BS: Guest Postings

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 04:39 AM

Nigel why on earth do you now post this - implying that this thread had not been closed and suggesting that I was mistaken in thinking that it had?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 06:15 AM

Strange, according to Shambles in This thread this thread has been closed, and he is asking Joe Why?
Could it be that he has read the post above this with its "Last Post Here" blicky, and he thinks it ia a closing message?

When you had earlier posted this, with quotes from Joe clearly explaining that it had in fact been closed and later re-opened - if not the reasons why?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 08:34 PM

Shambles is, of course correct in his above post (04 Jan 04: 03.02PM) where he quotes:
"You're right, Shambles, it WAS closed - from 22 December to 23 December. It was closed due to a miscommunication between volunteers, for which I apologize. I reopened the thread on 23 December, as soon as I found that it had been closed. Sorry for the inconvenience">Snip<

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Splott Man
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 07:31 AM

I've got nothing to say on this issue.

I just wanted to be posting No 300

regards

Splott Man

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 09:05 AM

How will it drop while you keep posting? Follow your own advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 06:22 AM

Oh for pity's sake let the matter drop

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 06:15 AM

Strange, according to Shambles in This thread this thread has been closed, and he is asking Joe Why?
Could it be that he has read the post above this with its "Last Post Here" blicky, and he thinks it ia a closing message?

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Micca
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 11:59 AM

Rather tan dual post I would refer you to the last Post here

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:59 PM

*smiles*

And LOL from a mad person. We must both be mad to be awake at this hour. Goodnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:45 PM

yes, that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:33 PM

John is that the post you started by saying?

shammblels-you are a mad person, why dont you just shut up?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 06:16 AM

john please let this thread die...that matter has been delt with.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 09:47 PM

mr shambles-you never answered my last post.john

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 02:00 AM

BTW Nigel - I did get a PM (from Joe) - on the 30th December. Perhaps you could find out and explain to us why this thread was closed and by whom? And why it was re-opened?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 04:32 AM

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzz......

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST,Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 04:18 AM

Hello Mick, I try to avoid reading the bottom but have just learned my name has been brought into this stupid thread.

Just for the record, every gripe I had about the operation of this place was resolved . It is a shame I made an enemy of myself in doing so and perhaps issuses would have been addressed anyway. For the record, the issuses were mostly poor (IMO) security, failure to deal with constant bitching over BS (some form of split or filtering was clearly the only way the matter could be resolved and I like the solution), and what I considered to be general neglect. I for sure wish I didn't go as far as I did in my attempts but that is life...

I've no regrets over starting folkinfo which is slowly but surely building up a collection of songs in abc format and while I do choose not to post as a member here, there is no animosity between the sites that I'm aware of. T'was only the other day we had someone asking about chords to some Andean tune and I pointed them here to get a wider audience...

Joe and his censorship policy has rarely been an issue to me. I don't think any 2 people are ever going to agree on every deletion action but overall, Joe very much has my respect in this department and always has had.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 01:47 AM

I simply disagree that power, such as it is, is being abused. I have read many of the examples of claimed abuse, and I see simple differences of opinion. The few times real mistakes have been made, they have been corrected as soon as possible. (and usually, apologies issued)

The point is that when these mistakes are made - a simple apology is not enough if lessons are not going to be learnt and the same mistakes are just going to be repeated again and again - as happens currently.

Changes that to be need to be made - like ensuring that communication between volunteers takes place before editing action is made, are simply not taking place. The differences of opinion that matter most are the personal value judgements of and between our volunteers - because they will result in the opinions of other posters being judged and censored from our forum.

Nigel - I apolgise for not being perfect and for not noticing that this thread had been re-opened. Perhaps you (or someone) could have informed me that it had - via PM?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 08:34 PM

Shambles is, of course correct in his above post (04 Jan 04: 03.02PM) where he quotes:
"You're right, Shambles, it WAS closed - from 22 December to 23 December. It was closed due to a miscommunication between volunteers, for which I apologize. I reopened the thread on 23 December, as soon as I found that it had been closed. Sorry for the inconvenience"
However, what he fails (somehow) to mention is that this was in response to his post on 30 December (when the thread had already been re-opened for 7 days)

Clearly in his search for the truth, and an 'accountable' Mudcat, he took a week to prepare this single message, and did not take the step of checking whether his information was still accurate by the time he posted the message.

Shambles will still, of course, insist that everyone else check "The Facts" (according to Shambles) before commenting on the issue.
I, for one, am tiring of his anarchistic attitude, and will try to avoid further continuation of this thread.

Shambles post & the reply


Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 07:07 PM

shammblels-you are a mad person, why dont you just shut up?
anyway, = you keep saying " this is our forum",
it isnt, it is max's forum!
max owns the computer that its on, he pays for the internet service it uses, he pays for the phone line, he pays for the software used, and he pays for every other thing involeved in keeping this place going.
he started this place as a hobby, about 8 years ago, he does not charge any of us to use it, [if you want to send a few pounds, you can., but you dont have to]

anyway=my main point is=this is max site, he can run it exactly how he wants, he asked Joe, to help him run it, [joe is retired, and max has got job, wife kids etc to look after],
max is happy with the way joe helps, so why dont you just shut up?

you moan to much " joe is no good, he deltes too much, etc, blar , blar, blar", you moan too much=
if you got a problem with this site, why dont you talk straight to max?
i suggested this before, but you dident listen.
anyway=max might tell you 2get lost and mind your business.

another anyway=, you moan about here, but did you see the BBC folk music message boards?
[its only open a few hours a day, and heavily moderated, loadss of cencorship ie [for example], if you put " kate rusby is crap", it would be deltedeted in seconds, so just shut up.john

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST,Sian........a real Sian.
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 04:37 PM

Hitherto I shall be known as anon guest then.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 04:20 PM

Term-agent also known as "Loopie Rocks" or "Sian" in one of his more sneaky personas has always been our biggest crackpot and the most blatantly abusive of our memebers towards others. I for one am tired of it. He uses GUEST as a coverup for his need to discharge rage.

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (ring a bell, Loopie Rocks?)

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 04:11 PM

Termagent..it is hard to raise one's eyebrows in surprise using only ASCII characters...but really.."Max is a paranoid authoritarian type"????....have you ever met Max? I have - and I don't know whether to laugh out loud or just sit and stare at that ludicrous assertion! It's just plain silly...

well, I said I was gonna stop, except for PMs(yeah, that DOES exclude anonymous posters)...so I am.

I simply disagree that power, such as it is, is being abused. I have read many of the examples of claimed abuse, and I see simple differences of opinion. The few times real mistakes have been made, they have been corrected as soon as possible. (and usually, apologies issued)

I believe that in a public forum, some control needs to be exercised, and that Max has designated 2 good people to oversee that process (Joe and Pene Azul). I realize that a few will see ANY activity by the volunteers (clones) as suspicious---I can't help that, and I see I can't convince them otherwise. There is really little else to say.

further, deponent sayeth not

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 03:19 PM

Man! Ize getting obssessively paranoid, and hysterically xenophobic.

Ooooowwwweeeoooooo!

The truth is out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Totally spooked,

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 03:02 PM

Bill - Not guilty to "petty tyranny"......

Whatever term you may choose it is now a fact that our 'clones' are not operating as you wish me and everyone else to accept that they are operating and that the witch hunt has resulted in them falsely accusing a member of sending abusive postings.

Perhaps Bill you could address how these mistakes can be prevented and how communication between our 'clones'/ volunteers can take place as you wish me to accept that it currently does?

The following refers to this thread and was publicly posted on another one.....

You're right, Shambles, it WAS closed - from 22 December to 23 December. It was closed due to a miscommunication between volunteers, for which I apologize. I reopened the thread on 23 December, as soon as I found that it had been closed. Sorry for the inconvenience
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST,Termagant
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 01:28 PM

Bill D appears to be catching on. Yes Bill, we really are saying that Joe and the clones are abusing their power.

Some of us predicted this sort of petty tyranny and arbitrary censorship would be the outcome of Joe Offer and the clones being given authority to moderate the forum, when the Mudcat makeover was announced back in the day.

Max is a paranoid authoritarian type, and the acorn never falls far from the tree. Hence the Mudcat guard dogs being who and what they are.

The terms 'witch hunt' and 'McCarthyism' are certainly applicable here, both in the context Shambles has used it, and in the context that anon guest has used it. The obsession of the clones wanting to 'expose' anonymous/pseudonymous posters in this forum is reminiscent of the 'outing' of communists, gays, etc. The stalking of certain posters here, and the censorship of their posts/threads, is just plain creepy. Not because moderation of chat forums is creepy, but because of the obsessive/complusive way the process is shrouded in secrecy and surrounded by forum intrigues. Considering how little is truly at stake here, one can only put such behavior down to petty tyranny and arbitrary censorship.

And then there is the handful of members (just have a look at any Mudcat threads with the word "GUEST" in the title to see who the usual suspects are) who use this place as their retirement/shut-in clubhouse, and who foster a hysterical, xenophobic environment that keeps this dysfunctional game between the Mudcat ruling elite, the Mudcat royals, and "guests" going.

So yes, Bill D. It is fabulous to see you understanding that some of us are criticizing what we see as an abuse of power and authority here, which is far beyond the pale of reasonable forum moderation. It is just such petty and arbitrary action which fosters the paranoid, hysterical, xenophobic environment so many people perpetually complain about.

Please explain it to all your Mudcat friends now, won't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 12:45 PM

yes, I see I actually did say "bootlicker" first... so stipulated. Perhaps it is advancing age. Mea culpa

Shambles only introduced "Witchfinder General","inquisitorial gaze", "willing disciples", "paranoid fever","heavy handed", "Petty tyranny" "snitchers corner" "clumsy and ill-directed censorship" and "authoritarian posturing".

Some of the terms just noted led me to the conclusion that Joe and some clones were being accused of abusing their power

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST,Termagant
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 12:12 PM

"...so, if you know it's not going to change, you also know that your own attitude is the only thing you can change about it."

That is correct. So why do so many of you continue whining/whinging about people who don't share your views about how you think people "should" post in this forum? Hmmmm...what's good for the goose, m'dear.

BTW, I would like to send an enthusiastic "hear, hear" to akenaton!

"Acrimony and Amity are not comfortable bedmates."

But they usually find ways to live together in all human relationships, don't they?

Pardon me while I gag on the saccharine, cheap sentiments being expressed by the Warriors for the Mudcat Status Quo (tm) about this wonderful, quaint little internet backwater...

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 05:22 AM

Bill you do seem to have trouble with facts. It is a clear fact that in this thread you accused me of damaging my case by introducing terms like 'bootlicker'. It is also a fact that I pointed out the it was you that introduced this concept. The (humourous) manner in which you introduced it, I really have no trouble with but it remains a demonstrable fact that it was your introduction.

It is also a clear fact that the evidence presented in this thread (and which you still choose just to ignore) is that 'the clones' are NOT simply acting in the way you expect me to accept that they are.

You have also introduced into this thread and attributed to me the following-

YOU began the issue by claiming that Joe and/or the clones were abusing their power

Shambles....you have much to say and contribute on matters OTHER THAN whether the forum management is biased & corrupt.

The problem is that many later readers will assume that is what I have said and jump on the defensive bandwagon - when careful reading of my posts will show that it is not.

Asking for the censorship, moving, editing of other people's contributions and the irreversable nature of this action taken in response - without the poster's knowledge or consent - remains to me -a BIG DEAL. It does not show the level of respect toward our contributions that has been accepted as best practice on our forum over many years.

If it were done ONLY to abusive postings - as this action is defended on - this may be acceptable to many - but the evidence provided here proves that it is NOT only limited to abusive postings.

I am just concerned that recent evidence (provided in this thread) suggests that far from being seen as a BIG DEAL - censorhip action based only on the value judgements of a number of 'clones' is now being taken as routine and without the consultation that we are informed is necessary, even of BS in The BS Section!

We all make mistakes but the hope is always that will learn from these mistakes and not repeat them. I would just like to see what measures will be taken to ensure that these mistakes will not be repeated.

As for the majority view? I suspect the the majority of posters are happily posting music posts - unaware of the so-called 'debate' taking place here, in the second division. The majority view is probably split between those who consider this to be an unmoderated forum and those who think that the site is owned by Joe Offer and he can do as he wishes. Neither of which are in fact true....but neither are much corrected..................

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 09:38 PM

"One thing I do agree with. It isn't going to change, as long as Max owns the server, and the current crop of clones remain in charge. To be sure, there is no other online folk music forum I have encountered that has this level of ill will towards the people who use the forum, either occassionally or regularly."

It's not important who said that but its message seems elemental. From the very early years of school, and even before that, with one's own siblings, we all have to learn to live with obvious limits- so, if you know it's not going to change, you also know that your own attitude is the only thing you can change about it.

Secondly, the 'ill will' of the people on the Mudcat seems almost entirely a component of SOME Guests and some others who perceive a problem on the Mudcat that they can't live with - or without. Almost every Mudcatter I have 'met' much prefers things to be enlightening, funny, friendly, supportive, and even loving. Acrimony and Amity are not comfortable bedmates. As they say, a 'soft answer turneth away wrath'. Besides it bugs the bejeebers out of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 04:29 PM

The last post was to me,the biggest load of psycho-babble that iv ever heard. If were going to be an interesting and caring forum, weve got to say things that actually mean something. If I read another post like that I shall walk into the Atlantic Ocean till my bunnet floats ...Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Tinker
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 04:17 PM

One of the first ground rules of any " sensible debate" is to come to agree on the terms being used. My definition of community is far, far from the one Shambles brings to the table.

My working definition of community is based around the work of Ficino and the concept of convivium. It is not all "accepting and inclusive" which to me would best be included in a definition of anarchy. Anachry accepts barbarism. Jerry and I could probably play with these ideas for days, because our basic definitions are coming from similar places. .

"The convivium is rest from labours, release from cares and nourishment of genius; it is the demonstration of love and splendour, the food of good will, the seasoning of friendship, the leavening of grace and the solace of life… Everything should be seasoned with the salt of genius and illumined by the rays of mind and manners.""

Shambles ( or anyone else) if you want to PM me and play with the words and concepts I'd love to. But not as an attack on a fluid community that attempts to maintain humane dimensions and values. Mudcat (to me) is a "definition in process" of this model.
I will not post to this thread again, but I enjoyed the exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 03:25 PM

"you were the one who first proudly claimed to licking boots " ...ummm, if tongue-in-cheek cynicism is lost on you, I give up.

"if you can produce the evidence of the clones working as you wish me to accept that they do - then provide the evidence that will convince me."    ...as I remember the order of things, YOU began the issue by claiming that Joe and/or the clones were abusing their power. There is a principle in debate that states that the burden of proof is on the assertor. I am not sure why I, or anyone else needs to 'prove' that they are not if we simply don't see your assertion to be true.
   Your statement "This is not a matter of opinion it is a matter of fact." kind of leaves me baffled. How can anyone debate or discuss if we can't agree on a basic issue of whether it IS or is NOT a fact?

You go on to say .." But that does not mean that I have ignore the evidence and change my view because it may be a minority one "

indeed...if you believe this, I guess you just believe it. As to majority/minority, I don't remember seeing many others (except for anonymous jabs) agreeing with you, while there are many long-time members who are sad and upset with your claims.

The question is, of course, what should we all do at this point if we can't convince each other? You say you intend to remain here, finding some virtues in Mudcat, I assume, that are NOT corrupted by some sort of 'underground elite'.

I would suggest then, that we ALL go back to posting about music, making jokes, trading information and debating the important (and trivial) issues of the world as best we can....and that IF you see specific, egregious evidence of editing and censorship that you deem unreasonable, then call attention to it. And...IF you are overruled, then shrug! This long, contentious claim & counter-claim.."yes you did", "no I didn't" accomplishes little.

I have tried to figure out how to say all this without it sounding like I am just telling you to "like it or lump it", but I suspect that's how you will read it. Perhaps that IS the only thing to say to someone with your views, as the fact remains that "Our Forum" is not a democracy. It is some sort of Oligarchy or Enlightened Despotism...but one that 'most' or its members feel ok with most of the time.

Shambles....you have much to say and contribute on matters OTHER THAN whether the forum management is biased & corrupt. I hope you will do that....

So...as of now, I will NOT debate this issue with you in public threads any more. I will try to answer PMs if you wish,(though I am not the decision maker) and if it seems there is any progress in understanding to be made that way.

I care about this place, I know others do and I assume YOU do....we just have different views. We CAN all co-exist here if we work at minimizing our differences......

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 02:34 PM

Having met most of those Shambles rallies against, and knowing them to be oh so human, and, oh so diverse, this thread leaves me more wistful than angry.

Kathy I have tried hard not to rally against any individual and I have tried very hard not to do this when replying to the many less than charitable posts directed at me. I will repeat that the issue is not one of personalities and I will continue to try and stick to the point that I am trying to make and to encourage a sensible debate. I am sorry if calling for a sensible debate makes you angy.

The humanity and diversity of our well-intentioned clones has never been in question. [Clone is a word used to describe those few entrusted with an edit button and as far as I am aware it not a derogatory word and it is their word not one of mine]

As far as I am concerned I have been a positive contributor to our forum for many years and remain very much a member of this community.
But surely the true test of any community is how accepting and inclusive it can demonstrate itself to be?

Sadly I see far too much exclusion being tolerated and encouraged and this inward-looking siege mentality is using censorship and deletions to shape this community when it should be being shaped by freedom of expression and all of our contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 12:32 PM

For even more seasoning, Tinker, add wackiness and silliness. Fun is one of the main ingredients in here..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Tinker
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 12:06 PM

"peace and humility".... Jerry I'd have to expand the spectrum to include Rowdy Joviality... and the ability to harmonize on the chorus

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 11:27 AM

What a beautiful posting, Tinker!

You know, we have no reason to be defensive. And you are right... we are a diverse coming together of people. A true community has unity, not uniformity.

As for being bearers of "The Truth," truth is measured by its fruits.
Look at the fruits of Mudcat! When someone like Walking Eagle is struggling with depression, we are all their in openness and honesty.
We trust each other enough to share all of our weaknesses... our bouts with alcoholism, mental illness, lack of faith, confusion and at times, even hopelessness. And, it's not just members. Read Guest's thread on Mental blocks. This is a Guest who has opened up their own desire to feel that wonderful creative flow when everything is working "right," when you're playing music. This is not someone who comes in claiming to know the secret to creativity. This is someone coming in in honesty, and humility. The responses to the thread have been a genuine attempt to better understand the whole process of creativity. And, read the thread on Joe Pas started by an 80 year old Guest, Navigator. It was a delightful thread.

The fruits of Mudcat are compassion, honesty, mutual dependence, encouragement, humor (not sarcasm) and sharing.

Look at the fruits of the self-proclaimed "Truth" bearing Guests: Judgment, cynicism, bitterness, antagonism, self-centeredness, and a lack of humility.

I am proud of Mudcat. I see the good in the people who come in here, including many Guests. I appreciate Joe and Max and the others who give so unselfishly of themselves so that we have this place to enjoy each other. I will not use the Guest term "clones." That is an insulting, judgmental word. There aren't any clones in Mudcat. We are all ourselves, whether we are Christians, Buddhists, Agnostics or Atheists. We enjoy each other, even if we don't all enjoy the same kind of music, and live in very different cultures. Our sharing enriches each other.

Years ago, I had a good friend who was a terrible cynic. She didn't believe you could trust anyone, that "need" was just another four letter word and that tomorrow was a threat, not a promise. And yet she was very drawn to the conversations and correspondence I chared with Art Thieme for so many years. I always pictured her as a wild animal, attraced to a glowing bonfire in the woods. There were people gathered around the fire, talking, singing and enjoying each other's company. She liked to come and lurk in the darkenss, just beyond the reach of the light, and there was am attraction that she couldn't resist. But, she never was able to overcome her cynicism, her lack of faith in the goodness of people or the depressed state she was in.

The truth will set you free. I see freedom as openness, humility, unselfishness, compassion, sharing and love. "Free" is not bitterness, cynicism and being judgmental. People who are bitter, cyncial and judgmental are in a prison of their own making. They are the key holders, and like you, Tinker, I feel a great sadness that people can't just come up and join us at the fire. It's warm up here. We don't claim to know the Truth. We are searchers, and in our incompleteness we come together to offer each other encouragement, and occasional wisdom that is not our own.

Hail Mudcat! For such imperfect creatures, we're doing pretty good..

And to our Guests... come and sit down by the fire. You are always welcome if you can find it in your heart to come in peace and humility.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Tinker
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 10:20 AM

Community is an illusive idea especially to those who find themselves unable to join. Fortunately it is full of paradox… A sweet communion of individual differences. There are always those who feel the best way to enter is to send in the storm troopers and create a new order where they can be comfortable. But in a true community it only rallies those who have found shelter and the pleasure of living within relationships.   

Having met most of those Shambles rallies against, and knowing them to be oh so human, and, oh so diverse, this thread leaves me more wistful than angry.   They don't sing the same music or live comparable lives but they are all folks I am proud to be in community with in the real world and the virtual.

Yes, in the real world a non profit of the age and stage of Mudcat should be ripe for take over. But Mudcat is community not corporation. Those who rally loudest are those who have yet to figure out how to open their own doors and join the music. The door here is still open... the songs continue.


Kathy

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 09:00 AM

Once again you set yourself up as the martyr, Shambles. Hell, you've been doing it for all the years I have known you.

There are many anon posters here that are fine contributing folks. There are two or three specific GUESTS who like to create a problem and then say "see, there is a problem". They are classic trolls. When I see them using multiple identities to create a problem and then ambush decent folks who respond, I take 'em on. You trolls consistently try to imply that there are many of you out there, but the PM's I get run 10 to 1 in support of taking the piss out of you. You imply that folks are hugely dissatisfied, yet this site remains one of the most popular, and in the main it is populated with decent and noteworthy folks.

I won't even ask you to leave, because you revel in that. Rather I am just telling you that I will expose your stupid crap. Jerry Rassmussen said it best. He is an example of the best among us. He uses this place for interesting discussion, and to inspire goodness. He also uses it for research. And most importantly, he loves its sense of community.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 08:30 AM

"bend notes on Piano Cccordions",

Question! If it's possible to bend notes on a moothie, then why not on an accordian?

This is not a spurious posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST,Gene Burton
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 07:20 AM

I would just like to take this opportunity to state my complete and implacable opposition to absolutely everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 06:41 AM

Borrowing some words from Amos

I don't FEAR anonymous posters. The main thing that gets me going is not anonymity but anti-social posts which are couched in vague and negative generalizations, broad condemnations unsupported by specifics, and other stock in trade of the pusillanimous.

The other thing is that when someone says some interesting, there is no way to contact them to ask to follow up on it. Like when some anonymous GUEST said they know how to "bend notes on Piano Cccordions", I suspected that they were just spouting crap (which as it turns out they were!), but I always am prepared to to discover something that I don't know and learn some thing new.

I now totally distrust anything said by anonymous GUESTs in this place - but might be prepared to take some notice of those "named GUESTS" who always use the same moniker - but there is no guarantee against ANYONE using such a moniker.

I think this discussion has gone around in circles for long enough - it's covering no new ground.

If it is still grinding away in a few days time, I shall start posting songs in here... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 05:44 AM

I reiterate, NO POSITIVE CRITICISM! Please state not only what you dislike about the status quo, but what you would like to see put in its place. Perhaps you would like to start a thread of suggestions for changes in the running of Mudcat, and throw the subject open to discussion. Or is your paranoia so deep that you immediately think everybody will disagree with you no matter what. There is no compulsion to partake in the activities of the Mudcat, and if any of the carpers think they can do better, then why don't they try starting their own website. It's not all beer and skittles!
I have now said all I am going to on this thread, and so I wish ALL of you a happy new year.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 02:09 AM

"--and I suppose that the only evidence otherwise will be when we all "see the light" and agree with YOU, Shambles?

Do you not even see the possibility that most of those "supporting the current system" are not doing it 'blindly'?

This is not a matter of opinion it is a matter of fact. But if folk wish to believe what they do - despite the facts there is little I can do. But that does not mean that I have ignore the evidence and change my view because it may be a minority one - if indeed it is a minority one?

This is our forum for our views - if you don't like me expressing those views - don't open the thread. Bill if you can produce the evidence of the clones working as you wish me to accept that they do - then provide the evidence that will convince me.

Do I have to convince you that the world is indeed round and will you continue to slag me off personally - until despite the evidence I accept that it is flat? Ignoring the reality, just attacking me and accusing me of introducing words and concepts like 'bootlicker', when you were the one who first proudly claimed to licking boots is hardly going to convince me or anyone else that your view of what the clones are doing is a correct view and can be demonstrated.

For folks who may not have read this from the beginning it may be as well to remind them at this point that this thread was asking for ideas as the original poster had been written to and wrongly accused by one of our clones of writing abusive postings.

I am just suggesting that when the witch hunt is earnestly burning the wrong people - it may be time to review the situation to prevent others from suffering from the paranoid fever that drives it.....

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 12:33 AM

There is no reason to fear anonymous posters. Why should anyone? The only thing that gets the dander up around here is not anonymity but anti-social posts which are couched in vague and negative generalizations, broad condemnations unsupported by specifics, and   other stock in trade of the pusillanimous.

Why not tell the truth over your own name, and stand for it? That's a kind of honesty that others can respect and understand.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 11:26 PM

Was just watching Bill Moyers, and in a discussion about evil, he mentioned two quotes about people's fear of the truth. The first is a Turkish quote:

"The man who speaks the truth will be run out of nine villages."

The other attribution I can't recall. But the quote was:

"Tell the truth, then run."

People who speak the truth to fearful people (and Mudcat is a place where many, many people fear anonymous posters) pay a high price, always.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 10:12 PM

These days, I am reminded of an endless rash of nasty Guest postings a year ago. It was so disgusting that it was almost enough to make me throw up my hands and give up on Mudcat. Finally, someone must have sung Send In The Clones, and Joe, Max and the others came riding to the rescue and got rid of all the garbage that was being posted. Life was very peaceful and enjoyable for almost a year. What does all this ugliness accomplish?

Some folks get their jollies in the sickest ways.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 10:06 PM

"...amazingly we still have people blindly supporting the current system and ignoring the evidence of how poorly it is performing,"

--and I suppose that the only evidence otherwise will be when we all "see the light" and agree with YOU, Shambles?

Do you not even see the possibility that most of those "supporting the current system" are not doing it 'blindly'?



"In the devil's theology, the important thing is to be absolutely
right and prove everyone else is absolutely wrong." - Thomas Merton

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 08:19 PM

GUEST 02 Jan 04 - 01:43 PM

"Jeri's McCarthyite tendencies aren't that difficult to avoid if you don't get involved in the "personal attack" drama in the forum, and stick to the music stuff up top."

-- I guess that's why I've missed her "McCarthyite tendencies" then, because, you're right, I don't get involved in the "personal attack" drama in the forum, although I probably spend the majority of my time in the "lower 40" area (the B.S. area).

I will bid you good day, then, and wish you well as we depart in different directions.

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:10 PM

It's a bit like democracy, not a perfect system, but the best we've tried so far.

With the greatest of respect it is nothing like democracy (not even its supporters make that claim for it) – it simply does not work and it is the only thing tried so far.

If we only had one person making value judgements and censoring what they considered as not suitable on our forum and responding to complaints about what other's post – it would be bad enough but there are a number of people doing this and not communicating. The Memorial Thread and this one are but two examples of the way the current system works – or rather does not work because the clones do not consult together, and act as we are told they are supposed to.

I can't see that anyone would like any form of censorship but it is not the fact that I do not like this form of arbitrary unaccountable censorship (especially of the BS section) – the blind acceptance of which I also consider to be dangerous. But I have not just objected or made general statements - I have produced the evidence in this thread that has clearly and finally demonstrated that the system does not work. And that the way many people honestly believe it is supposed to work – is not actually what is happening. I have also made many positive alternative suggestions.

You may have expected this to be the start of a sensible debate on how things could be improved - but amazingly we still have people blindly supporting the current system and ignoring the evidence of how poorly it is performing, how counter-productive these measures have been and completely ignoring the separate section set aside for BS or off-topic postings……..Perhaps we can start this sensible debate now?

From the earliest days of our forum there were two main problems – neither confined to this forum. These were quite different problems but the same blunt instrument was and is still being used to combat them – as if they were the same problem.

The first problem –- was abusive postings. After requests to Max to do something – the Guest idea was born – and that solved that problem didn't it? We now appear to be in agreement that the only answer to this problem is to ignore and to encourage others to ignore these abusive postings. After all of this time, this still appears to be too difficult for many of our regular posters to manage.

The second problem was off-topic threads.

We now have a separate BS section where off-topic subjects are confined. This measure alone you may think would finally put and end to this second problem and for control? But no – even though anyone opening a BS thread will not surprisingly find BS – the need to control our contributions to our forum to a shape that is acceptable to our Witchfinder General's personal concept of order and control - continues - even in the BS section!

Like many other posters, the BS section does not really attract me very much but I can see no need to use exactly the same controls in this section as are thought necessary on the main forum. It has a useful function as a safety net – but it has to be permitted to operate as such. Perhaps anyone complaining on the Help forum (or elsewhere) that they are offended by anything they open on the BS section can simply be told not to open these threads? Then our clones could confine their censoring actions to the main forum or better still hand back their edit buttons to Max?

When janitors start to see their job as deciding what pupils to exclude - instead of keeping the school tidy – perhaps it is time to thank them for their efforts and say goodbye?

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 04:20 PM

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bomb.php

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 04:16 PM

Why dont you all shut the fuck up!
Dont you realise what sad OLD bastards we are .
Most of us just want a warm place to curl up and die.
Guests....Your self obsession is just "rage against the going of the light"

Subject: RE: BS: Guest Postings
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 03:47 PM

Valid constructive criticism of the forum and it's moderators simply isn't tolerated here.

This is the core of the matter and I feel it is a misstatement of fact. I have often suggested ways to improve things and been heard either in silence or with acknowledgment, but certainly with tolerance. I have seen intolerance toward snideness and carping and passive-aggressive backstabbing, but not of constructive criticism offered in a spirit of friendship, if you know what I mean.

A