PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 03:44 PM

Am I the only one who finds it strange that many of us who are aware what sessions are and are not - seem to accept that unpaid participatory sessions have always been public entertainment that required a PEL but somehow 'got away with it' and that sessions are and have been an illegal activity without this?

Some folk believe this largely because some legal officers of some local authorities use an untested legal interpretation to bully us and licencees with. One that it has become clear that Central Government and the majority of objective legal experts do not share. This especially with the fairly recent advent of the freedom of expression given to us under the Human Rights Act.

The old Licensing Act was passed in the 60s and the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions Act) in 1984 to deal with Public Entertainment only. Law that is designed for motorbikes can be correctly used against motorbikes but it is quite wrong to claim this legislation can be used against bicycles. It is just as bad - by using selective evidence - for these officers to try and turn bicycles into motorbikes, for that is what we are currently allowing these authorities to do. Piano singalongs in pubs were not considered as public entertainment before or after this legislation and nor were sessions until a few local authorities started to cause problems for them with silly enforcement actions only fairly recently.

What those who do really accept the illegality of sessions without PELs should do is to start taking action against these authorities for placing them and us all at risk by not correctly enforcing this legislation for all the years it has been in force.........

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 06:31 AM

Tis the season of goodwill my friends - and there is no at all point in trading insults with the 'Guests' Of Christmas Past, Present or Future.............

Terry Redmond writes on uk.music.folk that he was informed by The Times that this story was not referencing the Licencing Act , but the proposed Charities Bill.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:48 PM

And, Guest, if you can't deal with the facts, invent something that was not said, and discredit (or try to) that in stead.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 02:17 PM

Bridge - I agree about clampers. I'm pissed off with freeloading toe rags like you who think they have a right to park on the bay that I pay rent for. Crush their vehicles.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 11:23 AM

More details of the local situation on this thread New Star session RIP PELs

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 11:17 AM

Talking of councils and accepting that may you always know where to find them. Given that fact - it has still taken me (with a lot of help from many of you) - 3 years to get the employed officers to finally allow the elected members of my council - (as the Licensing Authority) to meet and make a decision of what interpretation of the word 'performer' they wish to operate under the last days of S182 of the (old) Licensing Act.

It still remains to be seen if the members will be prepared to vote for a change from the current broad catch-all interpretation to the narrow interpretation that will enable unpaid sessions without a PEL - as the new advice from the legal officers to the members is rather unlikely to change.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: GUEST,been around too long
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 10:22 AM

Carol EL. "The most farcical change is that you now have to get a licence if you hold a wholly private gathering to sing carols for fundraising in a private house amongst people already known to each other. Before you say "no change", check the facts.


NO YOU DON'T!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 06:22 AM

At least you know where a Council can't just vanish in the night. You know where they live.

At present if a house is on the market every person who might consider buying it has to pay for a survey. Any person looking for a house has to pay a survey for any house they might consider buying. Seems a daft system to me. It oughtn't to be beyond the ingenuity of intelligent legislators and intelligent lawyers to work out a better system, in which a survey was carried out on every house put on the market, the cost to be recovered from the proceeds of the eventual sale, and with very severe penalties for any bent or incompetant surveyor.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 05:42 AM

Carol EL. The most farcical change is that you now have to get a licence if you hold a wholly private gathering to sing carols for fundraising in a private house amongst people already known to each other. Before you say "no change", check the facts.

Sellers pack. Have you ever tried suing a surveyor? I have. And I'm a lawyer but I never do conveyancing, so I have no vested interes, but I used to when I was younger (articled to one of the great legends in conveyancing, did the conveyancing for some famous judges and legal authors who wrote about land law) so I know what I'm talking about. Not all lawyers are con artists, although many of the slugs that came out of the woodwork after the Thatcherite glorification of greed and selfishness are. I've been a partner in big city lawfirms too, so I know that too. Many small lawyers are still there to do good for their clients and to get them justice etc. Been there, done that, too.

And just what do you do if you have to sell up to clear debts? At present you can do a deal with the surveyor to pay him when the deal goes through (with a longstop date), or have a cheap survey, or go rented. Under the new system you'll have to borrow to get the survey, and we all know how easy it is to borrow from banks when they are calling your overdraft at the time. I've had to contemplate all these too.

The problems with UK conveyancing are caused by the idiots who want something for nothing and stampede to the cut-price conveyancers who leave a skilled job to secretaries and hope their insurance cover holds. Have you ever tried dealing with a "licensed conveyancer" who has no idea of the law he is trying to apply? Again, I have.

Before you indulge your prejudices, try to find out some facts first.

The sellers pack is just another cynical politician's ploy to try to get popular by attacking a soft target. It will cause far more problems than it solves.

Car Clampers: the leading case about car clamping (Vine -v- Waltham)centred on the illegal clamping of a car by Waltham Forest council. I've had to row with them about parking fines (not mine) before, and again I have real experience of their attitude.   Have all clamping done by a council? Hope a Council will apologise when it gets it wrong? Which planet are you from?

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 12:32 PM

The "sellers pack" strikes me as a good idea. There's no reason why a survey paid for by the house owner should be any less reliable than one paid for by the prospective buyers. What difference does it make to the professional doing the survey who is paying for it? After all, if they could be demonstrated to have done a phony survey the roof would fall in on them.

As for clamping the wheel clampers, high time. In fact I'd be all for abolishing the whole privatised wheel clamping operation. If vehicles need clamping, it should be the council that does it, and has to own up when they get it wrong. And if there's any profit, it helps pay for public services. rather than line the pockets of some wide-boy with a van and a few wheel clamps.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: ET
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 11:19 AM

I don't think I am saying that all regulation is bad, just that most de regulation ends up being extra regulation because you need officialdom to check that both new regulations and de regulations are working.

Its somehow the sum of the whole that gets me - count up in life how much you have to register or notify or have a license for - from birth to death its a hell of a lot.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: GUEST,Been around too long
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 09:41 AM

Grab - your right as I said before things haven't changed since the 60's - we apply every year to go carol singing - both in static outside venues and door to door - 2 applications one to sing/entertain in a public place and one to make a collection!

The main changes that affect "folkies" is the removal of the "Two in a Bar" rule sessions etc... haven't changed the Landlord always should have had a license - they just got away without having one (or most did)

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: Grab
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 08:58 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we already technically need a license to go carol singing, under the current system? This is a rule which never gets followed up for general door-to-door stuff bcos it isn't worth it, but I don't think this is a change from current rules. So the Sally Army and other large organised carol-sings wouldn't get stopped, because they'll be following the existing rules already, and when the new rules come in then it won't make a whole lot of difference. (I may be wrong though, I'm just working off my memory of reading info from a charity about this, the last time the PEL stuff came around. Shambles, you'll presumably know more. I can dig out the link to the Oxfam site about this if I need to.) So yes, Frean is a crap journalist.

About the thread creep:

1) The "security industry" has historically been run by thugs and criminals. "Security" who are the source of the problem should rightly be banned. There are many local schemes to do this; a national scheme sounds like a good plan.

2) Ditto car clampers. From the BBC website, a car-clamping company in Yorkshire clamped a car with someone asleep in it, and clamped a pregnant woman's car so she had to walk several miles to a cash-point and back to get the money to pay them.

3) Seller's packs. Scotland already works this way, and that's shown it to be the most equitable way to sell a house. Re not trusting the seller's pack, if the surveyor doesn't do his job then he gets sued. The problem now is that the buyer can put a thousand pounds or more into surveys and lawyer's fees, and the seller then decides they're not going to move after all, or the seller's chain falls through, or whatever. With a seller's pack, the survey gets done *once*, and all buyers refers to that. Overall, moving house will get *cheaper* because less surveys need to be done. Remember that if you're selling your house, you will nearly always be buying another one, so RB and the Law Society are talking through their hats. (The lawyers have a vested interest in getting money out of house sales. I don't know what RB's vested interest is.)

In general, if you're doing something which'll cause a public nuisance, it ain't too bad an idea to have some kind of rules in place to stop idiots screwing everyone else over, is it?

Graham.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 07:28 AM

When you look at the Parlimentary programme for this term - these are all issues that the new leader of the opposition would have readily supported - when he and his party were in power and he now finds himself opposing them!

How did it all come to this?

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: GUEST,Been around too long
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 07:35 PM

Doh! we had to apply for permission in the 60's to carol sing and collect door to door, what changes????????

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 05:37 PM

All I can say is that Ms Frean must be a bloody crap journalist if she didn't spot this until now.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 01:01 PM

Thread creep - and the deraded "sellers pack" too.

If you want to sell your house you have to get a survey done to give to the buyer. You, of course, have to pay for it. And how much will buyers trust it?

So, what if you are down on your luck and have to sell your house to clear your bank overdraft? Where do you get the money from?

The Law Society is warning that it will make house buying and selling more expensive. Take it from me. This time they are right.

I think Blair has flipped.

Bad, eh, USA ruled by a moron, UK by a maniac.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:34 PM

It was just a link to the story - I tried it just now and it worked fine for me but the words are in the first post of this thread anyway.

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 07:32 AM

Very succinct link Shambles. When I clicked it, it simply said "FORBIDDEN". Too true!

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 06:28 AM

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-909993,00.html

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: Bassic
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 05:13 AM

Eric, is it a coincidence that the Prime ministers constituancy is in the part of the world where those pipes are particularly popular? If Gordon Brown should succeed him would the resulting "modulation" encourage the playing of GHP`s!! Has someone told the tories about this opportunity for scare mongering when the next election comes :-)

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: ET
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 04:45 AM

Incidentally the Government is now regulating the security industry and is starting with licensing door supervisiors in pubs. It goes on to wheel clampers etc. Much of this is good news I suppose but you will need a license to breath eventually.

Maybe David Blunckets new id card will be a chip embedded under the skin containing everything you are licensed to do. If you do something not authorised like playing an instrument in unlicensed premises the chip could send out an electronic signal changing your music to the home key of Northumberland Pipes F# and a bit, and notify the local authority at the same time.

Hey I think I have had a good idea. I'll get out my home electronics kit and start work, and submit a patent application at the same time!

Subject: RE: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: ET
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 04:05 AM

The Government seems to have a passion for pretending to de regulate and doing the opposite - usually by notification to the local authority. Real big brother stuff.

Most of the outrage of this and all the other welter of licensing regulation will come out when the nonesense is enforced..can you imagine arresting and prosecuting the local salvation army band for performing entertainment without a licence and collecting without notification to the local authority!

Subject: PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 02:59 AM

Here's an article from "The Times" dated 27 November:

May we sing a carol, please?
By Alexandra Frean, Social Affairs Correspondent



IT MAY be the season of festive cheer, but for carol singers it could soon be a pretty bleak midwinter.
Under proposals outlined in the Queen's Speech, people taking to the streets with hymn books and collecting tins will have to inform their local authority, even if the singing is "conducted amongst people who know each other". The proposals would also apply to people collecting goods for church bazaars and those involved in one-off fundraising in pubs.

The Bill ostensibly aims to lighten the regulatory load on small fundraising events by reducing the number of organisations required to obtain a licence for collecting money. But the proposals, outlined in a consultation paper that will feed into the Bill, may have the opposite effect. Carol singing in places such as shopping malls already needs a licence, but the new rules would apply blanket regulations to all types of carol singing, even among people who know each other and for the benefit of a cause that they are all familiar with.

Carol singing has its origins in the canticles sung to accompany Nativity plays in the 13th century.

The songs were adopted and popularised by travelling singers or minstrels, who would change the words for the local people wherever they were travelling.