They stole my song!

Subject: They stole my song!
From: GUEST,Hera
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 09:49 PM

I know - I'm being a selfish child, and I need to grow up....but
You find a song, research it, become very intimate with it, sing it, bond with it, own it....and then some-one from your folk club thinks "that's a good song, I'll have it for my band"....and then you feel sad, because it has an edge of infidelity...and besides they might do it better...

Oh dear, am I alone?

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: kendall
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 10:25 PM

What they did is cheeky even though it is not really your song.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: kendall
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 10:27 PM

Hell, I had a guy RECORD one of my songs that I wrote! His royalty payments were a joke.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 10:53 PM

" You find a song, research it, become very intimate with it, sing it, bond with it, own it....and then some-one from your folk club thinks "that's a good song, I'll have it for my band""

That's the folk process...

"they might do it better..."
And that's what bothers you most right?

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Little Robyn
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 10:54 PM

I spent weeks learning a rather long song, with accordion accompaniment, then the night I was ready to sing it, someone asked if they could borrow my accordion and they sang the very same song - first! Which left me without anything new to sing! I don't think I ever did sing that one!
Very annoying.
Robyn

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 11:45 PM

In our group(s) there are various songs that 'belong' to various people and we others don't sing them in their presence, and usually not even when they're not there. Maybe because listeners tend to bond with how that song has been presented by that one person and any deviation is looked at rather askance by other listeners.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 12:08 AM

And, I don't have this problem at all. Of course 'I' only do tunes....and if the tune has already been done, I have dozens more to choose from.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 01:18 AM

I'm flattered when people around here play one of my originals...even if they don't play it very well (which is sometimes the case). All I ask is that they tell the audience it's my song.

I think it's great for people to learn songs from other people and play them. It's part of what brings us together in our mutual creativity.

As for royalties...ha! None of us is ever going to make enough of those to buy a meal at Rombos Restaurant in downtown Orillia. You've got to be 16 to 26 years old and look like Shania Twain or Britney Spears before that sort of thing is likely to happen nowadays, given the way the music business operates.

What would I call "stealing a song"? Actually stealing the words and music from someone else and registering them under copyright as your song. Lying, in other words.

If you feel that trad song is yours, you just gotta play it so well that you make it yours.

- LH

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 01:27 AM

I write almost everything that I sing on stage. I receive royalty payments for songs that have been recorded by others, but I love it when someone likes one of my songs enough to learn it. I was at a party last Memorial Day and a young piper played one of my songs as a pipe tune. Turns out she had learned it from a Seamus Kennedy CD and loved it. She was thrilled to find out I had written it. Now she wants to learn more of my melodies on her highland pipes. Absolute heaven to a song writer.

Mike

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: denise:^)
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:59 AM

I know what you mean--you find it, 'bond' with it, figure out all the chords, make it 'your own--' and then some twit says, "Hey, give me a copy of that song! I really like that!"

I played a gig, once, at a city festival, where they had several folk musicians in a row, all day long--and another woman from our folk group sang a whole set of songs I usually do (which she'd learned from hearing me sing them...). I was backstage, frantically changing my set..."Scratch that one...um...oops! Scratch that one..." I ended up doing nearly a whole set of tunes on the hammered dulcimer, instead of singing much at all--she'd done most of my set before I got to the stage!

denise:^)

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:14 AM

It happens, and it is a compliment, backhanded, and one you would rather be without, but a compliment.

How about this, though.
I had a 'friend' who, on hearing that I had 'discovered' a no-longer-performing duo, Flanders and Swann, said "I will get you their LP's at trade price." When I received them four weeks later, he had learned some of the best numbers, down to plagerising the intro's and performing them in our scene.
The records weren't even very cheap! He even did one of the #s on the night he handed them over, and he smiled at me.

In the situation where someone 'steals' your act, I had a couple of very powerful songs that I NEVER performed. They were unaccompanied, so didn't need regular accompaniment practise, but I considered them strong and loud enough to blow your socks off. Unaccompanied singers and monologuists always have something in reserve, and you can bet your regular listeners will know what is going on.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:23 AM

MOST of the regular singers in UK clubs tend to be faily polite about
other peoples material, though I have on occasion put another singers nose out of joint by beating him to it to learn a song we both heard for the first time at the same time. Sorry about that Bob. I do find
I have to bite my tongue though when one of the locals does a song and
uses virtually 'OUR' arrangement (the group is now defunct) without any comment.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 09:13 AM

denise - your experience sounds like the final scene in "A Mighty Wind". I will bet there are few who have never had this experience.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 10:03 AM

In the US, intellectual property (which includes songs) that you produced is protected by copyright EVEN if you haven't registered it. You don't even have to put the little "circle c" brand on it (but it helps if you do). You DO have to be able to prove that you created it, however. Not filing with the office of copyright doesn't give you the same legal strengths that file does, but you still have rights if you want to assert them.

I think that this also applies to your arrangement of the song and music, if that arrangement is "unique."

Of course, suing someone over such infringement can be costly and would most likely flat-out ruin a song circle.

At least my wife the attorney tells me this information is correct....

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 10:11 AM

I don't quite understand what this thread is about.

If it's about someone else doing a song that you wrote, well, the laws are fairly clear. If they record it, and release it to the public, they have to pay you a mechanical royalty. But the amount of royalty is fixed by law, and it's on the order of eight cents per copy of the song that is released. On a million-selling album, that's a nice piece of change. On an album that one prints a thousand copies of, to sell at his own gigs, it's pretty much of a joke, as Kendall says.

As far as live performance, the law provides that composer's royalties are due from the venue, not the performer. Unfortunately, the royalties are paid out by ASCAP and BMI on the basis of radio play, even though they may be collected on the basis of live performance. So the little guy gets shafted every time. Are you surprised? So you have no valid legal claim against a performer who does a song that you composed, in live performance.

As a matter of civility, and of avoiding embarrassment to myself, I would never do a song, the identity of whose composer I knew, in the presence of the composer, unless he/she asked me to - which seems unlikely.

But it appears that we're talking, here, about someone claiming some kind of right to a song that is trad, or composed by a third party, just because they do it a lot. I can't see that. Can you say "Public Domain?" Either you own the copyright - either because you're the composer, or you bought it from the composer - or you don't. If you don't, anyone else has as much right to sing it as you do.

Or am I - again - missing something?

Peter.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 01:54 PM

It's an interesting situation...I hang out with a crowd that includes some very good singers/musicians, a number of whom are real 'song vacuums'! They have good taste, good memories, and an insatiable appetite for good songs. (The list includes my own wife, who cannot stand to know only 'part' of a song...including the ones I sing!)And if someone learns a good song, they want to be able to sing it when it seems to fit the mood...

It gets to be quite a study in social dynamics when we are in a large group where 7-8 people know 'almost' the same song(s), all trying to remember who sort of has the current 'rights' to a song. *grin*
Usually, no one gets particularly offended if someone does a song they had worked hard on (but, OH!, the exceptions!)...but those of us who do not have huge repertories or are not in the top eschelon of singers have an interesting dilemma trying to pick a song, knowing there may be 6 people in the room who do it better.

Let's face it...some songs are 'ok', some are 'good', some are blockbusters, and some are true classics! And I 'think' I tend to pick songs to learn that are not likely to be covered by the better singers in my group. I know for a fact that there are a few songs I do that others locally do also, but they make every effort to NOT do them when I'm around, sometimes because I was 'first' to do them, or because they are just kind and thoughtful..*big grin*.

There are 'cycles' of popularity for songs, and often it will happen that "X" will do a song that "Y" used to be known for years ago, and this is not NEARLY the issue that swiping a 'newish' song is. Once, 20+ years ago, lots of folks wanted to be the one known in our group for doing Utah Phillips "Goodnight, Loving Trail"...now it is fair game. But that "Yangtze River" shanty mentioned in another thread is NEW, and jockeying doth go on for versions and associations! (polite jockeying, of course! ;>) ...

ah, ain't our egos interesting?

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Forsh
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:14 PM

Heck, anyone wants to steal mine and play them, go ahead! here are four here:Newer site And there are some here:Older Site The older one has one wot I stole from Vin Garbutt, (Mind you, he said it was a throw away song, so I threw away the lyrics and kept the tune!) Go on... Pinch a Forsh original & make it your own, If you are in USA or Canada, I doubt I will ever get there, and I probably wont get to Oz for a good few years yet, so..hey! how will I know?! I have a few more that I aint put out yet, so PM me if ya want!
Share in the process :{D>
Peace

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Hera
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:21 PM

Some funny stories there folks - I guess I posted because I'm laughing at myself as much as anything.

It occurred to me that my dynamic of bonding with a song (and thereby putting me own signature on it) and then feeling an awkward possessiveness of it could be part of the "shared unconsciousness" - I'm not particularly unique.

My being proprietorial is purely an emotional experience, because my intellect (which wins out) informs me that trad songs belong to everyone!...and if you love something set it free.....

It seems to me that folkies have all sorts of unspoken rules; it can be quite amusing/interesting when others are oblivious of them and breach a code - don't need to look past session behaviours for that..
Hera

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Forsh
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:35 PM

Hera; I DO know what you mean, it has only happened to me the once, and by a 'friend', too. It's a bummer trick. :{D>

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:54 PM

Rules? It's music... there are NO rules!

Me and the band showed up at a fest one day a couple of summers ago, with no idea what we were gonna play... until we overheard the band who'd go one after us, deciding on their set-list... We figured if those songs in that order was good enough for the followiung act, they aughta be good enough for th eopening act as well! Went out there and played every song they were going to, in the oder they were going to....

When they whined and sucked, our response was "Tough... If that's all the material you have, maybe next time, you better make sure you go on first..."


"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.
            
There's also a negative side."--Hunter S. Thompson

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:03 PM

Here's a similar thread from the past -- Tom

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:46 PM

you went out of your way to screw up their set, Clinton? That's not even funny if it were a prank among friends. It goes WAY beyond simple competition. Big Mick was right...

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:55 PM

The lesson Bill is, "Life sucks, get a fecking helmet"

If ya can't play with the big boys, stay in your own yard....

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:59 PM

CH I hope for your sake you never display such poor manners at MY expense.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:01 PM

There is such a thing as good manners.

Some of the people posting here seem to have no idea.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:25 PM

Others are trolls in training!

Seriously, I once had a guy who fancied himself a humorist, who went on just before me and used some of my own material! When I went on, I made a total fool of him. It wasn't hard, he gave me a head start.
This was after the time this same guy sat on stage next to me and told a story right off my Seagulls& Summerpeople album! He told it exactly the way I tell it too!
I told him that it was traditional to borrow from each other, but, I wait until the source is dead
Tact is only noticed when it's missing..

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:28 PM

"When I went on, I made a total fool of him. It wasn't hard, he gave me a head start."

LOL! Nice one!

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Mudlark
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:32 PM

Ah, Clinton...what a ...bracing...philosophy you bring to the boards!

I share your dismay, Hera, when some song I think of as "mine" gets done by somebody else. It may not be very grown up but it sure is understandable. Nothing to do but learn to do it so well it blows everybody else out of the water, or do it totally differently.

I made my living for many years as a studio potter, and coming up with new ideas was always a part of the job. Really good new ideas soon get copied by other potters and for a small timer like myself there was never enough money in it to go to the trouble of copyrighting, etc. Sometimes "my" idea would outsell the copies because it was better. Sometimes, if a bunch of people started copying it I'd back out of the fray as the market became saturated. It was always sort of galling, but I learned to use it as both a goad for further creativity, and as a lesson in humiility. I try to do the same with music...but sometimes it's still hard. I still remember my heart sinking, years ago, when Judy Collins (an idol at the time) recorded Buddy Can you Spare a Dime...a song I loved and had all to myself for years.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:42 PM

As an aside, if it's royalties you're looking for, you have to get on a soundtrack, either for a movie, but especially for TV or commercials. There you get paid by the second, every time it's aired.

That's what the SOCAN rep told me anyway.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:49 PM

Maybe it's that I've never thought of a song as mine... even the stuff I've written...

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:09 PM

Back in the early Sixties I sang quite a bit in a coffeehouse where there were often two, three, or four of us occupying the small stage any one time. We'd sit there in front of the audience and swap songs and wisecrack among ourselves and with the audience. It was almost like singing at a party (and getting paid for it), and the audiences loved it. Very informal, and one of the more enjoyable long-term gigs.

But there was one guy there who wasn't a half-bad musician, but he was lazy about digging up songs on his own. He liked my repertoire, and if he heard me sing a song more than two or three times, especially if it was a song I got a particularly good audience response with, he was hell-bent on learning it. He was sneaky about the whole thing, and got a couple of friends to sit in the audience and copy down the words for him as I sang. Actually, had he asked me straight out, I would have written them down for him.   Many of them I had learned simply by asking other singers if they would write out the words for me, and they had generously done so. They were mostly traditional songs, and I held by the principle that anyone who wanted to sing them should have free access to them. After all, they were not "my" songs. Still, it annoyed me that he seemed to regard me as his sole source of new songs, and he would knock himself out to try to sing them before I did (not unlike Clinton and his friends, apparently). No problem, however. I kept my set lists in my head, which made for easy revision, and I could sing about ten songs for every one that he knew.

But he managed to pull the rug out from under himself. Not only did he want to sing the songs I sang, he wanted to use my guitar accompaniments as well. But I'd studied quite a bit of classic guitar and he hadn't. Some of my accompaniments were pretty simple, but some were not. He'd sit there and watch me and try to figure out what I was doing. A week or so later he would spring the song, trying to do what I did on the guitar in a sort of abbreviated version, It would come off sounding kind of pale, especially if someone had heard me do it first, which many people in the audience had. Worst of all (for him), he insisted on doing the songs in the same keys that I did. But I'm a bass. His voice was higher than mine, so he'd growl along at the bottom of his vocal range, which didn't sound that great. Apparently it never occurred to him to capo up, but then it may be that since I didn't always use the standard chord the fingerings he was familiar with, he couldn't actually figure out what key I was in just by watching me. When he sang the songs that he'd learned and worked out on his own, he was pretty good, but when he did the ones he "gleeped" off of me, the overall results were often a bit less than thrilling.

The regulars in the audience tumbled quickly to what was going on, and some of them made a point of requesting those songs early in the evening and specifically from me. And they would ask him for songs that they knew he did, but that I didn't.

Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but it sometimes it doesn't do much for the imitator.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:38 PM

The real pisser is that individual who deliberately does a song that is "one of yours", knowing full well, that you are there and intend to do it yourself because you were requested to do so earlier in the day and they wait until you are in the toilet before they jump in and do it..... and they didn't credit it even though it was one I'd written.

Still fuming at that one 4 years later.....

LTS

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Joybell
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:47 PM

Oh I do understand. What's more it's just as bad if they do it less well than you, or use a special song in a less appropriate way. I have been singing some songs for over 50 years - from the time when it was harder to find them. You couldn't just type a few words into a search engine, or put on a cheap CD, and BINGO. I always seek out all the information about the songs I sing, down to the situations in which they were born if possible. I don't sing songs that I can't relate to. I learned "Hard Times Come Again no More", among other Stephen Foster songs, from my father. It was just after the depression and he knew about hard times. Now I hear it sung at folk festivals as a jolly little sing-a-long with flashy instrumental breaks and it makes me so sad. We know that we can't own songs but it's painful all the same. Our ancestors had the problem solved. Sing-a-rounds were very carefully controlled so that singers had "their songs" that no one else sang. Field recordings often have remarks like, "That was Auntie Elsie's song, I never learned that one!"

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:51 PM

Joybell and others -- do check out the thread I posted earlier in this one. There are a lot of well thought out ideas -- Tom

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: harvey andrews
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:54 PM

Happened to me Liz. At a concert I was headlining the support artist who'd actually played with me on the LP and who'm I'd invited to open, sang the title track I'd written which was my biggest song at the time and my big finish.
I actually kicked his arse in the dressing room.
We're still friends but I've never understood why he did it!

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:05 PM

I have to agree with Midchuck, and those who've expressed a similar viewpoint. If the song is out there, especially if it's traditional and/or public domain, the pleasure of performing it belongs to no one person. I do believe that credit should be given to the author of the song, always, if one has that information, but just because one person has worked on learning it doesn't make it exclusively theirs to perform.

In a song circle situation, common courtesy might suggest that certain songs be left for those who perform them regularly, but I would attribute that to consideration on the part of the others in attendance, rather than an unwritten rule implying performance rights. To deliberately perform a song or set that is commonly known to be a main staple of another's reperatoire, particularly if it is a limited reperatoire, is, IMHO, discourteous and mean-spirited, and goes against the spirit of music. It's not about competition, but about the sharing of the music.

As one who has done some songwriting and performing, I feel that if I have been "given" a song to write and record, and put it out there, then in a sense, it "belongs" to the world, and if it's enjoyed by others who perform it, well and good. But again, the author should always be acknowledged and paid royalties when others choose to record their work.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:07 PM

Well I still talk to the person but in all honesty, I can't say we're friends.......

LTS

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 07:19 PM

Hera,

It might be a glass half empty, half full sort of thing when somebody sings "your" song.

Me, I am a pure amateur. I don't think of myself as a performer but a sharer. If you like something I do well enough to learn it, my job is done.

I do, however, preach to my listeners that it is good manners to state the source of your song if you know or remember it. Always give credit where credit is due.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:02 PM

As to your tale above, I gotta say that was a fair bit of prickery on your part, buck. That surprises me, even for you. ;)

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:06 PM

It's all this big city livin'... and being this close to Detroit...

LOL

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Cluin
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:15 PM

Remember how we used to joke about being folk terrorists? Watch out for a drive-by, then.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:34 PM

We were joking?

,-)

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:47 PM

Sorry I mentioned the royalty thing, I should have known someone would mis understand. I know that royalties in our field are tiny, if they exist at all, but this guy added insult to injury by paying a few dollars when I know that CD is still selling after 7 years with my song on it. Now, it's true that he added a little bit to the song, but it was 90/10 mine and he knows it. The worst part is, he has been a friend for many years.Maybe he just doesn't know what he did. Come to think of it, my name doesn't even appear on the label as the author.
When did they stop teaching manners and integrity?

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 09:00 PM

Kendall, what song? I want to hear more songs you've written. Have you recorded it?

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 04:18 AM

CH--your story about screwing the other band up by swiping their set troubles me.

I truly don't understand what good it did you.

Surely you don't have to make others sound bad in hope of sounding good by contrast? And I can't believe you thought it would improve the 'fest' for the audience or that it would improve your reputation with whoever was in charge of the fest, or with the other musicians. Or is it just crybaby stuff -- "The big kids are mean to me so I'm gonna be mean to the little kids?" I hate to think that.

I really want to know how it helped you. Seems to me that even if life sucks, people don't have to. What part of your philosophy of life am I missing?

clint

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 04:36 AM

Kendall - I think probably quite a proportion of offenders don't know they are doing it. Or maybe they think imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?? It takes a fairly nasty person to do it deliberately, and most people don't have the nerve to be that nasty (except Clinton who seems to be a bit of a git - but a funny git :>) )

I will admit to being in a bit of a race to learn a particular song at the moment, because a friend and I both heard & enjoyed it the other night & I want to get there before him! I know that if he sings it first then it will be a while before I feel I can decently do it - plus he'll play it better & I'll sing it better, so we'd both end up being upset. Ah well.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 05:10 AM

There have been many occasions where I've heard a floorsinger perform a song and seem quite unaware that it was written by the guest of the evening.

Many years ago I went to a new folk club in SE London, it was rather too "pop" for my tastes even at that time. An older couple, who I instantly recognised, came in and were told that there probably wouldn't be time to fit them in for a spot. The evening was hogged by the resident band who were appalling. Two of the numbers which they absolutely murdered were "Freeborn Man" and "Dirty Old Town". The lead "singer" even told the audience that he thought MacColl's songs were fantastic. Half way through I left - as did the couple - Ewan and Peggy.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 05:21 AM

I'm at the moment in the 'horns of a dilema' some friends (sic) have basically lifted an arrangement. On one hand I'm chuffed on the other I wan't to record it first and am a bit miffed. Should I copyright the arrangement ?

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: open mike
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 05:26 AM

IT WASN'T REALLY YOUR SONG AFTER ALL
if you just found it
if you had written/created it that would
be a different matter.

Subject: RE: They stole my song!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 05:31 AM

A certain singer from the west of England, had quite a reputation for singing and recording other people's songs and never crediting them to the author. Although he never actually claimed to have written them, most people assumed that he had - and many still do. The songs include "The Vicar and the Frog" by Stan Crowther and "Early one Evening" and "Hunting the Fishfinger" by Miles Wooten - all three of which are correctly attributed (except for spelling) in the DT.
Of course I'd never dream of naming him . . . . . . .