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BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke

akenaton 28 Nov 03 - 02:53 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Nov 03 - 05:15 AM
Fiolar 29 Nov 03 - 05:48 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Nov 03 - 06:24 AM
ard mhacha 29 Nov 03 - 08:03 AM
Dave Hanson 29 Nov 03 - 08:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Nov 03 - 10:34 AM
Strupag 29 Nov 03 - 10:50 AM
Big Mick 29 Nov 03 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Mr Bumble 29 Nov 03 - 12:53 PM
ard mhacha 29 Nov 03 - 02:35 PM
akenaton 29 Nov 03 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Jim 29 Nov 03 - 04:29 PM
Gareth 29 Nov 03 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,Boab 30 Nov 03 - 01:17 AM
GUEST 30 Nov 03 - 11:53 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 30 Nov 03 - 12:05 PM
ard mhacha 30 Nov 03 - 01:49 PM
boglion 30 Nov 03 - 02:17 PM
weerover 30 Nov 03 - 02:48 PM
akenaton 30 Nov 03 - 05:20 PM
Coyote Breath 01 Dec 03 - 12:35 AM
ard mhacha 01 Dec 03 - 03:39 AM
John MacKenzie 01 Dec 03 - 04:40 AM
ard mhacha 01 Dec 03 - 05:25 AM
Fiolar 01 Dec 03 - 08:19 AM
ard mhacha 01 Dec 03 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,MikeW 01 Dec 03 - 09:02 AM
Big Mick 01 Dec 03 - 09:21 AM
ard mhacha 01 Dec 03 - 04:24 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Dec 03 - 08:58 PM
ard mhacha 02 Dec 03 - 07:02 AM
akenaton 02 Dec 03 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Obie 02 Dec 03 - 08:42 PM
ard mhacha 03 Dec 03 - 01:46 PM
Wolfgang 03 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM
Gareth 03 Dec 03 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,disgusted 03 Dec 03 - 08:34 PM
Coyote Breath 03 Dec 03 - 10:19 PM
ard mhacha 04 Dec 03 - 03:54 AM
GUEST,weerover 04 Dec 03 - 09:28 AM
Fiolar 04 Dec 03 - 09:35 AM
Big Tim 04 Dec 03 - 10:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Dec 03 - 07:58 PM
Gareth 04 Dec 03 - 08:24 PM
ard mhacha 05 Dec 03 - 07:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Dec 03 - 07:14 AM
AKS 05 Dec 03 - 08:12 AM
Fiolar 05 Dec 03 - 08:53 AM
ard mhacha 05 Dec 03 - 09:02 AM

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Subject: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 02:53 PM

After all the guff from Bush and Blair about spreading "democracy",isn't it a joke the way the Northern Ireland situation has turned out.
Right up to the seventies and eighties the religion card was played by the Ulster unionists to retain power.This was encouraged by the Conservatives in Britain to give THEM a perpetual pile of MPs.
Then came the IRA bombing campaign,when we were forbidden by the Government from even hearing what the Republicans ,had to say.
After several years and thousands of deaths ,on both sides ,our government decided it was alright to talk to terrorists after all,and we must get rid of Northern Ireland ,as it had become an embarrasment.
Unfortunately the Loyalists didn't want to be got rid of,and the political divide is now wider than ever
Democracy my arse!!!! Its manipulation when convenient,and Britain "hung by its own petard".....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 05:15 AM

Northern Ireland has been a joke since the then government ignored an all Ireland majority vote for secession from the UK in the 1920s, and gave in to threats from Carson and his bigots,creating a Northern Ireland of 6 counties, 2 of which had a majority vote for independence. Ergo,they are reaping the whirlwind, and it serves them right!

Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Fiolar
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 05:48 AM

It saddens me really what bigotry and hatred can accomplish. The "hardline" DUP seems to have gained more seats in the elections. So its back to the trenches as one report stated. I don't really suppose things will ever change in that beknighted place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 06:24 AM

The killing has stopped (touch woopd, of course), that's the change that has taken place, and that's the change that matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:03 AM

On the 23rd of May I forecast the outcome of this Election, [See the Stakeknife Thread].
I do live here and all of the signs were there months before this election tooh place, McGrath is right when he says, the killing has stopped, it certainly has on the Nationalists side, but the drug turf war on the Protestant side is still smouldering.
It will be direct rule for a long time to come, and one important point of this Election, apathy was the ruling factor in the low vote all round, and, particularly on Trimbles Unionist Party. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:20 AM

You can't make peace by talking to your friends , you need to talk with the ' enemy '


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 10:34 AM

I understand there was a 63% turnout, which while low for Northern Ireland, would count as pretty good for England these days (and incredibly good for the USA).

I doubt it would have been apathy anyway, more a question of knowing how it'd come out, and that they weren't in fact voting for an assembly that was ever likely to exist, except on paper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Strupag
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 10:50 AM

The press and the Beeb reported a swing to the hard line parties.
As an outside observer who, thanks to sat TV can watch both Ulster and BBC NI, saw no real evidence of the Sinn Fein being hard line.
Gerry Adams stated that he will be willing to sit down and talk with any of the political parties including the DUP.
I am aware of their past but there are other ways to look than back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 12:46 PM

Despite their attempts to portray their refusal to deal with "terrorists", it becomes more apparent every day, and after every election, who wants peace and who wants it all their way. The only people playing the "religion" card are the Unionists and their inane "we won't live in a Papist State" rhetoric. It is not the "Papists" who stone little girls in the street on their way to school. The only response to the continued offers of decommissioning is "it's not enough". The Patriot Game is about extinct, but The Orange Card seems to be alive and well.

These folks need to get on with the peace process and get off this tired old crap. Inevitably, Ireland will be one and they need to be part of the process. Their current actions will make them irrelevant to the process soon, and that will make their worst fears come true.

JMHO,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: GUEST,Mr Bumble
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 12:53 PM

Paisley=hatred

EOM

The sob should be frogmarched to the edge of a cliff and left dangling until he begins to grasp the meaning of Christianity and mercy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 02:35 PM

McGrath believe me, there was more talk of this Election in the foothills of Nepal, than there was in this fair land. Apathy was the word 63% may be good for Britain and the US, here the turnout can be around the 80% mark.

There are too many MLA`s for the size of the population, it is easy money for most of them, apathy will bring some of these wind-bags down a peg. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 02:42 PM

Mr Bumble...I agree with your analysis of Rev Ian Paisley,but no one can accuse him of being inconsistent. He has played the same tune for decades,unlike the Westminster governments,who have all been self-serving over NI.The situation in Northern Ireland is no accident but has been manufactured by the politicians in the most disgraceful way ,and these are people who are trying to bring "democracy " to the Iraqis......Dont make me laugh...
"If we dont like the result of an election ,we'll keep trying till we get the result we want"    Its called manipulation,and it stinks...


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 04:29 PM

I have visited friends of mine in Co Down many times and have noticed how different things are now compared to several years ago. The Police are driving around in cars rather than Land Rovers in many places they would not dare to before. The attitude of people everywhere has changed - they dont view stangers with so much suspicion - I feel much more at ease getting on and off the ferry and travelling back and forth over the border through the check points.   

I hope and pray that the people of both communities will continue to build understanding and respect for each other and can bring about a long lasting peace for the sake of the younger people who should not be subjected to the same anxieties and dangers as their parents and grandparents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:30 PM

Hmmm ! - Lets try and be objective here.

If you Click 'Ere you can see the actual recorded voting figures. (O.K. BBC, but I doubt if they would misrepresent the figures)

Now a couple of caveats.

These figures wre compiled fron a preferance voting systems so that straight comparisons have to be taken with caution.

Secondly, Electoral fraud was endemic in Northern Ireland, in fact those, like myself, or cllr who actually help organise in the UK electorial process use the short hand Irish Votes to discuss / indicate the "dead" voting etc. Or to put it another way

"Vote Craig/Murphy,
Vote Early,
Vote Often !"


It is also fair to say that some considerable effort has been made to stop impersonation/"Voting the Dead"

That being said, do some basic mathematics,

Something like 62% by vote and 75 out of 108 members of the NI Assembly belong to parties (and I include Sien Fien ) who, nominally at least, are supporters and participants in the "Power Sharing Ageeement."

It may suit those whose political agenda depends upon the singing of "Partriotic Songs" whilst intoxicated in Boston/Dublin bars to wish the Good Friday Agreement to fail. This view would seem to be a minority of those who took the trouble to vote.

Now 'Catters whose views are besoted by the "Struggle", or a need to try and sell Newspaper Articles attacking British Squaddies may not like what I have said, or am going to say.

Please Note - No referendum has been taken in the rest of the UK as to wether any further effort or money should be poured into to Northern Ireland. This was an implied threat during the campaign for the "Good Friday Agreement"

It does not take a genius with the skills of Alistair Campell to realise that this can be used again. Frankly I would enjoy a campaign on this in South Wales.

"Use the money for Welsh Benefit" - Coupled with pictures of Welsh servicemens funerals. - With any luck we'd take our Nat's out politically as well.

I agree that the history of British involvement in Northern Ireland is not the best example.

30 odd years later, I still believe that the biggest mistake of the Wilson Government in 1968 was not imposing direct rule and the disbanding of the RUC. I am feared that the relaince of the ARMY on RUC intelligence sowed the seeds of the growth of the PIRA

But then, hindsite is very usefull.

An unrepentant.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 01:17 AM

A wee dab of Santa's "peacepowder" as described by the inimitable Crawford Howard might do the trick------


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 11:53 AM

I recall a mate of mine parodying Ian Paisley's 'no surrender' speeches when I was a schoolboy in the '60's. I'm now a few years from retirement and he is still popping up on our tv screens every time NI is in the news. Not only has he been consistent, he's been consistent for an awful long time and seems like he may go on for a bit longer yet - and I believe that son of Paisley is also on the scene somewhere......


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 12:05 PM

I don't think it's reasonable to lump Carson in with the bigots, Giok. I've never been a big fan of his (mainly because he was Oscar Wilde's prosecutor) but he was not responsible for putting Northern Ireland on its ruinous sectarian path, and would probably have been dismayed at the line taken by Craig and his successors.

The improved stability described by Jim, and the reddressing of so many wrongs, will not now be undone. Some of the credit for getting the place on to this improving trend should go to John Major and Bertie Ahern, who took one of the boldest steps of all in kickstarting the whole process.

I hope that fellow republicans will agree that this is the time for a little patience. It may yet take a while, but the future is ours (or as Brendy put it in a post a few weeks ago, the war is over because the IRA won it). Unionist recognition of that fact will inevitably make them as volatile to deal with as any minority would be when finding itself in such a no-win situation. Any on the republican side who favour the triumphalist approach need look no farther than the consequences of the Versailles treaty after WW1 to see that it is counter-productive.

The loyalist side are admittedly responsible for more than their fair share of the gangsterism that now threatens everyday life in Belfast, but this is not a peculiarly prod thing. And any police accommodation of it is not bias but corruption. Loyalists have had no part in the gangsterism, less often discussed, that Dublin has endured. Remember Veronica Guerin as well as Martin O'Hagan. But there's no point repeating stuff I've said here several times - except to say that those who believe in any dispute that all the fault is on "the other side" are usually wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 01:49 PM

Fionn, It is a well known fact that Martin O`Hagan was murdered by the Loyalist Volunteer Force [LVF]. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: boglion
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 02:17 PM

Question: How many Orangemen does it take to change a lightbulb?







Answer: "Who said anything about CHANGE?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: weerover
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 02:48 PM

Giok,

Would it were only the government who were "reaping the whirlwind", as you put it. The political fallout is a mild zephyr by comparison whith what the people on the streets in the "province", as some call it (technically it's two thirds of a province), experience on a regular basis, and eleswhere in the UK from time to time.

wr


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 05:20 PM

In large parts of Scotland we have the same type of sectarianism that we see in Northern Ireland.Again this disease has been nurtured by politicians of all persuasions to serve their own purposes.
I have no doubt that Scotland would be an Independent nation today if the politicians had not used sectarianism.    A large number of Scots ,equate Nationalism with Irish Republicanism,with all the "Rome rules" connotations.
Politcal survival involves the use of every dirty trick in the book,mainly to cause divisions NOT to unite...Divide and conquer is the maxim....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 12:35 AM

McGrath, you are right again. At least the killing has stopped.

Well mostly.

I have two responses to news of NI or of the fate of the people who want peace. Being greatly cheered by events. Being greatly saddened by events. But there is another feeling beginning to creep in; being greatly tired of it all. I can afford to be tired of it all. I don't live in NI and my NI friends, mostly, are here in the 'states. I want to see peace's victory and I know that however much I may long for it that longing hasn't anywhere near the intensity of the longing felt in NI. God bless them. ALL OF THEM.

Ian Paisley should be ashamed of himself. He claims to be a protestant. I belong to the United Church of Christ. We welcome all. As Christians, our covenant with the lord commands us to welcome all, to love all. Even Ian Paisley.

Our congregation recently had a drive for warm socks for the homeless in St. Louis. The organization who will distribute these socks is Covenant House. Covenant House is "Catholic". Persons trapped in poverty and disease, sorrow and hunger don't seek relief from Catholics or Lutherans or the United Church of Christ. But here, in our city, they receive it from all of us.

If only persons like Paisley could see clearly, and remember our covenant with God, peace would have a chance.

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 03:39 AM

The facts speak for themselves, personation in this Election was nigh on impossible, every voter had to have photographic identification,all that old talk of , vote early, vote often, is long past.
Here are some of the voting figures from the Election,
Newry and Armagh turnout, 70.2%, down 7.1%, Mid-Ulster turnout 74%, down 10.4%. Upper Bann turnout 64.2%, down 8.1%, North Down turnout 54.5%, down 5.7%, even Ian Paisley`s North Antrim was down 5.7% per cent. In FACT every constituency was down.

Living here as I do, the talk was of sporting matters, the weather etc, never before was there less interest in this shambles of an Election, the outcome was well known in advance, you did not have to be a political expert to know this.

A long period of rule from Westminister will be the outcome and there should be a big reduction in the MLA`s £40,000 per annum pay. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 04:40 AM

Is Northern Ireland another Gibraltar? i.e. Do the UK government only support it as a means of maintaining a presence on the island of Ireland? What else prevents them from bowing to the inevitable, and getting out, taking with them those who fear the rule of Dublin?
It would after all be a lot cheaper to provide the refuseniks with jobs and homes on the mainland, than to keep troops et al in place there.
Or could it be that if offered the north as a free gift, Dublin would refuse the offer?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 05:25 AM

Mainland?,   Europe wouldn`t take R.I.P. and his mob. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Fiolar
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 08:19 AM

A small drift. There was an interesting article in Sunday's Observer's colour magazine. It was by Bernadette Devlin McAliskey. (Yes she's still alive and kicking). She describes the time when she and her husband were shot by loyalist thugs. I quote the relevant section. "In October 1981, when the first prisoner hunger strike started, the UDA leader John McMichael appeared on TV and said that if it continued they would shoot the leaders of the National H-Block Association. They had already shot and killed five of them when, on 15 January I came in from an H-Block meeting and found these soldiers lying outside my back door. The next morning at about seven, my husband Michael heard a car in the street and saw people come out with masks and a sledgehammer. They smashed the door in, shot me, shot my husband and walked out again. They didn't kill us because they ran out of bullets. They had to fire several shots before they got in because my husband fought with them, then I was hit eight times and my husband was hit seven. You don't feel it when you are shot, you smell it. The soldiers arrested the gunmen. They came in and one of the soldiers said 'We had orders to arrest them coming out'."
Self explanatory I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 08:31 AM

This is not the first time that this has happened, Mrs Mallon aged 75 was shot in her home in Tyrone, the Army had the house under survelliance but failed to intervene, also Rosemary Nelson the Lurgan Lawyer who was killed when her car was booby-trapped, the surrounding area was swamped with British Army patrols hours before.

There are numerous incidents of set-ups by the security forces, after all collusion was rife and the Loyalists had free rein to kill any Nationalists that refused to "keep their head down". Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 09:02 AM

I'm with Gareth, we should have a referendum throughout the UK to ascertain whether we actually want NI to remain part of the UK.
It seems we can't do right for doing right! We bend over backwards to accomodate the differing factions pleasing none of them.
They want to be part of the UK but only on their terms accepting parts of legislation that suites them and rejecting the rest.

We are blamed for injustices that happened hundreds of years ago!
How long must we be made to feel guilty for things done so long ago.

We should hold a referendum like De Gaulle did on the question of whether the French wanted to keep Algeria and we know the outcome of
that.

Mike Wood


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 09:21 AM

Mike, no one blames the people of England. Most that I know condemn attrocities against the innocent English civilian population. But the injustices did not stop several hundred years ago. The injustices that most are angry about have been ongoing for several hundred years including the last 40 years. Imprisonment without charge, complicity in the murder of Republicans, stoning of schoolkids without intervention from the "peacekeepers", sniper attacks on peaceful marchers, "shoot to kill" orders, and on and on. These are actions that have occurred recently.

In fairness, the current British government is also taking actions and supporting a process that will inevitably lead to a lasting peace and reunification. And they are doing so while navigating a very tricky politic.

Finally, I have great faith in the British electorate, especially since having come to know so many of them here. I am sure that they desire peace for all the people of Ireland. Should there be a referendum, it would come out fine.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 04:24 PM

Mike W,Lets go, or should that be let go?. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 08:58 PM

The insensitivity of Mike W's post had me rushing to point out that the injustices are not by any means all in the past (look no farther than the deaths of Pat Finucane - my own solicitor - and Rosemary Nelson). But no need to get into all that, as Big Mick has said it better, and with commendable restraint.

Ard mhacha, you're a stickler for detail! I made in plain enough that O'Hagan was killed by loyalists, but yes, if you need me to be more specific, it was indeed the LVF.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 07:02 AM

From todays Irish newspapers, The Canadian Judge Peter Cory employed by the British government to investigate collusion between HM`s security forces and the Protestant paramilitaries, part of his report will state that a gun used in six murders was allowed by the RUC to be handed back to the UVF.

BBC Panorama journalist John Ware claimed last night that this was not a unique incident, Ware stated that, " I was told that a number of weapons under the control of the RUC Special Branch were given back to different agents within the Loyalist, UDA and UVF which led to fatal results.

The guns which were handed back were supposed to be bugged, known as jarking, so that the RUC could trace them back to source, those weapons were not altered. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 12:25 PM

I suppose by now your all fed up with me going on and on about how politics is very bad for our mental and physical wellbeing.
There cant be a better,(or worse) example of how the politicians poison peoples minds for personal gain,finiancial and political.
Its no use to say that it all happened long ago.   I can remember very well,the gerrymandering,the discrimination and hatred the Catholic minority had to endure in NI.   All orchestrated by the Unionists,and the Conservative British Government. As iv stated before ,the same thing happens in Scotland ,but not as openly.
The only reason Blair is doing anything about the situation,is because he cant be seen to have ongoing "terrorism" in the UK,while claiming to put the rest of the word to rights....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 02 Dec 03 - 08:42 PM

The time has long passed for the British government to stop propping up arseholes like Paisley and his ilk.
Get to hell out and turn Ulster over to the government of the republic. You gave Hong Kong back to China; give Ulster back to Ireland!


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Dec 03 - 01:46 PM

Getting back to the Photographic Identifaction used in this Election,I am curious to know if similiar methods are used anywhere else in the EU. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM

We usually vote bringing our voting notification card that was sent to us personally weeks before. If we have lost this card or don't have it with us we have to show our passport or identity card both allowing facial identification.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Dec 03 - 08:03 PM

Ard M -

The "Representation of the People Acts" alow for any Candidate or his agent (Election or Polling) to request that the presiding office (The Clerk in Charge of a Polling Station) put the "Statutary Questions" to any voter presenting themselves. As these resolve around indentity, and multiple voting then some form of identity should be produced If formally demanded.

Postal voters have to have thier declaration of identity form witnessed by another and the truth of indentity vouched for.

Impersonation is not a problem in the UK - In fact in many years as an Agent I have only had to use this power once. That was as a result of good intelligence that the Nationalist Party were collecting the "Notification of Poll" Cards from the dead, dying, or absent in one particular ward.

We provided the presiding officers at the polling station with a list of the dead etc., and a written request that if these persons presented themselves then they were to be challenged.

As a spoiler, on the eve of election day I informed my oposite number that we were doing this - And received a mouthfull of Abuse.

Obviously we had upset thier "cunning little plan", I never did find out what thier plan B was. My candidate won, with an absolute majority.

I suppose the moral is, if your going to try to rig the vote don't boast about it in the Pub where people are listening.

Funnly enough we did catch one, a student doing it for a prank, which the Police, quite correctly dealt with as a "caution".

In Canterbury some years ago the polling day returns indicated that the dead and dying were voting in one ward. I had a beer with the Conservative Agent who checked her records and found the same anonamly.

Nothing we could easily prove in a court of law, and as the result seemed to be uneffected we caught the Liberal Organiser in the back bar of the "Maidens Head" and informed him that next time we'd set him up for a conviction and left it at that.

It didn't happen again.

I am happy to say that impersonation is not a problem in the UK.

In Trinidad, where I once saw an election. people who voted were asked to dip thier thumbs in a pot of red dye, to stop multiple voting.

Never mind Ard M - I trust it was not a traumatic experience, and you can be happy with the one legitamate vote !.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: GUEST,disgusted
Date: 03 Dec 03 - 08:34 PM

"Mom, he hit me!"
"Well, he hit me first!"
"I did not, I just barely pushed you because you were on my side of the seat."
"I was not, and it's my seat, too!"
"But you're always taking more than your share because you're the biggest."
"The biggest is supposed to get more!"
"Who says?"
"I'm just right, that's all."
"No you're not, and besides, you lied about who killed the goldfish."
"That was my goldfish- Grandma gave it to ME!"
"No it wasn't! You never did feed it, anyway."

And so on to infinity. Both sides citing 2000 detailed references to what was done to them, and both sides being correct. If you could see yourselves! I could write almost the same script for the Irish problem as for the Middle East problem or for the Balkan problem with a few detail changes.

Someone has to say "enough".


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 03 Dec 03 - 10:19 PM

Yeah except "mom" doesn't aid one of her children in the wacking of the other and then lie about it to the neighbors and hide it from da.

Weariness abounds and cynicism reigns. I've been considering buying the rain jacket offered on the Sinn Fein website.

"Tiocfaidh ar la" is screen printed on the front upper left breast area. It is said to be waterproof. It should be bullet proof.

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 03:54 AM

Thanks to all of you, now I know we are the only people in Europe were photographic identifaction is used. Ard Mhacha


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 09:28 AM

The technical term for representing oneself as another in order to use their vote in the UK is "personation": it has occurred in the past to my certain knowledge on many occasions, but don't know whether it's still an issue.

wr


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Fiolar
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 09:35 AM

Sadly the killing has not stopped. A recent BBC news report stated that 13 people have been killed in the last 12 months, the most recent within the last two weeks or so. I can't recall seeing any information that the perps were caught or brought to justice but I may have missed that information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 10:23 AM

Didn't JFK owe his 1960 victory to electoral fraud in Chicago? (Not to mention Bush in Florida!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 07:58 PM

One type of electoral fraud which has made a difference in some election in England has been cheating confused old people into signing over their proxy vote to canvassers.

But of course the new electronic "reforms" are going to transform, the whole system, and probably make things wide open for fraud and accusations of fraud. And I imagine that will happen far more easily in Britain than in Northern Ireland, where people will be watching out like hawks. I can't see the casual attitude towards electronic voting systems being tolerated over there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Gareth
Date: 04 Dec 03 - 08:24 PM

Kevin -

(1) You might be unaware that the Representation of the Peoples Acts prohibit any individual holding more than two proxy votes unless they are close relatives.

(2) A voter who has granted a proxy vote may vote in person, provided that the proxy vote has not been used.

I am aware of only two outstanding Cases/Investigations for electorial fraud in England and Wales where chatges have been made.

One in Bristol. One in Surrey. I am happy to say that Labour Party members are not involved.

In my patch Proxy Votes are discouraged, in line with the general recomendations from HQ., unless you are dealing with close relatives, or fellow Party members.

For further information Click 'Ere Yes I know the site needs updating !

Gareth

Gareth

Sign Early, Sign Often !


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 07:02 AM

Gareth,"Impersonation", you and your joined at the hip Conservative Cllr would need to undertand the terms of reference before embarking on any more crusades. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 07:14 AM

There are ways round that kind of thing , Gareth - as witness this one: Councillors guilty of UK's biggest electoral fraud - and this was in London. (And involving a Liberal Democrat and a Tory, as it happens.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: AKS
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 08:12 AM

re "... now I know we are the only people ..."

No you're not, Ard M! If a Finnish voter can not represent 'an official proof of identity - passport, driving license, or similar with photo on it' when required at the polls, s/he is not allowed to vote. Did happen to me once back in the 70s when I was a newcomer here in town.

AKS


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 08:53 AM

Further to my recent posting, I came across the following in relation to the killings in NI.
"PSNI confirm Lisburn murder was sectarian

The PSNI confirmed that last weekend's murder in Lisburn, Co. Antrim, of Catholic James McMahon (21) was sectarian. Speaking on Tuesday PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde said his officers were investigating a sectarian motive, adding that the murder was one of the most brutal he had ever seen. "A man was going about his ordinary business, was ambushed and beaten to death with bats. It is the tough end of extreme brutality - mindless violence". The young man, who was the eldest of five children, had just begun a new job with Coca-Cola. During the funeral ceremony, which was attended by a large number of young people, parish priest Fr Seán Rogan said the local community had been "disgusted by the brutality of the murder". He said the "repeated threats to human life, young and old, have filled us with tension and anxiety, but when they spill into killing then we experience a more profound sense of shock at the evil which is being perpetrated". In what the priest described as "a stark contrast" the victim's parents donated their son's organs."

"Father of murdered Ballyclare man resigns from Orange Order

Meanwhile John Allen Snr, whose son John was murdered in Ballyclare, Co. Antrim two weeks ago, resigned from the Orange Order on Tuesday, declaring that he would no longer be involved in an organisation, which claimed his son's killers as members. Mr Allen said the past month had been the worst of his life and he did not want to leave the organisation, which he had been a part of for 28 years but said that, although he had been told the identity of his son's killers by several sources, the PSNI said there was not enough evidence to bring charges against the culprits. Mr Allen said he had visited the McMahon family in Lisburn on Monday night to express his sympathy to a family experiencing the same trauma."

Nothing changes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland What a Joke
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Dec 03 - 09:02 AM

Thanks Aks, better late than never, do any of you UK catters remember Dame Shirley Porter, Leader of Westminister City Council?.

Dame Shirley when Leader of Westminister City Council was convicted of gerrymandering during 1987-88, the good Dame sold off Council houses to people at a cheaper price, who were likely likely to vote Conervative.

After conviction, she was ordered to pay a surcharge of £27,000,000, but the boul Shirley high-tailed it to Israel, beyond the reach of the law.

In January 2002 she claimed she had only assets of £300,000, according to The Sunday Times rich list of 2001, she had £69,000,000.
She is believed to have disposed of the money in secret accounts, of which very little has been recovered.

If Shirley had been seeking advice from experts she should have looked no further than the Ulster Unionist Party who from 1922 until 1972 used the gerrymander method throughout the six counties, Derry for instance with a Nationalist population of 75%, could only claim one third of the seats in Derry Council. Ard Mhacha.


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