 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Naemanson Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:45 PM Thanks for the reassurance, BillR. As for movie crews, LadyJean, there have been a few in Maine over the last decade. They made mel Gibson's Man Without A Face and Kevin Costner's Message In A Bottle in my home town. I have not heard any reports of the crews brutalizing the locals or the local scenery. However, I once met a woman whose father refused to rent them his cabin for use in Message because he thought they'd ruin it. The rented a cabin two doors down and ruined it. They almost doubled the size but the construction was pretty shoddy. This friend stayed at her father's cabin and watched the filming. She met Joanne Woodward, Paul Newman's wife, and they walked the beach together a few times. there were stories all over town about meetings with Paul Newman, Kevin Costner and Robin Wright-Penn. And the locals got a good laugh ouut of some of the things the movie people did. The daughter of another friend got a job as an assistant to the props director. The gave her a handful of cash so she could pop down to the local junk shops to get old stuff for use in the movie. At one point she over heard the prop crew discussing the design of a table for the baot launching party in the movie. She told them that these were boat builders and fishermen. They would put some planks on a couple of saw horses and that would be that. Later she heard them arguing over the design of the sawhorses! It was great fun. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Gareth Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:28 PM Well - If I can find the time next week I'am off to the Multi-Screen Cinema at Nantgarrw. But a word of warning to ye Yankees. Jack Aubry may have been wounded whilst on board the HMS "Java" but as an excaped prisoner he was also on board the HMS "Shannon" that day off Cape Cod. I look forward to the film, and, I suspect, the sequel - That is if they follow up "Desolation Island", and "The Fortune of War". As Jack would say "Parse that, you b****r !" Gareth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: LadyJean Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:59 AM With regards to the Lady Washington. A lot of people have made a lot of movies here in Pittsburgh. When a film crew uses something, your neighborhood, they treat it as though it was theirs to break. They will cut down trees, if they get in the way. The crew from "Shades of Gray" played frisbee on the roof of our landmark building. They will tow your car, they will trash your garden. They will treat the locals with neither respect or courtesy. Nor will they use any of the local businesses. If a film crew visits your neighborhood, tell them to go away. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Dec 03 - 07:39 PM Just saw it today, and I'd advise anyone to go and see it. Definitely one for the big screen, it'd be lost on a telly. Though it would be interesting to know what they were saying in some of the dialogue. And there's some lovely music in there. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: BillR Date: 05 Dec 03 - 02:55 AM Naemanson, The Gray's Harbor Historical Seaport Authority (The Lady's owner) was well aware of what Disney's people did to her. I thinbk they even helped design the changes. Part of the deal for renting here was that Disney would put here back the way they found here when they were done. When I last saw the Lady a month or so ago she still had here PotC paint job and you could see where the extra gun ports were, but otherwise she looke like the Lady I know. -Bill |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Naemanson Date: 04 Dec 03 - 09:37 PM Early on in this thread someone (Guest?) compared M&C with Pirates Of The Carribean. Now, I won't dignify that with an answer but last night I watched the How-We-Made-The-Movie section of the DVD for POTC. The ship they used for the Interceptor was the Lady Washington that Charley Noble has immortalized in song. They RENTED her for the movie and then drastically changed her appearance, cutting ports for the cannon, building up her stern and generally playing havoc with a sweet piece of the shipwright's craft. There was no word, of course, as to the reaction of the owners to what they did to the ship. Does anyone out there know? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: EBarnacle Date: 04 Dec 03 - 03:33 PM Art, consider that the distance between officers and crew was probably closer to the relationship found in HH than in M&C. As has been said, in an age when every man stood ready to defend his honour to the death, distance was the only protection. The distance between officers and men is especially important to maintain when the officer may have to sacrifice crew members in part or in whole without visible emotion [that stiff upper lip, remember]. In some respects, the distance is analogous to that between a farmer and the animals who would have to be sold or eaten for meat. They might recognize them but they would not get friendly with them. The HH series is significantly closer to the books than M&C is to the series. The stories, with significant variation for salability, follow the stories as written. The relationships seem true to the tale as written. My key question is: How is Hornblower going to be aged believeably over the remainder of the series. I also noted that the auxiliary vessels used in HH seem to be vessels which have appeared at the various festivals over the past few years. These vessels generally are accurate replicas of period vessels and are built for local pride. I do, however, question the vessel used as Hotspur. The hull does not look like a period sloop of war. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: GUEST,Val Date: 04 Dec 03 - 05:16 AM Apparently the bit about the gun carriages is factual, though - taken straight out of one of Cochrane's escapades |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Naemanson Date: 04 Dec 03 - 01:53 AM Oh! And what was that about taking the rear wheels off the gun carriages? Did the producers overlook the fact that there is an elevation adjustment on cannon? Give me a break! Those guns would have destroyed the deck and the carriages would have come apart under the strain. Grumble, grumble, gripe, gripe. I STILL insist I liked the movie but that point has been bothering me since I saw it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: artbrooks Date: 03 Dec 03 - 08:13 PM I watched the first of the new Hornblower movies on TV last night, and thought it was very antiseptic compared to M&C. The acting was pretty wooden, everyone was neat and clean, and the battle scenes were contrived. I plan to watch the next one tonight. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Les from Hull Date: 03 Dec 03 - 08:09 PM Still not got to see it ('cos Maggie's poorly a bit), but on the 'making of' kind of prog on UK TV I did notice that the music track included the tune 'Nancy Dawson', the tune that O'Brien mentions in the books was used for the grog issue. (It starts a bit like 'here we go round the mulberry bush') So I suppose that's in there too. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Blowzabella Date: 03 Dec 03 - 07:17 PM If John Wayne had ever made a film about being a swash buckling British sea captain, this would have been the movie for him. From an earlier post - well good enough for me is what I say! Seriously though - I enjoyed it very much - i have read the books, but long enough ago not to remember them word for word, so I wasn't distracted by detractions from the storyline. I got a bit amused at Russell's posing halfway up the bowsprit - to look bold and imposing - instead of being on the quarter deck - but that's modern men for you, no sense of proper form! It was beautifully filmed, atmospheric and conjured up a reasonable idea of life at sea - not as well as 'Perfect Storm' but that's a different kettle of swordfish! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Matthew B. Date: 03 Dec 03 - 05:59 PM Does anyone know the name of the song the crew sang right after Spanish Ladies was halted? It was to the tune of The Bonnie Ship the Diamond but began with something like lads; a warning take by me, and never leave the lass you love to plow the raging sea.... It's a version I'm not aware of. Any one know it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: MartinRyan Date: 03 Dec 03 - 04:50 PM Naemanson I agree completely about the meals! The atmosphere portrayed was far too democratic! Regards |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Naemanson Date: 02 Dec 03 - 04:01 PM Well, I saw it last night, at last. Short review? Good solid action movie, scrupulously researched and accurate in most of its detail. Short on plot but it comes across as one incident in a long career so the weak plot is acceptable because the movie is a snapshot of one mission during a long war. Over all I liked the movie. [Caution! What I say next I say in the full knowledge that the characters could never be portrayed on the screen as they were on the page.] BUT! It was not Patrick O'Brian's characters. Sure, they had the same name but it was not them. Aubrey held himself aloof from the crew AND HIS OFFICERS. He usually had trouble getting the gunroom to lighten up in his presence. The RARE meals they shared were always overly formal. Aubrey would never have displayed himself like Crowe's interpretation of the character. Maturin always understood the needs of the service and though he chafed at missing out on naturalist opportunities he understood that the captain was the ultimate decision maker and could not be contradicted. He was scrupulous in separating their friendship from his place on the ship as a warrant officer. Bonden was NOT a hobbit. *grin* Barrett Bonden was a big man, a long time sailor, a fore mast jack, and a hard fighting loyal follower of the captain. There was too much emotion. The 19th century British upper society male was a study in control. The captain held himself above silly human emotions. That control was vital to dealing with other people in an age when everyone was armed and ready to take offense. At the beginning of the 19th century society was just emerging from a time when disagreements could degenerate into fights that ended with the death of one participant. The elaborate ritual and dance of evey day interaction was intended to avoid that but dueling was still possible. Fighting became more and more formalized until finally outlawed. As a result men had to act within a very restricted set of social rules. Actions of others were carefully gauged and measured, looking for anything that might be interpreted as offence. Any evidence of weakness was avoided because that gave potential enemies an advantage. Any man could be an enemy so all were treated equally, with distance and formality. In such a world finding a real friend (as in Aubrey and Maturin) was a golden opportunity. Still, the formality was a vivid part of even that relationship. Now that is off my chest let me repeat. I liked the movie. I hope they make a sequel to continue the chase. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Dani Date: 02 Dec 03 - 08:31 AM BTW, www.winstonchurchill.org (went there to check on some quotes ;) has some fascinating info on an amazing man. You can check out his actions by the DAY! He made some really wonderful observations on Ireland's relationship with England. Dani |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Dani Date: 02 Dec 03 - 08:24 AM McGrath, that's interesting! The rating over here is, "PG-13 for intense battle sequences, related images and brief language." Are y'all just more battle-hardened, or did they clean it up for UK viewers?? Dani |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Steve Parkes Date: 02 Dec 03 - 05:16 AM As Stephen himself said, albeit in jest, as an RC he would never be able to host his own flag. But he could hold his Warrant quite legitimately. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Teribus Date: 02 Dec 03 - 04:53 AM Watched a bit of a documentary on the making of the film last night. It included an interview with Russel Crowe. When asked about the character he had played, he then came out with something to the effect, "Aubrey was a very complex man, full of contradictions, his unquestionable sense of duty, combined with the fact that at any time he could have been found guilty of treason for permitting a catholic to serve onboard his ship as ship's surgeon" The setting of the film is around 1807? Catholic Relief Act passed 29 years earlier allowed catholics to join HM Forces without having to swear allegiance to the Church of England, further Relif Act passed in 1793, which gave catholics the vote. Neither were repealled so - Who on earth fed him such tripe??? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: MartinRyan Date: 02 Dec 03 - 04:41 AM Saw the film last night. Enjoyed it very much. I think they did an excellent job of capturing much of the essence of the book series, without getting too bogged down in the cumulative detail of the latter. As others have said, the Maturin portrayed is, in come ways, rather different from the original - but quite effective despite that. As a sailor, my nose twitched suspiciously occasionally in some scenes that didn't quite ring true - but rather less often than I expected! Regards |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Lady Hillary Date: 01 Dec 03 - 10:19 AM The above should have concluded: EBarnacle on Lady Hillary's machine. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Lady Hillary Date: 01 Dec 03 - 10:13 AM I generally enjoyed the film. One point of annoyance, though, was that the movie ended as did so many of the books--off on another chase. It is obvious that there will be a sequel. Will Leftenant Pullings survive in this one? He is a continuing presence in the books. The singer was a Mid, not a lieutentant and he was cutting into the crew's enjoyment as well as compromising his own distance from them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Schantieman Date: 01 Dec 03 - 10:05 AM I saw it on Saturday (with Ms L) and, despite my usual scepticism was impressed by both the historical and textual accuracy. The effect of the shot in the battle scenes was particularly impressive, and I found the amputation of Blakeney's arm (Ms L couldn't watch!)and the death of his friend in the boarding quite moving. On the debit side, the ship was once or twice seen to be 'sailing' at several knots with no waves, virtually no wind and a distinct propeller wake! And why was Bonden (the boatswain, if I remember rightly) at the wheel so often? And why did Aubrey take the wheel from him or from the quartermaster... ...But on the whole, very impressive and a good evening out. I must now re-read the books! Steve |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Naemanson Date: 01 Dec 03 - 08:32 AM One of my siblings actually dragged my father to see the movie. His comment was that he should have taken along a plastic bag full of sewage and dirt because the only detail they overlooked was the smell. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Amos Date: 30 Nov 03 - 11:49 PM It is a fine movie, very well produced, nicely turned, nicely detailed; there is plot enough, but there is room for more. I am very glad I saw it, and I won't go twice. I have concluded that no matter how well done the film, the feel of a real deck will never quite make it to the screen. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Naemanson Date: 30 Nov 03 - 11:42 PM My sister sent me a poster from the movie. It shows a ship (Surprise?) obviously the worse for wear, possibly after a battle, just coming out of the smoke or fog. I will see the movie tonight so I will have a better idea later on. But it sure looks good on my office wall. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Nov 03 - 06:48 AM Here's a weather gauge to put on your key ring. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Steve Parkes Date: 28 Nov 03 - 04:22 AM Talking of the Guardian, a "weather gauge" must be a thing for measuring weather; I think they meant "weather gage". What irony: they manage to spell a word correctly and still get it wrong! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Naemanson Date: 27 Nov 03 - 11:56 PM You may be right, Blowzabella, but remember it is only human to overlook the injustices under our noses and be aghast at those elsewhere. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Blowzabella Date: 27 Nov 03 - 07:05 PM I'm not claimimg to be an expert in anything here, so please don't jump on me but - I remember reading that once, when Nelson returned to Burnham Thorpe, he was appalled at the conditions that he saw farm labourers were living in. When you consider what conditions were like in the Navy, what on earth were they like in late C18th / early C19th Norfolk, if Nelson felt so strongly about it. Also, unless there was a 'hot press' (ie if there was a real urgent need for a lot of men, such as in 1803/4 after the Treaty of Amiens had failed - during which lots of sailors had been discharged) the press gangs really only wanted men with experience of the sea. A crew of landsmen were not what they were looking for. In a hot press, however, this all went to the wall and even many 'reserved occupations' (correct terminology escapes me) were fair game. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Nov 03 - 02:13 PM I was in our local cinema today and saw a notice about Master and Commander: "Contains moderate violence and one use of strong language". Can this film really be as true-to-life as has been suggested. "One use of strong language" - surely sailors have never been quite that restrained! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Les from Hull Date: 27 Nov 03 - 01:49 PM Yes I know about Glatton - she was a two deck ship (fourth rate 56) and so not a frigate. But the idea of having a full set 68 pounder carronades on the gun deck, and a full set of 42 pounders on the upper deck - that's some weight of metal! So who is it in the Guardian that thinks there's a crow's nest on a naval vessel? Hands to witness punishment... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Les from Hull Date: 27 Nov 03 - 01:45 PM |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Teribus Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:37 PM Hi Gareth, According to the Grauniad - I'm getting my own Command. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Gareth Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:10 PM Hmmm ! From todays Grauniad Click 'Ere - Have fun ! Gareth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Wotcha Date: 27 Nov 03 - 01:59 AM Haven't seen the film yet as it comes out in German on 27 Novmember ... can't wait! By the way, it is too bad that a movie about Lord Cochrane ("The Sea Wolf") has not been made, since his life is stranger than fiction (and the basis for several popular sea faring characters, not just Aubrey, in the past 100 years). The exploits of Cochrane and Bernardo O'Higgins (the Chilean son of an Irish Viceroy) in liberating Chile are worth a separate movie. Cochrane was the last English lord to lose his coat of arms (later restored) and other privileges for being associated with an 1820s stock market scam ... his private efforts in assisting Chile, Brazil, and later Greece got him back in the good books ... a great combat/operational captain but lousy senior officer (he wouldn't make it in today's military where it is up or out ...!). Cheers, Brian |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Gareth Date: 26 Nov 03 - 07:08 PM Les From Hull - "Essex" comments agreed. But there was also the HMS "Glatton" a converted East-India ship. Gareth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Les from Hull Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:37 PM Actually both - about fifty yards distance. This was on the River Hull. We're so posh here we've got two rivers, Hull and Humber. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Naemanson Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:26 PM "...a few yards from where Bounty was built..." Is that a distance measurement or are you referring to a few establishments engaged in shipbuilding? On the rivers and coasts of Maine there were shipyards wherever the conditions favored the endeavor. In the spring the crews would go into the woods to cut and by winter would have a handy little schooner in the water for cargo hauling. Because they were generally built of green wood they didn't last long and must have been leaky as sin. But once the owner had run a few trips he could afford to have a better ship built and his fortune was made. Sorry about the "drift" of the thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Les from Hull Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:23 PM Come to think of it, the only frigate armed entirely with carronades that I can think of was USS Essex. And didn't she suffer for it! There was no evidence that French ships were better-built than British ones (with the possible exception of the 'Surveyors of the Navy' class, or Armada class, built in merchant ship yards). French ships were sometimes better designed, but then it wasn't usually long before the British captured one and built to that design (such as the Leda class of frigates, like HMS Shannon). French ships usually carried stores for less the 6 months that the British favoured, and so their ships were sometimes faster. They were often more lightly built, which meant they did not last so long. These, of course, are generalisations and students of naval history can usually find exceptions. American 'catters who are interested in the development of their own Navy should get hold of 'The American Sailing Navy' by Howard I Chapelle. There were 74s being built in 1799, but by 1801 an Act of Congress limited the US Navy to the ships it already had. Work on the 74s was stopped, several frigates were laid up in ordinary as an economy measure, and gunboats built for coast defence. All down to your Mr Jefferson, I believe. Gareth - I'm not sure that there would ever be tonnage 'left over' for more fuel in the Panzershciffe. They were already 1,700 tons overweight, in spite of adopting welding and deisel engines to save weight. And the Hipper class (of 14,000 tons) had less range than the Deutschlands. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Les from Hull Date: 26 Nov 03 - 04:56 PM The original 3 big American frigates mounted 24pdrs, while most other nations' frigates had 18pdrs. The sides (scantlings) of the American frigates were also stronger, so that shot fired at long range from 18pdrs failed to penetrate. The proportion of long guns to carronades on American and British frigates was about the same. There was a plan on the American frigates to place carronades on the spar deck (between the forecastle and the quarterdeck) but this wasn't often done in practice because it affected the sailing qualities. To counter these the Royal Navy had several 24pdr ships - Endymion, Cambrian, Surveillante (ex-French), which were quite a bit smaller. They quickly built others in 1813-14 (in fir); 5 repeats of Endymion, and the larger Newcastle and Java, which were similar in size to the Humphries design. Indefatigable and Magnamine had been cut down from 64gun ships-of-the-line in 1795, carrying 24pdrs on the upper deck, but without the heavy carronade armament of the American vessels. Goliath, Saturn and Majestic were cut down from 74s in 1813, and carried 32pdrs. Endymion and Saturn were part of the squadron that captured USS President in 1815. Returning to the Rose (the ship used in the film for HMS Surprise), Rose is a somewhat inaccurate replica of HMS Rose, a 20gun sixth rate ('post-ship') built in 1757. Actually HMS Rose was built at Blaydes' shipyard here in Hull, less than half a mile from me, and only a few yards from where Bounty was built. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Melani Date: 26 Nov 03 - 03:12 PM I have been lucky enough recently to have a little run around the bay in a boat known as "the Bounty launch", said to be a replica of the one Bligh took to Australia after the mutiny. It's sobering to think of cramming 18 people into it and sailing thousands of miles--it's 22 feet long. What kept the men on board was the fact that they weren't allowed off--sometimes for two years or more, even when anchored in home ports. That's why they allowed women on board. Sometimes they didn't get paid for a couple of years, either. Rather hard on their families, if they had them. Also, more of them died of disease than in battle. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Peter T. Date: 26 Nov 03 - 08:22 AM Finally saw it last night with a couple of other stalwart fans of the books, and one of us (not me) was pissed off at the liberties with the book, and the other two enjoyed it immensely (including me). I think it was beautifully, beautifully filmed, and really captured what it was like to be at sea in rough weather (I sailed on brigantines as a teenager, and it brought it all back). You really get plunged into the atmosphere. The silences are particularly well handled, the nights at sea. I did think that the characterization of Maturin was a shame -- as said above, he should be the opposite of Aubrey -- thin, black complexioned, ill-favoured, messy, etc. I also missed the women (especially Diana, sigh). I can't see how it would have hurt the film to have had 3 minutes of "sending the lads off" which would have given us some contrast with domestic life. I thought the sentimental side was well done. Could have done without the lingering shot of the cello though. yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Teribus Date: 26 Nov 03 - 06:19 AM Ooops, couple of corrections/clarifications need to my last post: "Well said Steve, no statement ever penned." Should read - "Well said Steve, no better statement ever penned." Also during the Rum Riot in 1808, "He trod on too many toes making money and he was deposed by a mutiny in 1808," Should read - "He trod on too many toes of those making money and he was deposed by a mutiny in 1808," |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Teribus Date: 26 Nov 03 - 06:04 AM Well said Steve, no statement ever penned. Well versed in mathematics and science, a talented writer and illustrator. First went to sea at the age of 7. Joined the Royal navy at the age of 15 Sailing Master to Captain James Cook at the age of 22 Naval actions fought: Dogger Bank - 1781 Gibraltar - 1782 Camperdown - 1797 - In Command Copenhagen - 1801 - In Command (commended for his bravery in action by Nelson) His voyage in the Bounty in 1783 and the resulting Mutiny, for which he has been unjustly vilified. His voyage, with 18 others in a ships boat measuring 23ft long and a beam of 6ft 9" from Tofua to Timor even today is considered one of the epic feats of survival and navigation. The voyage lasted 47 days and covered a distance of 3618 nautical miles without the loss of a single man. In 1801 he became a Fellow of the Royal Society for his distinquished work associated with navigation and botony. In 1805 he became Governor of New South Wales, where he did his utmost to stamp out corruption. He trod on too many toes making money and he was deposed by a mutiny in 1808, led by a Major Johnstone. Released two years later he returned to England where he was exhonorated, Johnstone on the other hand was sent for trial and cashiered from the Army in disgrace. In 1814 he was promoted to Vice Admiral. Remarkable man indeed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Steve Parkes Date: 26 Nov 03 - 04:20 AM Walrus, as a sometime adopted son of Lichfield, I think it's safe to say that you should take anything Dr Johnson said cum grano salis: his attitude was, "if it gets a laugh, keep it in the act", regardless of accuracy. William Bligh -- was there ever a man so misrepresented by posterity? His curse was to be a scrupulously honest and fair man who couldn't understand why people weren't all as honest and fair in return; he took any deceit to be a betrayal. I reccomend Gavin Kennedys Bligh. Don't read Nordhoff & Hall's Mutiny on The Bounty unless you bear in mind it's a pack of lies. Steve |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Naemanson Date: 26 Nov 03 - 03:18 AM Wasn't there some discussion at the time that the new US couldn't and wouldn't build line of battle ships? I think there was some discussion that we shouldn't try to go toe-to-toe with a British fleet. The compromise, as Walrus points out, was to build huge frigates and avoid a driect confrontation with massed fleets. With the ships they built they were able to bring individual ships to action and avoid contact with the larger vessels. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Teribus Date: 26 Nov 03 - 02:32 AM Don asked a question regarding American and British/European Frigates of the period the film is set. As Walrus has pointed out late 1700's Frigates in Europe were between 28 to 36 gun warships. Their primary role was to serve as "the eyes of the fleet". America did not possess a deep water navy her Frigates mounted 44 guns. Into the early 1800's British Frigates mounted between 36 and 38 guns. But the main difference was not in the number of guns but also in the type of guns mounted. Nelson's adage (epitomised by his final signal at Trafalgar "Close Action") caused the Royal Navy to arm their Frigates with a disproportionate number of carronades (very light guns that fired an enormous weight of shot/chain shot/Grape. Their disadvantage however was that the effective range was reduced. During the war of 1812, the American 44's mounted long guns and could stand off the 36-38 gun British frigates and disable them before closing for the kill. To counter this British Frigate captains were ordered not to engage unless the American 44 was outnumbered 2 to 1. Single ship actions did take place and some of those actions could only be described as epic. Royal Navy tactics proved successful, apart from very rare raids, the American Navy was penned in American east coast ports. This had one significant drawback, experienced crews, arms and commanders were released for service on the Great Lakes, where the American Navy proved extremely effective. The Royal Navy's 74's of the time were the real killing ships of the era. Most favoured by the commanding officers were French 74's captured in the early part of the French Revolutionary War, they were better built and the casting of their guns was better. Manned by British sailors they could be fought better than any other warship of their time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: LadyJean Date: 26 Nov 03 - 01:03 AM RE the fiddler on the Bounty. Bligh employed a blind fiddler on his HMS Bounty, to play for the men. He could be very nice when he was in the right mood, and a genuine S.O.B. when he wasn't. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Master and Commander FSOTW reviews From: Coyote Breath Date: 26 Nov 03 - 12:19 AM Pressing might have had it's good points. A relative on my mother's side of the family was pressed to fight for France in the F&I wars (King George's, specifically), ended up marrying a Mohawk woman and living in Joseph Brandt's town. He had many sons and their offspring left the Mohawk Valley to settle in Wisconsin territory, near what is now called Mauston. Their name was (and still is) Fluneau (fluno). CB |
