Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: NobleSavage
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:22 AM

Mr. Hardly--

Might one ask you to explain the difference between "faith" and "belief"?

Just curious.

NS

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:11 AM

In America consumerism is the Guiding Light. More Americans worship at Walmart on a Sunday than in churches, imo.

Freda and Willie-O, there's no money in anything which does not have holidays, so...if Walmart etc. can't make a go of it, it just won't catch on!**bg**

Ron, I love some of the old songs, too, although they were not emphasised much when I was growing up. We were left to figure out what we believed in on our own with some guidance from my mom and dad. Now, though I am pagan(ish), I do still sing Nearer My God to Thee (sung at every Job's Daughter's "do",) Amazing Grace, and a few others.

Interesting thread, thanks for starting it.

kat

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 11:33 AM

Flat-out atheism is completely different from skepticism or doubt -- it is an absolute assertion that nothing beyond human understanding could possibly exist. As far as I'm concerned, that's as arrogant and irrational as the most intolerant brands of religion.

As for me, I don't know what to expect when I pass away from this plane of existence to the next, but I'm sure it'll be a big surprise, something I could never possibly have imagined. I hope, and pretty much expect, it'll be a pleasant surprise - which is a form of faith, I suppose. (Faith in my own efforts to seek after truth and to behave as well as can be expected, anyway.)

Of course, if I don't maintain or regain consciousness of any kind, that'll be OK as well -- I'll never know the difference, right?

In the meanwhile, let's keep on arguing and discussing, and better yet, singing and playing.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: NobleSavage
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 09:32 PM

PoppaGator,

. . .it is an absolute assertion that nothing beyond human understanding could possibly exist.

I find myself confused by this statment.

In the first place, athiests that I have any experience with tend not to assert anything regarding existential claims without solid evidence to support those assertions. It seems to me that for an assertion to be seen as absolute it must indeed be supported by evidence. You seem to be claiming that this is not so.

I admit the possibility that some people at the extreme end of that philosophy might hold that belief, but not as many as you seem to believe.

Secondly, human understanding of what? It seems to me that since I am human, that any understanding that I am capable of regarding anything at all would be human understanding.

Now for the on-topic answer--

I, myself am agnostic. I am comfortable singing some believer songs, as long as the core message of the song is something I can agree with, or if it is just too good a song to resist--(I will confess a weakness for shape-note songs.)

I prefer to cultivate music that is more secular/humanistic in nature, though.

NS

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:01 PM

Belief in God is based on experience (of various sorts) and faith. Disbelief in God is likewise based on experience (of various sorts) and faith. Belief in party politics is based on experience (of various sorts) and faith. Belief in anything you can be bothered debating about is based on experience (of various sorts) and faith.

Yes. Faith is inevitable. Only...faith in what? is the question.

As for God, the concept termed "God" can be defined in so many different ways that there is simply no end to it. To disbelieve in all of them would be virtually impossible...except as an act of faith.

- LH

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: NobleSavage
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:34 PM

Little Hawk--

How are you defining faith in such a way as to say we all have it?

NS

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 01:34 PM

Yep. Faith is not confined solely to outwardly "religious" people, but goes right across the board, and is a key factor in the practices and attitudes of all people.

It is therefore ironical that the non-religious, seemingly pragmatic person ridicules the faith of the religious person, just because it happens to be a different variety of faith than his own...and probably equally ironical when it happens the other way around.

Since we are quite incapable of knowing everything, we must base a great deal of our beliefs and actions upon nothing more substantial than faith...or what might at best be called a hunch or an educated guess.

Everybody does it. It is because people have a great deal of faith in the value of money, for instance, that all kinds of patently insane and destructive things are going on all over this planet at this very moment.

Destroy their faith in the value of money, and they would behave quite differently...though not necessarily any better.

Money, you see, is a reigning god...one that was invented by people a long time ago, and has since grown into the largest, most dominating false idol on the face of the Earth. Treat it as a god, and it becomes a monster. Treat it as a mere tool, and it can be quite useful and beneficial.

- LH

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 01:44 PM

Heavy stuff for Christmas Day...

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: harlowpoet
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 02:00 PM

True Kevin. Though technically its not Christmas day, as there is no evience Jesus was born on 25th December. He may have been anyway, by coincidence.

My view is that you should show good will all the year round. Otherwise Jesus was born and died for nothing.

I just get fed up with the Santa version of it. Who is this god called santa, which Cliff Richard sings about to get another chart hit?

Sorry, I'm just fed up with the commercial manisfestations of Christmas. Drunk though.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 02:21 PM

No, Simon. Technically it is Christmas Day. Unless you are Russian or Greek Orthodox and so forth, in which case it isn't until 6th January.

Whether, in either case, it also happens to be the anniverary of Jesus's birth is quite another matter. Today's the day for celebrating the event. (And then maybe do it all over again on 6th as a gesture of friendship.) Dates don't matter.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 03:52 PM

Well, let me be the first to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, and I mean that whether I'm late, on time or early.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Cruiser
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:00 PM

The following may seem to some folks as purely semantical or contextural uses of the words faith versus belief. Nonetheless, their usage is very important to me.


The words faith and belief are difficult to differentiate because they are synonymous, by definition, in most dictionaries. I would define Faith as a subset of the belief system, a special kind of belief. I use a capital "F" to distinguish it from another common usage of faith. I prefer to use the words Faith and belief in different contexts. While dealing with scientific issues over the years, and often struggling with the proper usage of the two words, I've tried sorting them out this way:

Faith: Confident, loyal, belief in the truth, value, or trust of an idea, person, place, or thing. However, Faith denotes a belief that is not based on logical, empirical evidence. In the strictest sense, Faith is untestable by the rigorous scientific method. Examples are Christian Faith or other religious dogmata (not of the negative, insulting, connotation as some incorrectly apply to dogma). These are the doctrines relating to morality and faith principles that are often considered absolutely true by church authority.

I know, have read of, admire, and respect many people in all walks of life who have a deep, abiding faith in God. However, I don't know why they must give credit to a God, usually an unlikely anthropomorphic one, when their good, often heroic, actions are the result of their own inner strength, goodness, hard work, and fine conscience. But, that is Faith!

We all know Faith can result in enormous good for mankind as well as bringing untold misery.

It is how one exhibits or uses Faith, not that one has Faith, which matters. Saddam's Islamic Faith in Allah, his Faithful answer to God, and Mr. Bush's Christian God, who's Faith in and prayers from, have brought unwarranted recent misery and destruction:

Faith is not to blame here, but the purveyors of misguided Faith-based ideologies are.

Belief: I believe or disbelieve in many ideas, persons, places, or things. I try not to use the word Faith except as a special belief associated with religion, in some way. I believe the sun will rise and set on the morrow, but I do not have Faith that it will. My belief on that occurrence is based on Natural Law, supported by repeated observations, not on Supernatural miracle. My belief is never absolute because someday the world many stand still. I will momentarily digress to include a musical connection to this thread so Joe might let it remain in this musical section of Mudcat. ('The Day the World Stood Still' 1968 Charley Pride, peaked @ #4).

Some famous scientists have said (or might say) that their adherence to the scientific method is a matter of faith; some would even say a strong faith (uncapitalized "f" here). I would not go that far. I say that I strongly believe in the scientific method. That belief, and this is important, is based on stated degrees of probability that any event or concept is determined likely or unlikely to happen after it has passed through the "sieve" and rigors of the scientific method. My belief would not be based on pure faith (Faith) of that events happenstance.

My beliefs can be fleeting things ('My Elusive Dreams' David Houston, 1967 @ #1). They are subject to change, based on new contrary evidence. My scientific beliefs are never absolute! Faith-based beliefs are often absolute (the many, often beautiful, doxological hymnals praising unwavering, unconditional, allegiance to God).

This world and all its wonderful knowledge have progressed often by insightful scientists who were able to reconcile their Faith along with their application of Science. I mostly do not always understand how that reconciliation is possible, but it has, and will, continue to be so:

Gregor Johann Mendel, the Austrian monk known as the father of genetics. He did his science in the confines of a monastery. Sure, the secular world would have likely come up with the same answers, but Mendel's thesis, initially ignored, has scientific priority.

Sir Isaac Newton. For centuries millions of people world-wide observed apples, and other things, falling earthward, but it took a genius thinker-scientist to devise the theory, now the law, of gravitation. Could he have had his genius without his Faith in God, perhaps not?
I would not however say I had Faith in the law of gravitation. I would say I have a strong belief in it because it is not certain (absolute) and some day, as irrational as it may seem, that apple could rise from the tree. 'Don't Sit Under The Apple Tree [With Anyone Else But Me]' Glenn Miller 1942 #1 and the Andrews Sisters 1942 #16.

The modern-day many astrophysicists and professional astronomers who are believers (many are not or are agnostic). One in particular, a Jesuit Priest, I cannot remember his name, does his scientific investigations while wearing his habit! Now there is a man that has reconciled his Faith and his applied science.

"I think; therefore I am" René Descartes (Holy Cow! another famous, scientifically intelligent, believer).

This is what I think:

I have a strong belief in science and its bedrock foundation, the scientific method. I would NEVER say I had faith (or especially Faith) in it.

Ron

An atheist singing the refrains of this absolutely (I thought he just said nothing was absolute!) beautiful waltzing country gospel:

Farther along we'll know all about it,
Further along we'll understand why;
Cheer up my brother, live in the sunshine,
We'll understand it all by and by…

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:58 PM

Understood, Cruiser. It's essential in any conversation to know what the other person means when he uses a given word. Your definition of "Faith" is a little more specific than mine, but perfectly understandable.

I see all people as being religious, but each in their own particular manner...and they are virtually all given to using logic and reason as well, up to a point. The place where faith (or belief) and logic and reason meet is an interesting one.

But it all depends how one defines the words in the first place.

- LH

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 05:51 PM

Can a believer sing atheist songs?

Can an actor play a killer without being one?

Can a writer write about characters he doesn't agree with?

Can many believers believe the same thing?

Which one is the true believer?

Can a preacher preach a dynamic sermon without believing a
word of it? (Answer to the last question, yes).

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 06:15 PM

1. Little Hawk: Atheism is not the assertion that there is "nothing beyond human understanding." It could be, for example, the belief that it is extremely improbable that the universe was created with humanity in mind, by a Supreme Being who places humanity before all else and sounds very much like a human on steroids. Or an atheist might feel that the idea of a "supreme intelligence" unduly exalts a trait of which humans are already unduly proud. Or that it is extremely doubtful that an "all-wise Creator" would hold some of the astoundingly unwise views often attributed to Him. Or that a benevolent Creator would create not only the wonderful things that exist in the universe, but also the many horrible ones as well. Or that He would endorse the cruel things often done in His name.

2. I sing all kinds of songs that stand for things I don't believe in. I sing religious songs, mostly, when the feeling in the song is one I share, even if I don't share the theology. Songs that give comfort in adversity have something in them that gives comfort, and does not require that there is an all-powerful being out there that takes a personal interest in protecting one's well being.

3. And "Amazing Grace" is by no means the best there is.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Cruiser
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 06:17 PM

Yes, to all except #5, but I should recuse myself from that one. It is probably unanswerable anyway.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Cruiser
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 06:20 PM

Little Hawk

Thank you for the reasoned response. I must disagree with you on your use of religious. I am probably once again defining my terms too narrowly, but specificity is important here.

The Latin root religio means religion. The definition of religion, among others, is the personal commitment to and serving of God. There are of course many varied definitions but God is always a major component.

To be fair, the Latin root religio can also refer to reverence and piety. I have a reverence for science but never could or would say that the awe I have for science is a religious belief or faith. The problem is I might slip up and use a common variant of religion on some occasions. I might say, tongue in cheek, that I perform my scientific tasks religiously. I would mean in a zealous, conscientious, devoted manner. I would never say I was a religious human being.

As for piety, which usually means religious devotion and reverence to God, I can also have a non-religious atheistical devotion and reverence to my parents and family: filial piety.

I will concur. A writer or speaker must define their terminology beforehand. Word meanings are often difficult because the English language is full of synonymity, obscure etymologies, and varied, often broad, definitions.

Ron

Give me that old time religion…

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: GUEST,TK The DJ
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 09:31 PM

I'm agnostic.. Agnostic-(noun)- Athiest who is afraid of pi##ing God off.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 09:33 PM

toadfrog - No problem. There are probably as many different kinds of atheism as there are different kinds of religion. :-) I myself was an atheist until my early 20's, but that doesn't mean I would necessarily have seen eye to eye on it with various other atheists... I think what atheism usually is...is it's a reaction to various forms of traditional religion by people who can see through the more irrational and primitive aspects of those traditional religions. Or else it's just a learned attitude, picked up from atheistic parents. That's what mine was. Monkey hear, monkey do. You can see the same about kids who learn Catholicism or some other religion from their parents. Or it's both of those. Communists were usually atheists because they were trained to be from an early age. Lakota Indians were usually believers in spiritual things because they were trained to be from an early age. And so on....

I think one of the requirements to becoming a truly free being is this: Question everything you've ever been told by your parents, your culture, your peers, and your society. Re-examine it in the light of your own experience. See if it works. Question every common assumption and every habit and tradition. It's a lifelong process. Otherwise, you just let other people do your thinking for you, and surrender much of your own potential in the process.

Cruiser - Yeah, the reason that I give broader than usual definitions to words like "religion", "faith", etc...is that I am by nature a philosopher. I see people playing a few really basic and vital games in life (survival, mating, seeking pleasure, avoiding pain, forming familial and tribal groups, ego-enhancement, self-expression, working with Love...or fear, and finally...asking WHY?), and clothing them with different complicated symbols, which then get divided up into supposedly separate categories which aren't really separate.

Accordingly, I believe everyone has a religion (or several of them), and everyone relies to a certain extent on faith, and so on... I even consider party politics to be a form of organized religion, and a mighty stupid one, too! :-) I don't believe a religion presupposes the existence of "a supreme being"...just of a supreme concern. The supreme concern of political parties for instance is to gain power and hang on to it...by whatever means possible. The supreme concern of Communism (another "godless" religion) was to replace all other social systems with itself...kind of like the Catholic Church was trying to do for the last 15 or 20 centuries.

Primitive religions deal in the most primitive of human motivations...simple win-lose scenarios...and they rely heavily on FEAR/reward as a motivator. The whip and the carrot.

Advanced religions and advanced philosophies ask WHY? And "who am I?" And "who would I wish to be?" And then they ask HOW? And then they apply what they have learned through asking those questions, step by step...and their strength and their purpose arises out of LOVE. This is as true of great science as it is of great philosophy or great religious faith.

But that's just my own peculiar view of things. Most people don't use those words the way I choose to.

- LH

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:23 AM

Actually the root of the English word "religion" and the Latin word "religio" is the verb "religo" meaning "tie up" or "fasten". The idea being, religion incorporates a system of rules for living.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:42 AM

And now you come knocking on my door
To tell me it's your God who saves
But for too many years
You've brought nothing but tears
And the crosses to plant on the graves

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 07:40 AM

With beliefs, being individual rather than statistical, it is very much an individual thing. I went carolling round a village this Xmas and I have to say it is a very involving thing for caroller and carollee. The real problem with modern society is the trend towards self and flick-a-switch, as opposed to community and particitpation.

AND you get mulled wine, mince pies, sloe gin (yummy) and a lot of communal camaraderie. Mind you I might not do it if it wasn't for the fact that Joy (a believer) gardens for a goodly few houses in the village. She only works for those she likes, and we only sing for those that would never think in terms of Bah! Humbug!

I was asked to read the lesson at the church carol service and felt that was one step too far. I missed the serice this year but would go to be with Joy (metaphorically and physically). There is more to this singing religious songs than religion you know! I guess I am worshipping a Goddess.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: annamill
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 07:59 AM

Interesting thread. I am wondering if those that believed that the "Sun" was a deity, or worshipped "Cats", would feel Christians were "Atheists". Funny, huh? I'm an Atheist, but I don't feel vehement about it. I'm an old 60's person. You do your thing, I do mine. Simple.

I do, however, believe in people. Now, there is something that requires faith.

Happy Holidays!!

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: annamill
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 08:03 AM

Actually, what I should have stated was that I believe in the goodness of people. That requires faith.

Again, Love Annamill

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 12:04 PM

Go ahead. If Neil Diamond was happy to have the Monkees record I'm a Believer, he can't be too particular. Have a bash. Then try Sweet Caroline too.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 12:50 PM

Well, for Christmas, I took the day off from all this philosophical discussion. I just now observed that I was challenged/questioned immediately after my last post, but at this point I'm just gonna let that slide. Little Hawk, with whom I more-or-less agree on most of these issues, covered whatever I might have said nicely enough.

In my work as Santa Claus, I feel that I'm representing the pre-Christian (but by no means anti-Christian) celebration of Yuletide: good fellowship, coupled with delight in the consumption of food and drink and worldly goods. The aftermath of the equinox promises that the sun is coming back -- spring will come eventually even though the coldest part of winter is still ahead of us -- so we can chow down on this year's harvest with impunity.

The Church was smart enough not to even try surpressing this ancient holiday, instead grafting on a commemoration of the birth of Christ. The result we see today is something that can be enjoyed by all, and is open to all: Christians, secular humanists, and even believers in other faiths.

Of course, there's also an aspect of the Santa role where you're inevitably working in service of Mammon, the worst kind of commercialism. This is usually just a subtext, but on occasion it becomes unhappily obvious and can hit home pretty hard. When encountering some kids, and some parents, this distasteful aspect can be much more evident than usual. I just try to remain friendly while interjecting a note of moderation ("well, we might not be able to get you *everything* on that [overly long and detailed] list."), and hope for an immediate elevation of the mood upon the next vistor's arrival.

Enough drift! Peace to one and all, whatever you do or don't believe in, and best wishes for another 12 months and more.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 05:41 PM

Who's going to stop him/her?

Surely the real question here is whether people should be prepared to participate, or should be prepared to refuse to participate in propaganda for causes in which they do not or should not believe - or to which they are opposed.

Should an ordinary member of the English middle class be sufficiently offended by Irish terrorist songs to refuse to sing them?

Should a Jew be prepared to join in "Die Lindenbaum"?

Should an Irish rebel be prepared to join in an Orange song - or "the Soldier"?

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:04 PM

Pretty provocative questions, Richard.

I guess a lot depends upon how threatened the potential singer feels by the alien belief system presented by the song in question.

I don't imagine many atheists are so militant that they would feel threatened by the words of a hymn. Turning the question the other way around (as in the original earlier thread "Can a Believer Sing Atheist Songs?"), it's probably a bit more likely that some religionists would find explicitly atheistic lyrics to be offensive and therefore unsingable.

However, neither case seems to carry the same emotional weight of singing the patriotic anthem of your sworn ememy, as in your examples.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:46 PM

No reason any Irish Republican should feel any reluctance to sing "The Soldier".

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 04:21 PM

I believe that context is everything. If a religious song is sung with the understanding that unlies it, I don't believe you have to be religious to sing it convincingly. For example, Simple Gifts can be sung with conviction by a non-Shaker. Hebrew texts may be sung by Gentiles. Early pro-musica antiqua was predominantly Catholic and masses are done by Protestants and Jews.

I think that most of the performers on this list are kind of like actors in that the songs they sing have a limited bearing on their cultural backgrounds. Can you sing a sea chantey without having served on a vessel or a cowboy song without being at home on a cutting horse? I think so.

Frank

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 08:54 PM

annamill
I always state I have faith in human nature. The faith guarrantees that there will be bastards in the bunch. You can spot most of them, and occasionally nice guys get shit on. Honing observational skills (or doing ablutions) is a full time religion for me.
Mind you faith nearly was swept aside in the deluge (ney lahar) that was D.I.V.O.R.C.E. (mutter, mutter, mutter........) BUT FWIW I never sang till the wife left home and I have been singing religiously ever since - you never know when the magic will wear off!



a lahar is a mega-mudslide with serious momentum - boulders float along in one.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: NobleSavage
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 02:11 AM

Hey, Cruiser--

I just wanted to say thanks for the well thought-out post regarding faith, Faith and belief. I quite agree with what you said.

Poppa Gator--

It was not my intention to show any disrespect to you--it was your post and not you personally I was questioning. After reading your subsequent post I find that we agree more than disagree. Besides, it wouldn't do to agravate Santa Claus. . .

NS

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 03:05 AM

Anatheist can mouth the words but if it doesnt come from the soul then listeners/observers see.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 08:35 AM

re
Farther along we'll know all about it,
Further along we'll understand why;
Cheer up my brother, live in the sunshine,
We'll understand it all by and by…

woodie guthrie made a version of this song, which still has all the hope and power, but leaves out the religious references. it's a powerful, moving song.

freda

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 11:26 AM

Noble Savage:

No hard feelings. *I* should apologize to *you* for not elaborating upon my argument about "beyond human understanding." There were probably a few more points I could have made, but I've lost the impetus to do so.

Everyone:

To all those who still argue that theism is disproven by science, let me recommend a remarkable book with a stranger-than-science-fiction premise: "The Physics of Immortality," published about five years ago by Frank Tipler, professor of mathematical physics at Tulane University. A really thorough reading requires deeper understanding of math and physics than I have, but you can skip over the more complex formulae and still read and "get" about 95% of the book. Whether you *buy* his argument or not is quite another thing. I would think conventional church-going belivers would disagree more strongly with Tipler than academic nonbelievers.

For reader reviews & comments, as posted on Amazon.com, click here and scroll down about one-third of the way.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: NobleSavage
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 10:45 PM

Poppa Gator--
The same back to ya. . . consider your hand shaken in a friendly manner.

As far as I know, the existence of Diety is beyond the ability of science to falsify or confirm while remaining true to the scientific method.

It seems to be one of those 'direct experience' type of events; either you have a direct experience that convinces you of Diety, or you accept the word of someone who has. I have not had such an experience thus far, and I prefer not to take anyone elses's word for it--so the question still remains unanswered as far as I am concerned.

NS

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Two_bears
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:12 PM

The words faith and belief are difficult to differentiate because they are synonymous, by definition, in most dictionaries. I would define Faith as a subset of the belief system, a special kind of belief. I use a capital "F" to distinguish it from another common usage of faith. I prefer to use the words Faith and belief in different contexts. While dealing with scientific issues over the years, and often struggling with the proper usage of the two words, I've tried sorting them out this way:
-----

Faith and belief are not as synonomous as you think.

I can lay hands and ease the suffering. I KNOW for a fact that real healing will occur if it is in the person's highest good. I have seen it happen many times, and to people that did NOT believe in energetic healing.

I do not believe healing will occur. I KNOW healing occurs. That is a difference between belief and faith.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: johnfitz.com
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 10:34 PM

It is killing me to remain quiet, though it is a pact I made many years ago. My need and desire to break this vow makes that vow all the more important.   My challenge to you; how do you shut up?

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 10:43 PM

There is but one thing that matters and comes through in the work of anyone, artist and laymen alike, and that is caring.

Caring is supremely powerful and apparent in its presence as well as absence.

Religion and trust without reservation (otherwise known as faith)is but another form of caring and in no way can claim sole dominion of caring or love in this world.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: GUEST,Pat C ooksey.
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 02:19 AM

I was raised a Catholic in Ireland, for me heaven and hell are here
on earth, I have no beleif whatsoever in the hereafter, floating around on clouds strumming harps seems extreemly boring to me, and
I cannot imagine any friend of mine joining this throng, I don't
think my friends would be there anyway, for me life is the only
heaven there is, many gospel songs are great, but the devil has all the best tunes.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM

"I can lay hands and ease the suffering"
...what suffering? Anyone's? Physical AND mental? Every time?

"...if it is in the person's highest good."
.. ummm..interesting disclaimer.

"I KNOW healing occurs."
   and is this 'healing' like 'curing'? as in cancer, or heart disease? Or something more abstract like 'malaise'? And would I, as a sceptic, also KNOW that healing had occurred?

That's a lot of claims, and you say nothing about where you draw this ability from...How many more like you are there, and why aren't you getting more attention, since there seems to be so much 'healing' that needs to be done?

Sorry, but those of us who have no such power and have never BEEN healed remain a bit sceptical.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 06:53 PM

Jphnfitz:

Could you lift your vow long enough to explain what it is that it is killing you not to talk about? That would be a good start.


Shutting up is most often the wrong solution.


A

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: GUEST,Demonicus
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:43 PM

Have your religious friends ever sung "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer"? If so, did they really BELIEVE there is such a reindeer? If they don't believe it, they shouldn't sing it, or even allow their children to sing it. Tell then that.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Acorn4
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:25 PM

You don't have to be a psycopath to sing a murder balled. I know of some singers who disapprove of fox hunting but deliver a great song on the subject.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:36 PM

I have not plodded through all of the above but no I will generally not sing the propaganda of a cause to which I am opposed (unless there is a very very good reason).

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: autoharpbob
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:52 PM

I have plodded through the above, and a couple of other related threads, and noticed that nothing had been said on this subject since about 2003. I joined Mudcat way after that, so feel very pleased that this has surfaced again, and I have the chance to raise how I feel.

I would probably be better described as an agnostic - I don't know. Atheists are as confirmed in their beliefs as Christians. I am too much of a scientist to be able to either accept or disprove the existence of God.

But I do enjoy singing many Old Time/ Carter Family songs - kind of goes with my instrument - and a lot of these are very religious songs. "Resurrection Day" by Joe Newberry is a more modern example that I have sung recently as well. I have anguished over whether I have the right to sing these songs. It is a bit like going to Christmas Midnight Mass - its fun, its enjoyable, but you are not there to celebrate the birth of Christ, you are there because its what your family and friends do once a year. I guess the conclusion I have come to is that as long as I respect the song, and sing it with feeling and do the best I can, it is OK. I have to put myself in the shoes of someone who believes - in the same way that I put myself in the position of a 19thC female weaver when I sing "Poverty Knock", or of a spurned lover when I sing "Green Grows the Laurel". I find I can accept that position. I don't sing fox-hunting songs because I don't feel comfortable in the shoes of a hunter. But I do apologize to believers who feel that I am "lying" in some way. I do not intend to mock anyone's beliefs and just want to make beautiful music, which a lot of religious music is.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: Acorn4
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 03:29 PM

If you're an agnostic, and you're not familiar with Les Barker's "Church of the Holy Undecided" do try and find a copy.

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: olddude
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 03:38 PM

I sing cowboy songs, and I was never a cowboy nor ever will be ...
so why not

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 04:12 PM

We've had many folks visit our home who have come along on Sat. night to sing with us in our weekly goofy gospel service. I never asked for their credentials, any more than a community choir at a Catholic college asked for mine to sing several beautiful requiems and other oratorio-type stuff. It's too personal!

Was I a believer when I sang those-- yes, in great music. The Latin texts-- did their "propaganda" influence me? I don't care! :~) Prolly not any more than the anti-religion propaganda does, actually.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?
From: beeliner
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 04:17 PM

Can blue men sing the whites?

Or are they hyp-o-crites?