Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?

Subject: RE: ROCKS OF BAWN - MEANING?
From: Joe_F
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 07:33 PM

How did "bawn" get attached to "marble" in Vermont? See "West Rutland Marble Bawn" in the Forum (not yet in the database). I can't find this in any dictionary.

Subject: RE: ROCKS OF BAWN - MEANING?
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:17 PM

That song 'West Rutland Marble Bawn' was based on the Rocks of Bawn it appears. The composer used 'bawn' as the Irish adjective 'bán'i.e. 'white'.

The marble bawn = The white marble.

The adjective follows the noun in Irish.

Just my opinion, can't see any other sense.

Subject: RE: ROCKS OF BAWN - MEANING?
From: GUEST,jeannie-
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:58 PM

just come back from holiday in Bawnboy - had drink or two in "the rocks of bawn" - wondered what the meaning was but the pub sign outside shows a horse ploughing a field

Subject: RE: ROCKS OF BAWN - MEANING?
From: mg
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 12:59 AM

nope it has to be clear day light to the dawn...please don't go changing the words to these songs. That is what makes them so great..little bits that don't make sense. mg

Subject: RE: ROCKS OF BAWN - MEANING?
From: GUEST,Guest: Tony O
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 04:32 PM

Just found this thread on a search for something else. It may be well late but here's my tuppence worth.

Farmers and farmhands did indeed have to "plough" the rocks from fields in certain (rocky) parts of the country to render them usable for agricultural purposes. See "The Field" (play by John B. Keane; movie starred Richard Harris) for a classic example of what can be achieved by "ploughing" the rocks of bawn - it actually involves a lot more digging than ploughing.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 02:24 AM

Sean Cannon used to sing it. He introduced it at its face value, that the fields were too rocky to make a living in.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 06:20 AM

A bawn was (is) also a type of defended farm:

What's a bawn?

So it would be fairly appropriate to find farms called 'Bawn' all over the North of Ireland, and would be the dwelling of a rich farmer of the other persuasion, just the kind to exploit the poor landless labourer, if someone else wasn't already doing so.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 10:50 AM

God, I love a good education. The more I come here the more of that I get. Thanks for the links, guys.         Tw

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Kiernan
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 07:42 AM

Some Back ground on the song "The Rocks of Bawn".

I write as a distant relation to the master in this song in the hope of shedding some light on the history of this famous ballad which has been distorted and watered down over the years.

John Sweeney grew up in famine times. He was born in a small cottage in Glan in the parish of Mullahoran Co Cavan near Granard town. At sixteen he was sent to work for neighbouring farmers. The wages back in those days were three pound a half year.

Sweeney secured himself a job with a woman called "The Widow Bawn Reilly" from the townland of Bawn also in the parish of Mullahoran. The widow of Bawn outlived three husbands in her day. She was enowned as a hard task master and expected poor Sweeney to plough the fields of Bawn renowned for the huge rocks which liberally covered the fields hence the name the Rocks of Bawn .
Those Rocks goes back to the ice age and peppered the fields like icebergs, most of them barely above the surface.

No wonder the poor man made up songs about it. John Sweeney could neither read nor write but regularly spoke in rhyme. A family called the Seerys of Crevy wrote down the songs for him. It is said that most of his songs were composed in Boylan's Forge in the townland of Cullaboy also in the parish of Mullahoran.

In those days the forge was the favourite meeting place for local people. Sweeney composed another famous ballad . "The Creevy Grey Mare".
The townland of Creevy lies in North Longford half a mile from Bawn. This ballad was written in the same style as The Rocks of Bawn and contains several local references. One line refers specifically to Boylan's Forge;

"God bless and protect Peter Boylan
my sock or my coulter he'd mend
for he was a boy that could shoe her
and leave her quite straight on her limbs."

The ballad relates to a mare which Sweeney obviously used to plough in the area. The socks and coulter refer to parts of the plough. He relates how his master brought the mare to the fair in Bunlahy, Granard and she was bought by "Reynolds the odd jobber" for the Queen's Army and its military needs.
Sweeney laments the loss of his mare and reflects on the torture she will suffer in battle.
"But if I was a horseman who rode her
of corn I'd give her her fill
and with my gun and bayonet
it's Ryenolds the auld jobber I'd kill."

He rounds off the ballad on a hopeful note –
"But if she comes back to Ireland
and lands on Erin's green shore
I'll send for my master to buy her
and I'll plough her in Creevy once more."
The Sweeney family descendants are living in Mullahoran to this day. Sweeney himself joined the British army along with his plough horses. It's uncertain whether he died or deserted. Some rumours said he went to live in America. One doggrel verse popular in the bars of new york many years ago contained a reference to Sweeney:

"There were charming maids from Cavan
as graceful as the fawn
and poor old gallant Sweeney
sang the Rocks of Bawn."

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: Brakn
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 08:50 AM

Very interesting! Thanks.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 09:44 AM

Very interesting Kiernan.

The song seems now definitely linked to Bawn (Bawnboy?) in County Cavan.

I heard Cathal McConnell saying this before, but I also heard other theories.

Interesting that it appears Sweeney was the man doing the ploughing -I had assumed that Sweeney was the employer in the song, who the ploughman starts off praising but ends up cursing. So the verses with Sweeney are reported speech where the singer is mimicking what the boss had been saying to him.

As for ploughing rocks, my interpretation would be that our man was hired to plough a 'field', but he is saying that there was nothing to plough in the field except roocks.

Apart from that I think it is pretty much what you see is what you get. There are many allegorical songs in the Irish tradition which refer in an oblique way to driving the English out of Ireland, but I don't think this is one of them.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 12:39 PM

Kiernan - Thanks for the note; it elucidates much about not only the song but the time, place, people, culture, etc. A pleasure to read!

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 12:55 PM

"Kiernan"'s story sounds like a wind-up to me.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 06 - 11:01 AM

Hey there everyone,

i just began searching for this song on the internet this morning as my Dad from Donegal mentioned that his father used to sing it to him when he was little and he has never heard it since. I thought i might have trouble finding it but im pleasantly surprised at the results so far. ive got it downloaded now and cant wait to give it to my Dad. Does anyone know when it was written? The ideas and stories of the meaning of the song are interesting to say the least.

Thanks for the info guys,

Louise Monaghan

Oh...u can email me at ([e-mail]) if u have any info that might be of help to me.

Subject: RE: ROCKS OF BAWN - MEANING?
From: GUEST,Berney Hill
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 12:43 PM

Definately a Cavan song to my mind. The use of language is typical of the area. Indeed the tradition of making up ill-fitting rhymes is still alive in the county.

The spelling and pronunciation of dudgeen derives from the local way of speaking Gaelic. The stress on the first syllable and the d is pronounced as a hard g whereas in the west its a soft g.

Remember that dawn refers to sunrise and not to daylight. It wouldnt be strange for ploughmen to be working from first light in those latitudes. Cavan is closer to the Artic circle than to the tropics hence the long delay between daylight and dawn.

The soil in the part of Cavan that Kiernan refers to (Mullaghhoran) is indeed rocky and stoney and local ploughboys became expert or had to quit. Drills for potatoes were still being ploughed with horses in the sixties in the area.

I can confirm the accuracy of all Kiernan's geographical and historical references and his claims are so far convincing. I will be in Ireland soon and hope to visit Bawn townland in Mullaghoran to see for myself.   

Bawnboy is in West Cavan and is referred to locally as Bawn but I have never heard that the song is about there.

Subject: RE: ROCKS OF BAWN - MEANING?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 12:59 AM

You may as well plough the rocks of Bawn as try to come up with one definitive meaning for the song, although there are some real beauties here. Thanks to all.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,kiernan
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM

"Now my socks are getting worn and my coulter is getting thin." Sweeney didn,t wear socks,but the plough did.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:59 PM

The rocks taken out of the rocky fields are the stones used to build the walls between the fields.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Ryan Edwards
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:02 PM

This is a super tune and is available on CD from a band called Footstick on their debut cd called Rivercrossing. Worth a listen!

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,scottie in mullaghhoran
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 11:09 AM

hey people just flicking through see some of your comments and inquiry's.. very intresting!! it is indeed rocky and wild pastures in this part of the country but no castles (bawns) as i see someone was commenting.. any way just a hello and slan from me... i may see at a later date if i have any replies.. thanks

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:04 AM

*

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,A Non-Irish (but nevertheless curious) Perso
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 04:29 PM

Greetings!

I just came upon this thread while googling "Rocks of Bawn". Personally, I became familiar with the song via Arcady's recording, and I too was interested in the meaning.

According to this website, the Rocks of Bawn were a symbol of the labour and workaday toil of the Irish:

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/vop/655.htm

(He seems to know what he's talking about, but I think that it's open to interpretation.)

Peace and good wishes

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 07:01 PM

I think about this song a lot when observing the fact that, each
Spring, the pastures here in Pennsylvania spring forth with a fresh
crop of sedimentary rock, seemingly out of nowhere. The more you
take out, the more seem to float up to the surface. And that's in
well-kept and lightly grazed pastures.

No wonder so many Pennsylvania farmers headed for the Great
Plains.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: Mickey191
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 08:01 PM

We've 2 threads running with same subject-anyone care to read my 7:45 post with an explanation of the lyrics see other thread. Thanks

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:47 PM

I keep hoping Joe Offer or a tech expert will figure out a way to stop those intrusions as above (10:14).

Here in southern New England where the frost pushes a new crop of rocks to the surface every season, when we go out to garden or plant, we refer to it as 'digging potatoes' as we fetch out many fist-sized chunks of granite and gneiss, often rounded by water, with each spade full.

Besides 'white' and 'flat land' the word ban [bhan, bawn, all its myriad spellings] has a general meaning along the lines of 'blank' hence without color (white as a color, or blonde or fair (pale) about a person), or without feature (land or paper), or without covering.
One of the things I love about Irish, like English, is the variety of ways a word can have one general idea and then be applied in such varied ways it seems to acquire multiple unrelated meanings, which are actually related in a larger sense.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Aaron K Donnelly
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 01:55 PM

The poet who wrote the Rocks of Bawn was Patrick Kelly. i think to know what the meanings of bawn or ban, you would have to know the history behind the man Patrick Kelly, who was from Cashel, Connemara.

The area where he lived was very barren land and very hard to on. However, he also was a republican. So his reference to the land might be a reference to the land of Ireland.

In the first verse he says "Come all ye loyal heroes and listen on to me. Don't hire with any farmer till you know what your work will be".

I dont think he is just talking about farming but I feel it's a reference to the britsh army and saying to the Irish people instead to concentrate on working towards Ireland's freedom.

In the last verse the actual words are "I wish the Sergeant-Major would send for me in time, And place me in some regiment all in my youth and prime, I'd fight for Ireland's glory now, from the clear daylight till dawn, Before I would return again to plough the Rocks of Bawn."

In this last verse, I think he refers to Sweeney who he cursed for staying in and not ploughing the field. I think Sweeney is a metaphor for young Irish men. Then refers to himself saying he would fight for Ireland from the clear daylight till dawn.
The words are Sergeant Major not the Queen, the old IRB had sergeant majors and other military positions.

So in conclusion, I think Patrick Kelly was talking about the freedom of Ireland. And the Rocks of Bawn a metaphor for Ireland. What do you think? Does anyone agree with me?

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

The words are Sergeant Major not the Queen, the old IRB had sergeant majors and other military positions.

The IRB was a secret society, organised in a cell structure. The idea of "regiment" and "sergeant-major" would have been totally alien.

Regards

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 05:06 PM

Found some interesting background on the Patrick Kelly connection:

Click here

Regards

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: Brakn
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 02:46 AM

Not the best and maybe not the worst - click here for my version on MySpace.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Aaron K Donnelly
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 11:26 AM

the IRB was not a secret society, however they never announced their membership due to British rule in Ireland at that time.The positions such as sargent would not have been allien to Patrick kelly for he was an educated man and a teacher in kilceron conemara.To write poems at this time about freeing Ireland in a hidden manner was not unusual, for w.b. yeats wrote   "no second troy" which is about freeing Ireland. To any other reader it would seem yeats was talking about a women he loved. Austin Clarke wrote the lost heifer refering to ireland.
check it out
http://www.poetryconnection.net/poets/Austin_Clarke/19554   

thanks
aaron

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,k donnelly
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 11:38 AM

sorry check this sit out about w.b.Yeats
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~splash/NST.html

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 12:21 PM

Aaron K Donelly suggests Patrick Kelly's original poem was a clandestine piece of Irish nationalism, and the true meaning had to be hidden because of the attitude of the British government.Donelly explains:" To write poems at this time about freeing Ireland in a hidden manner was not unusual".
Now, this would be convincing, were it not for the fact that we see the original poem in Kelly's book contains the line

"For Ireland will be free".

Not so very well hidden, really!

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

Yes, however we are talking about the lyrics for the song which could have been writen before this poem was published. We do know that the poem was published in 1977. We can also say that he was young man when he wrote this poem "all in my youth and prime". Also knowing that he lived from 1879-1940.

http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiROCKBANN.html

I know the poem that was published does say "For Ireland will be free". however, i think this backs up my original meaning of the words.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 12:42 PM

Sorry, GUESTAaron, but you're quite wrong about the Fenians.

There are indeed, lots of allegorical songs about Ireland (though, I suspect, not as many as is sometimes thought!). It's just that I find it very hard to believe that The Rocks of Bawn is one of them.

Regards

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,aaron k donnelly
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM

MartinRyan
i dont think im wrong about the Fenians maybe my education has decived me.
on another note its a good song!!
regards
aaron

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: Declan
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 08:19 PM

AAron,

I have to say I agree with Martin on this one.

As for the IRB not being a secret organisation, I think you'd need to back that assertion up with some proof. Most things I've read about the organisation say that they were organised in cells of 10 people or less around a 'centre'. The idea being that no one person knew more than 9 other people so informers could not infiltrate more than a small portion of the organisation.

While it mightn't seem as romantic as your notion, I think the poet was saying that even fighting a war would be preferable to having to Plough the rocks. If so the ploughing must have been tough!

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 10:21 PM

I love the fact that this particular poem/song (in whatever version it is) has caused so much discussion to have been 'going around the table until all hours of the night' (basically since the early 1960's).

I would point out that the poem was origianlly published in March 1941, when family/friends published Mr. Kelly's work in "The Salley Ring". It is also possible that it is in the book "Ballads".

Mary

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 10:29 PM

Another thought, in reply to Greg Stephens:
Patrick Kelly had no intention of any of us reading his work when he wrote the poems. He didn't think his work was interesting to 'city folk'. For him to use the phrase 'For Ireland will be free', would not be interpreted (sp) as being obviously nationalistic, since he wasn't planning on this kind of publicity.

Mary

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Flavio from Buenos Aires
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:22 AM

Hello, I'm trayin to find out if the song Rock of Bawn talk about a some real fact, I'm not find nathing in historical Irish sites. But I find diferents letters (lyrics I think?)....why?

Thank's any data

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:38 AM

I was looking for the lyrics of that song and got to this recording at :

http://www.stumbleaudio.com/#patfloodyfriends/4

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Micheal
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:41 AM

Haven't read all the thread, but has anyone mentioned the Dominic Behan recording? I had this in the 60's, but it's gone the way of all 78's......
    Slainte,
          Micheal OhAodha

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: Frank_Finn
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:35 PM

I always thought that the line
"Oh my shoes they are well worn and my stockings they are thin"

referred to the shoes and socks of the narrator, but lately a person told me that it refers to parts of a plough. Does anyone else agree with this?

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,j o'reilly
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:22 PM

i have family who live on the farm were the rocks of bawn are . There is a mass held there every year . its in pottle bawn lane in mulahoran my aunt is married to the man who owns the land which in the family name of cook.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,rocks of bawn
Date: 26 May 09 - 05:53 AM

A modern interpritation of a classic song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFGVy44sePw

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,mick f
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 09:33 AM

look up the word BAWN and you will have your answer !

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 09:49 AM

is it not allegorical,although horse ploughing is obsolete,we are still ploughing our own particular rocks,and battling with the hopelessness of life.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,Guest Kiernan Update
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:51 PM

I heard a man called Jimmy Dunne (Mullaghoran Co cavan) Sing 26 verses of this song in Bradys Pub Dundevan Kilcogy Co Cavan- A few miles from the Rocks of Bawn farm in the early 1970/71.
Sadly Jimmy has passed away and I did not write the verses down.
In the song when Sweeney says "come on you loyal heroes" he is referring to the horses,AS I mentioned earlier the widow Bawn was married three times and two of her husbands were killed ploughing the Rocks of Bawn by the plough springing up forcefully as it hits a rock . Hence as it says in the song -it was more dangerous to plough than to join the British army.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:16 AM

it would be nice to piece together the original words to this.Its obviously allegorical but unconsciously so like many others,and another fine product of the tradition. it has achieved an epic & iconic status chiefly thru Joe Heaney.The mixed up words are just the equivalent of archaeological layers.Dominic Behan has Patrick Sarsfield instead of the sergeant major which sounds like a bit of political correcting.It probably was Queen Victoria but it sounded uncool.It does sound Ulster to me.It may have been pentatonic originally and sounds even a bit Scottish.What an amazing discussion.Erudition and piss taking,both appreciated.

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: GUEST,guest marco
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:32 PM

Always loved this song in any of it's incarnations...think that it's universality springs from the admonition to young folks to consider how to balance working for "good pay" with finding their own voice/vocation...of course the same applies to a man who should consider that working (ind1scriminately)for a master is just the equivalent of "working to keep working" which means that you are giving your life to a cause not your own...think that the ideas of the Irish being called to join revolutionary forces rather than the Queen's army seem valid, though I haven't really heard a version which is clearly analogous, in that respect...the various historical references are great ...thanks so much

Subject: RE: Rocks of Bawn - Meaning?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 07:46 PM

Since the clear meaning of ploughing the Rocks of Baun being a pretty hopeless task, it'd be very strange and defeatist for it to have been used in reference to the struggle for independence.