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BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing

DigiTrad:
BEST YEARS OF HER LIFE
DEATH OF JOHN KENNEDY
I SAW MY COUNTRY'S FLAG GO DOWN
I'M CALLED LITTLE CAROLINE
LEE HARVEY WAS A FRIEND OF MINE
LORD OF THE LAND
THAT WAS THE PRESIDENT AND THAT WAS THE MAN
THAT WAS THE PRESIDENT, THAT WAS THE MAN 2
THE BALLAD OF J. F. K.
THE BOY SALUTES


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Bobert 20 Nov 03 - 09:22 PM
Beer 20 Nov 03 - 10:01 PM
Beer 20 Nov 03 - 10:04 PM
Beer 20 Nov 03 - 10:10 PM
Ebbie 20 Nov 03 - 10:38 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 20 Nov 03 - 10:44 PM
DougR 20 Nov 03 - 10:51 PM
Mickey191 21 Nov 03 - 12:46 AM
artbrooks 21 Nov 03 - 07:40 AM
Bobert 21 Nov 03 - 08:35 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Nov 03 - 12:03 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 21 Nov 03 - 03:04 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 21 Nov 03 - 03:09 PM
Alaska Mike 21 Nov 03 - 03:46 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Nov 03 - 04:14 PM
Jim Dixon 21 Nov 03 - 04:31 PM
Jim Dixon 21 Nov 03 - 05:03 PM
TheBigPinkLad 21 Nov 03 - 05:15 PM
Bill D 21 Nov 03 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,ro1sin 21 Nov 03 - 05:26 PM
Amergin 21 Nov 03 - 05:39 PM
Ebbie 21 Nov 03 - 06:09 PM
Willie-O 21 Nov 03 - 06:42 PM
Mickey191 21 Nov 03 - 09:03 PM
Rapparee 21 Nov 03 - 09:58 PM
Sorcha 21 Nov 03 - 10:45 PM
Mickey191 21 Nov 03 - 10:56 PM
Metchosin 21 Nov 03 - 11:09 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 03 - 11:41 PM
Alaska Mike 21 Nov 03 - 11:59 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 22 Nov 03 - 02:21 AM
Rapparee 22 Nov 03 - 08:30 AM
Fred Miller 22 Nov 03 - 09:42 AM
Rapparee 22 Nov 03 - 10:02 AM
GUEST 22 Nov 03 - 10:50 AM
Little Robyn 22 Nov 03 - 03:24 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 03 - 03:31 PM
Bill D 22 Nov 03 - 05:24 PM
kendall 22 Nov 03 - 08:08 PM
Willie-O 22 Nov 03 - 08:34 PM
Bill D 22 Nov 03 - 10:32 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 22 Nov 03 - 11:54 PM
GUEST 23 Nov 03 - 01:16 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Nov 03 - 02:06 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Nov 03 - 02:22 PM
GUEST 23 Nov 03 - 02:32 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Nov 03 - 02:34 PM
GUEST 23 Nov 03 - 02:41 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Nov 03 - 02:45 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Nov 03 - 02:46 PM

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Subject: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 09:22 PM

Well, with the 40th anniversary of President Kennedy's assasination coming up, Sunday, what are folks thoughts?

Now my friend, Doug, thinks I am a cynic and perhaps I am but...

ahhhh, what was the motive of Lee Harvey Oswald and of...

Jack Ruby?

Plus, other than where you were at the time, any other thoughts...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Beer
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 10:01 PM

Back then religion was an issue. If memory servers me rightl, Kennedy was the first catholic President. I may be wrong. What was Oswald's religion? Was there a strong enough motivation in the name of religion? There seens to have been in manny other circumstances over thew globe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Beer
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 10:04 PM

Damm. I just read what I submitted. Is there no spell check in Mudcat??


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Beer
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 10:10 PM

Then Jack Ruby get's pissed off and shoots Lee Harvey. Jack being catholic.
All with God on our side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 10:38 PM

Kennedy, of course, was Catholic, our first Catholic president, although there had been Catholic candidates before. Oswald was not a religious man, I believe- he was sympathetic to the Soviet Union's brand of communism.

It seems like I remember Ruby was Catholic- though I don't remember where I got that idea.

Like most Americans, I think, I believe there is a good deal we don't know about the Oswald killing- how did Ruby carry a gun undetected, how did he get so close, what was his actual motivation, how much complicity was there in the sheriff's department. I'll never forget the look of surprise on Oswald's face as he was ahot.

My thoughts about Kennedy, 40 years later, is wondering just how different our history would be if he had lived out his term in office. It could be that we would never have been mired in Vietnam- without Vietnam our country and a whole generation of people would be very different.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 10:44 PM

Modern day American cynicism was born in the aftermath of the Kennedy assasination. The Warren Report represents the first time that the government fed the public a bunch of hooey that we were supposed to believe and most of us recognized it as hooey and didn't believe it. Fat lot of good it did. The Warren Report is still the government's final word on the subject though almost nobody believes it's the entire truth. If they'll lie about the murder of The President, what won't they lie about?

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: DougR
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 10:51 PM

President Kennedy promoted Capitalism. He represented, at the time, far more a conservative philosophy than a liberal one though he was elected as a Democrat. I think, had he lived, he would have been a great President.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Mickey191
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 12:46 AM

Oswald was married to a Russian born girl whom he met while studying Russia. Jack Ruby was a fellow well known to Dallas Plice as a Crime "buff." His nightclub had many cops as patrons & he was so well knownto them, he was allowed entrance without being frisked.   

Beer, I think the one thing you can safely rule out is a religous motivation. Ruby was painted as a great admirer of JFK & Jackie. He was portrayed as being in great distress over the JFK's death & simply wanted revenge.

I've always thought a possible motive, among others, was that JFK wanted to disallow the oil depletion allowance. That made many Texans see Red. If you get enough people together, each with their own reason to arrange a murder, it's possible to kill a president & cover it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 07:40 AM

Personally, and considering that there have been so many investigtions over the past 40 years, I don't see any real reason to think that Oswald wasn't acting alone. For those of you who are adicted to conspiracy theories, perhaps you would like to consider this one: the Soviets sent Oswald because the war that Kennedy had started in Vietnam was in danger of toppling their client state in Hanoi.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 08:35 AM

I've heard that *big* oil in Texas might have been behind it for Kennedy's regulations of the gas and oil industry but don't have any details... May GUEST will come along with a link... There is also a book that has come out written by an attorney that was involved that states this very same theory but, again, I don't have the info.

Yo, GUEST, dg, where are you?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 12:03 PM

In a sick way, it has become almost romantic to keep the notion of a conspiracy alive. It has also become a lucrative business for some. It makes it easier to deal with if we have a large organized "them" out there to point the finger at. IF there was going to be a conspiracy, there would have been a conspiracy to shift the blame on the communists, our biggest enemies at the time. Instead everyone from the Mafia to LBJ were suspected.

Face facts, Oswald was a nutcase but a nutcase with a keen mind and skills to pull this off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:04 PM

The problem, Ron, was the Warren report. It was a shameful piece of work to come out of a mature democracy, as bad as the UK's Widgery Report into Bloody Sunday, save only that (as far as we know) there was no deliberate intent to put the blame on entirely innocent parties. Add to that the sheer disgrace of the suspect being shot in police custody before he could stand trial, and the fact that his murderer in turn could not be kept alive long enough to go before a court, and it is hardly to be wondered that theories have abounded.

I'm not often caught agreeing with DougR, but I'd say his take on JFK is about right. With hindsight it seems that any progressive, non-conservative impetus came from Robert, though I didn't realise it at the time.

On Ebbie's point about Vietnam, it was JFK who put the US on course for that disaster. If Johnson had not had to inherit that legacy, which became his millstone, he might now be remembered as the best modern president (although I'd personally rank Ike quite high). Johnson certainly achieved much more on the domestic agenda than KEnnedy did, or looked like doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:09 PM

Just an afterthought Ron, but since you're asking us to face facts, there's little evidence that Oswald had a "keen mind," whatever that means, and none that he had the skill to fire off those shots with such accuracy within such a tight timeframe. The best weaponry experts and marksmen around have had great difficulty emulating Oswald's alleged achievement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:46 PM

Oswald had nothing to do with the assasination of Kennedy. He was set up as the patsy/fall guy. Enormous effort and skill has gone into creating the PBS series "The Men Who Shot Kennedy". The evidence is overwhelming. This was a coup 'd tat by government insiders. Don't say it can't happen here until you've seen the series. Our country has suffered irreparable harm from this incident. I hope someday the feds will tell us the real facts and let the true culprits be known and vilified. Then maybe our country can finally put it behind us. I watched the events happen on a black and white TV. Once again this anniversary comes around to stir up unpleasant memories in my mind.

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 04:14 PM

Oswald had the miltary training, the political training, and the opportunity. Oswald did it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assasination Anniversary Nearing
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 04:31 PM

I work on a college campus. Today one of my coworkers, chatting with two students who work in our office, asked them: What's the significance of tomorrow's date? Getting a blank look, he elaborated: It's the 40th anniversary of an important event in American history. November 22, 1963.

Not a clue. We started asking other students who passed by. We've asked 14 students so far, and only 3 knew the answer.

Granted, we're talking about something that happened 20 years or so before these kids were born. But if you had asked me, when I was a college student, what happened in October, 1929, (the nearest equivalent I can think of, based on my age) I think I would have known the answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 05:03 PM

Kennedy was Catholic. That made some people uncomfortable, because we had never had a Catholic president before. Some people—a small minority of bigoted Protestants, in my estimation—argued that a Catholic president would have a stronger allegiance to the pope than to the constitution, etc. But I think that issue was pretty well put to rest during Kennedy's campaign. I can't remember it ever being an issue once the election was over.

Oswald was an avowed Marxist, so I assume he believed as Marx did, that religion is the opiate of the masses. I don't know whether he was brought up in any religion. I think Marxism was something he discovered on his own; his mother didn't teach him to be a Marxist. (His father died before he was born.) I don't think an atheist would care to make much distinction between Catholic and Protestant.

Jack Ruby's original name was Jacob Rubenstein. I assume that means he was Jewish by heritage. I don't know if he was religious. His parents were immigrants from Poland.

I don't think religion had anything to do with the assassination, although Oswald's motives were never made clear. It's pretty clear that Ruby acted on impulse, and he was motivated by outrage and sympathy for the Kennedy family. He seemed surprised that he wasn't treated as a hero for killing Oswald. Conspiracy theorists might argue about this, as they argue about everything to do with the assassination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 05:15 PM

John Kennedy shot himself aided and abetted by the crew of Red Dwarf.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 05:16 PM

the investigation of the assassination was so bungled that we will likely never know for sure...letting Oswald anywhere NEAR a crowd was stupid beyond belief...

I have seen 3-4 programs purporting to 'prove' different theories...all compelling, from "how Oswald did it", to the "multiple gunman" to "government conspiracy" to "Mafia with Cuban help" to "international crime cartel with Russian agents"......add to this the destruction of x-rays and fight over JFKs body and censoring of information, and it's unlikely we'll ever *KNOW*....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST,ro1sin
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 05:26 PM

"Don't let it be forgot, that once there was a spot, for one brief shining moment that was known as Comelot."


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 05:39 PM

my question...who cares?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 06:09 PM

Add to that the sheer disgrace of the suspect being shot in police custody before he could stand trial, and the fact that his murderer in turn could not be kept alive long enough to go before a court, and it is hardly to be wondered that theories have abounded.

Fionn, Jack Ruby didn't die until 1967.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Willie-O
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 06:42 PM

There is tons of data and evidence. You should certainly be able to do a Phd dissertation on propaganda and misinformation by studying the literature on the Kennedy assassination. There is much obscured; your mileage may vary; lacking certainty, we are going to go with the chain of evidence most believable to each of us.

There is a lot of doubt to the assertion that Oswald was a real Marxist. Nothing in his background to it. He was in the Marines, at the height of the Cold War, got Russian language training there (highly irregular for an infantryman), talked openly about his alleged Commie beliefs, still was posted to highly classified bases--a U2 base in Japan. Then defected openly to the Soviet Union, but when he decided to come home, was never even debriefed by the U.S, let alone charged with treason. Au contraire, the U.S. lent him the fare.

Talking about a Russian conspiracy is the biggest nonsense. Don't you think this was seriously investigated in the political climate of the time? They had the least opportunity and motive of any of the various sponsors who have been suggested.

After he moved to Texas, he hung around, not with Commies, but with rightist White Russian emigres. When in New Orleans, summer 1963, he associated with anti-Castro types in person, but apparently started a one-man pro-Castro front group, managing to get himself in the papers and arrested for some pointless leafletting.

Then he went to Mexico, or didn't go to Mexico, or he and his doppelganger both went to Mexico and there are a bunch of American surveillance photos of someone who obviously isn't him, but was identified as him, outside the Cuban Embassy there...

The House Select Committee on Assassinations, in 1979, quietly concluded that there was a de facto conspiracy, because the evidence presented to them convinced them of at least four shots. The whole (very shaky) case of Oswald as lone gunman hangs on there being no more than three shots, and all from behind. The Zapruder film, the obvious bullshit of the Magic Bullet theory, the testimony of the doctors who treated Kennedy at Parkland, and the illegal (under Texas law) hijacking of the autopsy to a military-controlled setting, are strong indicators that the shooting was carried out from more than one location, and by persons strongly connected within the United States military/intelligence "community".

Don't give me any bullshit about "conspiracy addicts" unless you're prepared to debate point by point. Bullets make a little hole going in and a big one going out. The big hole was in the back of his head. There is NO debate on that last point. Lone gunman from the School Book Depository--that's the fantasy.

Like I said, if you look at the evidence, you're eventually so overwhelmed by the contradictions that you will go with what you find easiest to believe. I'm with Alaska Mike on this one.

Regards
Willie-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Mickey191
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 09:03 PM

Willie-O, Please, can you refresh my memory on the story which said that a bullet was found on his stretcher & purloined by some attendent? I've forgotten if it was a proven. The bullets which were recovered--were they proven to be from the same M.C. rifle? Thanks--this used to be a subject of great fascination--guess it still is. Amergin, you can't be serious!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 09:58 PM

At the time JFK was shot I was in the service, at Ft. Riley, Kansas, preparing to go home. I was deep in the theory of conspiracy for quite some time, assuming that it was a plot. But the more I read on the subject the more I was convinced that Oswald acted along. A trained marksman, shooting the president from a window high up and far distant, the Secret Service's worst nightmare.

Then I went to Dallas and visited the spot.

Folks, given the distances, etc. involved, *I* could have killed JFK. It would have taken no special training, no sniper school, just ordinary marksmanship of the type taught to everyone in the Armed Forces. Moreover, the rifle used was scoped. In short, the act of shooting was no big deal.

I only wish that Oswald had survived to tell his tale. I also wish that the autopsy hadn't been so badly handled, but it seems that all of the presidential autopsies have been badly handled. And I wish that they could locate JFK's brain, which was removed during the autopsy -- it could speak volumes about the wounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 10:45 PM

Still not sure just what I belive...lots of ambivilence here. But, shall we get into his 'private life' which was not allowed then, but is now? Marilyn Monre, had to have sex at least once a day or he had a 'headache'.....Secret Service agents led his babes into the White House swimming pool by the back door....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Mickey191
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 10:56 PM

Doesn't everybody get a "Horny Headache?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 11:09 PM

and I'm with you Willie-O, caught part of the interview on the CBC with the doctor who assisted in the OR on Kennedy. Bone fragments poking out from the back of his head, don't sound like an entry wounds to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 11:41 PM

Hmmmmm? I saw a pice on the tube this evening that pins the assasination on L.B.J.!?!?!?!?....

Motive: Yeah

Opportunity (from contacts); Yeah

Timing: Duhh....

Yeah, seams thet L.B.J. had some strong contacts with some pretty bad-ass guys down in Texas. An early acquaintence, Malcolm Wallece, was accused and *convicted* of killing one John Kinsa, who was supposedly sleeping with Lyndon's sister. L.B.J. spent the entitre 10 days of the trial in Austin workin' his contacts. Like I said, Wallace was convicted, but got a suspended sentence!!!! Hmmmmmm?

Then, it would appear that Clint Merkison, who owned 500 oil comapanies in Texas, was real pissed at Kennedy fir cuttting the "oil depletion allowance" costing Merkinson Millions... And so he put out the contract. Co-conspirators: J. Edgar Hoover, who JFK was trying to retire.... John Conally, who, though accidently shot, who was in cohoots with Texax oilmen.

Sems that May Newman, who worked over 20 years for the Merkison Family confirms that on the night of the assination their was major partying and hig fives at the Merkison home... Lots of folks eatin' cavier and downing champaigne.... Hmmmmm?

Then there is Madelien Brown who had a 20 year affair with L.B.J. who says that L.B.J. told her the moning of the assasination that the "Kennedys would not embarass him again.. Hmmmmm?

Well, this is just an overview of the story. Ive heard alot of stories but this one seems very believable since there are so many folks (who don't know one another) are tellin' 0he same story. Hmmmm?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 11:59 PM

There is no possible way for even the best sniper in the world to shoot from high up and behind the President's limousine and hit the man's forehead from the front so that it blows out a grapefruit size exit wound on the back of his skull? A lone gunman could not have done the shooting that occurred that day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 02:21 AM

I might be wrong, but I don't think the autopsy pictures show any wound to his forehead, just the back of his head and his throat. His skull was blown apart by the shot and the supposed wound at the front of his throat cannot be conculsively be called an entrance wound.   It is just as likely to have been made by a fragment of the bullet or bone.

5 stories is not exceptionally high for a rifle shot, especially from a a marksmen hitting target in an open limo.

There were several hundred people outside of the Book Depository, yet no one can conclusively say they saw anyone with a gun. Lots of conjecture and hysteria and nothing proven.

I guess we are a nation of paranoid skeptics.   It is easier to believe that there was a huge conspiracy involved than to believe a schmuck like Oswald could do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 08:30 AM

One thing I've never heard was what sort of bullets were used. THAT has an immense bearing on what sort of wounds are created. A fully jacketed would make "neater" entrance and exit wounds than a soft-point. The entry angle would also make a difference in the entrance wound.

But there's a good discussion of all aspects of the case here. Be advised that there are pictures which some might find disturbing, and some ideas you hold will be challenged (some of mine were).


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Fred Miller
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 09:42 AM

I hope one thing is clear. Oliver Stone sucks.

I don't know about the assassination in particular, but I think it's believable and necesary to see that events in the U.S. are sometimes shaped in disasterous ways by random men with half-baked ideas and absurd ambitions. Many of the worst things that happen might be motivated mostly by a blinding need just to do something. For confused people, opportunity is a motive.

The other factors aside, I think two men maybe like Oswald and Ruby could have acted alone this way, and the trail of stink follows to Jim Garrison, and Oliver Stone. It makes a kind of grotesque sense. Everyone acting in self-importance, at the expense of everything else.

   I tend to be skeptical of anyone could plot a conspiracy that could hold so tight so long, but I don't reject that some strokes of weird luck could help it. For example, I think it's possible another gunman could have stood right in plain sight and have been completely missed by a crowd--I only reject that it could be planned to happen that way. A good conspiracy theory would have to have flaws and co-incidence in it, things that seem unbelievable, to really make sense. Otherwise, a theory becomes itself a pristine bullet that never hit anything in this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 10:02 AM

And I was wrong. The ammunition used was 6.5mm x 52 ball, or military-type ammo. It was manufactured by Western, a division of Winchester, and was actually quite reliable. Better than 700 rounds, from the same lot number Oswald used, was fired as part of the JFK investigation and all of it went off, some as long a 13 years after manufacture. Well, that answers that question I had.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 10:50 AM

I'm not one for the Kennedy conspiracy theories, but I am firmly convinced that the interventions and "disappearance" of the forensic evidence from the hospital and the autopsy is more than a little suspicious.

There is only one type of evidence that could prove beyond reasonable doubt that there was a second shooter, who successfully shot Kennedy from the front, and that is the forensic evidence from the autopsy.

Being more in agreement with Fred Miller, than anyone else here so far, I'd also say it is entirely possible, and quite likely, that Oswald was working with a second shooter who hit Kennedy from the front (the grassy knoll theory, I suppose), which blew off the back of his head. That the evidence that would have showed that somehow (conveniently)"disappeared" after the autopsy, has always been a legitimate cause for suspicion. Either those involved in the autopsy, or higher ups after the autopsy, had to have been involved in the disappearance of that evidence which made the Warren Report a joke.

However, I think totally plausible that Oswald and the other shooter acted on their own, and that the disappearance of the forensic evidence from the autopsy was done in a pathetic attempt by the FBI and/or Secret Service, to cover up their agents spectacular failure to protect the president while riding in his motorcade that day. I mean, the assassination was a pretty colossal failure of security, and god knows J Edgar wasn't above fabricating and/or destroying evidence to suit his sick conspiracy theories.

The saddest thing about all this is that the context of the times is lost in this idiotic celebrity worshipping "Camelot" coverage, and conspiracy theory debates. As someone pointed out, there was plenty of paranoia about Kennedy becoming president, not the least of which did have plenty to do with him coming from the "enemy camp" in American politics (ie being Irish Catholic, not just Catholic) that had, until 1960, owned the executive branch of government. The WASP establishment hated the Kennedys then, and continue to hate them now (as do lots of Irish Catholics who find the whole "Kennedy mystique" thing to be utter bullshit). And as to the conspiracy theorists, why no mention of J Edgar Hoover, the biggest conspiracy theorist of them all from that era?

Those were paranoid, conspiratorial times, people. It was the time when the US, under JFK, slipped in the back door to Vietnam. The Cold War was at it's height, and the political left had been effectively silenced and jailed during the previous administration's watch as a result of the McCarthy and HUAC hearings. It was also an era of political assassination--now there is a conspiracy yet to be investigated, much less discussed in polite society. The Kennedys, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, Martin Luther King, the list of civil rights activists assassinated in this era is very, very long.

And just what is the common thread that runs through them all, beginning with JFK? Well, it sure as hell don't have nothing to do with Cuba, I can tell you that. But it does have everything to do with the civil rights legislation JFK was getting ready to push. Oh yeah--and the goods that RFK had accumulated on J Edgar must have been pretty interesting too...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Little Robyn
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 03:24 PM

NZ TV has just shown the Kevin Costner movie 'JFK'.
I don't know about the truth/lies that were spoken, but the interesting thing for me was the 'magic bullet' which went through several places on two people (having to swerve and turn back on itself) and then emerged almost undamaged, to prove it came from Oswald's gun?????
Yeah, right!
And the graphic footage of the last moments certainly show more than 3 shots.
It was about this time, 40 years ago, that the news reached me.
I could never understand why - until I saw last night's film.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 03:31 PM

Actually, the worst thing about Oliver Stone's laughable film "JFK" isn't the silly conspiracy theory stuff...it's Kevin Costner's attempt at a New Orleans accent.

Bad film, bad, bad film.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 05:24 PM

the TV piece Bobert refers to had LOTS of interviews that purport to show that autopsy photos were doctored to totally remove evidence of the exit wound in the back of the head that 20-30 people swore they saw, and OTHER witnesses who SAW the limosine being 'fixed' at Ford and the bullet hole in the front window conveniently disappearing...pretty compelling...yet, Oswald was running from the law and shot a policeman and had hidden a recently fired rifle in the depository. And tests have been done showing that a decent marksman 'could' have hit a head from that 6th floor..

I honestly suspect that there was stuff covered up, but barring some new 'confession', we will just all continue to speculate...Did LBJ 'allow' and help cover up all this?...maybe..*shrug*


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: kendall
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 08:08 PM

As a lifelong hunter and rifleman, I state emphatically that NO ONE can fire 3 rounds from a BOLT action rifle in 4 seconds and hit the side of a barn.
Furthermore, I have believed for years that Johnson was behind it. Him and his big oil buddies.
I've seen the film many times, and seen his head jerked backwards. Being shot from behind does not cause that. You can see his brains splattering out behind him.
What to look for in a case of murder,
Motive
opportunity
and who benefits most? two of the three fall on Johnson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Willie-O
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 08:34 PM

Especially with a bolt action rifle, isn't the first shot going to be the most accurate, when you're in a hurry like that? That's another piece of common sense that works against Oswald. His first shot completely missed--and he had time to aim that one. So whether it
was a hard shot or not, it just doesn't add up that the shots Oswald made were the only ones.

I've never looked much at the LBJ theory...but it was his state, and he obviously stood to benefit.

Without knowing anything more than that, I wouldn't go any farther than saying he's one of a long list of people that may not have been extremely unhappy with what transpired--and obviously a lot of people didn't do as much as they could have, or should have, to prevent the possibility of Kennedy being targetted when visiting a hostile state.

It's a pretty weird idea though, after all a U.S. vice president is someone who was selected by the president, eh? Then again what isn't weird in this story?

Remember the three tramps from the railroad yard? Marched through the plaza, questioned and released. No records of who they really were.
I've seen some pretty good photo comparisons (in A.J. Lieberman's book Coup d'Etat)--showing startling matches between two of the tramps and Watergate plumbers E. Howard Hunt and Frank whatsisname...
there's some food for thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 10:32 PM

*shrug*...I'm not a shooter, but I watched a film of an expert firing 3 shots at a car from the same distance and angle...from an exact copy of Oswald's rifle.. in 6 seconds*, and hitting his target on the 3rd shot, too, saying "..you sort of 'settle in' after the first 2 shots..".

*the claim was, that no precise time could be shown for the 1st shot, and that it was possible that it was a second or 2 earlier than the Warren Comission decided. (Kennedy was behind the tree/sign in the Zapruder film when he was hit first time)...I know, I know..if Oswald DID manage that, he was lucky beyond belief! (and the expert said that that type of rifle mis-fired regularly, and Oswald would ALSO be lucky he even got off the shots).....

(Just watched Nellie Connally saying she was sure the shots HAD come from the rear and that #2 had hit John Connally, disputing other claims that #2 had missed and hit a curb beyond the car) *shrug*...

You get enough experts assembling 'selected' evidence and you can 'prove' 4 conflicting theories at once!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 11:54 PM

You can get experts to prove that UFO's exist, ghosts walk among us, the Loch Ness Monster is real along with cousins Big Foot and Yeti, and that there was a consipiracy to kill JFK.   

The only real truth is that none of us know, and we are fooling ourselves to think that the goverment is holding information that will clear this up once and for all. There is no definitive evidence that proves that Oswald didn't do it. The only fact that we have to face is that a lot of people are making a living off of all these consipiracy theories.   We will never know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 01:16 PM

No, I think there is something pretty shocking about the JFK assassination at this very point in time: 70% (according to current polls) of Americans don't believe the official government explanation (ie the Warren Report) of what happened.

What if that same 70% didn't believe Dubya's explanations for going to war against Iraq? Things would be mighty different than they are now, I suspect.

Our institutions of government have no incentive for keeping these conspiracy theories going, so it does beg the question, why do they keep them going with official secrecy and silence?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:06 PM

I have to question what exactly we expect the government to be hiding. Short of a document that specifically states someone else did it, I don't think ANYTHING the government would release could possibly satisfy the conspiriacy crowd. In their minds, the evidence can only have one conclusion and there is nothing that will be accepted.

More than 70% of the American people believe that O.J. Simpson committed murder, yet there is LESS evidence in that case than there is that points to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Everyone has become an expert in the Kennedy assassination. People in this forum have stated emphatically how a head would explode when hit by bullet, how quickly the gun could be fired, how it would be nearly impossible to hit the target, yet no one hear has seen anything more than the media and the conspiracy cottage industry has doled out. For every theory and supposed proof that debunks Oswald as the shooter, there is also theory and proof that he could have fired the shots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:22 PM

Sorry, that was a bad mistake on my part. Thanks for the correction, Ebbie.

Rapaire, Bonar Menninger's book Mortal Error has just about the most exhaustive ballistics analysis yet published, and it has much detail about the missing/withheld forensic evidence and its significance. I must say I find the book's conclusion slightly loopy, but I know a couple of people who have followed the case closely over many years who think this the most plausible explanation.

Ron, military training doesn't make you a worldclass marksman. The book cited above reports how some of the best shots in the US faired in trying to emulate Oswald's feat. It seems that none can do it consistently, and Oswald was not in that league.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:32 PM

To suggest that American's opinions about the outcome of the OJ case can be reasonably equated to American's opinions about the official government explanations for the political assassination of the president...well, that says more about you Ron, than it does about those who remain interested in what is widely perceived by the American people as a government cover-up of a presidential assassination.

The OJ case is a rotten comparison--it is a celebrity murder case. To dismiss American's suspicion of a cover-up of the circumstances of a presidential assassination by intimating that we are all conspiracy theory nutcases, is mighty disingenuous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:34 PM

Fionn- I don't mean to say it was an easy shot that anyone could have made, but Oswald was above average and had a better chance of making the shot than you or I could have.

While everyone notes how difficult it would have been for Oswald to make the shot, no one seems to notice how difficult it would have been to make the fatal shot from the grassy knoll or some other location. Oswald, who had training, was alone(probably) in a room and had the time to plan his shots. Preparing for a similar shot from one of the other locations would have been nearly impossible. Oswald was seen in the building and he left the building with the excuse that he thought work was finished for the day. Did any of the other employees use the same excuse?   What would justify the rest of the actions that Oswald supposedly took immediately following the shooting?

Again, I am not saying that I am 100% sure that Oswald did not have help. Logically I think it is highly doubtful that he did, but the point I am trying to make here is that none of us are experts and it is just as easy to make a case that Oswald did it as it is to make a case that he didn't.   We've romanticised this tragedy and people have made careers debunking and selling their stories. That is probably the most tragic aspect of this whole case. Is it a search for the truth or a way to make a buck?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:41 PM

Considering that key autopsy and forensic evidence to make reasonable judgements about the assassination went missing, and only the government had control of that evidence, I'd say more people are interested in finding out the truth, than they are in helping a handful of opportunists make a buck--also a disingenuous assertion about those of us interested in the truth about some very serious events in an important era of our nation's political history.

You sure are one holier-than-thou SOB, Ron.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:45 PM

Sorry Guest, but you are missing my point. Attacking me from behind your shroud is not fair pool either.

I am not trying to dismiss America's suspiscion of the JFK shooting.   I am talking about public reaction to something people have little clues about. We believe what we want to believe and we believe what the media tells us. The consipiracy theories have been given plenty of airtime over the years. I can remember CBS reports on the Warren Commission back in the 60's. It sells commercials and books.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:46 PM

Thank you guest.


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