Jim Moray....

Subject: Jim Moray....
From: Morris-ey
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 05:44 AM

....modern saviour of folk music or nerd with a MIDI who can't really sing that well? Discuss.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 05:52 AM

Check out this thread.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 05:59 AM

a friend of mind read out the programme notes just before I was about to compere him at at festival. The notes read (sort of) 'Jim Moray brings an inovative approach to Folk Music bringing in new sounds to take folk music into a modern dimension' to which my mate said I should add 'but personally I think it's pretenious shite'

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:02 AM

I think he's brilliant!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:10 AM

Personally, Guest, I think it's your friend who is is the pretentious shit.

But as Brian says, check out last summer's thread. No need to trot out all the old stuff again without drastic reworking and new and relevant interpretation. Jim wouldn't.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:36 AM

Well I think he is an excellent folksinger, excellent entertainer, and I have thoroughly enjoyed his live performances. Maybe the notes that Guest mentions are pretentious - but not Jim!
(I know we've done it all before on the other thread - but I can't help saying what I think...)

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,COMMENTATOR
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:38 AM

At last, "the king`s new suit of clothes" open for discussion.
Some months ago I took Mike Harding to task, via an e-mail, for describing a new Jim Moray CD (his words) as "the most fantastic folk music he`d heard in ages". My opinion was that young Jim`s singing would be appreciated by most folk club audiences as a floor spot and , with youth on his side, he has plenty of time to develop a stronger style and better interpretations of the music, but to use the word "fantastic" was very wide of the mark. I also suggested there are so many more singers and players to be heard who should be also considered, many of which are not to be found on CD`s.
I received no reply!!
People`s/Pub/Folk/Session music is alive and well and to be found thriving all over ; it is not in need of being re-discovered for "the yufe", they will learn to love or discard it in the fullness of time as many of us have done.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: treewind
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:52 AM

Modern saviour of folk music?
- no, no one person is going to do that, but he must be making some contribution to the acceptability of folk music in places where it was unappreciated before.

Nerd with a MIDI who can't really sing that well?
- no, a nerd with a MIDI who actually CAN sing well and can produce arrangements that work musically, even though in a different musical language from what most trad folkies are used to.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:55 AM

He is not a folksinger ar all, the beauty of folk song is that you can sing or play anywhere, Jim Moray is not much of a singer anyway
and he cant plug his computer in where there is no electric supply or a power cut.
Totally pretentious shite, but if he attracts some people into filk music who then go on to find good folk music, he then perhaps has done a good job.
eric

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:05 AM

Erm. He won an unaccompanied singing contest at Bromyard last year. Just saying...

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:17 AM

The only entry was he?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:19 AM

....this looks an interesting and potentially libelous thread !!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:28 AM

good init

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:42 AM

His new band - Jim, bass and drums - plays against strange films projected on a screen. I thought the performance was a worthy candidate for the the Turner Prize (I wonder what Turner would say!) or at least a grant from the Arts Council. On the way out I found that the Arts Council had already awarded him a grant.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:45 AM

It is crap isn't it? Come on - it can't just be me?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest - Disgusted of Dagenham
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:50 AM

Left me wondering 'What is this shit'

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:58 AM

He does have some admirers. Nominations for the Radio 2 Folk Awards;

BEST ALBUM
An Echo Of Hooves - June Tabor
Righteousness & Humidity - Martin Simpson
Sweet England - Jim Moray
Underneath The Stars - Kate Rusby

BEST TRADITIONAL TRACK
Early One Morning/Young Collins - Jim Moray
Hughie Graeme - June Tabor
Lord Bateman - Jim Moray
Prickle Eye Bush - John Spiers & Jon Boden

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:59 AM

Why are we subjected to this stuff ?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: fiddler
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:39 AM

Evolution!

lets all stay as monkey!

Tolerance

Lets Kill everyone who is not a folkie! (or should it be Non......like ourselves)

Give the man a break - Jim has an appeal - I don't like it too much but it is actually good and well presented.

Lets not all become bigoted and pretentious!

A

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Andrew
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:46 AM

Interesting reading this after the current thread -'is modern music shite ?'

I'm in no doubt what sort of music I would like 21 yr olds to develop. Saw him at Bromyard this year and really enjoyed his set, his stage style, his humour - in fact really enjoyed his set. Not sure that I would enjoy a CD as much, maybe i should buy one and decide.

Sure some songs I enjoyed more than others but name an artist that that doesn't apply to - could that be a new thread ? And my son who is 19 enjoyed it too. That's worth something as it isn't old farts like me that will keep the folk tradition going. Good on ya Jim.

And his dad is very proud of him ! Quite right too


Andrew

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:10 AM

The Folk Scene does need new blood, you are right Andrew and there some fine folks around 422, Ola, the Pack, Harriet Bartlett, Kate Rusby et al are all there and others whilst us sad old gits zimmer frame onto retirement. True Jim is innvative and what he's doing is unique but it's not for me and in saying that I'm not being a luddite, I'm just expressing my own view that however well created his music is, it just didn't do it for me.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:13 AM

Guest ? he probably got all his nominations from Mike Harding.
He describes every single thing he plays in superlatives, no one can
love everything that much.
eric

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,COMMENTATOR
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:18 AM

Thanks heavans for this thread. I thought it was only me.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:25 AM

I'm sorry that I missed Jim Moray at Preston recently, but it must be said that the publicity does set the hackles up. You know that when this kind of blurb is used, the prospect is of a load of pretentious crap: the prejudices are thus established before giving the man himself a fair chance. Presumably the argument is that enough people who like p.c. waffle are attracted to overcome the money lost from those put off.

There's a long tradition of criticising new musical approachs into folk - however good or bad they were, they acted as magnets for people who (for whatever reason) needed to "grow" into the hard core stuff rather than loving it at first encounter. Good luck to Jim Moray, it sounds as if he is doing something interesting, and (whether you or I like what he does or not) the effect can only be good for the folk "cause".

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:09 AM

Hi folks,

JM seems to be one of those artists who provoke extreme reactions when they first appear on the scene. But once their initial impact has been absorbed, such performers rarely seem as bad as their detractors have claimed - or as good as their supporters have asserted. Only time will tell.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that JM has great potential, but still has some way to go before discovering what his strengths are, and how he can make best use of them. Meanwhile, if people are willing to buy his records and attend his concerts, then he has an incentive (as well as a democratic right) to carry on experimenting. And listeners who have doubts about his experiments should wait a while before condemning him and all his works in perpetuity.   

Of course, it's possible that some other performers are sore because JM has gained so much attention in such a short time, while their own worthy efforts have remained ignored or undervalued for years.   If so, they should stop griping and start learning.   However high our ideals, and however "pure" our repertoire, if we charge people money to hear us sing and play, then we are in show business. And to thrive in show business, we must either learn to give the public what they want, or persuade the public to want what we have to give. Either way, promotion is essential:

"He who whispers down a well about the goods he has to sell
Will not make as many dollars as he who climbs a tree and hollers." (Anon)

So far, JM appears to have made a very good job of promoting his career. In due course, we may be able to reach an informed consensus on the lasting value of his contribution. But for the moment, let's give him some time to work out what he can do best, and avoid subjecting him to a flood of excessive praise, or a barrage of over-harsh criticism.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:47 AM

I am all for innovation and so on, and I really do wish Jim Moray well. I am not sure his music is as innovative as Fairport, Steeleye, Fotheringay for example were innovative in their day. Certainly every aspiring rock musician has no problems recording material in their bedroom as Jim did so nothing new there. I suggest that Jim has been at the receiving end of some excellent publicity and I suggest that that publicity has been cleverly orchestrated. No objections again - just that publicity does not equal talent and I reckon the jury is out on that one.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Jackie O
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:32 PM

Whilst I was quite dissappointed that this thread had been started again, after the occassionally hurtful nature of the last one, I've just used Mike of Northumbria's quote in my uni essay...so thanks for being so insightful!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Another view
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM

Folkiedave, I have seen many references over the last few months that refer to 'hype' 'publicity machine' 'purchased promotional success' 'orchestrated publicity' in the same context as Jim Moray. As someone who works in the music industry I'd like to take the chance to dispel a few myths about how people get coverage in the press.

First and foremost you cannot 'buy' press coverage. To get a press agent you must first convince the agent that your music will interest and warrant attention from the press. He or she does not want to look an idiot presenting something second rate to the press on whom he or she relies for his or her business. Also he or she does not want to be in the position of taking a client's money and delivering no press coverage. This also would be bad for business. So right from the start something of quality must be there in the music.

The agent will then present the artist and music to the press. While a great press release can be interesting to read, in the end it is once again the music that will convince the journalist, who understandably doesn't want to be seen to promote something that the rest of the world will not rate.

So Jim can pay a press agent but cannot buy reviews. He also cannot control what a journalist writes, good or bad, no more than he can control what you put on this messageboard.

If he gets great reviews it is because the people whose job it is to find great music, believe in what he is doing. While I know that Jim is hugely embarrassed by some of the compliments paid to him in the press, I would have to say that if those guys think there is something of merit in what he is doing then it might be worth giving it a second listening.

You might ask yourselves how much of the attention for Jim has been earned by paid for advertising. The truth is, almost none to date. So before you have a pop at Jim over the 'hype' take a look at what everyone else is doing.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:52 PM

I agree with Mike of Northumbria. I went to a concert at the Ham Marquee in Sidmouth with Dr Faustus followed by Jim Moray. My opinion might have been coloured by the hardness of the seating, but I found Jim's vocal style left me cold. Might grow on me later though.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:30 PM

So Kitty, didn't you stay for the closing act, the Demon Barber Roadshow? I nominated the entire concert in the 'Best Live Act' category for the BBC Folk Awards. Dr Faustus, Jim and the Demons - what an amazing combination!

And yes, thanks to Mike of Northumbria and 'Another View' for putting what has become the 'Moray phenomenen' into perspective. No-one is paid/bribed/coerced to attend his gigs nor to praise a performance in which they fail to see merit.

So you prefer to listen to other things? Then go ahead. Just don't criticise what you don't understand, as another often misrepresented artistic genius said.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Helen
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:41 PM

It is my opinion that even aside from the electronic stuff, Jim is a fantastic musician. Properly, really, inferiority-complex-generatingly-good. I think that anyone who can come up with arrangements like he does, however contraversial, deserves considerable credit. And just because they don't fit into people's interpretation of what is 'usual' doesn't mean they are not relevant, or are bad. OK, they might shock your ears if you're unused to people doing something different, but then, so do the tunings of, say, Javanese Gamelan, when first heard by the western ear. So do many modern classical compositions. So did composers such as Shostakovich and Vivaldi, in their day. Just because something is different to what you're used to, it isn't necessarily wrong.

For another thing, this way of rather publicly slagging someone off over the internet is a bit low, isn't it? It's like walking on stage during someone's gig and insulting them in front of their entire audience, their family, their next door neighbours and their dog. I bet none of you would dare do that.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM

To "Another View"

I think that is all very well in theory. In fact of course many journalists will use what they are given and if it is presented as new and innovative then they tend to bite.

If they know little about (for example) folk music do they go out and find out if what the publicity machine says is true? Err........I sincerely doubt it.

As for the judgement of music journalists.......don't believe everything you read in the newspapers.

"He's just twenty-one but he's single-handedly turning the English folk music world on its head".

"I think what I do is just folk music from the point of view of someone that has heard hip-hop and The Smiths and Ligetti and Joseph Taylor and Radiohead and S-Club, and doesn't differentiate past whether its good or not".

"The finished album 'Sweet England' is unlike anything else from the folk world". ( All taken verbatim from his website).

Well Jim and his publicity machine may believe those are truthful recommendations. I am afraid I don't.

Let me repeat what he does is great, he is a good singer. I do not have any objection to any of this, just that I like to see what the publicity says about Jim tested for truth. I remain to be convinced.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Singer
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:45 PM

I saw his unnacompanied performance at Bromyard, he did the Bonny Black Hare. It was different to say the least. I thought he was taking the p*ss!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:12 PM

Countess Richard

I originally went to the Ham Marquee because I wanted to see the Demon Barber Roadshow. I left because I didn't want to hear any more of Jim Moray. But like I said, he might grow on me later. I was talking to somebody at Herga on Monday who said she'd seen Martin Carthy 3 times and she didn't rate him. It's all pretty subjective.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:05 AM

I tend to agree with that last bit.

I was totally knocked out by a number of artists on hearing them for the first time. Martin Carthy was not amongst them - loved the sound but hating the constant tuning up. As a non-guitarist and pretty un-musical person I never realised he was changing the tunings and thought it was an irritating affection!

If anyone wants to hear another way that folk music can be treated innovatingly I reckon the Guichen Quartet are as good as anything - though they are Breton/Irish.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Morris-ey
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:19 AM

Personally I quite like the "treatments" he gives to the songs but cannot get on at all with his voice which drives me up the wall.

Nor do I think the music press (and folk music pundits in particular) do him any favours with the hype they broadcast. What he is doing is not new or particularly innovative - even in folk circles. I doubt that he will have any influence at all in bringing non-folkies into the fold despite his youth and electronic wizardry but good luck to him anyway.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:47 AM

Knocking Martin Carthy doesn't make Jim Moray any better.
eric

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 06:41 AM

If I have given the impression that I was knocking ANYONE then let me withdraw. I am not enamoured with Jim's publicity and I remain to be convinced the hype is true. His singing is fine.

I certainly was NOT knocking Martin Carthy who remains to my mind one of the most influential post-war singers. I was saying that the first time I saw him I found his constant tuning up (as I, in my ignorance thought it was) an irritation.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 06:54 AM

Helen, are you seriously suggesting that an internet discussion board, devoted to folk music, should not permit people to say what they do and don't like about performers, their art and their publicity? Why ever not?

There's no comparison to interrupting a live performance. I could comment on people who walk in and out to the bar/their seats in the middle of songs, which I think very bad manners.

OK, on the net sometimes things are not phrased in the most tactful manner, and perhaps would not be said in quite the same way to the artist face-to-face. I think most of us are grown-up about that, and do make some allowance in what we read.

The bottom line is that a performer is making a public display of himself, and the public are entitled to comment on it.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:16 AM

Surely to goodness if Moray and his crew wish to court publicity they shouldn't be surprised that not everybody is falling over themselves to say how wonderful Moray is! He's a very ordinary singer with a grasp of technical know-how and a good publicity machine. He is not the saviour of folk music or any other music come to that although obviously intending to use the poor put upon folk world as a spring board to a more commercially viable genre.

And its no good Countess Richard leaping down peoples throats just because they express an opinion that is not in line with her own!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:29 AM

I only said nobody's forcing you to listen, Guest. Play what you like, go to whoever's concerts you like.   So long as it's what YOU think. Though it sounds as though you base your opinions on what a mate said....

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:42 AM

What gives you that idea? And having looked Jim Moray up via the knowledge search I see the Countess to be very prominent as regards Jim Moray publicity on this forum.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,COMMENTATOR
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:44 AM

Well said Santa. It is patently obvious from the response to the original question that the jury is still out regarding JM and what he has to offer but if he clever he will listen to the deserved criticisms, take them on board as all professionals should do, as all and react accordingly.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: fiddler
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:49 AM

The fact that he has got you all taking and arguing quite vociferously means he is making you think so already has one huge success to chalk up!

My 16 yr old daughter worhips both him and his music - she can wear a CD out in 2 Days. Look at the ageist comments on the folk awards threads!

give hiom space - he'll sink or swim or praps just float for a while bu it is a pleasure having him there and see him making an impact in so many ways - all useful.

A

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:06 AM

Guest, I got it from your original post. And no, I'm not on Jim Moray's payroll.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Jason King
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:31 AM

Santa, I think you've missed the point in Helen's comments somehow.

Yes this site is devoted to folk music and it is great that it allows people to express their opinions but in this case the musical criticism is getting totally mixed up with criticism of Jim in general. Even if people don't like his music, it is not fair to use terms such as 'nerd' and suggest he can't sing, as they do not know anything about him other than what is presented through the distorting nature of the media.

The folk music world is a lot smaller and more personal than other genres and so the artists themselves, and their families and friends do read what is being written about them and are going to get upset and hurt by it. Why should anyone have to take slagging off such as this from people who have no real reason for saying it?

This messageboard has already had a go at ripping Jim apart once, I think its time to leave him alone to get on with doing what he does. He is a musician who has come to recieve the success he has through musical talent and is making a public display of himself for the music alone.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:51 AM

OK, fair's fair, I went back and re-read what Helen said. No, I don't think I did misunderstand.

Passing comment on a web-page is nothing like "walking on stage during someone's gig and insulting them in front of their entire audience, their family, their next door neighbours and their dog". I think I mentioned that some people go over the top on the net, but the term "nerd" is in fairly common use for someone who is heavily into computers/electronics, and that does seem to fit here. My daughter treats the term as a compliment. You should hear her on "townies"....

As for "no real reason", I think that a love of anything can generate a lot of emotion for its protection, clearly folk music enthusiasts are no different there. People should rise up in defence whenever they see something good under threat. Whether Jim's music actually threatens anything is another matter - I'm not going there until I've heard it.

I find this discussion has been informative, but agree that it doesn't seem to be going anywhere new, people are beginning to repeat themselves.

Mind you, anyone who takes their dog to a concert of amplified electronic music deserves all the criticism they get. (Joke. OK?)

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Dear me
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 02:17 PM

FolkieDave admits he is 'un-musical' and Santa admits he hasn't heard the music yet but is quite happy to join in a slagging match nevertheless. I think everyone who joined this discussion who is a folk musician jealous of Jim's success should hold their hands up now! Where's Mike of Northumbria, a sane voice in a world, when you need him.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Santa
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 02:54 PM

dear me, Dear me.

I'm not slagging his music, maybe his publicity; nor am I a folk musician, nor ever likely to be one. There are more points made in this discussion than those just limited to mere music. It's about people and their peculiarities, a never-ending source of interest.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:30 PM

When I say I am un-musical I mean I don't read music and didn't understand the technicalities of guitar playing at that time. The folk scene needs people who will run folk clubs and festivals and use organisational skills as well as it needs musicians. They are entitled to thier opinion regarding artists capabilities and talents especially as they are often backing it with hard cash.

Since Jim's defenders/supporters seem unable to read carefully what people write, let me say again I think Jim is a good singer. I do not think his record is as innovative as the publicity claims. I am happy to stand by both of those statements.

Regards,

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk