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BS: Lake Distict UK question

Steve Parkes 24 Nov 03 - 06:59 AM
muppett 24 Nov 03 - 07:54 AM
Mr Red 24 Nov 03 - 08:01 AM
Steve Parkes 24 Nov 03 - 08:19 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 03 - 08:26 AM
Snuffy 24 Nov 03 - 08:33 AM
greg stephens 24 Nov 03 - 08:35 AM
Snuffy 24 Nov 03 - 08:47 AM
Steve Parkes 24 Nov 03 - 09:23 AM
greg stephens 24 Nov 03 - 09:35 AM
Steve Parkes 24 Nov 03 - 09:46 AM
Geoff the Duck 24 Nov 03 - 09:53 AM
Pied Piper 24 Nov 03 - 10:01 AM
greg stephens 24 Nov 03 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 24 Nov 03 - 10:52 AM
greg stephens 24 Nov 03 - 11:21 AM
Dave Bryant 24 Nov 03 - 11:27 AM
Steve Parkes 24 Nov 03 - 11:52 AM
Santa 24 Nov 03 - 11:57 AM
greg stephens 24 Nov 03 - 12:12 PM
gnomad 24 Nov 03 - 12:54 PM
Emma B 24 Nov 03 - 07:17 PM
Steve Parkes 25 Nov 03 - 04:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Nov 03 - 04:43 AM
greg stephens 25 Nov 03 - 05:56 AM
greg stephens 25 Nov 03 - 06:17 AM
Grab 25 Nov 03 - 11:06 AM
Schantieman 25 Nov 03 - 01:38 PM
Mr Red 25 Nov 03 - 04:35 PM
Snuffy 25 Nov 03 - 06:44 PM
greg stephens 26 Nov 03 - 07:24 AM
Steve Parkes 26 Nov 03 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,noddy 29 Nov 03 - 08:03 AM
Liz the Squeak 30 Nov 03 - 05:10 AM
greg stephens 30 Nov 03 - 06:29 AM
Liz the Squeak 30 Nov 03 - 08:13 AM
okthen 30 Nov 03 - 08:18 AM
greg stephens 30 Nov 03 - 08:56 AM
Mr Happy 23 Jul 07 - 11:30 AM

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Subject: OK, I give up!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 06:59 AM

Q: How many lakes are there in the Lake District?
A: One ...

So how come Bassenthwaite Lake is a lake, when all the others are meres or waters (and the occasional tarn)?

Couldn't find anything sensible on Google, so I thought I'd ask the people who know everything. (And if you don't know, are there any songs about it?)

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: muppett
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 07:54 AM

There's Lake Windemere as well, but I don't know the answer to your question, I'd be interested to find out as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:01 AM

I haven't counted but <PEDANT = ON> at least one is a reservoir </PEDANT = OFF> and isn't one Wast Water?

I'll get my coat (& map).............


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Subject: And another thing ...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:19 AM

Since mere means lake/water (cognate with French mer and Dutch meer), "Lake Windermere" is a tautology; you wouldn't say "Lake Wast Water", would you? (And you're not confusing it with Lady Windermere of Fan fame?)

Another little complication, if you like: some of the waters are one word (e.g. Ullswater) and some are two (e.g. Rydal Water).

Not forgetting my original question, is this simply coincidence, due to acciental historical convention, or is there a significance?

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:26 AM

Quiet day at the office today Steve? *grin*


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:33 AM

And likewise only one Lake in Scotland, I believe


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:35 AM

Lake Windermere is a modern usage that particularly annoys pedants and oldtime Cumbrians: it ws invariably just Windermere till the tourist inustry stated kicking in.
    As ot why only one lake. Well, why not, I guess. The lake district has had a lot of linguistic input, from assorted Celrtic, English and Scandinavian invaders. The Scandinavians( chiefly Norse judging by the place name evidence) seem to have predominated, and their words wer e "water" for a big lake, "tarn" for a smallish one, and "dub" for a teensy little puddle."Mere" seems to have been the main English word for a sizable bit of water at the time placenames were being allocated. coinage, Whatever the lake word was in the original Cumbrian(Welsh), it doesnt seem to have survived, unless it changed to the more Angliciesd Lake of Bassentwaite: what is the Welsh for lake? Presumably something similar, it's Lough in Irish and Loch in Scottish Gaelic. It must be something simliar in Welsh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:47 AM

Llyn is the normal Welsh word for lake (Llyn Tegid = Bala Lake), but there may be another word related to loch/lough


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 09:23 AM

Is Welsh "llyn" related to Irish "lin"? (So "Dublin" would be "Black water", or "llyn ddu" in Welsh, or "loch dhu", maybe, in Scotland. Or would it have to be "dubh lough?) But don't let's get diverted!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 09:35 AM

I should have remembered llyn. there are a couple of lynnes in Scotland too, though most big bits of water there are lochs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 09:46 AM

Scotland has Loch Lynnhe, just to, er, muddy the waters!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 09:53 AM

Good place for tautology - Cumberland. My old school had a field centre at Torpenhow - i.e. Hill(Tor) hill(pen) hill(how).
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Pied Piper
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 10:01 AM

17 and a half.
PP


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 10:17 AM

Loch Linnhe is the more inland stretch of water which is called the Lynne of Lorne nearer the sea. And very fine boating territory it is tto!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 10:52 AM

Must have taken them ages to come up with the name 'The Lake District'


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 11:21 AM

For the folk music background to this thread, may I recommend a rather excellent CD of traditional local music, "A Trip to the Lakes" by the Boat Band. Available in many ways, but perhaps the easiest, and financially most remunerative to the Boat Band's ace guitarist, would be by means of a PM to
greg stephens


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 11:27 AM

River Avon is of course also tautology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 11:52 AM

I hear the received wisdom on Torpenhow is that it probably doesn't derive from "hill-hill-hill". Shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Santa
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 11:57 AM

OK Steve, what about Pendle Hill, then? Want to bet that doesn't derive from hill-hill-hill?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 12:12 PM

Actually, if you wander around and look at all the places with Pen in, you get the impression that Pen doesnt just mean hill. It means a particular type of hill. There's a distictive shape to them. (Though the Scottish and Irish Bens, interestingly, dont all have this shape: even though the word has the same root.
(written in Penkhull, on a hill of the classic shape above Stoke).


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: gnomad
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 12:54 PM

I wonder, if there had been more than one lake would it have meant calling the area the lakeS district?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 07:17 PM

There's Mere mere too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 04:17 AM

Penkridge, Staffs is named for the River Penk (not a hill!). Pendle ... yes, I can see how the last "hill" came about!

Can anybody remember the question? (Does anyone know the answer?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 04:43 AM

From Merriam Webster - Lake. a considerable inland body of standing water

So, by that definition, they are all lakes! The fact that they are not all called lakes should not really matter. After all, a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet and all that...;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 05:56 AM

Dont know about Penkridge in Staffs, I cant visualise the geographical features(though I've boated near there). But Penn and Penkhull, both Stafforshire villages, have the distictive "Pen" feature of the steep slope at the end of a ridge. And I know all about that, because I have to walk up the slope to get to my house.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 06:17 AM

The initial question in this thread posed the question(re lakes/meres. waters,tarns) "are there any songs about it?".
    Well there arent any songs explaining the difference between a lake and a tarn(that I know of) but I do know the following fiddle tunes.
Windermere Regatta.
Elterwater Hornpipe.
Elterwater Quickstep.
Ullswater Regatta.

Interestingly,the high fells do not feature in the titles of fiddle tunes.The fiddlers named the old tunes before the romantic view of landscape and tourism impinged on the natives(c 1840ish??), and Scafell and Skiddaw etc dont seem to have been things that inspired fiddlers. I know of only two traditional fiddle tunes from the lake district that are named for hills(Latrigg Side and Stybarrow Crag), and these are both attractive lowlying places by lakes, not mountains. But generally towns, villages and friends' names seem to feature far more in tune titles, rather than the postcard views we delight in nowadays.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Grab
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 11:06 AM

You won't find many Scottish mountains called "Ben whatever Highland" either. For something sensible, perhaps the area was named after a description of its primary features?

For the official reason, I can only quote Monty Python: "Bloody Vikings."

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Schantieman
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:38 PM

Ah, yes. The distinction is in the use of the capital L - there are seventeen lakes but only one Lake. See Hunter Davies's Good Guide to the Lakes. (I used this in a quiz for Scouts when we were camping at Great Tower (above Windermere) back in the Dark Ages sometime).

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 04:35 PM

Dave the gnome
I hate to be a pedant but what Bill Shake actually said (through Juliet) was

.... Capulets .... Motegues.... What's in a name - for that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet..... though more pedantic folks than I might tweek a wrod or two.

So - as to the original question - which one is not a lake but a reservoir?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 06:44 PM

Haweswater, Thirlmere ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 07:24 AM

Steve parkes, a few posts back, names Penkridge(village in Staffordshire) from the River Penk. Wrll. it is very tempting, an etymology like that, the riadge by the river Penk. However, it is not very likely. We have a Roman desciption of the camp called Pennocrucium, written c 100AD, long before any English people turned up in those parts saying "ridge". This must be from british(Welsh) "pen cruch" (modern Welsh Pen Crug). meaning apporoximately "head of the ridge" or "end of the hill". Similar to Gaelic Ben Cruach or Ben Cruachan. (Interesting to compare the majesty of Ben Cruachan, the massive ridge with its lofty snow capped summit with the rather more modest little ridge and its quiet Staffordshire landscape). Pennocrucium, by the way,the actual Roman fort,is on the A5(the Roman Road watling Street, where it crosses the River Penk and meets some other Roman roads).It is a couple of miles south of modern Penkridge,
    The confusion of the etymolgy is easy to understand, as the Anglicisation to Penkridge was completely logical: English "ridge" and british "cruch" and gaelic "cruach" all seem to have the same root. As does the good old Staffordshire dialect word "rook" meaning a pile: but now I am seriously digressing from the names pf bits of water in the lake district! that's Mudcat for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 11:52 AM

Looks like yo'm not wrong, Greg! So maybe the Penk was named for the place?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:03 AM

for the record   The Lake of Menteith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 05:10 AM

Once upon a time, I watched a programme about 2 little old ladies who, with nothing better to do with their time, travelled about the country with an Ordinance Survey map and some reference books on the origins of the English language with all it's influences. They were on a mission to discover why so many places had similar names. There findings were pretty convincing, although I've not been able to find anything else about them or their work.

They went to these similar sounding villages and discovered that the different words for hill, related to the different sort of hill that was a geographical feature of the area. I can't remember the exact findings but an example would be Pen = conical hill, Tor = single hill rising out of a plain, How = individual hill standing out from the landscape. So the name for the village would more often than not describe the surrounding countryside or some local landmark. I shudder to think how Shitterton (small village in Dorset) got it's name.

There is a hill in Cornwall that was named by 4 successive settling groups and it's name really does mean hill hill hill hill.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 06:29 AM

LTS: I dont think pen means conical hill. There are Pens and Bens of all shapes and sizes, but on my travels I think I've identified the Standard British Pen. It has a steep slope coming down from ridge (or longish flat summit). It very much isnt conical, or a stand alone type thing like the Wrekin. It may be be quite small and non-dramatic: it seems to me the distinguishing feature of a "pen" is not that it is an eminence, but that it is the end of something. Mind you, words change meaning over time, and over distance, so I'm not claiming all Pens are like this. Just a significant majority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 08:13 AM

Like I said, I can't remember the actual findings, I was just presenting an example of what could happen.

Am I the only one or has anyone else heard of this language/geographical study??





Didn't think so....

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: okthen
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 08:18 AM

Steve, the name Dublin is (for trivial pursuit purposes) usually translated as Blackpool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 08:56 AM

Liz the Squeak: if you find out, let me know. I'd love to read the book, see the programme. I've been putting in the miles with bands over the years keeping my eyes open for just this sort of thing, and I'd love to hear someone else's conclusions!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lake Distict UK question
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 11:30 AM

...............& its possible to pass more water there than most places in Britain!


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