Permission to record Jute Mill Song

Subject: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 07:41 AM

The Duncan McFarlane Band are in the studio throughout November recording their debut studio CD and are desperately seeking permission to record this song.
Our searches to find the current Publisher/owner of the Jute Mill Song keep running up a blind alley.
We KNOW Mary Brooksbank wrote it and even found a publisher's name associated with it - SpringTyme - but it seems impossible to email them - they blame 'spam' for their blocking of email. We found no phone or land address for them - do they still exist? How do we contact 'em?
We'd like to ensure all 'dues' and credit are properly placed.
Can anyone enlighten us? - Cheers!

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:00 AM

Mary Brooksbank will be well long gone passed away. She was a very old lady in the 60's and 70's. I'm sure if you credit it with her name that will be all right but if you want to be doubly sure e-mail Archie Fisher at Travelling Folk at Radio Scotland. Archie has been singing the song for years.
Jim

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:20 AM

Thankyou Jim - we'll try that - see where we get to - all the best - DMcFband

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:08 AM

If a UK copywrite is for fifty years from writing, no problem as I believe the poem/words of the Jute Mill Song dates from 1934. Not quite sure how old the tune is though.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:20 AM

Not from date of writing; never has been. From first publication or death of writer, whichever is later; and seventy-odd years, now, I think? At all events, you can be assured that the song is in copyright and will remain so for a long while to come, as is proper.

Mary Brooksbank died in 1980. The song has frequently been recorded (and published in a number of song books) and no permission would be required to record it again; just make the appropriate return to MCPS so that the royalty goes to her estate. They should have all the details in view of the song's recording history. Bear in mind that it has also been published, and recorded, as Oh Dear Me.

Perhaps you aren't UK based? SpringThyme Records are quite well known here, and you can get contact details from their website at http://www.springthyme.co.uk/. Owner Pete Shepheard certainly collaborated with Maurice Fleming, who recorded Mary; but whether or not there is a direct copyright interest I wouldn't know.

It may be, however, that their copyright is just in somebody's recorded arrangement of the song. For what it's worth, the BMI website has quite different publishing details: Jute Mill Song. Ignore the entry for Will R Millar, though; that is presumably copyright on an arrangement, or on a different song with the same title. Unless, of course, he is the mystery man who also wrote Barbara Allen, The Banks of Newfoundland, and so on...

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:38 AM

Springthyme Records might, I imagine, share the same address and phone number as the music publishing arm?

From the website Malcolm Douglas quoted:

Springthyme Records, Balmalcolm House, Balmalcolm, Cupar, Fife KY15 7TJ Scotland.

TEL: [phone]

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Little Robyn
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 01:43 PM

It's also known as Ten and nine (10/9d in old money).
On the 'Definitive Ewan MacColl Collection' CD from Topic, it credits Trad,Brooksbank but no further info. That's from Highpoint Recordings HPO 6006. If she wrote the words, then was the tune trad?
Apparently in New Zealand the copyright lasts for 75 years from date of publication or death of writer.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,from the Studio
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:32 AM

when you send your forms to MCPS they will trace and charge you (if needed) for the recorded work - if its not registered with PRS just hold back your dues (although no one does this in practise)

as it has been recorded several times there can't be a block on it


just give MCPs all the details you have....

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:04 AM

Many thanks for all the pointers/advice/info. We've now plenty of avenues to explore - CHEERS! - The Duncan McFarlane Band

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:17 PM

Just a wee query...Iv been listening to Linda Thompsons CD Fashionably Late,and I think she's used the tune for her lovely"Banks o' the Clyde".   Anyone agree?...Ake

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 06:49 PM

Absolutely, Ake...

I'm trying to remember now, is there some other song tunes that's been borrowed on that album?

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 06:56 PM

The whole thing about "asking permission " to record a song is something that has always intrigued me.

I am aware that it is regarded as good manners to do so, also that there is no way a composer can actually prevent someone recording their song, but how would you react if you asked for "permission" and were denied ?

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 07:33 PM

Umm good question, Murray.

But I suppose if I had asked permission, as opposed to just doing it and paying the going rate for remuneration, then I would probably be seeking approval. If approval was significant enough for me to have sought out the creator/owner, then I'd have to respect the wish that I not record it.

Interesting thought, though...

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 12:58 PM

Who was it that said "It's easer to seek forgiveness than ask permission" ? The "Will R Millar" is more likley Willie Millar AKA Ewan Mcall, who (whomb), I allways understood to have had a hand in writing this tune.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 01:02 PM

then there is also the fact that sometimes you "get lucky" and are allowed to record the song at a reduced rate or for no fee.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 01:37 PM

Ewan MacColl's real name was Jimmie Miller; Will Millar is another person entirely (former leader of the Canadian band The Irish Rovers, it appears). So far as I know, Ewan had no involvement with the song beyond publishing it in The Singing Island in 1960. His accompanying note is ambiguous, and avoids stating outright that Mary Brooksbank wrote the song. It has been suggested elsewhere that the song may be in part based on an earlier one, and that the tune may be adapted from tradition; but I've never seen anything more than vague suggestions. That is academic in any case; as it stands it is Mary Brooksbank's song, whether or not there were influences from elsewhere.

She was poor all her life, and lost money on her book Sidlaw Breezes, incidentally: it is to be hoped that no one begrudged her the modest royalty payments due on recordings of her songs.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 02:04 PM

Hello Hipflask Andy

As I said in my reply to you on another forum, according to notes to Ewan MacColl's recording on Steam Whistle Ballads, Essex Music (rightly or wrongly) seem to think they own copyright to this song.

So to avoid being clobbered, it might be as well to check with them.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 02:06 PM

I regularly receive requests via the MCPS to record my songs on Video but never for purely audio recordings.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,From the Studio
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 05:10 PM

.....am aware that it is regarded as good manners to do so, also that there is no way a composer can actually prevent someone recording their song, but how would you react if you asked for "permission" and were denied ? .....

If you are registered with PRS (as I would advise ALL songwriter to be) you can have "first rights of recording" as the copyright holder.. as such No One can record the song as long as you haven't without being liable... and MCPS will not give permission for the duplicating of CDs that have such tracks - of course in this day and age singist etc are recording their own CDs and duplicating them without registering with MCPS and as such robbing the people who's songs they admire!

Seeking and obtaining permission to record a song doesn't relinquish you from paying for the right to do so (this is why you should obtain the forms from MCPS fill them in and pay your dues - your making money from others work - they deserve a share!)

If the writer hasn't registered their work with PRS or if it is traditional - you will have nothing to pay!! - If you know or can contact the composer a nice touch (if they're not registered with PRS) is to send them a copy of the CD.. as a thank you.

We're all in this business together and to those who rob their fellow musicians / composers by not paying their dues to MCPS et al - may your loft collapse under the weight of unsold CDs!

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 04:38 AM

Mary Brooksbank says on a School of Scottish Studies recording that she heard the Dundee mill lassies saying / singing [can't recall which] the first two lines
'Oh dear me -- get their rest'
and she wrote / added the rest.
My own song Shift and Spin 'borrows' some terms from her song.
It is astonishing to me how often publishers assert song ownership on behalf of singers who know and say better.
But some arrangers are as bad. There's one who claims to PRS to have written Coulter's Candy, a song I've traced back to the obituary of the composer Robert Coultart in the 1880s.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,From the Studio
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 05:37 AM

"But some arrangers are as bad. There's one who claims to PRS to have written Coulter's Candy"

should that read "Claimed" - or is it still registered to the individual or as you say "arrangers" do you mean an arrangement of that song is registered to him??

If it is "stolen" (words or/and tune), may I suggest you forward any evidence you have to PRS and they will take action.... although basic searches are made when you register your "new" song it is impossible to check everything and many songs are not registered.... and it is only when ownership of a song is contested that these "wrong doings" come out.

So as I said earlier - if you write songs etc - join PRS (one off payment) it solves a lot of problems for you and other musicians/singists.

Don't forget there are several copyright parts to a recording...

Words, music, arrangement, recording/mix etc - all of which may hold seperate copyright.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 11:17 AM

I mean what I say. He claims he wrote it. I know about arrangement copyrights etc, I used to run a [very small] record label. It was PRS who told me. They were resisting his claim, and welcomed my documentary evidence that supported their gut feeling.
I support joining PRS if you can get through the entry conditions. It took me some years to get over their high fence, but now the cash is very welcome.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 03:26 AM

From Second Shift Industrial Ballads - sung by Ewan MacColl and accompanied by Peggy Seeger
Topic 10T25 10-inch LP 1958

OH DEAR ME

The text of this tender little song is the work of Mary Brookbank, an old jute mill worker, of Dundee. Mrs. Brookbank, the author of several fine songs, has also collected a considerable number of jute mill songs and ballads. The air of the song is the work of Ewan MacColl.

Cut and pasted from https://wcml.org.uk/maccoll/music/industrial-songs/

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 04:25 AM

Rather dismissive to simply label Brooksbank as an "old jute mill worker" while not also allowing her to be a poet, folklorist and political activist. For me that puts MacColl's claim to the tune in doubt as well.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

Dismissive, or just putting in context? The description of her as "author of several fine songs" and collector of others seems to address the first two of your points. I'm not sure of the relevance of "political activist", although as one himself it is perhaps surprising that McColl did not mention it.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 03:49 PM

Will [ William ] Miller was what Ewans father was called.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM

I tried to post an answer yesterday but it got chewed up somewhere in the system......
Mary Brooksbank was some feisty woman: political activist, yes definitely! Led the women of Dundee jute mills on strike for better pay, joined the Communist party and got imprisoned several times for her activities. She is commemorated by a blue plaque on the Dundee Women's Trail, which is a recommended route for anyone visiting Dundee.
See: Mary Brooksbank
By the way, there's a really nice more recent version of the song recorded by Ewan McLennan

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:09 AM

Michael Marra had Mary Brooksbank as one of his heroes. He makes reference to her in a number of his songs and shows. I never saw his show, The Mill Lavies but I'm told that the spirit generated by Mary was at the centre of that show.
Once when Michael Marra was staying with us. I told him that I had met Mary Brooksbank. His eyes, always penetrating and inquisitive, opened wide and he wanted a full account of my impression of her.
Well, there wasn't much to tell.....
In the summer of 1968, Hamish Henderson was organising a big concert at the George Square Theatre in Edinburgh for all the great names in Scottish traditional song. Jeannie & Lizzie, Willie Scott, Calum Ruach Nicholson. The Stewarts..... I was in heaven at the very prospect of the concert.
Outside the theatre, I met a friend, Isabel Sutherland who was also in the concert and she invited us backstage before the concert started. Inside, Hamish introduced me to Mary. A diminuative woman, she was wearing a heavy overcoat that was too big for her. She also wore an electric blue fake fur hat that looked as though it could double as a tea-cosy.
I told her that I had learned a couple of her songs and was hoping to learn more. "Whit anes?" she wanted to know. "The Jute Mill Song and Dundee Lassies" was my reply. She grunted and said, "Weel, ye've got tae believe in them an' act on them; no jist sing them!" was what I heard.
In the concert all the singers and musicians were on stage in a semi-circle. Mary still had her hat and coat on. Hamish was the compere and when Mary was announced she stood and and took her big coat off. Underneath it was the pinafore, usually Paisley-patterned, that all working class Scots women spent their working days in.
She spproached the microphone and said, "Ach! A've forgottin tae tak' ma pinny awf!"
She then launched into Strathmartin Braes. I was transfixed; I was hearing the next Mary Brooksbank song that I would learn.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:34 PM

Great story, Vic!

And, not by Mary Brooksbank, but worth mentioning in this context, is "The Women o' Dundee" - a song by Sheena Wellington, describing also the lot of the women who worked in the jute mills also, sometimes when there was no work for the men.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 02:23 AM

I've asked this in other places but never got an answer and it's really frustrating - WHAT is the tune for "Women of Dundee"? It's an international earworm that everybody in the English speaking world has heard in the context of another song by primary school age but I cannot put a name to it.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:33 AM

Here it is:

Women of Dundee

I think the tune started out as an army song but ended up as a scout or primary school number. It is really, really annoying that I can't quite recall the original.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

"I think the tune started out as an army song but ended up as a scout or primary school number."
It's based on a Scot's (possibly) Music Hall song sung by Belle Stewart - "I Wonder What's Tae Do Wi' All the Men"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 11:59 AM

Scots music hall may have adopted it, but it's much more widely known. I first met with it at primary school in New Zealand around 1960.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:42 PM

It has similarities in meter and rhythm to "I Wonder What's Tae Dae", but not the same tune, Jim. You could always ask Sheena, Jack. She is on Facebook, and used to post on here, under an alias.
I had thought it was her own original tune.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM

Would like too know (hate referring anybody as tattie (potato's not very polite and the word always conjures up pictures of women who don't comb their hair hair in Liverpool)
I got used to tracing tunes to their origins when Peggy sought assistance on 'The Essential Ewan MacColl' collection - I found that quite often they moved a good way from where they started
The feminist nature of the song made the link for me, I'd love to know for certain
Pleaase let me know if you find out
Whatever its origins, it's a bloody good song and a fine piece of singing
Jim

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 06:16 PM

Ha Jim, my full title, Tattie Bogle, means scarecrow, so yes, the hair would be untidy: when I joined Mudcat it was suggested we should all have pseudonyms. It was a term of endearment used by my Scottish mother to address my sister and myself when we came in from playing: "you look a richt couple o' tattie bogles".

Will let you know if I get any more info on the tune for "Women o' Dundee".

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 07:46 PM

Just been in touch with Sheena, and here's her answer for the tune of "Women O'Dundee":
"The tune is my own, though it may, of course, have the odd phrase which echoes another song. I based it on the rhythm of the factory looms which I heard every day in my childhood and which had a very distinctive sound."

So, I'm afraid it's not Scouts, Army, primary school, or Music Hall, or "Betsy Bell".

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 04:22 AM

Thanks Tattie
Jim

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 05:36 AM

She's simply wrong - she posted that on Footstompin many years ago but I'd hoped she might have recalled where it came from. It's much more than an occasional phrase recalling the older tune.

I wonder if Matt McGinn always knew where his tunes came from? They range from completely original to completely trad with some oddly placed in between.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 07:56 AM

Oh dear, Jack, that is not very charitable! You asked for info, and it has been provided.
I have no reason to doubt Sheena’s word. I have written tunes myself, and having heard many thousands, it is not unlikely that odd “soundalike” phrases may creep in, and Sheena has acknowledged that possibility with her own tune in what she has said there.
As for Matt McGinn, he did detail any known tunes used for his songs, as you’ll know if you have a copy of “Matt McGinn of the Carlton” or “Scottish Songs of Today”.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 11:27 AM

A further communication from Sheena, who draws your attention to this performance of Betsy Belle by the late Sheila Stewart (looks like it was at one of the Scottish Trad Awards nights - several weel-kent faces in the audience!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cA-GFOC2qs   (Blickifier not working at present so just go to YouTube and search for Sheila Stewart – Betsy Belle, or copy and paste the link).

Sheena says she sings it as per the version she learned from her father, which is different. And she points out that the words of the last line of the verses are “Ah wonder whut’s ADAE (wrong) wi’ a’ the men”.
And whatever it was you heard in primary school, Jack, must be sheer coincidence if it sounds anything like “Betsy Belle” or “Women of Dundee”.
Thanks to Sheena for the info, and her request for me to post it.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 02:45 PM

Anent Jack's mention of Matt McGinn. Matt once asked me to write a song with him. He said he usually started with a well known song and then changed it enough so that it became original. An example was Coorie Doon, which he derived from The Highland Fairy Lullaby "I left my baby lying there, lying there, lying there,

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 12:18 PM

Can see/hear the connection, now you mention it, Jim, though it had not ever struck me before. My grandson's favourite lullaby (Coorie Doon) and we used to sing the other one in school in East Anglia over 60 years ago!

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 12:39 PM

Hi Tattie (since you insist) I wasn't really happy to become involved in these fisticuffs, I thought I may have become to obsessed in finding things were they are not there
Having been around when Ewan was working on a new tune, I saw close up how far he would take an original one before he settle on one for his song

Years ago there was an occurrence here when a veteran musician (now long dead) who was renowned for making his own tunes, was accused of plagiarising a Scots air - we knew him well enough to know he would never have done so deliberately
It seems he heard the Scots tune once from a visitor, forgot it, and some time later unconsciously re-created it in his own composition
Jim

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 01:08 PM

Peggy Seeger used to (I think) joke that most folk tunes are descended from 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star'
Jim

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 01:29 PM

"Coorie Doon"
You mean 'Freeborn Man' !!

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:26 PM

Anybody who writes tunes is going to mix up memory and invention sometimes. There are lots of examples in Scottish trad. It doesn't matter unless you get really pushy about claiming composer's royalties, and I can only think of one occasion when that happened ("Caddam Woods" vs "Waverley Steps").

I once wrote the tune for "How should I your true love know". So did whoever wrote "Old Joe Clark". I never managed to get either him or Shakespeare's tunesmith to pay up.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 04:55 PM

Not looking for any fisticuffs with anyone.
A friend sang us a new song he'd written: including his own tune, he thought: same tune as a famous one by John Tams. I told him, in private, of my suspicions that it sounded almost identical: he said he had never heard said JT song. Uncanny, but it happens.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 02:30 AM

It can be done easily enough. One of the very earliest songs I wrote was about courting my wife and I sang it for a decade or so before I noticed myself that it was basically the tune of Bob Dylan's "Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues". No-one else had noticed - or at least no-one ever pointed it out. Another I had sounded remarkably like Leo Sayer's "Love You More Than I Can Say". I canned both but I suppose I didn't need to as I am only a hobbyist. Both completely unintentional though. I normally try to come up with my own melody but I have a New Year song which I created by gradually changing the tune of Wild Rover until it was different enough from the original to be a brand new tune.

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 03:45 AM

"Not looking for any fisticuffs with anyone."
Didn't think you were Tattie - wasn't referring to you
Jim

Subject: RE: Permission to record Jute Mill Song
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:09 AM

John Conolly wanted to write a song about George Butterworth. After several false starts, he had a set of words. He took great care in composing a tune, and then performed it for Bill and Dave.

I see you set it to Some Rival Has Stolen My True Love Away, said Dave. In a very strange coincidence, it is a tune collected by Butterworth himself - as The American King from Mrs Cranstone of Wood Dale, Billingshurst in July 1907.