UK young folk awards

Subject: UK young folk awards
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 01:34 AM

just a remider, its on the radio tonight, 8pm, radio2,
you can here it on your compter as well if you are forein,
bbc.co.uk/radio2

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,Flok
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:14 AM

Advertised on Wogans show this morning followed by Wogan doing much Hey Nonny No-ing going on about fingers in ears and generally taking the piss! Nice one Radio 2!!

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,COMMENTATOR
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:40 AM

Radio 2. What about organising a series to give wider audience and awards (if necessary) to current, not so young folk artists?

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:45 AM

I heard Terry Wogan too. His six million listeners now will have no interest whatsoever in Mike Harding's programme!Is it time to quietly drop the word "folk?"

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:46 AM

See the nominations for the Folk Awards on the Radio 2 Folk and Acoustic pages. It's becoming a bit of a closed shop. Perhaps previous winners should be excluded from the following year's awards.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,Flok
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:50 AM

Young people trying to start a career in a difficult musical genre and the idiotic Wogan and his superfluous crony taking the rise...perhaps BBC controllers should be informed or is Wogan untouchable?

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,Flok
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:53 AM

Heard Wogan taking the mickey after playing a Sandy Denny track (probably by accident)a few months ago..Pity he didn't show the same respect he does for a certain deceased American singer!

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:25 AM

No GUEST, it is time to quietly (or noisily) drop Wogan.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: fiddler
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:35 AM

Just emailed this link to Wogan!

Too Little too late but he may apologies - remember the Floral Dance!

A

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: vectis
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:41 AM

We should use the term traditional instead of folk. The irish, scots and welsh do and there is respect and media coverage of trad. music on the media in all three areas. All we get is Mike Harding playing his friends' music, at least that's how it comes across. I've stopped listening to him he got so boring...
Sorry Mike

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: fiddler
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:50 AM

With you there a bit of 'branding' in modern times might help.

I've never seen Kate Rusby with her finger in her ear or Jim Moray come to that and they may appeal to less than 50 yr old folkies sorry traditionalies he he he.....

But I think we will always be a public minority but there are a lot of us Active and earning part of our living form it much better than the hear today gone tomorrow popularists!!!!

A

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:03 AM

Maybe we could drop Wogan off a 1st floor balcony!
Not high enough for it to kill him but high enough that he breaks somthing and thinks twice about extracting the michial again.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,Commuter
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:10 AM

Terry Wogan is funny on the radio in the morning and I listen to him most mornings on the way to work. But the playlist is dire! You are never more than 15 minutes away from Phil Collins,Tina Turner or Supertramp!
         I keep reading that his producer Paul Walters is "musically astute" if he is, why not slot a bit of folk in? I would have thought radio 2 listeners would prefer a hint of the current folk scene rather than the usual diet served to us every day.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: 8_Pints
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:10 PM

Thanx for the alert.

Just switched on .............

Bob vG

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:21 PM

Well I've just tuned in. There was someone playing Beaumont Rag on the guitar which certainly reminded me how much I like Doc watson. And curmudgeonly old fogey as I am, it set me a-musing..so why didnt Mike Harding play the Doc Watson recording? I always used to wonder why they played kenny ball records all the time on the radio in the 60's, when they could have used records of the guys who actually made the jazz in the first place. It wasnt as if this guitarist was actually developing the tune in some innovatory way, he just played it, not as well as Doc watson. Strange.(of course, there were a couple of slippy runs in it that Doc didnt play, I should add for fairness).

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 04:13 PM

Interesting listen. Two of the performers stood out and made me listen, Jackie Oates(sp?) and Jarleth Henderson(sp?). The latter won, good piping. (With some endearing bloopers in his prize acknowledging piece!).
Jackie Oates was amazingly good at singing with the fiddle(if I heard rightly, she was doing both together, I was cooking at the time). That lass will go far, it's not easy.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: 8_Pints
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 04:16 PM

Bit of a "Curate's egg" I thought (i.e. good in parts), and agreed that the winner deserved his award.

I thought the treatment of the Jeannie Robertson song was diabolical, attrocious and a travesty!!!!! Nothing whatever to do with folk!

Bob & Sue vG

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:48 PM

The "finger in the ear" nonsense is trotted out on a knee-jerk basis by lazy and ignorant morons pretending to be journalists on a depressingly regular basis. It is irrelevant; so is age. We really do need to avoid the ageism implicit in so many of these thoughtless and stupid comments; as also many of the assumptions associated with them that would be considered inexcusably racist if applied to any other cultural tradition. Wogan knows better, and really ought to be behaving with a little more intelligence; but perhaps he is becoming senile.

I wasn't able to get to the event myself, but I gather that it was good night. It's a pity, I think, to try to promote a "youth" cult in traditional music, where it really is entirely inappropriate. Have to remember, though, that when dealing with media people we are looking largely at terminal fashion victims who are quite unable to understand that this music trancends the kind of artificial barriers which it suits them to impose upon it.

Young players should be encouraged at every opportunity, but they should not be given the impression that they are more important than anybody else. They are not. It is the music that is important, whoever is making it. The fact that "younger" people want to do it is proof of the continuing validity of the genre, and only really sad bastards who don't know what they are talking about need to pretend that the input of a younger generation invalidates that of an older one. It belongs to everybody who is prepared to accord it the respect it deserves.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:27 PM

how old was the fiddle player? sounded about 3 and had no soul!

how can anyone play without any feeling and said to be good??

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 06:00 AM

GUEST: re young players and no soul. I dont know which of the fiddlers you are referring to, there were three I think.Jackie Oates(who also sang, and I singled her out for praise). Emma Sweeney, and Tom Kitching. (from, respectively, Stafford, manchester and Macclesfield...good to see NW England so decisively represented in the fiddling stakes!).
Anyway, yes, maybe they sounded young. hell, they are young. I had occasion recently to listen to a load of raw recordings made in pubs/folk clubs in the 60's.The majority of the performers on these were then callow youths in the 17-25 age range. And some of them are now respected mature performers (and some of them aare dead). But they sounded young as hell, and indeed a lot of them sounded emotionless.
    The deep emotions of teenagers are not always obvious for us old fogeys to relate to. But they may be there, and they may be perfectly detectable to other youngsters. I say fair play to the lads and lasses.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 06:23 AM

Malcolm, yo' de man! You hit the nail (several nails) right on the head, and far more eloquently than I can. Seems as though ageists, by promoting the 'Yoof' culture, are attempting to take over the folk scene in exactly the same way they're taking over everything else (fashion, commerce, industry, you name it). The folk music scene's a broad church in which everyone, irrespective of age, should be treated as equals and granted the same respect as performers.

Encouragement of youngsters is vital and is to be applauded, but it shouldn't involve putting them on false pedestals. And there are some good tunes played on old fiddles (as me old mam used to say).

Peace :-)
Johnny

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: s&r
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 06:29 AM

We deal a lot with young musicians. They (in general) are lively, brash, enthusiastic and innovative. They will use the instruments they have to play the music they like. They tend to ignore the conventions that folk music tends to be hidebound with. The results are IMO sometimes messy and sometimes brilliant.

They are also the future of folk music and the custodians of our heritage: they will however develop and change it - as they always have.

I agree with Malcolm that the music is important, but don't give a jot whether it fits into my own preferences preconceptions or prejudices.

Stu

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:39 AM

WoooooOOOOOoooooh!

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: fiddler
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:45 AM

I take issue with the ageist thing, Young folk seem to need to identify and not with me an aging folkie (now in my half century year) look at the success of Shooting Roots organisation (UK) - set up. Hmm... Hobby horse club should be banned too then!

Age becomes less of an issue as we get more of it usually.

The feedback from competitions can be very informing and helpful to young performers. I judge (pontificate on) one national competition (well have for the past three years) it is the hardest gig I do in a year.

All have potential and all are willing submit themselves and to listen to us oldies. They can take it on board, dismiss it, or whatever but it is nevertheless an good learning experience and sometimes you can come accross an absolute stunner.

I'm biased I know but I think Jackie Oates is brilliant and will go far, and am privileged to have had the cahnace to both 'judge' her and work with her!


To anyone form the awards reading all this - You are bound to get 'grumpy old man' syndrome listen to it but don't let it get under your skin!

A

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:59 AM

I agree that age is fairly irrelevant to folk music. However, that doesnt mean that a little special help (even the odd competition priz) shouldnt be earmarked for the young. I do a fair bit of teaching/"mentoring"(what the used to call giving people a bit of a hand)/ general organising etc. And if I see a promising youngster I naturally offer assistance to point them in the direction of gigs/fellow musicians/godd tunes or whatever. it's human nature: I've only got so much time or energy, I naturally tend to channel it towrds assisting the young rather than the middle aged or old: on the assumption(maybe totally incorrect)that they are already on track. It's only commonsense. it may be ageist, but it's fairly normal to spend more on educating the young, rather than the terminally ill.
   Having said that, I agree that the BBC is on a very unhealthy "yoof" kick, and I also dont particularly like competitions for the young.(In music, that is, high-jumping is fine). The winner of this award Jarleth Henderson, is a well-seasoned competitor of many years standaring in the cut-throat world of Irish fleadhs, and I find a lot of that stuff extremely depressing.
    The worst aspect of this competition can be found in the mission statement about it in Folkworks website. The purpose of the event is described as "helping to set up networks between young players and providing information useful to a career in professional music". Well, that is a very accurate expression of what I said earlier in this thread about what I try to do to help youngsters looking for gigs. Whether that should be the overall aim of the BBC in respect to folk music is another thing all together: careers in professional music are, and should be(I would think) a very very very tiny portion of what folk music is about. And I speak is a professional musician when I say that.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: Grab
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 09:15 AM

"Young players should be encouraged at every opportunity, but they should not be given the impression that they are more important than anybody else."

Should the Young Musician of the Year competition be dropped as well, then? As I understand these competitions, they are designed as a platform to enable younger musicians to move forwards, and to promote the musicians who are likely to be the future of the musical form. I don't see how it's saying they're more important than anyone else.

I missed the piper's first go-round, so I only heard his finishing bit. A question for pipers - is it genuinely not possible to phrase your music? Maybe I'm just not used to listening to piping, but it seemed just a stream of notes with no noticeable emphasis or rhythm. As music designed for dancing to, you'd have a damn hard time with that!

Graham.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 09:35 AM

The piper did display some rhythmic weaknesses(I referred to a few bloopers earlier), but he's a young lad, and playing on his own. Emphasis is very difficult in piping, you cant suddenly blow a bit louder. Banging your fingers down harder doesnt help either, really! It's a subtle business. A lot of pipers in the past would say their music was nothing to dowith dancing anyway, they leave that to the common fiddlers.
   Anyway, Jackie Oates the singing fiddler was the one that got my attention. Mind you, Im only juding on one half-heard song, while chopping onions. Mind you, I'm biassed in favour of singing fiddlers, I earn my living accompanying one. Now there seem to be two in Staffordshire!

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: Beverley Barton
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 11:45 AM

Did 50cent win anything? my wireless will not pick up anything but the Home Service after dark, so I could not hear the programme.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 11:52 AM

Fiddler, Greg et al, I'm not in any way disagreeing with you regarding the encouragement and guidance of young performers, nor with the 'Young Performer' competition per se. As a performer in various genres for the past 42 years (albeit only as a semi-pro) I've gone through the young- and middle-age bit and I'm now entering 'younger-old age' (and still performing!), so I'm aware of the problems that youth and inexperience can throw up. I'm just concerned that Folk Music may go down the road that Rock/Pop seems to have gone, and that only the young will be regarded as having anything worthwhile to offer, whilst the older, more experienced performer will be regarded more and more as being worthless. In a different time I distinctly remember a youthful John Lydon declaring that Punks were producing the only valid music on the Rock scene, and that bands such as the Rolling Stones were a load of Boring Old Farts - how many sell-out world tours has Mr. Lydon undertaken in the past couple of years (or ever?)?

As I said earlier, talent is talent irrespective of age. Yes, lets welcome young performers with open arms and nurture and encourage their burgeoning talents, but let's not forget those who've been around for a while and, incidentally, won't be around for ever. Today's kids are tomorrow's oldies.

JMHO :-)

Peace Brothers,
Johnny

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 11:52 AM

Greg/Beverley/anyone else who didn't hear the YFA:

All six finalists' full sets are on the BBC Folk & Acoustic site here,
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: Beverley Barton
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 11:58 AM

Thanks countess,I will listen in.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:07 PM

Thanks for that info, countess, but i havent got the technology to listen in on a computer. But I think I heard a smattering of most of the people. And it's given me a little project for the next year: to persuade some of the more raw youngsters I know to enter the competition. The overall impression of the contestants seemed to me to be polished rather than rough, careful rather than exuberant, impressive rather than moving. That may just reflect the tastes of the judges, but we shall see.......

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:21 PM

greg try to get hold of Jackie's full performance if you can. God knows why they chose to use the much weaker of her two songs on the radio - her performance of "The Cruel Ship's Carpenter" was stunning (with admittedly some nerves showing through).

And I'm biased too - can't say I've ever judged her (well not musically at least) but I have worked with her (but then I only worked with her *because* I think she's so good)

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:26 PM

GUEST: who are you? Dont be coy.
I shall certainly chase up other examples of Jackie Oates singing. especially if (as you say )there is better stuff out there than I heard on the radio). I have just fired off an email to her, she only lives down the road but I've never heard her. I'll share some hot Staffs tunes with her, and introduce her to the work of my favourite fiddler/simultaneous singer Kate Barfield(if she's not familiar already).

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: fiddler
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 03:52 AM

Greg,

That's the attitude - Brilliant!

The competition should be a spring board to other things - After all the music thing is a permanent competition, usually of a very friendly nature, even when 2 bands trun up to the same gig - don't digress here look at the other threads on that one!

I'm glad to see some middle ground emerging at last! Try some for Jim Moray next!

A

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 04:45 AM

Well, I'm glad we're in agreement, fiddler, but I'm not that sure about the virtues of the middle ground, either on young folk or Jim Moray. I loather pickled walnuts, some people love them. That's fine with me, what's the point of aiming for a world in which we all vaguely tolerate pickled walnuts, with no strong feelings either way? Same applies to Jim Moray, excessively clever young pipers, old people who rabbit on about the 60's or anything else.
   Remember, sitting on the fence is less comfortable than the ground either side, especially if you suffer from piles.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 07:25 AM

how old was the fiddle player? sounded about 3 and had no soul!
how can anyone play without any feeling and said to be good??

I think the main problem was I wasn't listening to the music and taking "age" into account ...... I try not to judge or make allowances for age, sex or disabilities e.g.. "he's very good for his age" or "she's only been playing a couple of weeks" " he's only got two fingers" etc etc.

When you listen to music on radio Cd whatever all you have is what has been played or sung with no visual distraction (little girls in pretty dresses etc ahhhhhhhh!!!)- I prefer to be judged for what I play not what or who I am... and I judge other's in the same way... Talent is talent and the fiddle tune I heard played (I can't remember who it was as I was driving at the time) left me totally cold - unlike the tunes played at festivals and clubs (many played by very young people) there was no life in it and if the "contest" was judging talent and skill there are many more "young people" who could have put the tune across FAR better (in my humble opinion)..

re. age - I don't think I could be classed as an old person by any means!!!!!

I didn't intend (neither do I now) to upset anyone just voicing an opinion....

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: fiddler
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 07:42 AM

Agreed Greg!

and a nice reply form guest too!

Peace in out time.

A
XX

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,Dan Abnormal
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:40 AM

Greg, I'm sure Jackies brother will be only too happy to put her off entering a genre of music where narrow minded idiots launch personal attacks on young artists for having the cheek to play something THEY don't like.

Who is her brother? No one you've heard of - not innovative enough/got a very good voice.

Subject: RE: UK young folk awards
From: GUEST,Janice Normal
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 05:00 AM

Heh! Oh, the irony...