BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 07:00 AM

Not according to my briefing as VIP Guide for HMS Victory Gareth. Did that for a couple of months, while on my Forward Observers Course, waiting for Guard's Independent Para to run a course out of Abingdon, I was too tall and too heavy to do the course with the Para's (the Guards had bigger chutes). Only VIP I had to escort was Brit Ekland.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 05:54 AM

Slab-sided, Dutch-built butterboxes!!

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 04:11 AM

Allegedly, theDutch used issue rum before a battle when they were at war with England in the 17th century; whence "Dutch courage", and other derogatory expressions.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:51 PM

Teribus - Mostly correct, but I suggest the Rum issue was not done till after the battle.

Now I've swilled the odd bottle of Pussers myself, and "gunfire" (tea and rum) in the early morning before casting off but a pint of 120 proof ? - no way.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 05:58 PM

Let's clear for Action! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 01:06 PM

Cleared for action, screens, partitions, furniture, cots were stowed down below. Decks were wetted down and sanded, galley fires extinguished, netting was rigged to catch falling rigging and to deter boarders and hammocks brought up and placed in special stowage to protect against musketry. The ship's boats were swung out, launched and towed behind the ship. Men under punishment were released and the animals in the manger slaughtered. Finally they issued the rum, battle tot one pint neat.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 10:01 AM

Not really! They'd be stored in the hold below the waterline -- the safest place on the ship. So long as they (and everything else) were secured, they couldn't come to any harm. Everything -- furniture, partitions, you name it -- that could get in the way would be "struck down" when the crew cleared for action. (Did they take out the sash windows from the transom too?)

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 09:00 AM

Amazing how the cello & violin survived all those battles unscathed....

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: The O'Meara
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 12:15 PM

The only consistent complaint about the movie I've heard is that much of the dialog, particularly Crowe's, is so muffled by background noise, likely the attempt at authenticity, as to be incomprehensible. I didn't notice it that much because I'm getting used to not understanding movie dialog. (Maybe it's encroaching geezerhood. Eh? Hey? How's that again? Say what?

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 11:12 AM

That's why more than one should be aboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: kendall
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 08:41 AM

One still must rest and sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:12 PM

There is a wonderful book, the edited diary of Hattie Freeman, about her voyage around the world on her father's bark. They did the voyage with only 7 in the crew. It can be done apparently but I wouldn't want to do it. My father thinks one thing that made it possible was the use of donkey engines for the heavy hauling. I'm not so sure but I cannot argue with the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 11:02 AM

The trick was to make the rig with more, smaller sails. We also rigged her to be furlable from the deck. It also helped that the weather was not excessive. As a result, we were able to plan our moves. When properly timed, the yards come about on their own as the vessel turns.
Also, consider that toward the end, commercial vessels followed this general approach which allowed them to sail with smaller crews.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:17 AM

I'd have to see it. The reason they went to fore and aft rigs is because the square riggers required too many hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 12:59 AM

There is an excellent article on Lord Cochrane in the current Smithsonian Magazine.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Melani
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 04:12 PM

Mouldy--the "poor sod risking frostbite in delicate areas" is one of our volunteers from Hyde Street Pier in his big on-screen moment. They asked for a volunteer to do that bit, and being the quintessential volunteer...He came to us to do his mandatory high school volunteer hours, and like many people who come to Hyde Street, it totally changed his life. He learned pretty advanced rigging skills, and arranged to graduate from high school early to go work on the movie. He was last heard of aboard the Pride of Baltimore.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Gareth
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM

Hwy Steve, does those ropes include the strings on the puppets ?

On a more serious note as this thread seems to have drifted on to Patrick O'Brian and the age of Sail generally, this extract from that invaluble website - Ships of the old Navy Click 'Ere

I apologise in advance for the length, but it is an awkward site to fix on a ULR.

The history of HMS "Speedy" - for "Speedy" substitute HMS "Sophie" Jacj Aubery's first command.

SPEEDY,14. brig (1782 King of Dover. Launched on 29 June. 208 bm. 78 x 26 ft. Armed with fourteen 4-pounders, complement of 90 officers and men) Captured by the French in 1801)
At the outbreak of the French revolutionary wars in February 1793 Speedy was commanded by Charles CUNNINGHAM and he sailed from England with dispatches for Lord HOOD at Gibraltar. Here he remained for a time preparing a hospital and fitting up ships for prisoners. In June 1793 SPEEDY took M. Calonne, an ex-minister of France, from Gibraltar to Naples on a political visit and afterwards maintained communication between Lord HOOD and the neutral port of Genoa, where British ships had been detained. On 5 October SPEEDY accompanied BEDFORD,74, and CAPTAIN,74, to Genoa and assisted in seizing the MODESTE frigate and two armed tartans. SPEEDY and CAPTAIN then sailed for Porta Especia in search of the French frigate IMPERIEUSE,4O. She scuttled herself but was raised and taken into the Royal Navy as UNITE. When CUNNINGHAM was ordered to commission UNITE, a Lieut. Wilson RATHBORNE was appointed out of CAPTAIN to command SPEEDY, but he was superseded a few days later by one of the Admiral`s own lieutenants, George COCKBURN.
Her next captain was George EYRE. SPEEDY was captured by three of the enemy`s frigates off Nice on 9 June 1794. She was recaptured by Capt. Thomas FREMANTLE in INCONSTANT,36, on 27 March 1795.
In the summer of 1795 SPEEDY was with the squadron commanded by Commodore NELSON cooperating with the Austrian and Piedmontese armies. In April 1796 six vessels laden with cannon and ordnance stores for the siege of Padua had sailed from Toulon. On 1 May NELSON drove them to take shelter under a battery and MELEAGER led AGAMEMNON, SPEEDY AND PETERELL in until they brought up in four fathoms of water. The boats went in under fire from four 18-pdrs and musketry fom the shore, and brought them off.
1798 Hugh DOWNMAN. During the time he commanded SPEEDY he captured several privateers. At daylight on 3 February 1798, some 17 leagues west of Vigo, with a prize he had captured the day before, he discovered a brig bearing down on him. When she got to within half a mile she hauled her wind and opened fire. SPEEDY closed and engaged her for two and a half hours when she tacked and made sail away. SPEEDY followed and continued the engagement for another two hours until light winds separated them out of gunshot. In spite of using the sweeps, Capt DOWNMAN had the mortification of seeing the enemy firing a few shots at his prize without being able to reply. The 12 men on board her battened down 26 Spaniards and made their escape in a small boat. When a breeze sprang up Capt. DOWNMAN continued the chase through the following day, engaging when the opportunity occured and making an unsuccessfull attempt to board, but was eventually outsailed. The next morning the prize was sighted and retaken with 10 Frenchman on board. He learnt that the brig had been the PAPILLON, 300 tons, pierced for 18 guns but mounting four 12 and ten 9-pounders. SPEEDY lost five killed, including Lieut. DUTTON and the boatswain, Mr JOHNSON, and four badly wounded. Her masts, spars and rigging were badly damaged so she went into Lisbon for repairs. The British factory at Oporto presented Capt. DOWNMAN with a piece of plate worth 50 for his efforts in protecting their trade.
1799 Jahleel BRENTON, Lisbon. On 3 October as SPEEDY was passing through the Straits of Gibraltar she made sail after several small vessels coming out of Algaciras. These proved to be eight coasters under the protection of a cutter and a schooner. Capt. BRENTON separated two of the coasters but they ran under the guns of a castle. The others were driven ashore in a bay to the eastward of Cape Trafalgar where, being on a lee shore, SPEEDY could not approach closer than four cables so Lieut. PARKER, the master, Mr MARSHALL, and the purser, Mr RICKETES, went in by boat to see if they could be brought off or set on fire. The heavy surf made it impossible to do either so they boarded them, brought off some of the firearms and threw the rest overboard. They left them wrecked and full of water.
On 6 November SPEEDY was lying off Europa Point with her convoy, the transport ship UNITY laden with wine for the fleet and a brig bound for Livorno, when 12 Spanish gunboats mounting 14 x 24-pdr guns between them came out to attack her and UNITY. Capt. BRENTON covered the escape of UNITY by opening fire with grape and musketry as he sailed through the attacking boats. Although they were driven off they caused much damage to SPEEDY's sails and hull preventing her from sailing to Gibraltar and she had to run into Tetuan Bay with water up to the lower deck to plug the holes. Two seamen, Patrick BLAKE and William PRING, were killed and one, Thomas RILEY, wounded. The naval medal was awarded to the survivors in 1847. Capt. BRENTON was promoted to Post Captain and SPEEDY sailed from Livorno to Port Mahon so that he could take over command of GENEREUSE on 19 April from Lord COCHRANE who had brought GENEREUX in after her capture.
180O Lord Thomas COCHRANE, 28 March 180O, Mediterranean. He was accompanied by his brother, midshipman Archibald COCHRANE. At the beginning of his commission he captured the French privateer INTREPIDE while escorting a convoy from Cagliari to Livorno. In June 180O SPEEDY was ordered cruise off the Spanish coast and in the next thirteen months he captured or destroyed a large number of French and Spanish privateers and merchant vessels. When SPEEDY became too well known COCHRANE was forced to adopt disguises.
While she was disguised as a Danish ship SPEEDY was approached by a large Spanish zebec out looking for her in December. COCHRANE stationed a Danish speaking officer at the gang-way and scared away the Spaniards by pretending to have come from a Barbary port where the plague was raging.
On 1 February 1801 he got himself involved in a duel with a French royalist officer in Valetta after being thrown out of a fancy-dress ball wearing the rig of a British seaman. A ball passed through Cochrane`s clothes while the Frenchman was shot in the leg.
COCHRANE took the Spanish zebec frigate, GAMO, mounting 32 guns, near Barcelona on 6 May 1801 by firing treble-shotted broadsides into her before boarding with his whole crew. The Spaniard`s shot passed harmlessly overhead. When COCHRANE first saw her he mistook her for a merchantman and it was only when she opened her disguised ports that her true nature was discovered. SPEEDY's fourteen 4-pounders were matched against twenty-two long 12-pounders, eight 9- pounders and two carronades and her 54 officers, men and boys against 319 men. (COCHRANE's crew had been reduced by men sent in prizes to Port Mahon two days before)
The Spanish losses were 15 killed, including the captain, Don Francisco de Torris, and 41 wounded. The British lost 3 killed and 8 wounded. The naval medal was awarded for this operation. The French crew were taken to Port Mahon as prisoners in the hold of their own vessel with guns loaded with cannister pointing down the hatchways and men with lighted matches standing by.
Lord COCHRANE and his men made very little in the way of prize money when the Government refused to buy her. His official letter was not forwarded for a month and his request for promotion for his 1st lieutenant, Richard Parker, who had been wounded, was rejected on the grounds that only a small number were killed in SPEEDY. COCHRANE found himself out of favour with the Admiralty when he retorted that they were higher than in VICTORY when Lord St. VINCENT had become an earl and his first captain a knight.
On 1 June SPEEDY fell in with KANGAROO, Capt. PULLING, off Barcelona where they spoke a privateer from Minorca who gave information that a Spanish convoy of twelve sail with five armed escorts had passed to windward five days earlier. They sailed in pursuit and on the 8th they closed inshore to attack the tower at Almanara which mounted two brass 4-pounders. After repeated calls for surrender were ignored they were forced to blow it up. Lord COCHRANE and two of his men were singed and received a few bruises but were not seriously hurt. On the morning of 9 June, they sighted the convoy at anchor under the battery of Oropeso. SPEEDY led the way into the bay and both brigs anchored within half a gun shot of the enemy by noon and kept up a brisk exchange of fire with a battery of twelve guns, a xebec of twenty guns and three gun-boats. At two o'clock a 12-gun felucca and two more gun-boats reinforced the enemy but by half past three the xebec and one of the gun-boats sank, followed by another shortly after. In the evening KANGAROO went in and silenced the tower then, until midnight, the boats of the two brigs under Lieut. FOULERTON of KANGAROO and Lieut. WARBURTON and midshipman COCHRANE of SPEEDY were employed in cutting out three brigs laden with wine rice and bread. Later Lord COCHRANE took the same officers under his command and went inshore to try and bring off more but found the remainder were either sunk or driven ashore.
On 3 July 1801 SPEEDY, escorting a packet to Gibraltar, was chased and eventually captured by Rear-Ad. LINOIS's squadron of two battleships and a frigate as it passed through the Straits on the way from Toulon to Cadiz. The French squadron was unsuccessfully attacked in Algeciras with COCHRANE watching from the deck of the DESSAIX. SPEEDY was sighted later by RACOON in the Bay of Biscay heading for Brest under jury masts. Lord COCHRANE was sent to Gibnraltar on parole and was soon exchanged for the second captain of the SAN ANTONIO, captured on the night of the 12th.

Fact is not stranger than fiction.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 10:10 AM

I remember an episode of Stingray ("Anthing can happen in the next half-hour!", but it usually didn't) that Commander Shore and his underling, whose name escapes me, sailed a replica of some historical full-rigged warship double-handed across the Atlantic (or maybe the Pacific). Even at the tender age of mid-teens, I knew that there were more ropes than crew to haul on them!

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 09:04 AM

Kendall, having sailed a brigantine with only one other crew member aboard, I can truly say that it's not impossible, just difficult. Actually, when everything is finally set up, it's downright pleasant. EBarnacle

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 02:04 AM

Far better, Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: kendall
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 08:02 PM

Is this movie better than Pirates of the Caribbean? That was one of the worst films I have ever seen.
Two guys, one of them a blacksmith, steal a ship, a square rigger and sail her from Jamaica to Tortuga by themselves? That's only one complaint. It was awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Naemanson
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 07:55 PM

Teribus, I remember seeing that article in Yankee magazine many years ago. I've always wanted find it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 02:39 PM

You are, of course, correct. The dates of the undeclared war between the US and France were 1798 to 1800, and the USS Constitution was launched in October 1797.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 02:06 PM

Art, neither the US Constitution nor the Vessel Constitution existed in 1778. Check your dates. EBarnacle

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 07:48 PM

Damn it Les, I give yer a feed line and yer ingnore it.

For the less nautically/salaciously minded the "Golden Rivet" was, by ledgend the last rivet put in a ship, down below near the rudder, and inocent young ships boys were assured that they would see heaven if they were to bend down and kiss the rivit.

Hence the phrase "Kissing the Golden Rivet"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST,evilc
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 07:35 PM

come on mcgrath,own up , is russell paying you too?

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 04:37 PM

By the way, the US was at war (sorta) with France from 1778 to 1780, so that part of the story above about stopping in Jamace was likely true...I'd question the part about seizing the rum from British men-of-war and merchantmen. Also by the way, this conflict was also notable for the birth of the US Marine Corps, on July 11, 1798. The Continental Marines, whose date of establishment the US Marines of today celebrate, had been disbanded several years before.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 02:26 PM

These people aren't always too expert, Gareth. They give her 'weight' as 1053 tons, but actually that's her burthen in 'builders old measurement' - a measure of size and/or carrying capacity.

These silver/golden nails often existed, but I think they were more presentation things rather than hammered into the ship/railway.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 01:48 PM

Nice link Les, but when I read the story of the Silver Nail in the keel why am I reminded of the "Golden Rivit" - Could this be the origin of the story ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 12:24 PM

So why was the Constitution attacking British shipping in 1798? Then it was jolly nice of us to reprovision her in Jamaica.

Does anyone really believe that someone anyone could drink well over 180 gallons of spirits (plus the wine) in an eight months cruise?

Mouldy - at the time nearly all the cabins were made of temporary partitions which were struck into the hold on 'clearing for action'. These 'replica' ships can't be that accurate because of modern safety regulations, which is fair enough.

You can get a better idea of what conditions would have been like by visiting the preserved warships, such as HMS Trincomalee at Hartlepool. Our American friends may be interested to know that she was a sister ship of HMS Shannon (Leda class 38gun frigate)

Trincomalee

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 11:37 AM

So, they all drank rum and wine in preference to stagnant water...the point would be? (GBG)

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 08:26 AM

Somebody just sent me this - it is of the period - might amuse some of you:

LITTLE KNOWN NAVAL HISTORY
The U.S.S. Constitution (Old Ironsides) as a combat vessel carried 48,600 gallons of fresh water for her crew of 475 officers and men. This was sufficient to last six months of sustained operations at
sea. She carried no evaporators (fresh water distillers).

However, let it be noted that according to her log, "On July 27, 1798,
the U.S.S. Constitution sailed from Boston with a full complement of 475 officers and men, 48,600 gallons of fresh water, 7,400 cannon shot, 11,600 pounds of black powder and 79,400 gallons of rum."

Her mission: "To destroy and harass English shipping." Making Jamaica on 6 October, she took on 826 pounds of flour and 68,300 gallons of rum. Then she headed for the Azores, arriving there 12 November. She
provisioned with 550 pounds of beef and 64,300 gallons of Portuguese wine. On 18 November, she set sail for England.

In the ensuing days she defeated five British men-of-war and captured and scuttled 12 English merchantmen, salvaging only the rum aboard each. By 26 January, her powder and shot were exhausted. Nevertheless, and though unarmed, she made a night raid up the Firth of Clyde in Scotland. Her landing party captured a whiskey distillery and transferred 40,000 gallons of single malt Scotch aboard by dawn.

Then she headed home.

The U.S.S. Constitution arrived in Boston on 20 February 1799, with no cannon shot, no food, no powder, NO rum, NO wine, NO whiskey and 38,600 gallons of stagnant water.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 04:29 AM

Did Crowe go toi Australia of his own accord? In England we belive that makes a big difference to his nationality!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: mouldy
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 04:20 AM

I went to see it last night with my daughter and her friend.
It is around 30 years since I read any of the books, and so I went in just to see an adventure and to take it at face value.
We all enjoyed it. I liked the nice little touch shown as the ship went through the icy southern waters the poor sod risking frostbite in delicate areas as he relieved himself off the bows! This lead to thoughts of the stench while they were becalmed, to say nothing of the even higher risk of disease, if that were not already high enough, given conditions on ships at the time.

I think the girls enjoyed it. Mine is hoping to do English lit with film and tv studies (or media) at uni next year. Her friend has applied to drama school. This shows in the way they react to films. My lass will show a greater interest in continuity, special effects and the like, as well as the dialogue, whereas her friend will extract pieces of dialogue she likes and play around with them, before anything else. (Ruth says she is expecting the text messages she receives in the near future to be full of naval jargon).

On the continuity/music - did anyone notice the final duet, where Aubrey ceases strumming his fiddle and starts bowing...and for a few seconds, while he is picking up his bow, the fiddle strumming continues alongside that of the cello? We were already primed on this one as Ruth had heard about it. (Nothing to do with her actually being a fiddler herself!)

As we were sad enough to sit through the credits, we noticed that WETA in New Zealand worked on some of the special CGI effects.

One of the ships (Grand Turk) used in the Hornblower films was on show at Whitby this year, and although it has been built to a slightly larger scale between decks to accommodate the increased average height these days, it did give quite a good indication of the lack of space on these vessels. The captain's cabin was very similar to that of the Surprise, but it wasn't in such close proximity to the gundeck that all you had to do was remove a partition! I remember the rudder mechanism running through it, so I understood what the officers were looking at when they toasted the change of course.
Les will be able to say more about the Turk, perhaps.

I think my one abiding memory of the first of the books I read was the description of the terrible injuries sustained in battle, not so much from shot as from flying splinters.

Andrea

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 09:48 PM

That was my understanding from the books. Can you elaborate McGrath?

Or do we have to go to the dueling grounds, O'Brian books at 10 paces!

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:55 PM

"as a Catholic he could not swear allegiance to anyone, king, captain, or other above the pope."

Not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:31 PM

Born in New Zealand, but grew up in Australia from the age of four - I think most people would count that as being Australian enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:24 PM

Funny, I thought he was English, trying to speak American.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST,evilc
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:02 PM

lets get one thing straight russell crowe is not an australian . he comes from new   zealand. secondly he is a terrible actor. thirdly no matter how much he tries to buy his way into an australian community ,and act like a yobbo,he will always be a kiwi to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 01:04 AM

I don't think there was any danger in Maturin's serving as a warrant officer. The problem would have come in if he had been taken into the Navy as an officer. Then he would have been required to swear and oath to the king and as a Catholic he could not swear allegiance to anyone, king, captain, or other above the pope. As O'Brian explained in the story warrant officers didn't have to take that oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:20 AM

"Aubrey was a very complex man, full of contradictions, his unquestionable sense of duty, combined with the fact that at any time he could have been found guilty of treason for permitting a catholic to serve onboard his ship as ship's surgeon"

The penalty suggested sounds abit more than discrimination Charley. In time of war particularly around that era I don't think that the navy were too choosey about where they got their men - a quick look at the different nationalities onboard "Victory" at Trafalgar shows that. The Catholic Relief Act of 1778 was introduced for one reason, to allow catholics to enlist without having to swear allegiance with ties to the Church of England. Our American friends might notice the significance of the date, which might explain why the British needed people under the colours.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:43 AM

Just a correction to what Naemanson said above about the ballad "The Wreck of the Lady Washington." I do sing the song but it was composed by Micki Perry in 1991 of Washington state after her unfortunate encounter with a railroad bridge.

Still haven't seen this movie but I'm looking forward to it. With regard to Teribus's point about the passage of Irish Catholic "reform laws," I would suggest that O'Brian is correct that actual discrimination in the Royal Navy continued for years, if not decades.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:35 AM

Kevin,

They have actual film footage of that, and it is awesome. B and W of course and a bit grainy but still very impressive. You would also have to add your own sound track.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:00 PM

Watching the passage of Cape Horn I was wishing that someone could make a film about the non military ships in the latter half of the 19th century, and the men who sailed in them - but with the same degree of graphic accuracy.   And it'd be able to have shanties, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:15 AM

Personally, I'm grateful that POB did split the series up into smallish epsodes -- it was so frustrating to finish one and have to wait so long for the next!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:16 AM

Well put, Teribus. In earlier eras, commissions could be bought, as captains at times had to provide their own warships. This precedent may relate to the development of privateering and the way many of the early vessels of the United States Navy. [I am on somewhat slippery ground here.] I believe that the tradition changed around the time of Samuel Pepys or a little later. Vestiges of it continued into the 19th century in that mids were expected to serve for nominal or no wages and their parents were expected to endow them for their apprenticeship.

I am currently rereading the whole series and am, as usual, annoyed over O'B's habit of writing his pages and stopping in mid adventure. He then picks up the next book. Specifically, the Ionian Mission, Treason's Harbor and the first part of The Far Side of the World should be one book. Of course, fewer books would have been sold that way... The first few pages of FSOTW explain Hollum's presence on board and give the genesis of his "Jonahism."

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:55 AM

Very true Melani,

Commanding Officers of RN ships did, and still do, eat alone. The Wardroom (Officers Mess) is the only compartment of an RN ship that the Captain cannot just walk into, he must be invited, or he must ask permission. While I was "in", the latter, out of courtesy was extended to Senior and Junior Rates Messes, for any Officer entering a Mess who was not on duty. The only time a cap is worn in the ship is when you are on duty - a hang over from my time in the RN is that it still irks me when I see people wearing hats in-doors and at the table.

The midshipman (lowliest "rank" in the navy) thing regarding meals was something that Nelson was well known for, he encouraged it and his "band of brothers" continued it. Nelson's advice was to get the midshipmen out of the ship as often as possible, in order that they could experience things other than life in a purely naval enviroment. It was also a way of informally determining how the midshipmen were faring onboard professionally and personally. The midshipmen's mess onboard an RN ship was called the Gunroom. Mid-to-late sixties some RN ships (Assault ships, Aircraft Carriers, some DLG's) still maintained that tradition, in the remainder of the fleet the mid's were members of the Wardroom.

The Royal Navy, of the time in which the film is set, differed from the Army in that Commissions could not be bought, an officer had to prove his competance, training first as a midshipman, then he had to pass an examination in seamanship and navigation to progress to the rank of Lieutenant. After that promotion was down to a mixture of merit, influence, luck, sickness and the violence of the sea or the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:43 AM

Many of the criticisms made above are accurate. However at its worst it was the best sailing ship film I've ever seen. At its best I felt like I was INSIDE the books, especially when Jack and Stephen were playing music together. The cavils fade into isignificance compared to the wonderful achievement - one of the few films I've seen approaching the books it's based on. I'll be seeing it again!

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: Melani
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 04:16 PM

Naemanson--Some of the meals Jack ate with the gunroom were overly stilted and formal, but then sometimes they loosened up and went well as dinner progressed, especially after a few bottles. Jack liked nothing better than a successful dinner where everyone had fun. He mostly ate alone or just with Stephen, but usually had Sunday dinner in the gunroom. He also at various times would invite the midshipman and officer of the watch to eat breakfast with him, largely because he wanted to give the hungry midshipmen a shot at a big breakfast. The dinner shown in the movie was one of the jollier ones, late in the meal when they were passing the port around.

I agree with BillR about the Lady Washington--apparently the movie was seen as a chance to get some needed work done. I noticed they replaced her giant tiller with a wheel for the movie--I guess the tiller didn't look pirately enough for Disney. I assume they put the tiller back afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 03:08 AM

Finally got to see the film last night, thought it was excellent. I hope that there will be more of them.