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President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK

GUEST 14 Nov 03 - 05:04 PM
wilbyhillbilly 14 Nov 03 - 05:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Nov 03 - 05:37 PM
wilbyhillbilly 14 Nov 03 - 06:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Nov 03 - 06:40 PM
Gareth 14 Nov 03 - 07:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Nov 03 - 07:13 PM
Bobert 14 Nov 03 - 07:26 PM
akenaton 14 Nov 03 - 07:28 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Nov 03 - 07:34 PM
Bobert 14 Nov 03 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,Richard H 14 Nov 03 - 10:24 PM
Guy Wolff 14 Nov 03 - 10:39 PM
Liz the Squeak 14 Nov 03 - 11:56 PM
Tam the Bam (Nutter) 15 Nov 03 - 05:21 AM
smallpiper 15 Nov 03 - 06:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Nov 03 - 07:12 AM
Tam the Bam (Nutter) 15 Nov 03 - 08:04 AM
kendall 15 Nov 03 - 08:06 AM
Peter T. 15 Nov 03 - 09:05 AM
AliUK 15 Nov 03 - 05:18 PM
Hrothgar 16 Nov 03 - 06:32 AM
Teribus 16 Nov 03 - 08:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 03 - 09:10 AM
Teribus 16 Nov 03 - 10:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 03 - 10:57 AM
Teribus 16 Nov 03 - 11:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 03 - 12:33 PM
Liz the Squeak 17 Nov 03 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Guest Teribus 17 Nov 03 - 07:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 03 - 09:00 AM
GUEST 17 Nov 03 - 11:38 AM
TIA 17 Nov 03 - 12:00 PM
GUEST 17 Nov 03 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,pdc 17 Nov 03 - 02:44 PM
Liz the Squeak 17 Nov 03 - 07:50 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 18 Nov 03 - 12:52 PM
Nemesis 18 Nov 03 - 06:19 PM
Gareth 18 Nov 03 - 07:19 PM
Liz the Squeak 19 Nov 03 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,noddy 19 Nov 03 - 04:33 AM
Gareth 19 Nov 03 - 04:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Nov 03 - 09:01 AM
Liz the Squeak 19 Nov 03 - 10:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Nov 03 - 01:06 PM
Wolfgang 19 Nov 03 - 01:55 PM
Hollowfox 19 Nov 03 - 02:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Nov 03 - 03:58 PM
Amos 19 Nov 03 - 06:15 PM
Liz the Squeak 19 Nov 03 - 06:48 PM
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Subject: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 05:04 PM

Any thoughts?


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: wilbyhillbilly
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 05:15 PM

My thought is "What is this doing in the music threads""??
Is there a musical connection? If so, WHAT!
I'm sure someone will come up with something suitable.

Sugarbush maybe!

Wilby


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 05:37 PM

Why are you coming?
Why are you coming?
Why are you coming?
Oh why, why, why?
Why are you coming?
Why are you coming?
Why are you coming?
Why are you coming?
Why are you coming?
Oh why, why, why?

When are you going...


And so on, until he goes (to the tune of Oh Come All you Faithful, of course.)

Mind we all know why he's coming, it's all part of the pre-election campaign, to get pictures of him with the Queen for the adverts. Also of cheering crowds in the streets of London no doubt, or at least that would have been the idea - but I somehow don't think there'll be too many of them.

But the real puzzle is, what the hell is anyone in this country getting out of it? It's not as if anyone would want him to win the next election. I mean, even for most of our Tories, the Democrats are far more similar in their politics than Bush's brand of Republican. And photo-opportunities with Bush are the last thing Blair wants. In fact they are the last thing the poor old Queen wants either.

I was talking to somebody today and they were suggesting the only reason for all this must be that Bush has some kind of threat he is holding over Blair - something that he wouldn't want revealed...


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: wilbyhillbilly
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 06:14 PM

SO, all we need now is a No.10 BUTLER or Aide to spill the beans.

They didn't did they, not them as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 06:40 PM

Duplicate thread here - this one and "UK Anti Bush Protests" - so I'll post my reply to akenaton here.

Interesting to hear Will Self on BBCTV,harangue anti Bush protesters. He reckons they are wasting their time,and should be trying to de-select Blairite parliamentary candidates.I think I agree with him ...

The purpose of demonstrating is primarily to show Americans that, whatever they may have been told, there is very little popular support for Bush in this country.

Mind you might even help Bush among those Americans who don't much like the UK. However the impression I have got is that it's seen as quite important to assert that America does have some significant backing abroad, which is very questionable; and even that Bush is held in high esteem, which is certainly not true.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 07:06 PM

I must admit I was tempted to go and protest, for there is plenty any sensible person could could object to in Unelectd President Bush - Such as Kyoto, Trade Wars, Election Rigging, Etc.

But I sat and thought and the answer was no.

The reason - my presence might have been taken as opposition to Iraq and Afghanistan, and this would not be moral or fair.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 07:13 PM

You could go with a poster saying "Saddam Out 2003 - Bush Out 2004" or something like that. Just the kind of thing that might get a photo took of it.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 07:26 PM

Any ideas?

Yeah. Keep him...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 07:28 PM

Mcgrath ...I take your point regarding American motives for the visit.But I agree with Self's point that its all another left cop out ,Blame America and let our own criminals off the hook. When Blair took the decision to throw in his lot with America,British public opinion was very much against the war...Ake


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 07:34 PM

Why is the sytematic use of force against the civilian populations of Afghanistan and Iraq not treated as an international war crime?

Who will arrest him, and which tribunal will try him?

Or will those who defend their homelands from his colonisation succeed in legitimate use of force to induce regime change?


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 08:20 PM

Why, Richard, do you think the US bowed out of the World Court?

Hmmmmmmmm?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: GUEST,Richard H
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 10:24 PM

Just read where Bush will be surrounded by a "bubble" of 700 American agents wherever he goes.

When he's taking a shower with those guys all watching, could that be considered a "bubble" bath?


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 10:39 PM

THanks you guys At least we get a vaction from him over here. I wish "sorry" did it . We have so much to wake up to over here. Well><><><   just change the chanel and eveything will be just fine.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 11:56 PM

Apparently the trip was planned 18 months ago, before the war was contemplated. No-one now has the balls to tell him not to come. It's like inviting the smelly great aunt to a family do... no-body likes or wants her, but neither can anyone tell her.

However, his triumphant ride with the Queen down the Mall has been cancelled - they weren't too sure of getting the cheering crowds and if they did, weren't sure that they would be cheering with the right words.

The CIA wants Central London cleared of people, just in case!

LTS


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 05:21 AM

I quite like George Bush, aye when he's back in bloody America. I know what he should do is take a wee tour of Iraq without his body gaurds.

Tom Frae Saltcoats


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: smallpiper
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 06:01 AM

I think its a great idea - clear central london then there will be no chance of any photos of chearing (heckling) crowds. And wouldn't that say a lot to the power brokers if no one, no one at all turned out to see him!

I just love what some of the families are saying about bush - you know the families of those british soldiers killed in his war - now wouldn't it be great if a family agreed to pray with him especially if they were muslims!

Don't get me wrong sadam had to go (IMO) but not for the reasons Bush/Blair gave.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 07:12 AM

The war with Iraq wasn't contemplated 18 months ago?   So what was Bush talking about when in January last year he listed Iraq in his "axis of evil" speech ?


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 08:04 AM

I agree Saddam was a evil person, and as you say he had to go.

Tom frae Saltcoats


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: kendall
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 08:06 AM

...the Americans who dont like the British? Who would that be? I dont know any except the IRA supporters, and I don't know any of them first hand. We can hate what the British government does without hating the people, just as they can hate what our government does without hating us personally.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 09:05 AM

Protesting is bearing witness against injustice. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. It doesn't matter. What matters is that someone says that you are not getting a free ride on this, that no one cares. In Canada, mass protests kept us out of the war. The protest was not in favour of Saddam or against Iraq. It was against one nation (or two, including Britain) deciding to go to war just because it felt like it. Nothing that has happened subsequently has changed that. If I were in Britain I would be out on the streets (probably because hotel prices are so high (joke)).

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: AliUK
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 05:18 PM

He´s going t the UK because he needs to give instructions to his subjects The Royals and Boney Tony.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Hrothgar
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:32 AM

Who says it won't be a good photo opportunity for the Queen? Afterwards she can go around saying "This is what you get if you form a republic!"


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:17 AM

Richard Bridge - The questions posed in your post of 14 Nov 03 - 07:34 PM, seem to pre-suppose that only one person is guilty of the charges you level. Do you sincerely believe that - numerous mass grave sites in Iraq would seem to suggest otherwise.

As to "colonisation" - hardly.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 09:10 AM

"...seem to pre-suppose that only one person is guilty of the charges you level."

How on Earth do you arrive at that? How can suggesting that A is guilty of something in any way imply that B is not guilty of something else?

"How can you say that the grass is green when you know perfectly well that the sky is blue!"


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 10:28 AM

Kevin read Richard's post - or are you just being deliberately obtuse.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 10:57 AM

Just read it - I still can't see where Richard says anything at all that could be summarised as his assuming that "only one person is guilty of the charges" of being a war criminal.

A war crime tribunal focussing on the crimes of Saddam's regime would be an excellent idea, and those brought before it should include those Western politicians who appear to have colluded in them over the years, and who encouraged him and assisted him in his aggression against Iran, for example.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 11:09 AM

The use of "HIM" & "HIS" would appear to indicate that only one person is assumed guilty of the charges.

Only Western politicians Kevin?? How about North Korean; Chinese and Russian?? They could then stand in the dock alongside those from The USA, UK, France and Germany. Don't think that that will happen - do you.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 12:33 PM

There you go again. Did I say "only Western politicians"? Did I say it was likely to happen?


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 05:04 AM

Oh isn't that nice, Bush is bringing hundreds of his friends from the CIA with him... all armed.

Wonder which poor country is paying for this visit of Bush and his 300 strong entourage through their taxes, bearing in mind it is a State visit.....?

(And interesting that the ads attached here are for 'Investment Management' and 'Speed Dating in London'...... is he trying to become a citizen?)

LTS


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: GUEST,Guest Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 07:11 AM

In which case Kevin it would have more correct of you to say:

"A war crime tribunal focussing on the crimes of Saddam's regime would be an excellent idea, and those brought before it should include the politicians from all the other countries who appear to have colluded in them over the years, and who encouraged him and assisted him in his aggression against Iran, for example."

You didn't, you specifically mentioned "Western politicians", thereby inferring exclusion of others.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 09:00 AM

I think you mean "imply" rather than "infer". You might indeed infer that I am implying that. But in this case it would be a false inference, because I wasn't.

"You ought to go to Sidmoutrh Folk Festival" If you infer from that statement that I am implying that noone else should go to Sidmouth Folk Festival you would be mistaken.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:38 AM

Kevin,

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: in·fer
Pronunciation: in-'f&r
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): in·ferred; in·fer·ring
1 : to arrive at as a conclusion
2 : 1GUESS 1, SURMISE
3 : IMPLY 2

If you are going to write something then why not just clearly state what you do mean. Instead of your usual style which is biased and conveniently selective.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: TIA
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 12:00 PM

From www.yourdictionary.com

"Usage Note: Infer is sometimes confused with imply, but the distinction is a useful one. When we say that a speaker or sentence implies something, we mean that it is conveyed or suggested without being stated outright: When the mayor said that she would not rule out a business tax increase, she implied (not inferred) that some taxes might be raised. Inference, on the other hand, is the activity performed by a reader or interpreter in drawing conclusions that are not explicit in what is said: When the mayor said that she would not rule out a tax increase, we inferred that she had been consulting with some new financial advisers, since her old advisers were in favor of tax reductions. "

This distinction is also specifically stated on page 49 of Strunk and White - who state that they are "NOT interchangeable".

You could argue with me, or with McG of H, but nobody, and I mean nobody, can argue with Strunk and White.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 02:18 PM

Thanks TIA,

I stand corrected, but I still hope Kevin gets the drift.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 02:44 PM

Apparently Bush has cancelled his speech in Parliament, because of open questions on the floor, something he doesn't experience at home. Too bad -- it would have been the closest he ever came to actual combat.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 07:50 PM

And then of course, there are the 14,000 extra police officers being drafted into London by Scotland Yard, just to make sure JeeDub don't see nuthin' that would upset the poor dear.

JeeDub wanted all his little friends from the CIA to be armed with automatic weapons and machine guns, and be exempt from any silly local laws if they felt the need to let fly with one of those little beauties. Given the American record for so called "friendly fire", I'd feel more than safe being part of an anti war demonstration - after all, they'd be far more likely to pepper JeeDub himself with bullets!

LTS


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 12:52 PM

Maybe he's cancelled his speech in the so-called mother of parliaments because now it's just the electoral college for the governor of the undeclared 51st State. Which goes to show that it's unfair to accuse Blair of having a presidential style of government.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Nemesis
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:19 PM

Bush Rodeo Ride

Critical Mass London will holding a special anti-Bush bike ride through London on Thursday 20 November. The rodeo themed ride will be leaving Waterloo at 6pm and should be meeting up with a big pedal-powered sound system at some point where open mic rantings and line dancing 'Hank Williams' style will be positively encouraged. Bring your lasso, stetson etc.

Mark Thomas will be joining this ride.

Find out more about Critical Mass London at http://cmlondon.enrager.net/

Get Involved in any anti-Bush actions that you can - check out
http://www.resistbush.org/events.html for listings.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 07:19 PM

Errr ! - Who the hell is "Mark Thomas" ?

Gareth


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 03:50 AM

Mark Thomas is an investigative reporter/comedian and did a brilliant series on Channel 4 in the UK, investigating, and basically ripping to shreds various Government and other official bodies.

One example is CCTV and local councils. He hired a team of Morris dancers, went to Newham in east London (Council of the year 2000, then council with the most CCTV on the streets) and they danced in full kit, in direct view of a camera. The Data Protection act (or some other similar act, I forget) states that you can go to the CCTV operator and request to see your image. He and the team went to Newham Council, gave them the number of the camera (they are all numbered so you can identify them), requested to view the tapes and the council refused, stating that "they could not recognise anyone of their description on any of their tapes".

Mark Thomas then tried to pursue them under the aforementioned act but they wriggled out of it, which they've had a lot of practice at... Newham council didn't become council of the year by being legal, correct or humane.

LTS


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 04:33 AM

Great is it not?

Norway sends the UK a Big Tree for Christmas and the best the USA can do is send a little bush


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 04:37 AM

Sounds like LB Newhan recognised someone taking the p***, and reacted appropriatley.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:01 AM

Reacting accordingly might have been to say "sod off", but surely not tell ridiculous lies about "not recognising anyone of their description".

Except what on earth would have been the council's problem in failing to comply with a perfectly reasonable request and in this way helping make members of the public informed of their legal rights?


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 10:23 AM

LB Newham may indeed have recognised someone taking the piss, but in refusing to let them see the images on the CCTV, which was proffered in the correct manner, they shot themselves in the foot. They opened themselves right up to an inquiry as to the accessibility of their CCTV images, one that proved that for more than half the requests tendered, no information was forthcoming.

The difference between Norway's tree and the USA's bush is this - everybody likes to see the tree, hardly anyone wants to see that particular bush. Besides, the tree is to say thank you for helping them dispose of an evil conqueror. Bush's visit now smacks of a conqueror inspecting his new lands....

LTS


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 01:06 PM

Maybe, if they hang lots of presents from the bush and Christmas lights and a pretty fairy stuck on the top, we might feel more welcoming.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 01:55 PM

This article tells a quite different story about the reasons given by the Newham Council for not giving the footage to a TV producer.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Hollowfox
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 02:01 PM

I'm just amazed that it takes more than 1,000 police to protect a couple hundred pounds of pond scum.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 03:58 PM

1,000?   More like 14,000! It's a field day for crime in the rest of London, stripped of coppers. And the people of London are having to pay for it both ways.


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 06:15 PM

From Politech:

It's here:
http://www.interwebnet.org/

Also see:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1086397,00.html?=rss

'Shoot-to-kill' demand by US

Martin Bright, home affairs editor
Sunday November 16, 2003
The Observer

Home Secretary David Blunkett has refused to grant diplomatic immunity to
armed American special agents and snipers travelling to Britain as part of
President Bush's entourage this week.

In the case of the accidental shooting of a protester, the Americans in
Bush's protection squad will face justice in a British court as would any
other visitor, the Home Office has confirmed.

The issue of immunity is one of a series of extraordinary US demands turned
down by Ministers and Downing Street during preparations for the Bush visit.

These included the closure of the Tube network, the use of US air force
planes and helicopters and the shipping in of battlefield weaponry to use
against rioters.

...


A


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Subject: RE: President (yeah right) Bush coming to UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 06:48 PM

"it has not been possible for us to extrapolate your images from those of unknown third parties

"they could not recognise anyone of their description on any of their tapes".

Means about the same thing doesn't it?

And the 14,000 police are spread over 3 days, it's about 4,300 per day.

LTS

I'll get off me pedant stool now.


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