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BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?

Mickey191 20 Nov 03 - 07:10 PM
Amos 20 Nov 03 - 07:26 PM
Mickey191 20 Nov 03 - 07:46 PM
Bobert 20 Nov 03 - 07:53 PM
Mickey191 20 Nov 03 - 08:04 PM
Janice in NJ 20 Nov 03 - 09:13 PM
DougR 20 Nov 03 - 09:21 PM
Bobert 20 Nov 03 - 09:32 PM
Jeri 20 Nov 03 - 10:02 PM
Ebbie 20 Nov 03 - 10:18 PM
DougR 20 Nov 03 - 10:57 PM
Bobert 20 Nov 03 - 11:07 PM
Barry Finn 20 Nov 03 - 11:17 PM
Mickey191 20 Nov 03 - 11:36 PM
SueB 21 Nov 03 - 12:37 AM
GUEST,Teribus 21 Nov 03 - 02:10 AM
Bobert 21 Nov 03 - 09:07 AM
Peace 21 Nov 03 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,pdc 21 Nov 03 - 01:11 PM
DougR 21 Nov 03 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,pdq 21 Nov 03 - 01:24 PM
Amos 21 Nov 03 - 01:32 PM
harpgirl 21 Nov 03 - 02:56 PM
Ebbie 21 Nov 03 - 03:08 PM
the lemonade lady 21 Nov 03 - 03:11 PM
Amos 21 Nov 03 - 03:33 PM
DougR 21 Nov 03 - 04:26 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 03 - 05:07 PM
Ebbie 21 Nov 03 - 05:38 PM
Donuel 21 Nov 03 - 08:36 PM
Amos 21 Nov 03 - 08:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 03 - 09:00 PM
LadyJean 22 Nov 03 - 12:14 AM
GUEST,Mickey191 22 Nov 03 - 12:59 AM
Barry Finn 22 Nov 03 - 01:08 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 03 - 07:46 AM
Rapparee 22 Nov 03 - 10:42 AM
Alaska Mike 22 Nov 03 - 02:23 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 03 - 03:01 PM
Amos 22 Nov 03 - 03:55 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 03 - 04:01 PM
Amos 22 Nov 03 - 06:20 PM
jimmyt 22 Nov 03 - 09:44 PM
GUEST 23 Nov 03 - 03:00 AM
SINSULL 23 Nov 03 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Frankham 23 Nov 03 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,pdq 23 Nov 03 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,LB 23 Nov 03 - 04:21 PM
Bobert 23 Nov 03 - 07:10 PM
DougR 23 Nov 03 - 11:40 PM
GUEST,pdq 23 Nov 03 - 11:50 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Nov 03 - 12:36 AM
Metchosin 24 Nov 03 - 03:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 03 - 01:55 PM
jimmyt 24 Nov 03 - 03:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Nov 03 - 04:21 PM
jimmyt 24 Nov 03 - 04:43 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Nov 03 - 05:39 PM
jimmyt 24 Nov 03 - 07:27 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Nov 03 - 07:55 PM
Teribus 25 Nov 03 - 01:28 PM
Teribus 25 Nov 03 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,pdc 25 Nov 03 - 03:06 PM
Bobert 25 Nov 03 - 05:47 PM
Teribus 26 Nov 03 - 03:32 AM
Bobert 26 Nov 03 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,pdc 26 Nov 03 - 06:20 PM
Bobert 26 Nov 03 - 10:05 PM
Teribus 27 Nov 03 - 04:51 AM
Bobert 27 Nov 03 - 09:00 AM
Teribus 27 Nov 03 - 11:22 AM
Ebbie 27 Nov 03 - 12:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Nov 03 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,pdc 27 Nov 03 - 12:52 PM
Teribus 27 Nov 03 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Frankham 27 Nov 03 - 01:33 PM
Bobert 27 Nov 03 - 11:16 PM
Teribus 28 Nov 03 - 02:55 AM
Bobert 28 Nov 03 - 09:48 AM

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Subject: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Mickey191
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 07:10 PM

Reading all the posts in the "Bush Post War Plan," things look truly dismal for the average family. We (97%) think Bush is a profiteer, a war monger,a duplicitous creep, a national guard no show, a smug faced bully boy and any other nasty adjective we care to add. I agree he & many of his congressional cohorts care not one iota for the people who put them in office. (Whether by vote stealing, gerrymandering, or the occasional honest election.)
They are the fat cats who have generous pensions, health care for life, etc., while many of us find the benefits we counted on are being erroded.

I've just been wondering what you all think this country will be like in ten years. Will the middle class be wiped out? Will college be available to only rich kids? Will life expectancy start dropping because people won't be able to afford medical care?
Won't crime be rampant? Studs Terkel predicted the next depression will not have people selling apples, they will simply _take_ what they need. Or will our government be using WMD to take whatever land or fuel, or resource it decides it needs?

What say you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 07:26 PM

Very hard call, Mickey -- I would like to think the pendulum will have swung a bit more centrist by then. The key is the distribution curve in the economy.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Mickey191
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 07:46 PM

I forgot the darkest question of all, (must be a Freudian slip) Will there be a _one_ world government?


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 07:53 PM

"Blade Runner" comes to mind...

Yeah, I think the US governemnt is so corrupt that it will implode. We're seeing some early warnings in the power grab of Bush and his neocons. They say they against Big Brother and have become the biggest of Big Brother...

Ten years from now we will be living much like Isreal, except the suicide bombers in a "theater near you" will be made up of underground population that back in '03 was part of America's middle class...

The unfettered access to the wealth created by the working class by the rich, coupled with the cutailment of Social Security, Medicare,
etc., insures this outcome...

I'd love to be wrong but given the redristricting and rampant election fraud there is absolutely no hope in removing these neocons thru traditional democratic means...

The future is not bright for America... or worse, those of us who still believe in freedom and liberty...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Mickey191
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 08:04 PM

Bobert, Sorry to say I agree with you. They have their heel on our neck. We find a way to save a few dollars on Meds and they (Gov. & drug Co.s) in cahoots to close that door. Unions--Reagan started their demise, will be a thing of the past.

My husband used to say when the Gov't. starts sending seniors free vitamins ---watch out.(Look for skull & crossbones on the label) They'll be thinning the herd.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 09:13 PM

I have one: The history books will regard the stolen election of 2000 as the beginning of the downfall of American Democracy. It was never perfect, but it fits and starts it kept expanding from the the Colonial Era through the end of the 20th century.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: DougR
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 09:21 PM

Yep, the sky is falling.

The U. S. will be stronger, it's citizens will be better off, and folks like the previous posters will still be able to carp about their government.

DougR

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 09:32 PM

And then Dougie woke up...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 10:02 PM

Bush will be re-elected (I'm cynical), the economy will continue to go down the crapper, the jobless rate will rise, lots of folks will own their own homes (most being made out of cardboard), more people will die or become ill because they can't afford medical care, kids in the US will eventually be able to graduate from high school without being able to construct a sentence - if they CAN, they'll be considered geniouses and be accepted into college (if they can pay for it), and the 'domino' theory will continue to play out in the Middle East.

Or not.
If a Democrat gets elected, there will be some sort of scandal about his sex life or drug use back in the 70's and the economy will improve so that the next Republican president can screw it up again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 10:18 PM

It's a comfort to me to remember how wrong I've been in my predictions before. The sky is bleak- but somehow we've all muddled through in the past. Maybe we're all standing too close to the debacle.

I think we've created- or allowed it to be created- a sad, sad situation. My main concern for the moment is to get the bush and its offsh--ts safely out of office, and go from there. And I hope we'll never let a presidential election like the last one happen again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: DougR
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 10:57 PM

Jeri: That's reality. Why? Because Bush is exactly what is needed at this particular time in history. A namby pamby, like the Democrats would elect were there enough votes to elect him/her, would only result in disaster for the country, and even perhaps for the world. Unless one would prefer Osama bin Laden, or someone else with like believings as their leader.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 11:07 PM

Just say no, Dougie! I'm disappointed in you! And at yer age! You oughtta be ashamed! Hey, there's Betty Ford's Clinic fir Republican drugged out delusionaries such as your self....

Bush created 9/11 for political gain in consolidated power. Don't believe me? Then why is it the day after 9/11 the only plane flying over the US, other than military, was a Sauidi airliner picking up bin Laden's family memebers to carry them to safety in, ahhh, Saudi Arabia?

Answer me that one, Dougie, and I'll never mess with you again...

Don't answer it and I go back to my first paragraph above...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 11:17 PM

If anyone thinks we're in the shit now it's nothing compared to what's heading down the pike. Retirement, a thing of the past, it's been stolen by the well connected. Overtime pay, gone with the jobs overseas. Our rights, the Patriot acts as if they're for only the choosen few. Funding programs like Headstart (Bush's Baby), the "no child left behind" policy, education & the like is a real kick in the ass. No money? No wonder. The environmental direction of our country will be the death of us all. Terrorists, how can there be a war against a mind set? We are treating the symptoms rather than exploring the causes. Immunity from liability for gun running manufacturers, drug dealing companies, medical malpractice, soldiers of war the list is starting to look like it may soon become a reality. Not allowing any world organizations to monitor our public elections as we would demand of others. The violations of human rights, the right to hold citzens & foreigners in secert without any recourse for any amount of time & with no representation, the rebirth of government spying on it's own citizens. Were's the war on drugs, poverty, crime, illiteracy, unemployment, child mortality, hunger, disease, etc? Guess what, those war's have been lost & forgotten a long time ago, not much effort or money was put into those battles & besides we have more important wars to wage. Is this the rosey path we're choosing, to let ourselves be taken down some dark alley? With our outlook of the world, just ripe for the pickings, we are the number one enemy of life (we are the enemy!) & the most dangerous & destructive nation on earth. We are at the bottom of the list, in the eyes of the world, when it comes to the survival on earth as we know it. If this is the route we're gonna be traveling down then I'll walk, thank you kindly. This is my positive take on what lies ahead. I can't begin to imagine what the worst case scenario holds for the future. I only hope we can exit this highway to hell. And I've always been diagnosed by others as pathologicly affirmative. Go figure.
   
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Mickey191
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 11:36 PM

Geeze Doug, Throwing bin Laden into our political election mix is a reach-isn't it? Last I heard he's not a believer in any democracy or our Republic.

Used to be a Rev. Ike who exhorted the poor (while he sat there with diamond rings on every finger & sable cloak on his shoulders) to send in money for his Church. His theme was "A pie in the sky bye & bye."God will take care of you , if you take care of me." In their ignorance they supported this crafty   lying s-o-b. When I read what you've written, I get afraid that Bush might get re-elected, that enough people will buy into the lies.

Would you tell me under whose aegis you are living that you profess satisfaction at the way things are? The sky is falling,friend. Wish I had your umbrella!


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: SueB
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 12:37 AM

My friends in the lunatic fringe have been predicting the end of the world as we know it for as long as I can remember. The thing about a worst case scenario is, that's just what it is - a worst case scenario. There are an infinite number of possibilities other than the worst case. It's pretty hard to predict the future.

If Bush (and/or the syndicate/cabal behind him) manages to steal another election, well, that would really suck - it would be a catastrophe, yes, but the end of the world? I hope not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 02:10 AM

Somewhat overly pessimistic picture painted by Barry above. His predictions, his belief. So, assuming Barry lives in the US, when he states: "If this is the route we're gonna be traveling down then I'll walk, thank you kindly." - I'll bet you he doesn't


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 09:07 AM

Ain't that danged easy to walk, T. Lot o' folks here, myself included, have spent their lives developing freindships, working in our communities, building our homes and many of us are also at the age where starting over is either physically impossible or emotionally improbable... With that said, I know exactly what Barry is saying. Figuretivly (sp) speaking, he say's not in my name. But, if he's like me, he has spent some time thinking about an *exit strategy" should our fears of our government being perminently stolen by intolerant and facist thinking become ever more founded...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 12:05 PM

Ya'd figure by now DougR would have another line. "The sky is falling." Maybe it is, Doug. Play the song in a different key, PLEASE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 01:11 PM

DougR said: "Unless one would prefer Osama bin Laden, or someone else with like believings as their leader."

Your highly effective government would have to find him first, wouldn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 01:16 PM

A tried and true "oldie" should only be sung in one key!

Bobert: So? You're blaming Bin Laden's family for the sins HE committed?

Also, Bobert, regarding your comments on Barry's bleak observations on the future as he sees it, I thought you were under the impression that the facists had ALREADY taken over our government.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 01:24 PM

brucie...if you stand on you head you can yell "The Earth Is Falling, The Earth Is Falling"...try it


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 01:32 PM

Let's get one ground rule straight, here, folks:

Facism: the discrimination against another person because one does not like thier face.

Fascism: A political system predicated on centralized dictatorial control and demanding strict loyalty regardless of rational abilities (or lack thereof) in the citizenry.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 02:56 PM

Dougie's opinions are so frightening to me at this point because of their irrationality that I have given up saying anything to him. That being said, I think:

Americans will vote against Georg Bush in droves and he will not win a second term. I think we will vote for any democratic candidate just to get rid of Bush. I believe that most Americans were so horrifed by the hijacking of our democracy by the Republican radicals in 2000 that they will vote against Bush. The rest of them will vote against him for the rest of the good reasons; war mongering, stupidity, war profiteering, lies, precipitous loss of freedoms,and his inability to work effectively in the foreign sphere.

There is not a chance in hell he will be re-elected. I believe Americans are too smart for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:08 PM

I would LOVE harpgirl to be right. I hope she is, I hope she is, I hope she is...

But I do know a number of people who think that bush is just the best thing that has come along in years. These are mostly- maybe invariably- people who believe, along with the Bushites, that God installed the man. grrrrrrrrrrrrr


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:11 PM

According to the BBC 'Horizon' program I watched last night, all you have to do is crack the code that is in the Bible and the future's all there.

Sal


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:33 PM

Harpgirl:

Here at Sunnybrook, we sure do see things yore way!! I believe the future will just ineluctably prove us right, too! An' won't THAT be a hoot!!!!

Love ya, sistah!


Rebecca


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 04:26 PM

Harpgirl: surely you jest.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 05:07 PM

Amos,

"Facist thinking" is appropriate. Bush and Co, first stole an election and have since been trying very hard to solidy power. That is an element of faciam. Centralized power. Second, in demanding he gets everything he wants by demonizg his opponents as un-patriotic, Bush has taken sreps to curtail other opinions other than his. And thirdly, using 9/11 as an excuse he has pushed thru the Patriot Act and we know what thats all about... Or should... (I know you do, Amos).

So, yeah, I'm aware that those folks who harbor facist leanings, though they ma be repulsed by the nazis, have done a fine PR job on painting any one who uses the term as a whacko whoes observations must be, ahhhh, wrong... But if it walks like a duck and talks....

Yeah, I have mentioned in another thread Russ Bellant's book "Old Nazis, the New Right and the Republican Party". Makes ya' think. Maybe it's time to take on the right wings PR guys and take back some words that they think they have taken off the table...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 05:38 PM

Note the difference in Amos's spelling and meaning, Bobert:

"Facism: the discrimination against another person because one does not like thier face.

Fascism: A political system predicated on centralized dictatorial control and demanding strict loyalty regardless of rational abilities (or lack thereof) in the citizenry."

Frankly, I had never come across 'facism' before Amos's exposition but I have been made aware of 'bodism' many times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 08:36 PM

It will be everything Mickey first suggested via questions.
with one exception

The super wealthy will have access to clandestine stem cell therapies which will grant them a modicum of immortality that would shock the mortal man.

I wrote a book about these social ramifications 3 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 08:59 PM

I made "facism" up on this thread, because it seemed like too good an opportunity to ignore.

Bobert: The Fascism of Amerika 2000 is, in many ways, reminiscent of that of the Macarthy era, but less tempered.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 09:00 PM

"President Kennedy promoted Capitalism. He represented, at the time, far more a conservative philosophy than a liberal one though he was elected as a Democrat. I think, had he lived, he would have been a great President." (BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing)

"A namby pamby, like the Democrats would elect were there enough votes to elect him/her, would only result in disaster for the country, and even perhaps for the world."


Now there seems to me to be a certain inconsistency in those two posts by Doug. If the kind of attitude expressed in the first wins out over the one expressed in the second, among people who share his politics, I think the prospects for the USA and for the rest of the world will be a lot healthier than if it's the other way round.

And I have a gut feeling there's a good chance that might happen.

(And of course it's perfectly true that Kennedy did represent a "conservative philosophy" in all kinds of ways. And it is equally clear that the hellriders controlling the White House at present do not.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: LadyJean
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 12:14 AM

Having just frozen my plump Presbyterian buns off handing out Dean literature, I offer the following.

Howard Dean had two terms as president, during which he balanced the federal budget while making sure that federal income taxes were fair and equitable.
He also guaranteed that every American had full health coverage, which lead to a boom in small businesses, which, as Dean predicted, created jobs.
Americans enjoyed genuine civil liberties, while under the able direction of Secretary of Defense Wesley Clark, U.S. Troops exited a democratic Iraq, to focus on tracking down AlQuaida leaders. By May of 2007, the organization was essentially defunct.
Dean's insistance on inspecting cargo containers in U.S. ports stopped the last major attack, when they located the makings of a "dirty nuke" in the port of San Francisco, in 2005.
Dean's instance on a fair and equitable foreign policy, lead to the United States becoming, once again, the hope the free world. It was, of course, unpleasant for several right wing dictators who were used to the support of the United States government. But nobody felt sorry for them.
Shortly after his return to Texas, former president Bush was severely gored, in the crotch, by a longhorn bull.
Former attorney general, John Ashcroft, met my tortie cat with a bad attitude, and fell down four flights of marble stairs, breaking every bone in his body.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,Mickey191
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 12:59 AM

Sounds like a plan, a great one. AND....we have affordable meds, medicare strenghtened, improved interest rates & a chicken in every pot.


PS Yesterday the local supermkt. had a 6lb. rib roast on sale. Sixty Dollars. Have you ever???


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 01:08 AM

Hi Teribus

Yes I was born in the US, in an area Mission Hill, a section of Roxbury (home of the drive by), in the inner city of Boston.


"overly pessimistic picture". I haven't yet heard anything from this administartion that wasn't an outright lie, a twisted spin, an empty promise or a mistatement/misquote. I have no reason to believe a word about any of the excuses, reasons & causes. About the war, the enegry bill, the perposed change in Medi-Care, taxes, the enviorment. Everything is for the good of the masses, right, we're being raped & raked over the coals. Every time something is persented that is good for the common folk, it turns out that we're left out in the cold to eat crumbs & some mega company that's somehow has been in bed with this administartion at some point in time gets the lion's share of the windfall. Where suposed to swallow it all with out so much as a peek or be labled as a trador. I'm still waiting to be shocked by some one who really does something that'll be good for most, no strings or ties, just because it's the right thing to do. This is a game & a special few have the cards & no one's putting their cards on the table. So tell me how every thing improves, if this is the direction in which we're headed. At this point we the people have no say (please don't refer to the power of the vote), no power & no right to want a better USA. We do have the option to swallow what ever's being sent our way or crawling into a mouse hole. It may get better but I see no cause to believe it will.


As for the sky falling & that "the lunatic fringe have been predicting the end of the world". We're not poisioning our land, sea & skies? No, the sky isn't falling but Mother Nature's sure taking an awfull beating & she keeps begging us to get it right, as nature is known to do at times. She can't last it out if we're gonna constantly abuse her & beat her at the whipping post. She's losing all her safety stops, daily, bit by bit. No more fish, no more forest, no more animals in the wild. Since the 1800's, probably a lot more than a couple dozen species have become extinct. Yes, we're constantly improving our our habitat. What will we leave for future generations?
If you're not a little nervous, you should be.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 07:46 AM

Not so much "the sky is falling" as "the sea is rising"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 10:42 AM

Just to toss it into the mix and not to make any predictions:

Here in Idaho, a bastion of several sorts of conservatism, a state with NO Democratic Senators or Representatives that I'm aware of, where independent thinking is de rigor and government is unpopular, the local newspaper polled the readers about support for the Patriot Act this week.

58% against it, and the rate seems to be rising.

Just a call-in poll, interesting but insignificant overall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 02:23 PM

Ditto, what Barry said


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 03:01 PM

"Unless one would prefer Osama bin Laden, or someone else with like believings as their leader."

I laugh every time I see or hear this line of reasoning. It's the contemporary version of "Kill 'em all let god sort them out" (a prophecy of sorts attributed to the 101st in Vietnam, which appears to have come back to haunt them in Iraq, where Allah certainly is sorting out the 101st).

Ah DougR, can you present any reasonable thinking person with a scenario where Osama bin Laden, or Saddam Hussein, or a resurrected Ayatollah Khomeini perhaps, becomes leader of the very unfree (not to mention VERY expensive) capitalist spree world?

Via an election stolen by the brother of the "winning" candidate in the Banana Republic of Florida, and enforced by the judicial arm of government appointed for life by, among others, the candidates father and their cronies perhaps?

Now, a show of hands from those who think we'd really be any worse off being ruled by Hussein or bin Laden cartels, than we are by the Bush cartel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 03:55 PM

I definitely think we'd be worse off, but the likelihood of such an argument appearing in reality is so low as to put it right alongside the Bogey man as a risk.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 04:01 PM

Amos, you are a bloody genius at sussing out the obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 06:20 PM

Gee, thanks, I am sure.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 09:44 PM

All things considered, it is a nice place to live with lots of wonderful people. It has been all my life. I feel that it will continue to be in the future. Certainly lots of areas that could be better, but I have never been anywhere else that I couldn't say the same thing about.

From time to time, we have a change of leadership that sort of keeps some balance. I am in favor of that. I feel that even though I have lived through political periods that I don't share all the philosophies of the party in power, I am glad that we havwe this system that keeps either party from getting so corrupt that we would no longer have the freedoms we have now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 03:00 AM

Years ago, many thought the USA was on the verge of a race war. I felt then, as I do now, that if an inner-conflict ever comes, it will be a class war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 11:58 AM

And General Mills keeps cranking out next generation junk food while pseudo-celebrity doctors promote their latest fad diet to take off the pounds imposed by said junk food. "Prism" hair color will give way to string theory hues, moms will embrace peanut butter with no fat, no carbs, and no flavor, cars will get bigger or smaller depending on gas availability, interest rates will go down and up, personal debt will go up...in short, same old same old. Did you learn nothing from Sept.11th?


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 01:13 PM

If we can get to a place where the real issues are being addressed, this country might have a chance. If we can get off the level of ad hominem arguments and really look at the facts....that's a tall order.

First and foremost, what is terrorism and who are the terrorists?
The definition should expand to include every country in the world.
Every country.

To accuse anyone opposed to the Iraqi debacle as helping terrorists is another form of what used to be called Red-baiting in the McCarthy period. The ones that indulge in this atrocity are behaving like political terrorists.

I predict that if Bush remains in office, we will see repression unlike that of which we've never seen in the US. Corporate business interests are already out of control and their raison d'etre is the bottom line, not the social good. Public schools, environmental safeguards, civil liberties, the alleviation of class warfare, the elimination of election fraud are all being undermined by this current administration. If Bush is back in office, it could get worse.

So far, the Democrats are acting like they are skating on thin ice.
Kucinich is the only one really speaking out and is being ignored.
The others are compromisers who are worried about the votes and the public's appraisal. If get someone in to replace Bush, it will probably be a modification of the same policies.
There may be some substantive changes but not radical.

In the meantime, we live in times where free speech is in trouble so that the internet may be one of the last bastions of true democracy.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 03:42 PM

The sky will fall, and the US government will re-start the WPA, forcing all citizens to pick up the pieces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,LB
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 04:21 PM

Ten years - anybody's guess. Republicans will continue to control the House, Senate, and White House, because both republicans and religious people see things in terms of a particular belief system rather than intelligent thinking. And more and more, that is the way Americans think.

One hundred years: It is all a matter of world numbers. America will be a nation completely submissive to middle eastern nations, India, China. There will never be one world government because people have always and will always perfer to believe what church leaders tell them to believe rather than what science tells them as fact.

Ain't pretty, is it??


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 07:10 PM

Yeah, GUEST, the good ol' WPA... A CEO's dream... When labor gets desperate they'll do whatever they have to... Hmmmmm? We are now seeing the highest rate of bankruptcies in the history of the country... Hmmmm, part B.... Yep, just the way they've drawn it up on paper...

Gonna have us all abck in the cotton fields before we know it. But, hey, at the end of the day, we'll be driving home in bank owned (Who owns the banks, BObert?) SUV's???....

Bobert

Oh, BTW, the new system is drawn up to keep workers on the widget assembly lines until they drop, much like the horses did in "Animal Farm"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: DougR
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 11:40 PM

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhm pdq, don't realize you are stealing my thunder? The sky is falling belongs to ME! Grumble, grrr, grunt, groan!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 11:50 PM

OK, OK. You don't like it and Blobertz missed the joke completely. I not only retract what I said, I will deny under oath that I ever said It!


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 12:36 AM

If the Supreme Court rules that it is OK to excise parts of the world in which the actions of part of the US Govt (The Military) are beyond reach of the citizenry thru the Courts - then the future for the USA has already been documented in such useful pre-documentary sources as:

Judge Dread
Escape from New York


I am sure that other Mudcatters can contribute more references.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 03:07 AM

The US will not annex Syria as a new State of the Union, because then it would not be able to send Canadian citizens to Syria, to be tortured by proxy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 01:55 PM

Of course when the anticipated big asteroid arrives and we go the way of the dinosaurs, Chicken Little will have the last laugh, because the sky really will be falling...


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: jimmyt
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 03:54 PM

McGrath, If that,in fact, is going to happen, there is really not a hell of a lot talking about it will do anyway, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 04:21 PM

Unlike the case with the sea, which really is rising. Ten years could see some countries under water. But not the USA, it appears. But states such as Louisiana, Florida, North Carolina and Maryland could have pretty serious problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: jimmyt
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 04:43 PM

I hope that doesn't happen as I can now sketch a quick map or the US from memory, and I would hate to have to relearn the coastline with new borders


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 05:39 PM

Hey,
it might be cheaper for the US to sign the Kyoto Agreement than reform the Education System to teach kids to draw a different US Map...


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: jimmyt
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 07:27 PM

Hey Foolestroupe, I don't really follow the logic of that. It was in jest. However, I don't really think as a blanket statement Americans need any more help in world geography than any other group of people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 07:55 PM

Aw, JimmyT I was making jest too...

I can't think of any American I have met on Mudcat (or teh relative few I have met in real life) who is really as dumb as many US politicans seem to act - but then few Aussies are truly as dumb as our politicans seem to act...

Once parts of the US electorate start to submerge the US politicians will be the most vocal no doubt...

Not really jesting too hard though about my previous comments about excising parts of the USA - Australia is also trying to excise parts for various reasons - wait till the US prisons get excised from Court action, then get fully privatised.... then you can send me the cheque for our bet on whether it will happen... ;-O

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:28 PM

Bobert - 20 Nov 03 - 11:07 PM

Your statement of conviction:

"Bush created 9/11 for political gain in consolidated power."

Your question regarding the most significant reason for your statement above:

"Don't believe me? Then why is it the day after 9/11 the only plane flying over the US, other than military, was a Sauidi airliner picking up bin Laden's family memebers to carry them to safety in, ahhh, Saudi Arabia?"

I would have thought the answer to that one is so bloody obvious, Bobert, that the question doesn't even have to be asked. The answer to your question Bobert is as follows - For their safety.

Unless of course, you have incontravertible evidence that links those members of the Bin Laden family (other than Osama Bin Laden himself) to the Al-Qaeda attacks of the 11th September 2001.

You could, of course, be one of those who believe absolutely in guilt by association - if you are, and the importance you place on this flight seems to suggest that you are, don't bang on about abuse of rights.

Your promise:

"Answer me that one, Dougie, and I'll never mess with you again..."

My gut reaction - Oh yeah Bobert and pigs will fly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 02:10 PM

My first reaction to LadyJean's post of, 22 Nov 03 - 12:14 AM, was that she must live in Camberwick Green, or Trumpton. But then I read her opening sentence:

"Having just frozen my plump Presbyterian buns off handing out Dean literature, I offer the following."

Forming the conclusion that she must have been suffering from mild hypothermia to "offer" what followed.

"Howard Dean had two terms as president (8 years right?), during which he balanced the federal budget while making sure that federal income taxes were fair and equitable." Magic wand stuff that, those taxes you mentioned, who decided what was fair and equitable? to whom?

"He also guaranteed that every American had full health coverage, which lead to a boom in small businesses, which, as Dean predicted, created jobs." The link between health coverage and the boom in small businesses please? Unless, of course, they were small law firms specialising in malpractice suits. The American attitude of "Hell let's sue somebody" is one of the major things that paralyses your legal system, your medical set up, your insurance set up.

"Americans enjoyed genuine civil liberties," Aaaw, how nice, compared to the miserable tyranny under which you all live now.

"... while under the able direction of Secretary of Defense Wesley Clark, U.S. Troops exited a democratic Iraq, to focus on tracking down AlQuaida leaders. By May of 2007, the organization was essentially defunct." Well at this point your circulation must have been returning, your present government estimates that what you say will be done in Iraq in eight years can be achieved in a period of two to five years. On Al-Qaeda, I believe it may take longer - going after Bin Laden is not solely a military operation.

"Dean's insistance on inspecting cargo containers in U.S. ports stopped the last major attack, when they located the makings of a "dirty nuke" in the port of San Francisco, in 2005." Obviously a bit of a remission here. Your point of interception is too bloody late. Your current governments insistance that containers are checked prior to loading at point of departure makes much more sense - you should also, as a matter of course check them on landing, having first verified the bona fides of their delivery destinations while the containers were in transit.

"Dean's instance on a fair and equitable foreign policy, lead to the United States becoming, once again, the hope the free world." Again Aawfy nice hen, but fair and equitable to who? Counter to what you and others believe, the United States of America is recognised throughout the world as not only the hope of the free world, but the hope of those who live in countries who aspire to freedom.

"It was, of course, unpleasant for several right wing dictators who were used to the support of the United States government. But nobody felt sorry for them." Bet your ass that some of those not involved in the establishment of the fair and equitable foreign policy who also felt a bit let down would cosy up to them and give them some comfort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 03:06 PM

Teribus said:

"Counter to what you and others believe, the United States of America is recognised throughout the world as not only the hope of the free world, but the hope of those who live in countries who aspire to freedom."

No, Teribus, it is not. It was at one time but that time is long past. Now your statement consists of solely rhetoric, and should be left in the mouths of politicians, who say it even as they know that no one believes it any more. Very few Americans believe that any more. It's time for a new litany.

I can name many countries that are freer than the US, and offer more hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 05:47 PM

Hmmmmm, T, so on 9/11 19 Saudis hyjack 4 planes and use them as weapons. Right?

Then less than 24 hours later, with Bush still on Air Force One hidin' in the sky, his adminsitration gives permisssion for yet another Saudi pilot and plane to fly over the US when no one else could. And this was for bin Laden's relatives safety?

Is this your final answer?

A "yes" or "no" will do just fine....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 03:32 AM

Bobert - 25 Nov 03 - 05:47 PM

Yes.

GUEST,pdc - 25 Nov 03 - 03:06 PM

"I can name many countries that are freer than the US, and offer more hope."

Please do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 04:53 PM

Well, T, I'm real diappointed in yer Dick Tracy skills. Now, if I had been attacked by 19 Saudi thought to be connected to bin Laden, I think I would have not only *not* given them free passage but probably would have rounded them up for questioning... Why would Junior assume they had nothing to do with 9/11? And if you have answer to that one, how did he know so quickly (by 9/12) that they knew nothing?

Hope this doesn't twist yer thinkerator too much on the day before Thanksgiving but I feel these a re reasonable questions...

Plus, since Bush and Co. are sandbagging on releasing their records on 9/11, and since you seem to have so many answers, I guess yer the logical one to ask...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 06:20 PM

Bobert, did you not know that the Bush family and the bin Laden family have business connections going back decades? I'm sorry I don't have time to provide a link, but if you google both names, I'm sure you will come up with a good one.

Oil? Of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 10:05 PM

Sure am, pdc, and I've alluded to it many times in the past... I['m just wonderin' how T-Bird (Teribus) can so easily dismiss the behavior of the Bush administration in allowing one airliner, and only one airliner, airspace over the US less than 24 hours after the 9/11 attacks... This clearly points to Bush having some knowledge that the attacks were going to happen...

Yeah, I've tried to pin down T, and others, on this point but they are like liquid mercury... They just squrt on to some other diversion...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 04:51 AM

pdc:

"Bobert, did you not know that the Bush family and the bin Laden family have business connections going back decades?"

So? I am sure that both the Bush family and the bin Laden families individually have had business connections with many, many others going back decades - What does that signify - I'll tell you - Absolutely Nothing. It does however come in handy if you are trying to build a conspiracy theory based on 20 x 20 hindsight.

Bobert:

"I'm just wonderin' how T-Bird (Teribus) can so easily dismiss the behavior of the Bush administration in allowing one airliner, and only one airliner, airspace over the US less than 24 hours after the 9/11 attacks... This clearly points to Bush having some knowledge that the attacks were going to happen..."

You asked a question Bobert. What you got by way of an answer was a rational explanation (Or have you forgotten what happened to Lee Harvey Oswald, and he was in custody). Now reading the sentence of yours that I have quoted above. How on earth do you come to the conclusion you reach??? Where is your incontravertible evidence Bobert???

Also, please correct me if I am wrong in this Bobert, but Osama bin Laden has been exiled from Saudi Arabia, and stripped of his citizenship - Has this happened to any other members of his family?
Immediately after the Al-Qaeda attacks of September 11th, why stop at the bin Laden's Bobert, why weren't all those of Saudi descent rounded up? It's what was done after Pearl Harbour to those of Japanese descent living in America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 09:00 AM

Yeah, T-zer, that's my question, too. You seem to be answering my question by rephrasing the same question... No, it's not "incontravertible evidence" but when taken with many other apects of 9/11 that also fall into the "incontravertible evidence" category, it doessn't paint a pretty picture for the Bush administration. Throw in the *sandbagging* by Bush and his folks on releasing information pertinent to investigating 9/11 to try to prevent another from occuring and you have what any prosecutor would call "obstruction of justice". Add it all up and it don't take no Wes Ginny Slide rule to come up with a big "Hmmmmmmmmmm?"

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 11:22 AM

Bobert,

You have got no evidence at all - only extremely poor conjecture.

Let's go back to what you said:

""I'm just wonderin' how T-Bird (Teribus) can so easily dismiss the behavior of the Bush administration in allowing one airliner, and only one airliner, airspace over the US less than 24 hours after the 9/11 attacks... This clearly points to Bush having some knowledge that the attacks were going to happen..."

If what you say there is correct Bobert, and it was some dark, dire plot involving the current US administration to consolidate their power and for political gain. Wouldn't it have been more sensible to remove said bin Laden's discretely before the event, rather than fly them out in such a high profile way immediately after.

You completely discount the explanation of events that I offered. But I believe the reason I gave was a damn sight more rational than the one you detail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:45 PM

You know, Teribus and DougR are not on the same page at all- DougR , who is American, makes the statement in various ways recently that 'we' have a higher regard for politicians, per se, than is warranted. Teribus, who is not American, vigourously defends America's government, and pooh poohs any implication that this is a warmongering administration on a power trip.

Is it possible that DougR's bride has already influenced his thinking? Is it possible that Teribus's bride will do the same?


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:47 PM

""I can name many countries that are freer than the US, and offer more hope." "Please do."

If President FD Roosevelt's four freedoms is taken as a basis - freedom of speech and expression, freedom of worship, freedom from want, and freedom from fear - and account is taken, in that context, of such matters as welfare and universal medical provision, there are undoubtedly many countries which would score far higher than the present USA. Most European countries, for a start. And it seems likely that Roosevelt would agree with that assessment - therer's nothing anti-American in making it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:52 PM

And Canada as well, although I dread that we might be starting down the American road...


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:55 PM

Kevin,

With regard to your last post and in the context stated I wholeheartedly agree with you.

However that was not the context referred to by pdc which prompted my request.


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 01:33 PM

Hi Teribus,

You say "Also, please correct me if I am wrong in this Bobert, but Osama bin Laden has been exiled from Saudi Arabia, and stripped of his citizenship - Has this happened to any other members of his family?"

What is your evidence for this? Can you in fact prove it?

It's significant that some reports have indicated that prior to
Sept.11, approximately 10 months, the bin Laden family were shown
to have been with Osama at a wedding function.

Again, most of the reports we get on this are apocrophal so we
really are not privy to the real scoop.

It might well be that the Saudis know where bin Laden is. And how about this for a scenario. Bush may have a vested interest in keeping him alive so that he can continue his scare tactics with the
public. If people are afraid, they can be controlled.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 11:16 PM

Thank you, Frank. I'm not too sure why T-Bird doesn't get this. Is simple arithmatic yet T-zer keeps wanting to solve it with calculis...

Why would Bush allow the bin Laden's free passahe on 9?10, T? That would have implicated him even more than the free passage on 9/12, which unless yer danged brain dead, is a slam dunk in the implication department...

Face it, Bush and bin Laden were, and may still be, in cohoots.., You, my T'zer friend, have run out of alibis and mythology... Just admit it and we'll go on from here...

Your position is is undefendable...

But, hey, congrates on getting hitched....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 02:55 AM

Hi Frank,

In answer to your question, Google "Osama bin Laden Citizenship", extract from one article of many:

"In 1994 Saudi Arabia stripped bin Laden's citizenship, citing his opposition to the Saudi King and leadership and expelled him from the country."

The above referred only to Osama bin Laden, I do not believe that the above related to the entire bin Laden family. As you no doubt will not take the above as being evidence, or proof, I would advise you to contact the Saudi Embassy nearest you and ask them the same question.

However, Frank, you do tend to believe, and regard as significant, "...some articles" - As long as they support things that you would like to believe as being true.


Bobert,

I agree that 10th September 2001 would have been a poor selection of date, which is why you selected it as a date before 11th. But, you contend that Bush knew of the attacks before they happened, from what is known they took some time in the planning Bobert, how about arranging their "free passage" 24th January, 2001, on the pretext that they had to return to Saudi Arabia to attend the annual family Burns Supper.

I note that, as usual, you ignore point blank requests for any form of proof, evidence to back up any of the absolutely preposterous statements you sometimes come out with.

Which leads me on to an observation made by Ebbie:

"Teribus, who is not American, vigourously defends America's government, and pooh poohs any implication that this is a warmongering administration on a power trip."

What I do react to Ebbie, is people coming out with wild statements that are complete and utter tripe, offering no reasoning or proof, and who fully expect those statements to be taken as gospel.

Ebbie, I would like to ask you a simple question. It relates to the circumstances and reasons for the flight that Bobert places such emphasis upon. Honestly, which do you think is the more rational explanation for that flight taking place - Bobert's explanation, or my own?


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Subject: RE: BS: Any Predictions for the U.S.?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 09:48 AM

Mine! By far...

(Opps, it's not my turn...)

Are we gonna have to review the string of events yet again? These is a great body of evidence from the events that more than suggest that, if Bush didn't know anything, he should have... and that, knowloingly or not, his (Y's) reason (safety) for letting a Saudi airliner to fly into the US on 9/12 to retrive bin Ladnen's family was, at best, short sighted...

If this went before a jury, Junior would be busted.,..

Bobert


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