BS: Where have all the wines gone?

Subject: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 01:46 PM

I guess I was a bit of a freak when I was in high school (back in the early 1970s), but my friends and I used to like to drink wine for the taste rather than to get high.

I remember some really great wines from those days, none of which I can find anywhere these days:

White Niagra
Pink Niagra
Lake Niagra
Catawba and Pink Catawba
Sauterne

The brands I remember the best were Great Western (not the one in the UK; I believe this one was a US company that pre-dated the UK one), and Taylor.

Also, about fifteen years ago, I remember that there was a red wine called Lambrusco, a really fun little, slightly sparkling, red wine. That one is still available, but I can only find one brand of it... Riunite.

It seems like, in the "old days" of the 1970s and maybe the '80s, there were a lot more varieties readily available. These days, it seems like everywhere you go, mostly all you see are Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Chardonnay, Shiraz, and maybe three or four others. If you look very carefully, you can sometimes find a Riesling, or some of the other fruity German wines, like Liebfraumilch, Zeller Swarz Katz, and Blue Nun (I remember these were popular in the late 1970s).

So what's the deal? Is there some kind of Facsist wine conspiracy or something? Anybody know where to find the lost varieties? Those Niagra grape wines were really nice.

P.S. Pardon my spelling if I got any of the names wrong. I have a wicked headach and I don't feel like looking them up just now.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:24 PM

Maybe it's a regional thing. On the West coast we drank Boone's Farm, Ripple, Boone's Farm- strawberry, as well as half-gallon types like Gallo, Delicato and Italian Swiss Colony. Pass the jug, and no one was worried about getting someone elses germs. That stuff with corks in it was for snobs and people who went to the Country Club for dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:29 PM

pdq, we had those where I lived too, but those wines were for the purpost of getting drunk. Taste wasn't really a consideration with those wines ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:31 PM

Sounds like most - or all- of those wines were fairly sweet. Perhaps more people have caught on that dry wine tastes better?

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM

This won't exactly answer your question(s), but may clear up some of it.

The "pink Niagra" (Niagara?) et al I assume were brands (I'm assuming US), and like other brands, when they lose favor and no longer make enough money, they are abandoned by their producers.

"Sauterne" is in the US a sort of generic word, referring to the French "sauternes" (note the s on the end), a wonderful Bourdeaux dessert wine. The US "sauterne", though it uses a form of the French word, is a relatively dry wine rather than a dessert wine, and is nothing like its namesake. I think that changing public tastes in the US have put paid to "sauterne" also--and good riddance, say I.   I'm not sure whether the French "sauternes" is a French place name, like Burgundy, Bourdeaux, and so forth, but if so it may be considered later when I talk about place-named foreign wines.

Zeller Schwartze Katz (Cellar Black Cat) is a German brand name, as is Blue Nun(which is a liebfraumilch). I'm sure they are still available, and as always, only from Germany.

However, names like Bourdeaux, Burgundy, Champagne, (and Sauternes?) and Chablis, from France, and Soave and Chianti from Italy, are another kettle of fish. These are place-of-origin names, and the EU has cracked down on their use for wines not from those areas. That's binding only in the EU, but a number of non-EU countries are honoring it, and the EU are pressuring the US to follow that rule, and it looks like that's what's going to happen--not only with wine, but with other consumables like cheese, and so there may soon be no American Parmesan, Cheddar, and a number of other cheeses with foreign place names.

That's why we see so many American wines with grape-varietal names these days. I applaud that for wines, but I have reservations about applying it to cheeses. But then my druthers are hardly controlling, are they?

I hope this (while it doesn't quite answer all your questions) has been helpful.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Peg
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:37 PM

You can still get plenty of the Lake   Niagara wines in New York state; that winery is going strong! When I go there I   try to pick up NY state produced white wines; they are grapey and fruity, a lot like Reislings. There is a winery near Chatauqua (Johnson Estates) that has Chatauqua blush that is fabulous...as well as many other very good wines...

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:39 PM

No, the people became older and snootier. I remember buying PP&M's "Reunion " record. They are sitting at a table, dressed in suits and such, drinking a fancy wine and eating Brie. Working class heroes? Woodie's children? Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: brid widder
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:45 PM

the convent doctor goes to see the Mother superior... mother we've got a case of syphillis in the convent.... thank God for that say's the senior nun... I'm really sick of Chardonnay;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:51 PM

California used to have Red Mountain table wine from Gallo; the absolute best table grade red in the world. The cheapest, too. They just stopped making it. Family politics may have been involved. It couldn't be beat - half a gallon of good wine for under US$5.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:58 PM

Absolutely right. The larger wineries in California would make as much "varietal" wine as they could sell, then excess grapes went into the same hopper as "cheap" wine. Friends and I had several blind tasting contests and some Gallo and Italian Swiss colony "bulk" was preferred to the "good stuff".

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 03:30 PM

DaveO - excellent & informative post! What I add is because Sauternes is a particular favourite of mine... *g*

Sauternes for a little more info about Sauternes, which is defintely a sub-regional name i.e. it's a sub-set of Bordeaux whites... I believe that there have been problems with Sauternes production (i.e. a reduction in the grape harvest) over the last few years.

Certainly as little as 5 years ago you could get a bottle of Sauternes for @£12 in the UK. This year, I'm seeing £12 for a half bottle. QED.

In general, all I'll say about wine is: buy it, try it, remember it if you like it; & ignore the price at all times! There is an immense amount of snobbery in the wine world, & no reason to suppose that, for the average palate, a £30/$50 bottle is any better than a £3/$5 bottle!

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 03:49 PM

I started drinking wine on Johnsons estate Liebframilch as well as Liebestrophkin, eventually switched to German Rieslings like Piesporter, and lots of Kabannet varieties, some sweeter some drier.

Eventually I think many people's tastes change to a crisper drier wine than the Rieslings and I guess most have moved on to Chardonney and Pinot Grigio. So it is just economics. When the demand increases for Chardonney and decreases for Riesling and there are only so many feet of space on the store shelves, the Rieslings have to go. As this happens it makes the growers plant different varieties of grape rather than the niagara and riesling grapes.

10 years ago everyone was drinking white Zin and now that has seemed to run its course in favor of less sweet products as well. I naver though I would develop a taste for reds like Merlot and Cabarnet but it has happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 04:16 PM

I remember when Stones Green Ginger Wine was about 95c Aus a bottle - now it's over 10 times that price...

There was an ABC Radio doco yesterday about Aussie wine costing about $4-5 a bottle to make under contract. One grower was saying that if they sell a bottle for $10-12 they have to make $1-2 each to stay in business - but some Supermarket chains are now doing "loss-leaders" of 2 for the price of 1 - they must have acquired a lot of excess stock from defunt wineries - which is now ripping the heart out of the Aussie wine industry.

The previous comments about all wine being of a higher quality and Eu branding decisions are also true.

If you want a real sweet wine - but it's very hard to get and expensive because of the difficulty in making enough of it - try "Ice Wine" - under various names. The grapes are left to freeze on the vine, then picked, and made into wine. The freezing concentrates the sugar.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Peg
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 04:22 PM

Ice wine...ewwwwww....sorry, this is right up there with triple bock for "what were they thinking?"

Those "Liebes" wines from Johnson;   great stuff! They also do a spicy red rioja, I think that is outta this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 05:31 PM

The Niagara grape has a very unique flavor. As you might expect it tastes just like the wine. There was once even a carbonated soft drink that used it called Pommac. It was like champagne soda.

The area of Niagara however is HORRIBLY polluted. I was one of the very few civilians to tour their hazardous waste site that drains into the Niagara falls basin via ground water. Love canal is open again for habitation thanks to changing the numbers that define "hazardous".

One has to go a ~ hundred miles south and 50 miles east to get unpolluted Niagara grapes. The Erie shore used to be prime but near Aor Valley they put in what is called a Demonstration Project that is a fancy name for nuclear radiation land fill. The radiation demonstrated it was able to flow all the way to Lake Erie.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 06:56 PM

The best ice wein I have tasted actually came from Canada (I suppose there's no shortage of frost there) As a 'pudding wine' it is as good as a Sauternes anyday and lovely with a really ripe mature Stilton (sorry wrong thread - I think that was the cheese course one)
There are excellent (and relatively inexpensive) varietal wines available (at least over here) besides the ubiqitous cabernets/chardonnays. My own favourite is the Burgundian Pinot Noir (also makes excellent fizz) but for a change try the lesser known Carignan - excellent with Mediterranean food.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 06:20 AM

Over here we can buy a Rumanian Pinot Noir for about £3 bottle (we pay much less on our french booze-cruises), which is beautifully rich and fruity and compares favorably with my memories of fine Burgandys like "Nuits St George" from the days when I could afford them.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 12:37 PM

Wow. Some very interesting ideas here. Thanks!

The Niagra wines I used to drink weren't brands, but varieties that were put out by a couple of different companies, if I remember correctly. I think the White and Pink Niagras were put out by Great Western, and I think the Lake Niagra was put out by Taylor. I'm not sure who made the Catawbas, but maybe both companies did.

Ice wine is good if you use it correctly. It woud be great over ice cream, and if you sip it very slowly, it goes with other desserts as well. Or it can serve as a dessert all by itself. Some late harvest wines are good like that, too.

Ebbie, I find that there are some very interesting dry wines, especially if you're having them with food, but I can't agree that fruity and sweet wines don't have their uses. But maybe you can tell me what, particularly, you prefer about dry wines.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: MarkS
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:00 PM

Carol - Try a google search for wineries, Finger Lakes Region, New York. I know there are LOTS of small family owned wineries in that area and the varieties you posted are still made there. I bet that many of them have samplers and will deliver by post or by UPS
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 02:06 PM

As you can imagine, Texas, like California, is large enough to have some wines that are made to be sold only in Texas. There are some very nice ones available at very good prices.

I pick up a bottle of the Chateau Ste. Michelle Johanesburg Reisling every so often. It is one of many nice wines from Washington State.

Depending on the time of the month (how much of the paycheck is left when I go shopping), there are some nice Cabernets that can be purchased from $4 to $10 US. Chardonay is a little bit higher.

There was a story on NPR several months ago that talked about the glut of wine on the market these days bringing prices way down, especially French wines. Ever since the Bush flap over the UN and France and Iraq I try to regularly buy French wine, for solidarity purposes among other reasons. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 03:50 PM

SRS   I buy French wines but because they tase mighty fine! Even dry french whites don't have that oaky taste that lots of people find harsh.

Carol, I am sure there are tons of places in the Niagara region that can provide you with all the sweet wines you can take but as I remember, you are here in Georgia, arent you? Unfortunately you can't receive alcohol through the mail here legally. I just bought a case of Italian merlot and had it shipped to family in Ohio who were coming down for Thanksgiving. Maybe Alabama is a state you could ship to, I haven't checked it out, but if so, maybe you could ship it to friends or family in Alabama?

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 04:04 PM

The last wine I bought came from Idaho. There appears to be wineries in all the states these days (although I'm not certain of Alaska and Hawaii). Missouri produces some very nice sweet wines (try Hermanhoff and Stone Ridge, especially Hermanhoff's "Hunter's Red"). There are some concords produced in Nauvoo, Illinois that might stand the test, too. Michigan also has some (I miss "Molly Pitcher Cannon Number 12").

Do they still make Ripple? My brother once threw a case of it into the Potomac because he considered it undrinkable (and he was drunk at the time!) and was lucky the EPA didn't bust him for water pollution.

Maybe y'all are looking in too high-class stores....

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 09:23 PM

Just this past year I was invited on a wine tasting tour....I thought it was going to be a stuffy event and really had no desire to go other than to spend some time with my friends. My husband and I went, reconnected with my college roommate (as though not a day had passed) and had a GREAT time!!! We went to several of the wineries in upstate NY around the Finger Lakes. Some of our favorites are Fulkerson's Matinee, Pink Catawba from Bagley's/Poplar Ridge, RedCat from Hazlitt's.....yep...lots of great wine going on around here! Plenty of activities to faciliate trying of new wines as well...next month is the Wine on Ice event where several wineries get together at a local hockey rink for a day or two of tastings!!!! We have tickets to go with my old roomie who said she wouldn't go without me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   *Big smile*

All this talk about wine...I think I shall go pour myself a glass! Cheers!

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 09:27 PM

Didn't someone once say "Wine is the Joy of Life"?

If they didn't, I will!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Padre
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 10:09 PM

In Virginia, there is/was (haven't seen it recently) a wine made from the Scuppernog grape - it had the name 'Mother ' in it somewhere. A fairly sweet wine, but when chilled was pretty refreshing. Anybody got a clue about it?

Padre (who spent 3 years drinking Frankenwine in the Wurzburg area)

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: pdq
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 10:18 PM

There is a reference to "Scuppernong Wine" in a song by Doc Watson, the album (CD) is "Lonesome Road".

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 10:44 PM

we have a similar wine in Georgia called Muscidine wine made by Chateau Elan near Atlanta. Padre, Is the Frankinwein in thous funny shaped fat bottles? I have had that in Germany a few years ago   It was delicious!

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 10:45 PM

I meant to say Scuppernong wine is very similar to Muscadine wine! The wine is affecting my typing again!

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 11:39 PM

Muscadines are the naturally occuring wild grapes of the Southeastern U.S. We have thousands of wild Muscadine vines on our property. When European settlers couldn't get the wine and table grape varieties they were familiar with to grow in the south's humid environment, they began experimenting with selectively breeding the native Muscadines. Scuppernongs are a named variety of Muscadine and are, by far, the most common and popular variety. Scuppernongs are about ten times the size of their wild native forbears and much tastier.

BTW, wild Muscadines are sometimes known as "Fox Grapes" (from Aesop's fable about the fox and the sour grapes) because their vines climb into trees and many of the grapes are well out of reach.

BTW again, over the years, varieties of European grapes that will tolerate high humidity have been developed. There is an active winery about an hour east of where I live in the Florida Panhandle and they make several varieties.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 11:52 PM

About a dozen of us (musicians, song writers, the usual suspects) got on the outside of some stuff called "St. George's". Jaysus, did we find out what killed the dragon. We all got posioned. One of the guys fell asleep--after puking--with his head still in the bowl. Someone who had to go real bad peed on him before he realized what he was doin'. He finished, anyway. We all had to work the next night and everyone had the shakes. Finger pickers were getting their fingers stuck in strings, flat pickers kept dropping their picks, the drummer couldn't make a rim shot to save his life, and one of the bass players kept making noises that sounded very strange, something like a cross between squeeks and squeals. He was doin' that with his voice. A folkie had had his hand stepped on by someone wearing riding boots, and he was damn near in tears every time he had to play anything more complicated than an A chord. He broke a string on stage and had to get someone from the audience to replace it for him. We couldn't help because we were all shaking too badly to get the string through the hole. Two of us barfed between sets. Stay away from that stuff. It has probably tripled in price. I don't doubt it's up to about $6.00 a gallon by now. That's about all I remember. Longest two days of my life. That was in about 1970. I've since moved up to muscatel. Much better.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 11:59 AM

I am one of those people who will drink wine because It Tastes Good. I'm not a snob about it. I have had expensive wine, and inexpensive wine, and really, folks, There Ain't Much Difference. There are a lot of good wines to be had for less than $20 a bottle, some for less than $10. I think the last bottle of Black Cat I bought was only $7.99 here in Tennessee, where we have an outrageous liquor tax.

Australian wines are good. Chilean wines are good. And don't knock the ol' California table wines, either.

Mister is making some wine these days. He's done very well with the beer --- we'll see what happens. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 02:01 PM

For someone weaned on the wines of Macon (well it was our twin town) this has been an education and driven me back to Hugh Johnsons World Atlas of Wine where all the varieties and areas mentioned above are listed - fascinating - a virtual tour of vinyards
Strongly scented wines (such as those using American varities of grapes such as Concord and Isabella) are decribed as 'foxy' - although I've never heard that it was derived from Aesop. I suspect that they would taste fairly strange to a European palate; the most I can cope with is an Alsace Tokay (Pinot Gris) which is only slightly off-dry but does have a very slight foxiness.
Vive la difference

Let us drink and be merry, dance joke and rejoice
With claret and sherry, theorbo and voice 17th century

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Peg
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 02:22 PM

Alsace region wines are very nice; especially the whites (reisling, gewurztraminer, etc.). I agree that expensive does not always equal better. Some moderately priced wines are lovely. You can't beat Trader Joe's merlot for $3.29 a bottle! Yellowtail, Jacob's, lots of good inexpensive brands out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 04:40 PM

This being the Christmas season, I thought I'd throw in a little Biblical (although non-Christmas) quote, from St. Paul. In one of his Epistles to the _______s, he said:

Drink no longer water, but take a little wine, for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmity."

Just thought I'd raise the level of discussion here!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 05:26 PM

I Timothy 5:23

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Like I knew that, huh? The internet is amazing. Someone once said that if ya gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, eventually they would write "The Complete Works of Shakespeare." The internet proves that's not true.

Yeah, but Jesus went around turning water into wine at the wedding, huh, so it musta been like OK, ay?

Sorry, Dave, I was trying to lower the level a little, and I think that last sentence does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 06:06 PM

Hey all you folks across the water, just found this

For the richest and best
Is the wine of the West,
That flows by the Beautiful River
Whose sweet perfume
Fills all the room With a benison on the giver....

There grows no wine
By the haunted Rhine,
By Danube or Guadalquiver,
Nor an island or cape,
That bears such a grape
As grows by the Beautiful River.

Longfellow
"Catawba Wine"

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 06:22 PM

Or see this page, Brucie, for a different take...

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 06:30 PM

And here was I assuming (and acting on advice) that it was a simple medical reccommendation

Drink a glass of wine after your soup, and you steal a rouble from the doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 06:35 PM

here was I assuming that it was a simple medical recommendation

Me too, Emma... But that's the web for you

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 07:45 PM

From Richard Farina's "Children of Darkness" comes the verse:

It's once I was free to go roaming in
The wind of the springtime mind
It's once the clouds I sailed upon
Were SWEET AS LILAC WINE;
So why are the breezes of summer, dear
Enlaced with a grim design?

We tried making lilac wine one summer, using our tried and true dandelion wine recipee. God, was it awful!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: pdq
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 06:20 AM

brusie...your contention that the bottle of St. George wine was made in St. George

Utah by Mormons is clearly not correct. Research has shown that, in the early 70's,

this wine was regularly brought in from Argentina in the bilge of the freighter El Cid                     

in who's cargo hold was tons of bola tries, destined for the bola-tie-starved millions in

Arizonia. The wine was unloaded in the docks of San Pedro by Rococo and Sons LTD.

From there it went by tanker truck to the bottling plant behind "Trini" Cortez Esso Station

in Van Nuys where the colorful " proud to be an American" label was afixed. Distribution

was done by the Katchaturian Brothers out of Lodi. One of the brothers, "Chicken", was

later convicted of lewd and indecent acts with vegetables and sent away for rehabilitation

to the Atascadero Home for the Terminally Bewildered. I hope this clears things up.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:26 AM

I don't care how cheap it is or if it has a screw top- I really like Lambrusco. Riunite is the only brand I've ever seen. Is there another available? Also does anyone remember Mateus? We used to drink that back in college then use the bottle as a candle holder. Used to be common in certain circles to see Matues bottles with wax melted down the sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 01:10 PM

*I* have a bottle of scuppernong from Mother's Vineyard!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 02:02 PM

Hey, pdq, LMAO. Thanks for that. Hope you had a great Christmas. BM

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 02:48 PM

Back in my Forest Service employment days (we were all working our way through college) Cribari was the gallon of choice. Papa Cribari was much abused as stories were told about the scion of that vinyard as the bottle was passed around.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:29 PM

I found some Taylor wines in, of all places, my father and stepmother's kitchen cabinet. And one of those wines was a Port, which seems to be another difficult to find wine these days.

Jaze, here's a website with some information about Lambrusco: http://italianfood.about.com/library/weekly/aa042398.htm

jimmyt, we're in Alabama now, so maybe I can have them shipped.

I've decided that I like white Zinfandel, but not the kinds with the fruit flavoring, and I'm looking forward to trying some Scuppernong and Muscatel wines.

Thanks for the posts, everybody. I'm enjoying this thread a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 08:57 PM

Thanks,Carol. That site was interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 12:21 PM

Brown Brothers Shiraz-hellish expensive but its Christmas puddings old tobacco blackberies and cherries all in one. Don't like sparkly stuff and Astralian Chardonnay isn't what it was -there are some nice portugese whites arounds, bu I still like a glass of Rose D'Anjou now and again....

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Peg
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 01:59 PM

Lambrusco is just lovely; a nice soft red. Why, I may go buy a bottle today!
Mateus was a favorite of the college days though I was more of a beer drinker or drinker of "girl drinks" then...

Had some nice New York State Riesling (Dr. Konstantin Frank) over the holidays...did not get a chance to bring any back with me though...

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 02:57 PM

I also have a bottle of Arches wine, made in Utah from grapes grown in Idaho. Huh?? Of course, I've also drunk Cork Cream Sherry, made in Ireland from must imported from Someplace Else.

My brothers make wine, when they feel the urge to do so. Our family label is "La Bonne Merde" -- the last batch was so dry that it caused a drought. They've also made wine from tomatoes (foamed all over the table) and from water (hey, if Jesus can do it...).

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 12:19 AM

Back in the days when we used to run raffles in pubs to raise funds for the rugby club, the last raffle of the day used be be for a $50 note wrapped around a bottle of wine.

The bottle of wine was asti spumante (and cheap asti at that), and the only way to drink that stuff was to chill it so cold that you couldn't taste it. The usual advice was to pour the grog on the ground and hit yourself on the head with the bottle.

... but ther were people who liked it ...

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 03:46 PM

Funny thing...I stopped in a wine shop in upstate New York a cuople of weeks ago, and thw only lake niagara wine I could find was from the Widmer winery (Naples, NY). It tastes just as good as I remembered it from mumble years ago. Their web addy is www.widmerwine.com and they have a toll free phone number 800-836-5253. They do ship.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 07:26 PM

I've checked the Widmer site, Hollowfox, and it looks like they've got some good stuff. I'll be calling them on Monday to see if they can ship to Alabama.

We were eating at a really great Mexican restaurant near here yesterday, and the waiter recommended a dryish red Chilean wine, Fronterra Cabernet Sauvignon / Merlot, made by Concha Y Toro. I haven't found Merlots or Cabernet Sauvignons particularly interesting in the past, but this was a very interesting and enjoyabe wine.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: van lingle
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 08:20 AM

Carol, I used to keep that C&T CS/M as table wine. You can get a big bottle of it at most Publix grocery stores here in Florida for about 8 or 9 bucks.
Peg mentioned Mateus. I don't remember what it tastes like but the necks made excellent slides.vl

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: JennyO
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 09:23 AM

Ah yes, Hrothgar. I remember SPEW-mante. People used to insist on bringing it to my parties and leaving it behind, while drinking all the good reds and chardonnays. I would usually take one of these along to the next party, and do the same thing. Life's too short to drink bad wine ;-)

Even longer ago, I remember my friends getting large flagons of wine, simply for the purpose of getting drunk. Disgusting stuff it was, but it worked - which leads of course, to this song:

The Wine Song   

There are those who like their wine
Because it adds sophistication
To that hearty meal they're serving to their friends.
And there are those who like their wine
Because it helps in the creation
Of that party feel on which so much depends.
And there are those who'd like their wine
To come from eastward-facing chateaux
On the plateaux of Lorraine and all that bunk
But their motives are not mine
And I like lots and lots of wine
And I like it 'cos it makes me drunk.

There are those who take a glass
Because it helps them to relax
They find it helps their social manner to improve
Well, that's a jolly useful scheme
Which I have taken to its logical extreme:
I sometimes get so well-relaxed I can't move
And there's another kind of fellow
Drinks champagne to make him mellow
And he swears by Cliquot, Bollinger and Brut
Well, I tried some Brut meself
I found it on the bathroom shelf
And he was right: it got me mellow as a newt.

You can judge your wine by the quality of the vine,
Or its colour or bouquet or all that junk.
But it all comes back to the falling over factor
And the fact that it gets you drunk.

There are those who like to think
That it's important what you drink
They haven't got an inkling what it's all about
They spent their evenings wasting
Decent drinking time by tasting
Drops of this and that, then spitting it all out.
They pass along the tables
Strewth, they even read the labels
Muttering things like, "What a shame
The cork has shrunk"
Or "fruity nose" or "too much tannin"
When they ought to get a man in
Who appreciates the chance to get drunk.


They waste their time describing
What they ought to be imbibing
Which is wine of course, although you'd never think it.
'Cos they use words like "young but promising, "
"Precocious," "full of fun";
You'd have thought they were going to adopt the stuff
Not drink it.
And at a meal these silly asses
Have a row of empty glasses
A different wine with every dish they eat.
Me, I mix whatever's handy
In a stiff, all-purpose shandy
Which goes very nice with fish or Shredded Wheat.

You can judge your wine by the quality of the vine
Or its colour, or bouquet or all that junk
But it all comes back to the falling over factor
And the fact that it gets you drunk

And there are those who take delight
Pronouncing all the labels right
They roll their r's and do those German glottals.
Me, I couldn't give a monkey's
'Cos the stuff for getting drunk is
On the inside not the outside of the bottles
So if you have a cheese and wine
Invite your friendly Philistine
Call me drunkard, call me sot
Or call me wino. What do I know?
You'll find me in the kitchen
I'll be giggerlin' and twitchin'
Having a sup and throwing up
Across your lino

You can judge your wine by the quality of the vine
Or its colour, or bouquet, if you insist…
But it all comes back to the falling over factor
And the fact that it gets you
Misty-eyed and mellow, gets you
Maudlin, mawkish, miserable and pissed.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 09:36 PM

G'day JennyO,

Some years back, an early incarnation of Selectors played for a Catholic Fellowship dinner (at Quakers Hill ... ?). As there was a dinner served in the middle of the gig, we were invited to dine ... and told to grab a bottle of wine from a selection in the corner - bottles brought in by Fellowship members to be used as prizes in raffles and dance competitions.

We all avoided the bottle brought in by the Priest ... a bottle of "Orange Spumante" that had, apparently, been to more events than I've had hot dinners! However, the beeswax-sealed bottle of Botolabar organically-grown Chardonnay, which we did select, was magnificent! Gil Wahlquist produced some gems on his little Mudgee holding.

REgards,

Bob Bolton (trying not to laugh at the song!)

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 10:14 PM

I'm wondering if the Spumante we get here is significantly different than what you folks get where you are, or if I just have radically different taste in sparkling wine. I love Spumante (even Asti).

Yesterday evening JtS and I shared a bottle of Hillebrand Estates Harvest Gewurztraminer, made in Ontario, that we picked up at the duty-free shop on our way back from one of our trips up there. It was delightful.

Thanks for the heads-up, Van Lingle.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 02:23 AM

CarolC
In Australia Spumante (or Spew-man-te) was VERY sweet. If you drank too much, it was inevitable that you would see it pass by again...

And Bob,
that reminds me,

There were a group of people who lived in a household together, some of who worked at a dairy factory - they could buy returned stuff near to its expiry date real cheap. They bought a large block of cheese - and to cut a long story short, they would take it to a party, and then take it home again, and put it back in the freezer.

It eventually disappeared, because when it started to go green, they used to cut off the outside and keep the circle going - until it became too small...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: GUEST,Need in Florida
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:31 PM

Does ANYONE know where in Panhandle of Florida one can get Italian Swiss Colony America MUSCATEL.???? It is in New England New Yok But unable to find, locate or track down info as to Southern areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:35 PM

I have discovered that I am allergic to the sulfites they add to most wines these days (at least what can be found in the US, even those coming from other countries).

I bought a few bottles of organic wine to which no sulfites have been added. I understand that sulfites do occur naturally in wines even when none have been added, but my understanding is that the amount is similar to what can be found naturally in fruit juices. So far, so good. I have not had an allergic reaction to either of the two organic wines I've tried so far.

I've been wondering how organic wines would compare to other kinds as far as taste, etc. is concerned. One of the wines I bought is a Riesling, by a company called Badger Mountain, which is in Washington State (USA). It's quite nice and very interesting. It's fruity and has many layers, and a lively sort of behavior in the mouth. It's missing a bit of bass note, but not enough for me to dislike it. It is pleasant and fun, and has a pleasant aftertaste.

The other one I've tried so far is a red table wine from a company in California called The Organic Wine Works. The bottle says, "a' Notre Terre" ("To Our Earth"). I don't know if they intend that to be the name of the wine, or not.

It's a lovely dryish wine, with a slightly smokey aftertaste. It's just a little bit reminiscent of a port, but much lighter and less stodgy. It is also quite lively in the mouth, and nicely astringent, and I don't find it to be missing any notes at all.

I also bought a white table wine from a California company called Frey. The bottle says "Natural White". I haven't tried that one yet. I think I'll wait until I finish the Riesling before I open it (I don't have a lot of room in my refrigerator).

The prices are not bad at all. All of the ones I bought were right around ten dollars US for 750 ml. I would probably buy less expensive wines if I didn't have the sulfite allergy, and I don't think I'll be drinking these wines in any great quantity. But it is nice to be able to have a little wine from time to time without having an allergic reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From:
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:37 PM

I want to melt candles using an emply Mateus wine bottle. Anyone remember the right way to do this? I bought candles at a head shop because someone there made a beautiful display using multiple colored candles and I don't remember how he did it. Help!

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 03:48 PM

First you have to drink the wine. That's the fun part. I recommend having some good spaghetti or lasagne along with it.

Way back in the olden days, when I tried to do what you're describing, I seem to remember that all I did was to stick a candle in the top of the (empty) bottle, light it, and allow it to drip all over the bottle. If you want a multicolored effect, I guess you would do this with several different candles of varying colors, all in the same bottle until you have the effect you want. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 04:29 PM

I am also allergic to Sulfites.

I tried wine for the first time in 22 years last month. The shortness of breath was hardly discernable after 2 small glasses.

I tried Sweet William from NY

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 04:59 PM

Guest honeynougat

I have seen candles sold that drip in multicolors as they burn, look around.

If you are attempting to recreate the cafe/bistro/coffee house look that was popular in the 50's and 60's you may want to look for a Chianti bottle like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 05:19 PM

Carol C, stay away from wines in cartons (some taste good to me, but my wife has a sulfite or similar problem). Most bottled California wine at $10 or more should be OK (without preservatives such as sulfites). Also Washington-Oregon-Alberta-British Columbia should all be OK.
Reporting of sulfites in food and drink is voluntary- I thought sulfites had to be listed, but not true- only if concontrations over a certain amount.
See warning notice by Food and Drug Administration: Sulfites

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 05:38 PM

Thanks Q. I don't buy or drink any wines that don't say "no sulfites added" on the label.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 09:21 PM

Well, all you wine coniseurs have got it right. Loving wine for it's taste, aroma, and after effect? are just the reasons I prefer wine to hard liquer. I prefer Australian red and white wines by Yellowtail. I particularly like the Yellowtail shiraz. I know there are other Australian wines that I haven't tried yet, but guide me to better taste if you can.

Petr

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 10:13 PM

Yellowtail wines are a lot of fun. They're very lively. Boisterous, almost. I like their Chardonnay, but they contain added sulfites, so I can't have them any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: jimmyt
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 10:19 PM

much of the sulfite in wine production is due to the fact that they rinse out the barrels after bottling with H2SO4 and if there is any residual after the barrel is rinsed it can produce small amounts of sulfites in the next batch.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:13 PM

I've been enjoying European wines, myself. Some of the German white wines (Kabinett), French red table wines, and a few Spanish and Italian wines. I keep my purchases in the range between $5 - $10 a bottle and there are plenty to choose from.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:08 PM

A search for "Italian Swiss Colony" + Florida gets a connection at Italian Swiss Colony, Florida which does indicate a "Florida presence." Perhaps this is what Guest was looking for.

If a local distributer cannot be found, it may be of interest that a Wine Business Monthly article in May 2003, that announced the "legalizing" of direct to consumer wine shipment in Virginia, noted:

"The Coalition for Free Trade is assisting winery and consumer plaintiffs with five additional lawsuits, challenging outright bans on interstate wine direct shipments into New York, Florida, North Carolina, Texas and Michigan."

At least as of 2003, mail order purchase was not allowed in Florida. At that time only 23(?) states did allow shipments to individuals. I didn't find a current listing of which do/which don't.

An article at WINE WORLD ESTATES includes that in the 1990s:

"In the United States, wine was distributed in a "three-tier" distribution network. Most wineries sold their products to distributors, who typically sold dozens to hundreds of individual wine brands, as well as distilled spirits, beer, and non-alcoholic beverages to retail liquor and food stores and for consumption "on-premise" in restaurants and hotels. A distributor generally had the right to sell a brand within a specific geographic area and typically employed a sales staff, which serviced all classes of retail outlets. Larger wineries with multi-brand product portfolios would constitute a large percentage of a distributor's sales, generally employ a large sales staff, and have a competitive advantage at the distribution level."

(Note that "Wine World Estates" was a "corporate name" for the wine distributorship owned by Nestlé until sometime ca. 1995. It's not clear from this article whether it still remains with Nestlé. Corporate functions under this name probably centered on distributing and marketing numerous "brand labels.")

If there is in fact a difficulty getting a particular wine in a particular area, the above marketing structure is the most likely explanation. Distribution to retailers is controlled by distrubutors who have assigned regions, and who largely are given "monopoly control" of their region(s). Since the distributor may handle hundreds of wines, it's common practice for them to "drop" individual brands/varieties that don't maintain "market share," unless the item has an extremely high markup as might be the case for some ultra-premium (> $60 US/bottle?) wines. Retailers cannot sell what the distributors choose not to deliver.

In many similarly stuctured markets, the "drop point" may be as high as 10% of the group of "competing lines." Carried to it's extreme – as is not too unlikely – in a few years "cheap to moderate priced wines" will come only in "red" and "white," both will be made from cranberries, with artificial flavorings, "boosted" by methanol tailings from our surging alternate fuel industry. The "white" will be bleached, and the "red" will use "red dye No XXX" with an appropriate warning on the label.



1st-for-wine has an extensive list of links to info about Italian Swiss Colony wines available on the web; but I didn't see anything relating to retail sales in Florida. Additional info perhaps at wine devine.

The "last?" resort is to ask a retailer if it can be ordered for you.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: DougR
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:57 PM

My wine of choice these days is "Two Buck Chuck" Charles Shaw out of Napa, California. That shows you what an elitist I am.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: GUEST,redhorse
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 07:39 AM

jimmyt: If winemakers have been using H2SO4 (sulphuric acid) to rinse their barrels, I'd certainly avoid the stuff!
H2SO3 (sulphurous acid) has been used for centuries to sterilise barrels and stop wild yeasts spoiling the fermentation. Traditionally burning a bit of sulphur paper in the empty barrel which was rinsed afterwards (They were certainly still doing it this way in the 1960s when I worked one summer in a wine cellar in Mainz).
Adding sulphite to the wine is something else.

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: number 6
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 08:21 AM

"Old Sailor" ... I can't find that vintage anywhere these days.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:40 AM

Where have all the winos gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:08 AM

"Old Sailor" ... I can't find that vintage anywhere these days.


Ask jacqui.c--I think she has some on hand. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: GUEST,Rumncoke
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 11:32 PM

I smile whenever I come across Sanatogen Tonic Wine. Not that I touch the stuff.

Quite a while ago now I heard an old chap declaring rather loudly that an American Battleship had been named after this wonderful beverage, but the name was made femenine - as all ships are she - so she was christened the Sanatoga.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 05:48 PM

Speaking of sulfites, I have found out that there are wines that have actually had the sulfites removed.

This is what I understand about sulfites (from what I've been told and what I've read here and there)...

Most companies add sulfites to their wine as a preservative. Some companies don't add sulfites, but there is a residual amount of sulfite that is naturally found on the skins of wine grapes. This sulfite is not an added sulfited, and these wines have much less sulfites in them than the ones with added sulfites, but they do contain a very small amount. These wines are in the "organic" category and they are what I've been drinking (in very small amounts) from time to time, with much less adverse effect than the wines with sulfites added.

Just recently, at a Whole Foods Market in Cary, North Carolina, I learned that there are also "organic" wines that are not only free of added sulfites, but they have also had the naturally occuring sulfites removed.

I have been enjoying one of these completely sulfite free wines in the last few days, called, "Our Daily Red", produced and bottled by the Nevada County Wine Guild in Collegeville, California. It's a very pleasing wine, and quite delightful with several kinds of goat and/or sheep milk cheese (I have learned that I am not particularly allergic to goat and sheep milk), and especially accompanied with nicoise olives. I do find that I can tolerate this wine much better than the other kinds.

Another kind we bought, which I have not yet tried, is called Lodi Syrah, produced and bottled by Orleans Hill Winery in Collegeville, California. The prices of these two wines were $8.00 and $9.00, but I don't remember what we paid for which.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:58 PM

Was given a great gift at the weekend a bottle of Fitou 2001 from
Chateau du Seigneur D'Arse
- it says it is "de généreaux aromes!" and "mis en bouteille a la Proprieté"
- I can't wait...........

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 07:37 PM

We recently indulged in a Lodi Zinfandel from Talus, it was quite nice and a special treat from the usual homemade fare that we've christened Chateau Plonk.

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 02:09 PM

Back in "Ye Goode Olde Dayes" (the mid-1960s)the wonderful one who became(and still is) hubby, and I used to find a Portugese Rose under the label Alianca. (told later this was a wine co-op--Alliance?--in Portugal). I found Mateus to have an unpleasant bitter aftertaste. But not Alianca. It was cheap, delicious, and had a pleasant edge of frisante(?)--not enough to be an actual "sparkling", but for me to say, "Is that bubbles?" the first time or 2 we tried it, and afterwards just to sigh with satisfaction when we had some. It seemed to enhance anything it was served with, a real plus in the day when we were buying the cheapest on-sale foods to prepare meals from. Haven't seen it in years. I think they also made a white. There was also a Rose under the label Douro(Bros? Fathers?) which we found enjoyable and inexpensive. And I, also, remember Cribari--cheap, tasty, several varieties. Once we found a Cribari champagne(before the days when area names of French wines were protected), but not as good as some other less-expensive sparklers. And once(summer of 1970) my mother, to celebrate a very special event, bought an $80 bottle of Taittinger which we shared between the 2 of us. wow......................       Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 08:19 PM

Tannywheeler, it looks like your Alianca wine is still being made, although you might have to go to Toronto to get it. Here is a Google search for that particular wine...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Alianca+rose+portugal&btnG=Google+Search

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 12:29 PM

Charles Shaw (Two Buck Chuck) is alive and well in Arizona!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 10:49 AM

Is the Chuck Shaw (Two Buck Chuck) completely sulfite free, DougR?

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: number 6
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 11:15 AM

Szekszardi ... a Hungarian wine that got me through my college days. Haven't seen it around lately.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 03:29 PM

What I want to know is: what ever happened to good ol' Boone's Farm Apple Wine? Back in the'70's it was a staple in the house I shared with two other guys. We certainly drank our share of BFAW, often buying it by the case. In fact, one of the best hams I ever cooked was marinated in it. A few years later, it was gone from the market shelves while the (IMHO) nasty strawberry version of it remained. A few other flavors surfaced for a while; but the apple wine never returned. Anyone know what happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 04:42 PM

...here is a tribute to...


                                       Boone's Farm Apple Wine

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 05:37 PM

I just did a search on Boone's Farm wines, and what I learned is that they are "wine flavored citrus malt beverage". Hmmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Where have all the wines gone?
From: jimmyt
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 05:50 PM

I had a couple cases of 2 buck chuck last year. It is a pretty good tasting $7.95 ish wine. One thing I noticed is that although it is OK when it is first opened it goes bad in less than 24 hours. It is a decent plonk.

I also find that Turning Leaf is on sale at Krogers for $5.95 which is certainly a $10 value. Emma has sharpened my wine discernment taste though and it is darn hard to find Nuit St George or Puligny Montrechet at a decent price! Way to go ruin a good thing, Emma! Grin.

Still a great value for people with sweeter tastes is Leonard Kruesh Piesporter, Spatlase or Kabanett. These are light delightful but fruity Reislings, they are cheap and available most anywhere (wherever there is a big supermarket) and a darn site more pleasent than Suter Home white Zinfandel.