Jesus - Did he exist?

Subject: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: GUEST,Mojoman
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 02:24 PM

What's the current thinking on this issue? I read somewhere that there are various schools of thought. Some say that a person called Jesus may have existed but that he was nothing like the person depicted in the bible. I also read somewhere that a lot of the Catholic clergy are rather sceptical of Jesus's miracle workings. Anyway, what is the latest consensus(!) on all this.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 02:27 PM

Currently there's no 'proof'

But does it matter... if you want believe something like that, proof is immaterial to you...

(A BS thread, I suspect, yes?)

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: sapper_82
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 02:31 PM

There is apparently more documentary evidence that someone called Jesus (or the Aramaic version of our anglicised form) lived in the Holy Land about 2000y ago and caused a bit of a stir than there is for Julius Caesar's invasion of Britain!!

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 02:55 PM

Apparently there were hundreds of Jesus's in Palestine in New Testament times ,as it was a common name.However the one in question appears to have been a Socialist ,as he seems to have suffered from hypocricy. Espousing the virtues of poverty,meekness ect,while working for a seat on Gods right hand.    Could there be a parallel in the Blair Government??    Cheers Ake.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 02:58 PM

Try Google!

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 03:00 PM

There was a a guy named Jesus sitting with Juan, Rosalita and Maria when the plane went down in Los Gatos Canyon.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Amergin
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 03:19 PM

I think there was a fellow named Jesus who became a revolutionary figure...a political/religious figure...many mythologies tend to be based on fact...I think he was also crucified as that was a common punishment at one time...for stirring up the people against the establishment...

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Strick
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 03:21 PM

"Apparently there were hundreds of Jesus's in Palestine in New Testament times ,as it was a common name."

Naturally, since Jesus is just the Greek translation of Joshua.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Mickey191
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 03:30 PM

As Akenaton says, it was (and still is) a popular name. Whether he was the product of a virgin birth is, for me, a bit hard to fathom. As also the "rose again from the dead" story. Too much of a pragmatist to buy it.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 03:36 PM

I don't know what the general consensus is, but I raised this very question and the consensus (small small) seems to be that there was actually a rabblerouser who got nixed by the Establishment, yes. Jesus is not unlikely as a name for this real person who then came to be thought of as (what we are now discussing)... but my personal jury is still out on it. I do think Mohammed and Moses were historical, yes?

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 03:38 PM

Ask His Dad!

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 04:09 PM

"What is the current consensus?" *sigh*...this HAS to be a troll...I wonder why someone calling themself "Mojoman" would suddenly appera in a folk music forum and ask that?

Let's understand: If someone PROVED there was a historical Jesus, non-believers in the religious aspect would not change their minds. And if all the research in the world failed to prove his existence, the believers would likely still believe as they do.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Amergin
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 04:16 PM

if there was a jesus....that does not mean that he was the son of god...

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 04:31 PM

Ditto, brucie...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 04:31 PM

Virgin birth, being the son of (a) god, and rising from the dead are all sort of "standard" (or at least often-used) features of religions of the period.

As far as I know from what reading I've done, there seems to be no contemporary documentation on such a Yeshua/Joshua/Jesus. Everything we know on his existence documentary-wise was written at least forty years later, by people already firmly in the Christian camp.

Of course that doesn't prove the negative, which is a hard thing to do under the best of circumstances.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 04:41 PM

I'm pretty certain the Biblical Jesus existed. Having said that, although I don't know who wrote them, the contents of The Ten Commandments and The Sermon On The Mount are admirable guides for a decent life.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 05:21 PM

I believe Jesus existed and that he was a good man.

I do however reject the theory of the immacuate conception and that he was the son of God.

Did Mary fool around?

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 05:36 PM

The story of Horus predates JC's and is almost identical.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 05:37 PM

I don't think it's necessary to believe in his existance - it's more important to attempt to act in a Christ-like manner. That's my definition of a Christian. And most of us - myself included - fail at being a Christian every day.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 05:44 PM

As the cloned Kahless said to Worf just before he beamed down to the Klingon home world, "If the words are true, what does it matter who said them?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 06:01 PM

Uncle DaveO is right that proving a negative is hard, but I'm not sure there is much controversy on this issue. Jewish, Christian and Muslim establishments all believe that Jesus existed. Most historians believe that he did, too. While it is true that most of the evidence comes from later, this would not be unusual of a person living in the Roman world who died at age 30. Some of the writings related to Jesus claim to be firsthand accounts, and some of those are pretty consistent with one another, so there's no reason to assume he didn't. As both Amergin and BillD pointed out, it is irrelevant in several different ways anyway :)

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 06:10 PM

Wow. You haven't done a lot of research, have you?

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 06:31 PM

Better educated folks than me are taking a crack at this question, and especially trying to figure out WHAT Yeshua said and did, as opposed to what the early Church says he said and did.

I suggest the books "The Five Gospels", "The Acts of Jesus," and "The Gospel of Mary" from the Jesus Seminar. You might also check the Gospel of Q
and the Gospel of Thomas, as well as a whole bunch of other things. And don't ignore the problem raised by the Gnostics, who seem to have wanted to inject a "hierarchy of mysteries" into it.

I think that Yeshua existed; the crux of the problem (pun intended) is to try to figure out, 2000 years later, what that dude REALLY said and did.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 06:34 PM

" Most historians believe that he did, too."

Oh no they do not!

Every single piece of evidence that has ever been brought to the fore to 'prove' the supposed existence of Jesus has been PROVEN to be a fake...

The 2 biggest pieces... The Shroud of Turin, and more recently the box that supposedly belonged to Jesus' brother...

Just by way of example...

(note... The Bible, and the writing therein is NOT proof)

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 06:39 PM

Dear Nerd,

When you say "most historians", I find it confusing. Would you cite a few references? The Romans kept remarkable records and a remarkable lot of them have survived. There is no one mentioned who parallels the biblical Jesus. This is not proof of anything, of course, but it is evidence. The gospels, which are supposed to have some of the best evidence, sometimes read as though written by a Martian who knew nothing of Roman law and custom. For example, the idea of Joseph and Mary traveling to register for a "great census"; sorry, no way. One registered at the nearest city. You didn't even have to go yourself.

Whether real or not; no one can say for certain. It is certain that there is no convincing proof. Even our "pilgrim forefathers" knbew that the Christmas storey was bunk. That's why they locked people up for celebrating it.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 06:44 PM

Hey M/m ... I was once locked up for celebrating Christmas!

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 06:53 PM

For non-Christians (and Christians I suppose), the divinity of Jesus (Yeshua, Son of God, etc) was established by the Council of Nicea under the Roman ruler, Constantine c. 320. That such a person existed seems pretty sure; the attributes he may or may not have had are up for grabs. Someone from the House of David was crucified (otherwise why the written sign, 'King of the Jews'?). There are excellent books that delve into the mystery (Holy Blood, Holy Grail; The Messianic Legacy). It seems fairly certain that such a person existed. However, what position he holds in the grand scheme of things is in the air for lots of people.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 07:08 PM

The immaculate conception theory is often misunderstood by non-Catholics. For a very long time I thought it was in reference to Mary being 'untouched' as she conceived. Only later did I learn that the theory espouses the view that Mary herself was sinless. Which brings up a different thought- if she were sinless, wouldn't that make her a god too? What complicated fools we mortals be!

The views of fundamentalist Christianity seem quite similar to the old views of the people toward the gods of mythology. God's 'need' for adulation and obedience; the endless singing around God's throne; 'eternal rest' by and by; pearly gates and streets of gold; God being aware of what each one is doing, thinking and feeling; hellfire and brimstone. On and on.

On the other hand, I still believe in a created universe, which implies a creator. The beginning of it all is not explained by science, imo. The stars and the planets came from matter that 'was always there'? How does that explain anything at all?

I have an unsophisticated view- I cannot conceive of time and decay producing greater intricacy. In my view everything eventually becomes more primal, more basic. An abandoned bicycle does not become a sleek Ferrari, it becomes a heap of rust which in turn becomes something even more basic. However, evolution within the system makes sense to me.

All this is pretty far from the question: did Jesus exist. It is easy to believe that there is a historical figure who inspired contemporaries by what he taught and how he lived. How that translates into being the 'only' son of God I haven't a clue. But what a legacy.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 07:26 PM

"Some of the writings related to Jesus claim to be firsthand accounts,"
...I hope you don't mean the 4 gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John...none of those writers were contemporaries of Jesus. I believe Matthew wrote 'about' 135 years after the claimed death of Jesus...the others 2 or 3 centuries later. (No, this proves nothing about the religious question)

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 08:12 PM

Doesn't matter. He exists now as a concept. Or maybe several concepts.

clint

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 08:25 PM

Before you start tossing dates around, PLEASE check out the links I put up backaways. The Gospel of Mark was probably the first written, probably around 90 CE. That there were other writings attributing their sayings to Yeshua is also fact -- the Nag Hammadi library, which includes one copy of the "Gospel of Mary of Magdala" for one.

I, myself, can't say for certain that any of YOU exist, much less someone who was supposed to have lived better'n 2K years ago. But some questions would have to be answered by those who claim that Big J didn't exist:

1. Given the undoubted and proven age of some of the manuscripts which profess to give his words, and the remarkable consistency thereof, are you proposing some widespread conspiracy?

2. Related to number 1, what would be the point? There were already enough religions (Mithraism, et al.) around to satisfy 'most anyone.

3. What became Christianity was originally a sub-sect of Judaism, and the Apostles were themselves divided about whether or not a Gentile could become a proto-Christian without first becoming a Jew. Paul, bless his li'l ol' misogynistic heart, was the first the open it up to non-Jews; Peter, the leader in Jerusalem, agreed but only after claiming direct word from Big Daddy ("What I have made clean..."). The Romans didn't care what you worshipped, as long as the plebes were quiet and the taxes rolled in. It's quite clear the Pilate did the deed he's credited with because he was asked to do so by the Jewish leaders -- not because of anything The Man had done. (Oh, yeah, there was no custom of releasing prisoners at Passover.)

4. The "King of Jews" sign was intended as sarcasm.

5. "..of the House and Family of David" was almost certainly added later, to provide authenticity to the claims of the early Christians that JC was The Messiah.

6. Roman records show that there were a LOT of folks popping up, claiming to be the Messiah.

Dang, I wish I had my books out of storage!!!

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 08:30 PM

On that virgin birth thing...

I find the "mistranslation" explanation to be the most likely... That the old word for 'virgin' was very close to the old word for "young girl" and the whole thing is a mistranslation...

Kinda like the old testament "Thou Shalt Not Kill" thing... (Which in the original document, most likely reads, "Thou shalt not murder"... A subtle but important difference)

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 08:32 PM

Has anyone here read 'Who Wrote the Gospels'? (Randel McCraw Helms. Millennium, 1997) Very interesting, informative and quite convincing.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: beadie
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 08:37 PM

Rapaire:

As to your not being able to affirm that any of us exist, at least as for myself, I refer to your countryman (M. Descartes) and declare,

    "Cogito, ergo sum."

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 08:47 PM

On the original question, did Jesus exist...?

Yes.

And if you think not, then tell yourself also that Buddha, Lao-Tse, Zoroaster, Moses, Krishna, and many others like them did not exist, and rest happy in your assumptions of intellectual impregnability, based upon nothing in fact but your little mental ego.

It's laughable that anyone has to even ask, at this point in human culture, whether Jesus existed, but I heard of a farmer who wouldn't believe in giraffes even after he'd see one, so anything is possible when it comes to belief or disbelief.

Now as to what Jesus was like, exactly, that's a whole other matter, and can lead to some interesting questions and speculations one way or another. I'm still speculating about it, and will probably never reach the end of doing so.

His name wasn't exactly "Jesus", it was "Yeshua" in the language of his time...but has been altered into "Jesus" (Gee-Zuss) in the English language, that's all. The Spanish language on the other hand calls him "Hay-soos" (English phonetic spelling of the Spanish word "Jesus").

- LH

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 09:01 PM

Ah, Beadie, je ne suis pas Francaise. Je suis un American, je vie en Idaho, E-U.

As for M. Descartes, I think that he was misunderstood. What he actually said (and I have this on Very Good Authority Indeed*) was, "Cogito cogito cogito, ergo, cogito cogito sum, cogito." He was a tad unsure of himself, you see.





*Musical fella name of Joe Green.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 09:07 PM

I wonder if Jesus would have been able to believe what has happened in the World since...? (It would not have been easy to, that's for sure.)

- LH

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 09:15 PM

One of the arguments postulated against the first gospel (likely Mark's) being written at such a late date is that no mention is made of the fall of the Temple (or Masada for that matter). Maybe those mentions were expunged. However, it's difficult to see something of that importance (fall of the Temple) being left out. That would then date the first writing to about 60-65 CE, and still 25 or so years after Jesus' death.

Trying to use the Bible as a historical document is difficult. We have the evidence from the Nag Hammadi that not all Gospels have been included in the Bible. We are only too aware that editors have been at the Bible, and various religions have decided to accept only certain books (see difference between Catholic and Protestant versions as to the books included). That Jesus was versed in the Old Testament is obvious. His entry into Jerusalem follows the OT account of the arrival of the Messiah in exquisite detail. But then, why wouldn't he be versed in the OT. He was Jewish and probably a 'minor' rabbi.

Interesting to note the wedding at Cana. In the Jewish custom, the groom served the wine. Why was Jesus serving the wine--after 'making' it? I don't think that the existence of Jesus is in question; however, I think the 'nature' of Jesus is. As Bill D said, no one's mind will be shifted because of anything written here. I mean no offense to anyone's beliefs or religion.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 09:23 PM

"would you like another drink, René?"

"I think not" *POOF*

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 09:42 PM

What's all this about incognito sums? The ergo I got. That's like "Ergo eff yourself", right?

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 10:11 PM

Knew a logician who died of ergo poisoning. Oh, nevermind.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 10:14 PM

ironic. Those who will doubt the validity of thousands of years of academic pursuit often done in adversarial circumstances...

...because they have faith in some novelist's imaginations that give substance to their faith in nothing.

An agnostic is someone who isn't sure there is a God -- but is damn sure you don't know.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 10:44 PM

Well, as a Christain, I'd just like to point out that the Gospels, written, yes, some 30 years after Jesus's death are consistent. The story seems to be similar enough... Throw in Paul's letters and I *believe* there is a sufficient body of evidence for *Faith*...

I think the only thing that I can say, which again cannot be emperically proven or disproven, those of us who have found Faith know we are better for it.

If you're lookin' for proof. Forget it. If you're lookin' for peace, a different story, indeed....

Bobert

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 12:13 AM

Asking if Jesus existed, and then saying, "But the evidence of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John doesn't count", makes as much sense as asking if Socrates existed, and then saying, "but the evidence of Plato, Xenophon, and Aristophanes doesn't count". Think about it.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 06:23 AM

I would think that the telling point, as Nerd pointed out, is that the MUSLIMS say that he existed, a minor prophet.

In some countries, he's been turned into a major profit.

Wasn't he a wrangler on 'Wagon Train?'

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 06:37 AM

The Aussies cheated in last night`s game they had him on the wing. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 08:08 AM

Yes he did he is mentioned in the Bible which is the word of God.
However if you don't think he exited then that's your bealif and you are entiled to that.

He is after all God's right hand man.

Tom Frae Saltcoats

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 09:00 AM

Beadie:

Rapaire's point, I think, is that he doesn't know for sure that thou cogitest.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 09:39 AM

No, my point is that except for Seamus Kennedy I've never seen another 'catter in the flesh. The rest of you I have to take on faith, pictures can be faked.

Subject: RE: Jesus - Did he exist?
From: GUEST,mojoman
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 09:53 AM

I've been following up on a few things mentioned in this tread. First, the similarity between Jesus's biography and that of many earlier godmen is quite remarkable and it would surely be really stretching things to suggest that such similarities were simply a coincidence. Secondly, dating a Gospel by saying it must have been written before the fall of Masada because there is no reference to that event in the bible makes no sense. Why mention Masada? For example, if somebody today wrote a biog. of J.F.K would anyone ask why it didn't include references to events that happened after his death - apart from the various conspiracy theories.