows
For I bear pardon all from the Queen
I'll let them see that they dare not hang you
And I'll crown my Willie with a bunch of green"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 07:39 PM

The lyrics posted by Topcat above seem to be identical to the ones found at http://www.makem.com/discography/recordings/lyricpage/derryjail.html - but there it's called DERRY JAIL.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 08:16 PM

Exactly so. Kevin didn't make his comments idly.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Bo
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:54 AM

Interestingly the lyrics printed from BD's agent and the Makem website have an extra 2nd verse from those printed in the Folk Songs of Britain LP Booklet accompanying Sarah Makem's recording.

Now I know that that series left out a number of verses on the recordings to cram as much into the LP format as possible, but they usually printed the complete lyrics marking the missing verses, but do not have that 2nd verse.

I don't have a recording of Sarah Makem singing it in full to see if that is her 2nd verse (missing from both my recording and the booklet), somebody out there may have a fuller recording.

My "guess" is that, as the above web site is Tommy Makem's, he may have adapted the words himself and added that verse, but I'll keep an open mind until I hear a "full" SM version.

I enjoy these threads as they make you revisist old vinyl etc.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 10:07 AM

Surely this is "Streets of Derry", or some similar title: where does "Croppy Boy" fit in?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Bo
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 10:49 AM

Read the thread Big Tim it's all there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 11:33 AM

That second verse is also missing in the transcription in Kennedy's Folksongs of Britain and Ireland. It appears in the Belfast set in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, however, and in the set recorded by Hugh Shields (Folk Ballads from Donegal and Derry, 1972) -for example- in both cases as first verse instead of Sarah Makem's stanza. It does seem to be the more usual opening.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Bo
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 12:18 PM

Peter Kennedy and Sean O'Boyle recorded the Sarah Makem version on the LP I took the text from so I assume PK's book was based on the versions he collected as part of the BBC project.

The only traditional recording I'm aware that I've got is the SM one. Do you know if there is a recorded version readily available of the Hugh Shields (no relation) version. I'm guessing that it's probably Susie Phaidi Oig: The Weary Gallows on Hugh Shields Leader album from 1972, but that's one of the Leader LPs I don't have and I assume is unavailable along with most of the old Leader/Trailer catalogue.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Barbara Dickson (version of Croppy Boy)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 12:52 PM

The transcription in Kennedy's book is of the Sarah Makem recording, yes. You're also right on the Shields recording. The album languishes in the vaults of the egregious Dave Bulmer, sadly, and I don't know of Mrs Cunningham's set being available in any other form.


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