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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: GUEST,Frank Date: 25 Dec 03 - 05:51 PM Can a believer sing atheist songs? Can an actor play a killer without being one? Can a writer write about characters he doesn't agree with? Can many believers believe the same thing? Which one is the true believer? Can a preacher preach a dynamic sermon without believing a word of it? (Answer to the last question, yes). |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:58 PM Understood, Cruiser. It's essential in any conversation to know what the other person means when he uses a given word. Your definition of "Faith" is a little more specific than mine, but perfectly understandable. I see all people as being religious, but each in their own particular manner...and they are virtually all given to using logic and reason as well, up to a point. The place where faith (or belief) and logic and reason meet is an interesting one. But it all depends how one defines the words in the first place. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Cruiser Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:00 PM The following may seem to some folks as purely semantical or contextural uses of the words faith versus belief. Nonetheless, their usage is very important to me. The words faith and belief are difficult to differentiate because they are synonymous, by definition, in most dictionaries. I would define Faith as a subset of the belief system, a special kind of belief. I use a capital "F" to distinguish it from another common usage of faith. I prefer to use the words Faith and belief in different contexts. While dealing with scientific issues over the years, and often struggling with the proper usage of the two words, I've tried sorting them out this way: Faith: Confident, loyal, belief in the truth, value, or trust of an idea, person, place, or thing. However, Faith denotes a belief that is not based on logical, empirical evidence. In the strictest sense, Faith is untestable by the rigorous scientific method. Examples are Christian Faith or other religious dogmata (not of the negative, insulting, connotation as some incorrectly apply to dogma). These are the doctrines relating to morality and faith principles that are often considered absolutely true by church authority. I know, have read of, admire, and respect many people in all walks of life who have a deep, abiding faith in God. However, I don't know why they must give credit to a God, usually an unlikely anthropomorphic one, when their good, often heroic, actions are the result of their own inner strength, goodness, hard work, and fine conscience. But, that is Faith! We all know Faith can result in enormous good for mankind as well as bringing untold misery. It is how one exhibits or uses Faith, not that one has Faith, which matters. Saddam's Islamic Faith in Allah, his Faithful answer to God, and Mr. Bush's Christian God, who's Faith in and prayers from, have brought unwarranted recent misery and destruction: Faith is not to blame here, but the purveyors of misguided Faith-based ideologies are. Belief: I believe or disbelieve in many ideas, persons, places, or things. I try not to use the word Faith except as a special belief associated with religion, in some way. I believe the sun will rise and set on the morrow, but I do not have Faith that it will. My belief on that occurrence is based on Natural Law, supported by repeated observations, not on Supernatural miracle. My belief is never absolute because someday the world many stand still. I will momentarily digress to include a musical connection to this thread so Joe might let it remain in this musical section of Mudcat. ('The Day the World Stood Still' 1968 Charley Pride, peaked @ #4). Some famous scientists have said (or might say) that their adherence to the scientific method is a matter of faith; some would even say a strong faith (uncapitalized "f" here). I would not go that far. I say that I strongly believe in the scientific method. That belief, and this is important, is based on stated degrees of probability that any event or concept is determined likely or unlikely to happen after it has passed through the "sieve" and rigors of the scientific method. My belief would not be based on pure faith (Faith) of that events happenstance. My beliefs can be fleeting things ('My Elusive Dreams' David Houston, 1967 @ #1). They are subject to change, based on new contrary evidence. My scientific beliefs are never absolute! Faith-based beliefs are often absolute (the many, often beautiful, doxological hymnals praising unwavering, unconditional, allegiance to God). This world and all its wonderful knowledge have progressed often by insightful scientists who were able to reconcile their Faith along with their application of Science. I mostly do not always understand how that reconciliation is possible, but it has, and will, continue to be so: Gregor Johann Mendel, the Austrian monk known as the father of genetics. He did his science in the confines of a monastery. Sure, the secular world would have likely come up with the same answers, but Mendel's thesis, initially ignored, has scientific priority. Sir Isaac Newton. For centuries millions of people world-wide observed apples, and other things, falling earthward, but it took a genius thinker-scientist to devise the theory, now the law, of gravitation. Could he have had his genius without his Faith in God, perhaps not? I would not however say I had Faith in the law of gravitation. I would say I have a strong belief in it because it is not certain (absolute) and some day, as irrational as it may seem, that apple could rise from the tree. 'Don't Sit Under The Apple Tree [With Anyone Else But Me]' Glenn Miller 1942 #1 and the Andrews Sisters 1942 #16. The modern-day many astrophysicists and professional astronomers who are believers (many are not or are agnostic). One in particular, a Jesuit Priest, I cannot remember his name, does his scientific investigations while wearing his habit! Now there is a man that has reconciled his Faith and his applied science. "I think; therefore I am" René Descartes (Holy Cow! another famous, scientifically intelligent, believer). This is what I think: I have a strong belief in science and its bedrock foundation, the scientific method. I would NEVER say I had faith (or especially Faith) in it. Ron An atheist singing the refrains of this absolutely (I thought he just said nothing was absolute!) beautiful waltzing country gospel: Farther along we'll know all about it, Further along we'll understand why; Cheer up my brother, live in the sunshine, We'll understand it all by and by… |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Peace Date: 25 Dec 03 - 03:52 PM Well, let me be the first to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, and I mean that whether I'm late, on time or early. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Dec 03 - 02:21 PM No, Simon. Technically it is Christmas Day. Unless you are Russian or Greek Orthodox and so forth, in which case it isn't until 6th January. Whether, in either case, it also happens to be the anniverary of Jesus's birth is quite another matter. Today's the day for celebrating the event. (And then maybe do it all over again on 6th as a gesture of friendship.) Dates don't matter. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: harlowpoet Date: 25 Dec 03 - 02:00 PM True Kevin. Though technically its not Christmas day, as there is no evience Jesus was born on 25th December. He may have been anyway, by coincidence. My view is that you should show good will all the year round. Otherwise Jesus was born and died for nothing. I just get fed up with the Santa version of it. Who is this god called santa, which Cliff Richard sings about to get another chart hit? Sorry, I'm just fed up with the commercial manisfestations of Christmas. Drunk though. Best wishes |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Dec 03 - 01:44 PM Heavy stuff for Christmas Day... |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Dec 03 - 01:34 PM Yep. Faith is not confined solely to outwardly "religious" people, but goes right across the board, and is a key factor in the practices and attitudes of all people. It is therefore ironical that the non-religious, seemingly pragmatic person ridicules the faith of the religious person, just because it happens to be a different variety of faith than his own...and probably equally ironical when it happens the other way around. Since we are quite incapable of knowing everything, we must base a great deal of our beliefs and actions upon nothing more substantial than faith...or what might at best be called a hunch or an educated guess. Everybody does it. It is because people have a great deal of faith in the value of money, for instance, that all kinds of patently insane and destructive things are going on all over this planet at this very moment. Destroy their faith in the value of money, and they would behave quite differently...though not necessarily any better. Money, you see, is a reigning god...one that was invented by people a long time ago, and has since grown into the largest, most dominating false idol on the face of the Earth. Treat it as a god, and it becomes a monster. Treat it as a mere tool, and it can be quite useful and beneficial. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: NobleSavage Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:34 PM Little Hawk-- How are you defining faith in such a way as to say we all have it? NS |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:01 PM Belief in God is based on experience (of various sorts) and faith. Disbelief in God is likewise based on experience (of various sorts) and faith. Belief in party politics is based on experience (of various sorts) and faith. Belief in anything you can be bothered debating about is based on experience (of various sorts) and faith. Yes. Faith is inevitable. Only...faith in what? is the question. As for God, the concept termed "God" can be defined in so many different ways that there is simply no end to it. To disbelieve in all of them would be virtually impossible...except as an act of faith. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: NobleSavage Date: 24 Dec 03 - 09:32 PM PoppaGator, . . .it is an absolute assertion that nothing beyond human understanding could possibly exist. I find myself confused by this statment. In the first place, athiests that I have any experience with tend not to assert anything regarding existential claims without solid evidence to support those assertions. It seems to me that for an assertion to be seen as absolute it must indeed be supported by evidence. You seem to be claiming that this is not so. I admit the possibility that some people at the extreme end of that philosophy might hold that belief, but not as many as you seem to believe. Secondly, human understanding of what? It seems to me that since I am human, that any understanding that I am capable of regarding anything at all would be human understanding. Now for the on-topic answer-- I, myself am agnostic. I am comfortable singing some believer songs, as long as the core message of the song is something I can agree with, or if it is just too good a song to resist--(I will confess a weakness for shape-note songs.) I prefer to cultivate music that is more secular/humanistic in nature, though. NS |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: PoppaGator Date: 24 Dec 03 - 11:33 AM Flat-out atheism is completely different from skepticism or doubt -- it is an absolute assertion that nothing beyond human understanding could possibly exist. As far as I'm concerned, that's as arrogant and irrational as the most intolerant brands of religion. As for me, I don't know what to expect when I pass away from this plane of existence to the next, but I'm sure it'll be a big surprise, something I could never possibly have imagined. I hope, and pretty much expect, it'll be a pleasant surprise - which is a form of faith, I suppose. (Faith in my own efforts to seek after truth and to behave as well as can be expected, anyway.) Of course, if I don't maintain or regain consciousness of any kind, that'll be OK as well -- I'll never know the difference, right? In the meanwhile, let's keep on arguing and discussing, and better yet, singing and playing. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: katlaughing Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:11 AM In America consumerism is the Guiding Light. More Americans worship at Walmart on a Sunday than in churches, imo. Freda and Willie-O, there's no money in anything which does not have holidays, so...if Walmart etc. can't make a go of it, it just won't catch on!**bg** Ron, I love some of the old songs, too, although they were not emphasised much when I was growing up. We were left to figure out what we believed in on our own with some guidance from my mom and dad. Now, though I am pagan(ish), I do still sing Nearer My God to Thee (sung at every Job's Daughter's "do",) Amazing Grace, and a few others. Interesting thread, thanks for starting it. kat |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: NobleSavage Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:22 AM Mr. Hardly-- Might one ask you to explain the difference between "faith" and "belief"? Just curious. NS |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Bill D Date: 23 Dec 03 - 09:25 PM "When it is convenient.." for whom? I don't 'lump & dismiss', and I seldom meet anyone who does. THAT seems like a pretty broad generalization to me. I think you are using a pretty loose concept of 'faith'. Faith usually refers to not even trying, to test one's beliefs. If I say I follow the Scientific Method, and try to test my hypotheses, do you call THAT 'faith'? And that "...greater percentage of thinkers that have lived.." notion...what did THEY dismiss in order to arrive at what I assume you mean is a 'religious' position? In any case, I don't do that either. "The same mind that will dismiss God as "unprovable" believes unswervingly in "string theory".....well, like your other examples, it seems like you are postulating extreme examples, and then ridiculing them suggesting that this is common behavior. There are some folks who act as you say on both sides of the issue, but there are careful, thoughtful, reasonable folks who simply do NOT take their positions on faith alone, unless you hold to a pretty simplistic notion of 'faith'....but *shrug*..., it's like 'folk', I can't force anyone to accept narrow definitions. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: John Hardly Date: 23 Dec 03 - 08:40 PM Yup. Faith is inevitable. Faith is usually accepted as the domain of the religious but that just ain't so. Whatever philosophy drives your life is based primarily on faith. Nobody has the where-withall to empirically test all the stuff in which they believe -- all the stuff that make rhyme and reason of their lives. So, like a house of cards, all these life-driving philosophies still, ultimately, are taken on faith. And of course you knew what I meant about generalizing about religion. When it is convenient, all religion is lumped into one steaming pile of shit and dismissed as irrational. Then one merely has to walk away with their superior intellect, having soundly dismissed the greater percentage of thinkers that have lived or currently live. ...and all based on "provability" not "truth" or "reality". The same mind that will dismiss God as "unprovable" believes unswervingly in "string theory". |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Peace Date: 23 Dec 03 - 07:49 PM One of the great truths is this: God exists or doesn't exist. Not very profound, but I'm aging. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Bill D Date: 23 Dec 03 - 06:53 PM John Hardly...I sorta feel I should debate with you, but I ain't 'zactly sure what you said.. "..faith is inevitable"? hmmm?? " "religion" is not general."... I don't know what that means. I know 'not all religions are the same'...but that doesn't seem to be what you mean. IF you mean that one cannot apply a 'general' belief/attitude to *religion* in general, I think I'd have to disagree. One can say "I believe that there IS some guiding, spiritual essence to the universe, though I haven't picked a set of rules" or one can say the opposite.."I think the Universe just is with NO sentient force behind it." You may be wrong, either way, but those are ways to 'generalize' about religion...unless I have totally missed your point... |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Peace Date: 23 Dec 03 - 06:47 PM Cruiser: I was joking. Have a good Christmas time. BM |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Cruiser Date: 23 Dec 03 - 06:18 PM I am not sure if this will satisfy as a punch line but I will restate what I wrote in my original thread opening this discourse: "So, and to finish the reason I started this thread an atheist can sing believer songs. The reason I did was to give my son the opportunity to experience many sides of the issue and let him make up his own mind as to the value of believing in a deity or not". I would prefer that brucie would be willing to wait another, er, period of time so the many philosophies, beliefs, opinions, etc. would flow from the people whom chose to contribute. With the excellent archival abilities of the Mudcat Café, people can respond whenever possible. I still have believer songs in my head and I will never forget what they meant to me and I will probably join in with a chorus of believers when 'Will The Circle Be Unbroken' is sung. At least I might attempt to back them up on the fiddle if not join in on the vocals. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Peace Date: 23 Dec 03 - 05:50 PM I sing to those of little faith, A question in the telling; I sing to Thee or thee, you see, The answer's in the spelling. Now, what's the punchline? Have a good Christmas, Robin. BM |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Dec 03 - 05:34 PM I'm still waiting for the song, brucie. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Peace Date: 23 Dec 03 - 05:13 PM "Can an Atheist Sing Believer Songs?" Does this thread or does not this thread have a punchline? I've been waiting for two f##kin' days. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Dec 03 - 04:47 PM Ho! Ho! I am such a troll at times. I knew some aggrieved atheist out there would flip out over that "do anything for money" comment, and SURE I could just as well have said the same thing about some ( or many) evangelists or baptists, couln't I? You betcha! :-) With bells on. I was an atheist myself until about age 23, and figured I already knew just about all there was to know about reality, in a general sense. It's great to be 23 and know everything. Greed for money? It's commonly found in every category of both believers and non-believers. My point was that it might weigh larger in the mind of the hypothetical singer of the religious song than the choice about which song to sing. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: John Hardly Date: 23 Dec 03 - 02:21 PM Faith may or may not be logical... ...but it is inevitable. It is equally illogical (seems to me) to make your life's judgement about generalized "religion" when "religion" is not general. Each religion is quite specific. You may decide that, given the scope of what is out there to discover and analyze, "I ain't got time for this!" or even admit that you're too lazy to give a damn (that'd be me most of the time!). But to ascribe collective behavior to something that is not "collective" is not good logic. If A does not equal B does not equal C does not equal... They ain't zackly all wrong. They MAY be (all wrong).....but the same empirical method that would demand that one dismiss God because of his "unprovability", should require the application of that same standard for your "collective religion" theory. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM In Northern Ireland, as in many (most?) "religious" wars, it's not about religious belief, it's about about religious affiliation. As in the old jokes about "Are you a Catholic Atheist or a Pritestant Atheist?" Or even "Are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?" |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Bill D Date: 23 Dec 03 - 01:44 PM " When someone is comfortable with what they believe (it seems to me) that they feel little need for "vehemence"." Well, John Hardly, I see the point...but I also at least think I see why some DO feel strongly...and often vehemently..about the issue. MMario noted that "faith is illogical", a position treated in great detail by philosopher Sören Kierkegaard in "Fear and Trembling" and other works. Since history is full of abuses, wars, hate and intolerance done in the name of religion, there are many who get very irate that what they consider an 'illogical' position to begin with can lead to so much suffering. "Why", they say, "if God exists, and is so great, does so much evil happen?" ....Well, we know that there are various theological answers to that oft asked question...and we also know that a lot of good is done through religion....but these days, when there is a great deal of ill will being espoused and violence being done, fueled by religious fervor, I can see why some would be tempted to "vehemence" in their opposition. I had a friend tell me once, many years ago, that "the conflict in Ireland is not 'about' religion"....but I replied to him.."yeah, but it sure is the identifying marker when they want to shoot or bomb each other".... it is simply that some think that(if they think at all), if logic and reasonable debate do not make men aware of the folly of their positions, then 'perhaps' vehemence will get their attention |
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Subject: LYR.ADD.:Trouble in Heaven From: Charley Noble Date: 23 Dec 03 - 10:52 AM Having scanned this thread I'm thinking that maybe we just need some well written aethist songs. My mother was never one to find any comfort in the newer gods. She respects nature and has fought to protect the environment, and sometimes she communes with the older, some would say, pagan gods: TROUBLE IN HEAVEN (Words by Dahlov Ipcar, Circa 1975 Tune: "The Falcon" by Richard Farina) The archangels we meet all carry spears And have an angry look as if to say, "Though God's been dead in Heaven these long years, Don't be trying to put us away!" Chorus: The lessor angels form protective bands, They dare not go out late at night; They speak in whispers of "trouble" in this land, They, no longer seek the light. Our prophets say He was a God of Love, And speak of a freedom we never knew; But by their every action seem to prove That God was a tyrant and a bigot too. Chorus: The lessor angels form protective bands, They dare not go out late at night; They speak in whispers of "trouble" in this land, They, no longer seek the light. Final (spoken): Lucifer smiles as patiently he waits, Until the day we open wide the gates. In these troubled times, I find this song worth musing over again. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Mrrzy Date: 23 Dec 03 - 10:41 AM Also, there are nautical songs about the equinoctial (sp?) gales, like the one where the fine young man went overboard... married to a mermaid at the bottom of the deep blue sea. Good song, will check the db or post lyrics... |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: PoppaGator Date: 23 Dec 03 - 09:55 AM Just as I was falling off to sleep last night, I realized that I had posted "equinox" when I meant,of course, "solstice." I briefly considered jumping out of bed to post a retraction, but . . . naaaah! I suppose it shows I'm about as serious about paganism as I am about my cast-off Catholicism (not much). Anyway, I'm glad to see y'all had so much fun with it -- well worth any slight embarrassment I might be feeling. (I'm not usually that stupid/careless.) Also, I suppose I'm not a true agnostic; I do believe in a higher something-or-other, and that we humans can aspire to union with said Divine by transcending our egos and caring for others. I'm just very skeptical of any doctrine or organization that claims to have all the answers about That which surpasseth all human understanding. Also, speaking of agnosticism: DId you hear the one about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac? He kept himself awake all night wondering whether or not there's a dog. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: John Hardly Date: 23 Dec 03 - 09:45 AM MMario, That's not too illogical. When someone is comfortable with what they believe (it seems to me) that they feel little need for "vehemence". If those "vehement" atheists were comfortable in their own atheism, they wouldn't care, one way or the other, whether others did believe in a god. The converse would somewhat be the same way except that those coming from the perspective of faith are often evangelical -- not because of their weak faith's need to convince others in order to fully believe themselves, but rather, because when someone has something good, and that good is percieved to be in other's best interest, they wish to share it. Of course, there are those who are evangelical exactly because of their weak faith (and a need to convince others in order to fully believe themselves)... ...and those guys just kinda piss you off. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: GUEST,MMario Date: 23 Dec 03 - 09:27 AM a priest friend of mine once told me that he thought the vehemence of some atheists belief that there is no god was the best rational he had for the existance of god. illogical - but then faith is illogical. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: John Hardly Date: 23 Dec 03 - 09:08 AM no. An agnostic is one who isn't sure if there is a God... ...but is ABSOLUTELY convinced that you can't know either. The atheist is just a little angrier at God than that. *BG* |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: GUEST Date: 23 Dec 03 - 07:45 AM Isn't an agnostic a gutless atheist? |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: GUEST,MC Fat Date: 23 Dec 03 - 05:59 AM I agree with Foliedave. I'm a second genration atheist and there's nothing better I like than singing the South Yorkshire Carols and it's fair to say that if you mentioned religion I think they'd throw you out. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Peace Date: 22 Dec 03 - 10:22 PM Thank you GUEST. It was an inspired moment. No applause necessary. It's a gift. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Dec 03 - 09:27 PM Next year the Spring Equinox is on March 20th, so here is a song we all know in a Spring Equinox version - Th Greenland Whale Fishery It was the year of eighteen five and March the twentieth day When our gallant ship from her anchor swayed To the seas she bore away, brave boys, to the seas she bore away... Easter is an Equinox, Santa comes on a Solstice. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: GUEST Date: 22 Dec 03 - 08:16 PM Good brucie, Real good. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Peace Date: 22 Dec 03 - 07:54 PM Oh, equinox, Oh, equinox, The turkey's on the chopping block. Oh, solstice time, Oh, solstice time, The equinox verse doesn't rhyme. Oh, Christmas tree, Oh, Christmas tree, Forget me not and I'll forget not thee. Oh, think a bit, Oh, think a bit, The verse above don't scan for sh#t. And to all a good night. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: EQUINOCTIAL AND PHOEBE From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Dec 03 - 07:53 PM Well, there's EQUINOCTIAL AND PHOEBE: Equinoctial swore by the green leaves on the tree That he could do more work in a day than Phoebe could do in three, three, That he could do more work in a day than Phoebe could do in three. "If tha be so," Phoebe said, "then this you must allow: You must do my work for a day, and I'll go follow the plow, plow, You must do my work for a day, and I'll go follow the plow. "You must milk the Tiny cow for fear that she go dry, And you must feed the little pigs that live in yonder sty, sty, And you must feed the little pigs that live in yonder sty. "You must watch the speckled hen that she does not run astray, And you must wind the hank of yarn that I spun yesterday, And you must wind the hank of yarn that I spun yesterday." Phoebe took the staff in her hand and went to follow the plow, The old man took the pail in his hand and went to milk the cow, cow, The old man took the pail in his hand and went to milk the cow. But Tiny hinched and Tiny flinched, and Tiny buckled her nose, She hit the old man such a blow that the blood ran to his toes, toes, She hit the old man such a blow that the blood ran to his toes. And when he'd milked the Tiny cow that she would not go dry, He went to feed the little pigs that lived in yonder sty, sty, He went to feed the little pigs that lived in yonder sty. But while he fed the little pigs, the hen did run astray, He forgot about the hank of yarn that sh'd spun yesterday, He forgot about the hank of yarn that sh'd spun yesterday. He looked to the east, he looked to the west, he looked to the setting sun, He swore to his heart it had been a long day, and Phoebe would never come, come, He swore to his heart it had been a long day, and Phoebe would never come. He swore by all the stars in the sky and all the skies in heaven That Phoebe could do more work in a day than he could do in seven, That Phoebe could do more work in a day than he could do in seven. .................... "Ecumenical with the truth" is a reference to a famous quote from an English Civil Servant, who'd been caught out trying to deceive people in behalf of his political masters, when he said that he had been "Economical with the truth". Perhaps it never made it across the Atlantic. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: GUEST,Anne Croucher Date: 22 Dec 03 - 07:32 PM And in this season of goodwill, on the very date of the equinox, let's not forget that we humans have been celebrating Yuletide since long before the birth of Christ. Roast poultry and alcohol for everyone! ER - scuse me but - Isn't it a solstice? - the equinox is the other one, when the clocks change, the solstice is when the years change. No body ever wrote a song about an equinox - did they? Anne |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Cruiser Date: 22 Dec 03 - 06:33 PM Hey McGarth, I thought ecumenicalism was something about promoting unity among churches or religions, ergo a worldwide Christian church. However, I guess it can mean "universal" as it seems to apply in your phrase: "Ecumenical (universal) with the truth". Those many English words that have more than one (often broad) meaning are often a source of confusion to me. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Dec 03 - 04:36 PM "Treat the songs like booze. Keep them away from children." I don't think that's the right way to treat either songs or booze. But be sensible about it. ................... The Great Speckled Bird - seems to me that all that needs to ease out the sectarianism Joe finds worrying is to change the one verse from All the other churches are against her They envy her glory and fame; ..." to something like All the wide world is against her It laughs at her glory and fame..." And so forth. That's called being Ecumenical with the truth... |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: PoppaGator Date: 22 Dec 03 - 04:12 PM Hey, what about us agnostics? We can sing just about any damned (or blessed) thing! I have no more use for the mindset that is *sure* that nothing exists beyond human understanding than I do for the most fundamentalist systems that claim specific knowledge of God, and presume to know what He thinks of me. And in this season of goodwill, on the very date of the equinox, let's not forget that we humans have been celebrating Yuletide since long before the birth of Christ. Roast poultry and alcohol for everyone! |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Cruiser Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:45 PM Joe, Our posts crossed through cyperspace, or I am just a slow typist. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Cruiser Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:41 PM Thanks Nancy (and the other posters as well). I did a Search before I started this thread and did not find the one you just linked, thanks. That thread does not occur on the "Related Threads:" section at the top of this page either, as I would expect. Mudcat never ceases to amaze me. Thank you all for your reasoned responses and to Joe and/or the other "clones" for the "behind the scenes" work (like removing the BS designation I put on this thread and I guess since there is some "philosophizing" it is appropriately placed here in the BS section since it is probably borderline). I must admit that I only infrequently venture into the BS section "down there below the Music posts" but realize from perusing the articles, as opposed to just skimming them, it should not be summarily dismissed. Ron
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Amos Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:37 PM Personally I think it is a non-issue; any singer worthy of the art is capable of singing songs he does not personally believe in. I could probably do a convincing rendition of Deutschland Uber Alles if I knew the lyrics, but I wouldn't deign to, in general. Not that I could not, but that I would not choose to do so. I can certainly sing believer songs, because although I do not share the Christian faith, nor its iconophilic passions, I am replete with faith and passion of my own, and I am sensitive to human situations, or at least try to be. A |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:27 PM All those gospel songs about bloody lambs and the war imagery don't jive with my beliefs as a liberal Catholic, and the technology metaphors like the "Royal Telephone" and "Turn Your Radio On" and "Life Is Like a Mountain Railroad" strike me as silly - but I love those old gospel songs because they're so colorful. I wonder, though, if I am disrespectful in singing those songs - since I sing them for fun and not for faith. I admit that sometimes I ham them up, but believers who sing with me don't seem to be taken aback. I don't agree with the theology in most "negro spirituals," but I have no problem singing most of them seriously, because so many are so darn beautiful. I think that if I find a song beautiful or interesting, I have no trouble singing it seriously, even if I might not agree with the ideas expressed in it. For me, my personal moral code is far more important than the moral beliefs of my church, although the two usually coincide. My moral code dicates that I must tolerate almost everything but hatred and intolerance. I can't think of any "atheist songs" that are intolerant of believers - I suppose there are some, and I probably would have trouble singing those. There are lots of Christian songs (and some Roman Catholic ones) that are intolerant of other beliefs, and those I either can't sing, or I sing with a bit of trepidation. Great Speckled Bird is a good example - it's such a good song that I hate not to sing it, but it shows a lot of intolerance for ideals that are sacred to me. I suppose I also have trouble singing Christian songs that are drippingly sentimental, since they portray Christianity in a light that is embarrassing to me. In fact, I may have more trouble singing songs of my own faith that I think misrepresent that faith, than I do singing songs of other beliefs. -Joe Offer- I think this is a valid musical issue, and I'm going to move this thread up to the "music" area of the forum. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: GUEST,Nancy King at work Date: 22 Dec 03 - 12:55 PM We had a really good discussion of this topic here. |
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Subject: RE: Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 22 Dec 03 - 12:34 PM But can a blue sing the whites? |
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