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BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy

ced2 24 Dec 03 - 05:54 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Dec 03 - 06:02 AM
Peg 24 Dec 03 - 08:25 AM
Donuel 24 Dec 03 - 08:30 AM
ced2 24 Dec 03 - 10:36 AM
C-flat 24 Dec 03 - 10:46 AM
artbrooks 24 Dec 03 - 10:49 AM
C-flat 24 Dec 03 - 10:51 AM
Beardy 24 Dec 03 - 12:08 PM
Bill D 24 Dec 03 - 12:11 PM
Bat Goddess 24 Dec 03 - 01:47 PM
Charley Noble 24 Dec 03 - 02:08 PM
JenEllen 24 Dec 03 - 02:09 PM
mg 24 Dec 03 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,petr 24 Dec 03 - 02:25 PM
Bat Goddess 24 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM
open mike 24 Dec 03 - 04:31 PM
mg 24 Dec 03 - 04:34 PM
GUEST 24 Dec 03 - 04:36 PM
Donuel 24 Dec 03 - 04:46 PM
mg 24 Dec 03 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,heric 24 Dec 03 - 06:46 PM
artbrooks 24 Dec 03 - 06:54 PM
mg 24 Dec 03 - 07:04 PM
NicoleC 24 Dec 03 - 07:14 PM
NicoleC 24 Dec 03 - 07:15 PM
GUEST 24 Dec 03 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,petr 24 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM
mooman 24 Dec 03 - 07:32 PM
Gareth 24 Dec 03 - 07:50 PM
Gypsy 24 Dec 03 - 08:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Dec 03 - 08:47 PM
akenaton 24 Dec 03 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,pdc 24 Dec 03 - 09:05 PM
Beardy 24 Dec 03 - 09:39 PM
Amos 24 Dec 03 - 10:52 PM
artbrooks 25 Dec 03 - 12:39 AM
akenaton 25 Dec 03 - 06:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Dec 03 - 07:52 AM
GUEST 25 Dec 03 - 11:52 AM
JenEllen 25 Dec 03 - 03:21 PM
artbrooks 25 Dec 03 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,& Concerned 25 Dec 03 - 04:32 PM
akenaton 25 Dec 03 - 04:51 PM
mg 25 Dec 03 - 04:54 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Dec 03 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,& concerned 25 Dec 03 - 05:18 PM
mg 25 Dec 03 - 08:44 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Dec 03 - 11:08 PM
mg 25 Dec 03 - 11:45 PM
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ced2 26 Dec 03 - 05:34 AM
Sooz 26 Dec 03 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,heric 26 Dec 03 - 03:39 PM
artbrooks 27 Dec 03 - 03:04 PM
Alice 27 Dec 03 - 03:12 PM
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JenEllen 27 Dec 03 - 05:10 PM
MAG 28 Dec 03 - 12:16 AM
IvanB 28 Dec 03 - 12:17 AM
GUEST 28 Dec 03 - 01:39 AM
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Subject: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: ced2
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 05:54 AM

I understand from this morning's news that it has now crossed the pond! Greater risk from offal than steaks etc. i.e. burgers, sausages are more likely to contain the prion... I am surprised that it has taken as long as it has to surface in the bovine population, it seems to have been widespread in the executive for a few years now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 06:02 AM

Here's a song I wrote about it when it erupted back here a few years ago. A friend bet me I couldn't use write a song featuring the term. And he paid up too:

Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis
that is why those Frenchies fear to fight us
and there's not a soul in Brussels
munches meaty English muscles,
thanks to Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis.
    Glory glory allelulah
    British Beef may be peculiar.
    But every patriotic Brit
    eats up every little bit.

Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis
these are time that surely must excite us,
and those fancy foreign demons
dare not face our British semens
thanks to Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis
    Land of Hope and Land of Glory
    sure our cows are feeling poorly
    but thanks to Mrs T we know
    how a crazy cow can run the show.

Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis
since we're British they'll not dare to eat us
as the Queen's Own Royal Cattle
are butchered in each battle,
thanks to Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis
    Johnny thinks he's on a dinner
    eating mad cow pie for dinner.
    Litle John turned Desperate Dan -
    would you buy a used cow from that man?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Peg
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:25 AM

I knew it was only a matter of time. I am surprised it took this ong, actually, but who knows whatthe feds have been hiding all these years...

I amnot allowed to give blood in this country because I have spent more than six months living (and presumably eating beef) in the UK over the last dozen years. No one knows if BSE is spread through blood transfusion, but no one is taking chances either...

Also; weren't some deaths in the UK attributed to BSE found in people who did ot eat beef? I had gathered at one point that it was not exactly clear how this could be spread...

Beef is not such a huge export for us, but the domestic industry will suffer mightily. Maybe people will finally give up the goddam Whoppers and Big Macs once and for all...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:30 AM

peculiar / alleluya

very nice.

BSE has been in this country for decades.
US elk and deer herds have been hit very hard.

You know they used to call this stuff Scrapie.

Now that farms are 95% mega corporations, spotting the disease let alone caring is unlikely.

They say the prion proteins are ubiquitous in the soil but eating the twisted protein is always dangerous.

There is a glimmer of hope in fighting this syndrome.
I can post this hopeful research later.
Prevention is tough however since 1200-1600 F is required to destroy the protein should it reside on surgical/dental instruments.



.......................................on the far side : )

One of my favoirte sci fi novels ties together cattle mutilation and prion disease used as an extraterrestrail weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: ced2
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:36 AM

Don't let anyone fool you that it is as benign as Scrape.. The farming community in Britain tried that as their first ploy..


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: C-flat
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:46 AM

I had a definate feeling of deja-vu listening to the American spokeswomen reassuring her fellow citizens that she would be having beef for Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:49 AM

Canada had a case about 8 months ago-nothing since-so perhaps this will be just as isolated. Watching for it and identifying it quickly is a much better business practice than trying to conceal it. Beef is, by the way, a major export item for the US-about $2.6 billion last year. More here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: C-flat
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:51 AM

I meant to include this link in my last post.

C-flat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Beardy
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 12:08 PM

From what the spokesman from the US meat Farmers said this morning on BBC Radio 4 they have not heeded some of the warnings from the British experience. He gave the impression they were still rendering products from spinal cords etc and feeding it back to the cattle.
As we learned over here cattle are not meant to be omnivorous/carnivorous.

I hope the US authorities have not concealed the size of the problem like the Tory Govt for 18 months. At the time I was working for thye Ministry of Agriculture at the Central Veterinary Laboratory in New Haw and was processing invoices for Veterinary surgeries around the UK and this phrase kept appearing. When the matter became national news after 18 months MAff denied any previous knowledge and covered up their ineptitude and laissez faire attitude to the crisis.


Stewart


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 12:11 PM

it's sad, because there was just an article the other day about how the cattle ranchers have finally had a GOOD year and are paying off some debts, due to reduced supply and increased demand (partly due to the Atkins diet!)...they said 2-3 more years of good prices and demand would offset 4-5 years of drought and misery.

Now this....panic will probably offset any gains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 01:47 PM

It's scary when you realize what's been fed to beef cattle -- not only other meat byproducts, but other "protein sources" including chicken manure. When will they realize it doesn't make economic or any other kind of sense to feed meat to herbivores? And then there's the antibiotics, etc., but that's a whole 'nuther argument.

And when will most people start paying attention to what's being done to their food?

Oh, and then there's some low end ground meat that incorporates the slurry of meat bits that's forced off bone by high pressure water. No spinal cord or such material in that, of course . . .

I try to eat intelligently, but who can AFFORD to? Especially those of us who are "victims of the Bush prosperity."

Makes me spit . . .

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:08 PM

Brilliant song, McGrath! Maybe we can adept it for here.

Yes, the brain and spinal cord, please, but hold the lettuce!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: JenEllen
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:09 PM

All I can say is thank the gods that the prion isn't transmitted by people spouting off about
things they know nothing about. It would be an epidemic of the grandest around here.

As for it being only a matter of time? You can take your Whopper and stick it where the
sun don't shine. Washington beef is a HUGE export. Many of the people I know in this
valley, it is the lion's share of their income. We export massive amounts to Japan, along
with other products, and that trade is in serious danger of being ended.

BSE is different from the TSE that affects cervids. Assuming they are one and the same
only feeds into the ignorant media hype.

The farms and dairies in this area are not all mega-corporations. Many are co-ops of
family farms. Granted, not many do the birth-to-burger ranching anymore, but these are
regular people who are trying to make a living.

There hasn't been any 'ploy' to this point other that the bullshit I've seen on national news
this morning. If you'll accept a timeline from someone who might actually know
something about this, here's how it's played out in our valley:

A dairyman (NOT A BEEF RANCHER--THIS COW WAS NEVER INTENDED FOR
SALE OR CONSUMPTION) had a downer cow. It happens. Broken leg, poor
constitution, whatever. A downer is simply classified by the fact that it can't walk on its
own. The dairyman sends the cow off to be slaughtered. It sits in a lot pen with other
cows until it is slaughtered under a lot number. Because the cow was a downer cow, and
because we have VERY STRICT GUIDELINES for downer cows, the cow's tissues were
sent off to be tested. It happens for EVERY DOWNER COW. It's a red flag, and is
something we do on a daily basis for every downer cow. This one happened to come back
with BSE+ tissues. The slaughter didn't happen yesterday when the news broke.

At the moment, all we have to go on is a lot number---not even the specific dairy where
the cow came from. It takes time to establish a transmission line; whether the cow was
infected here, or was an imported cow from Canada. The feed line is a moot point. All of
the dairies nowadays don't feed animal by-products to dairy cattle. Every dairy I know
feeds soy-based feeds, simply because of the risk of transmission. When the dairy of
origin is established, then the people involved can take steps to reduce further
transmission.

Of course people will be having beef for Christmas. I'm not missing my roast'n'yorkshire
on Christmas for this, and chances are that I have been on whatever dairy this is, and had
my hand up that very cows ass at one time or another. You can subject yourself to all the
media hype you want, but don't seek to infect others with your own personal brand of
poison.

Bill is right, the ranching industry is finally making some headway, but I stress again, that
this was NOT a beef cow. Holsteins are not bred for beef. Outside of a brief time held in
slaughter or sales pens, most Holsteins never even see an Angus or Hereford in their little
bovine lives.

Now, I have to go get ready for a meeting with Ag and Fed types who actually have a
handle on this (instead of crap-media offerings). Enjoy your Christmas with your kin, and
eat whatever you want. If it hasn't got you by now, chances are it won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:21 PM

Amen. It is a tragedy here too in Western Washington..I can look out my windows and see cows grazing. I love them to pieces. I pray for the farmers and the consumers..mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:25 PM

bill d. the US cattle ranchers had an excellent year, not due to the Atkins diet, but the fact that the border was closed (and remains so)to Canadian beef
within minutes of Canada's announcement that it found an infected cow.
(funny that the Canadians have not done the same to US beef, at this point)

its an excellent example of how the economic impact is not accurately
assessed - because if the true economic justification for feeding recycled meat/beef products to cattle - (turning them into carnivores and cannibals) were calculated then it would include the risk of industry losses in exactly such a situation.
(just do a google search for 'economists were surprised' and youll see what I mean)

the Canadian beef industry has lost an estimated 2$billion (imagine a
rancher getting a $1.25 for a cow at the market when it would normally fetch $700) and the US market still hasnt fully opened.
(Japan insists that every Canadian cow be tested- wonder if they will do that with US beef - of the millions that are slaughtered each year only about 20,000 were tested)

even after what happened in the UK a few years with BSE, (the problem is man-made because even though sheep had scrapies for centuries- it was passed on to cattle by feeding them ground up sheep carcasses)
you would think they should ban feeding ground up meat to cattle entirely.

(the irony is also that farmers and ranchers are finding it hard to make a go of it because of the low prices, but I think a lot of people would pay more for grass fed organic beef - also increasing the value for the farmer)

DOnt expect the price of beef to drop, last summer Id go the stores
expecting to get a deal and the prices were almost the same - except the ranchers only got about 25% of the previous price. - go figure


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM

Well, I'm an omnivore and not letting this incident scare me. (I'm still concerned about the source of some hamburger and have been for quite awhile. I'm also concerned about factory-raised chicken and the fact that you can't avoid frankenfood these days.) And I hadn't realized it was a downer dairy cow. I know lots more about dairy cows than beef critters, since I'm from Wisconsin.

Curmudgeon and I are having steak and mushroom pie for Christmas -- oh, and cheeseburgers tonight.

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: open mike
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:31 PM

the BSE may not be exactly the same as
scrappie but there are similarities.
also similar to wasting disease found
in elk and deer and there is an example
of a similar condition found in humans..
the papua new guinea tribe who used to
be canabals were found to have contracted
a similar condition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:34 PM

if there aren't laws to prevent feeding that junk to cows and at least other herbivores, which I truly wish I was, there should be. It is insanity if it is still going on...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:36 PM

Jen Ellen, having a bad day???...

I think it should be obvious to anyone taking part in this discussion that small farming operations are not likely to be the ones that are engaging in the practices that lead to BSE...but sadly they may well be affected economically. This happened in Britain with both BSE and hoof and mouth...

I still maintain it was only a matter of time before this happened here; if anything, the USA has the most egregious factory farming practices of any in the world, and at this level is all about the bottom line, and not the health or well-being of animals or consumers...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:46 PM

I remember 6 years ago the US beef industry sued Oprah Winfrey for Millions of dollars for mentioning BSE on her show.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 05:14 PM

we need to realize that farming is the most important thing we do, and we should be doing on a basically smaller scale. When it comes to cows, there should be way more grass fed cattle. We have to pay more for our food period, and we need it produced in more human, sustainable ways. We need to eat more real food and less packaged stuff for sure..shelf life is probably inversely correlated with nutrition and we have done things for the convenience of grocers rather than health of our people. We have to quit gobbling up farm land, driving farming families off their lands..I could go on at length. We need more permaculture, like orchards and nuts especially...we need more people working on the farms as careers. We need better safety and hygiene etc. in slaughterhouses..which I question if they are a good idea in the first place. Smaller farms, roving slaughtering operations that come to the farm...who knows. More inspections. More cost to the consumer, but if it gets high enough we will raise more of our own food, which we should be doing anyway. And to think we are stupid enough as a nation to pave over the best farmland in the world and then import food from countries with who knows what diseases, to say nothing of interuptions of supply lines etc. It all drives me nuts. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 06:46 PM

stupid question probably but what happens to a Holstein at a slaughterhouse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 06:54 PM

It is illegal to feed beef byproducts to cattle, and has been for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:04 PM

that is what I thought...stupid as it is you can't imagine anyone doing it...we have lost our collective senses..but in a way that is worse...because then how did the cow get it? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:14 PM

Dairy cows who can no longer produce enough milk are slaughtered and used for pet food and cheap ground beef products like frozen burger patties and sausage and hot dogs.

"Ms Veneman said that only the "muscle cuts" had been sent for processing for human consumption and there was no record of the disease being transmitted through the meat. The brain and spinal column had been sent to a "rendering facility" elsewhere, but she did not specify how it had been used." (Guardian UK)

"Yesterday, Elsa Murano, under secretary of agriculture for food safety, said its brain and spinal column had been sent to such a plant, to be turned into protein feed, oils and other products. It is the brain and spinal cord that are the most likely to be infected with prions, the misfolded proteins that can lead to a mad-cow-like disease in humans." (NY Times)

It does point out the ridiculousness of testing for BSE in downer animals but not requiring the results of those tests before the animal is, er, processed. The infectious prions are mostly found in nerve tissue, but are also present in other tissues in smaller quantities.

To date, the USDA has stalled on releasing mad cow records to UPI for 6 months under the FOIA. It seems highly unlikely that only ONE cow out there in the US has this disease. Just over 20,000 cattle were tested last year, which seems like a lot until you realize we are talking about a herd oF 35 million. With such a long incubation period, it's very difficult to track this disease.

Art, some ranchers have been violating the feed ban, according to the GAO last year. They aren't usually punished. Besides, it's not illegal to render cows, feed them to pigs, and then render the pig and feed it to humans. Calves are allowed to be fed beef blood and fat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:15 PM

...render cows, feed them to pigs, and then render the pig and feed it to humans...

....or back to cows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:19 PM

Of course any containment program will be designed to protect the big producers at the expense of smaller, usually safer, farmers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM

everything that Elsa Murano has said, that it was an isolated case
and so on, is exactly what the Canadian agricultural minister said
and yet the US shut the border to Canadian beef within minutes.
so what do they expect from other countries?

scrapie is not exactly the same as bse because it is a sheep brain wasting disease - and has been around for centuries - sheep end up rubbing against walls, fences hence the name - but when scrapie infected sheep were ground up and fed to cows in the UK we had an entirely new disease, because that is the only way that cows could get it since normally cows do not eat meat.
essentially, scrapie, bse, kuru (the new guinean human version) and cjd creutfeld jakob all share the same thing - the prion, which is a kind of protein, although not living, it can make copies of itself and is difficult/or damn near impossible to destroy. I understand that
medical examiners shun autopsies of suspected cases as it is not possible to sterilize the equipment.

and as far as I know, beef by-products are still used in feed - they only removed the 'risky' bits, such as spinal cord and brain matter.

correct me if Im wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mooman
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:32 PM

TSEs (e.g. Elk CWD) in some of the the native Cervid species (deer, elk) in the US is endemic and has been known about for a very long time. Scrapie was first diagnosed in a US sheep flock in 1947.

What is not yet well understood (and the same applies to BSE and the possible relationship to nvCJD) are the risks and modes of transmission from food animals to humans. There have been several cases in the US of unusually young CJD patients who have consumed a lot of venison but the scientific jury is still out (according to the latest information I have) as to whether there is a causal link. There is ample evidence, however, that TSE prions can withstand the normal rendering process.

Fortunately the situation may be likely to be easier to monitor in the US than it was in the UK due to the current development of reliable and accurate tests (from Switzerland and the UK and laboratories elsewhere) that can diagnose the disease in live animals. Hopefully some of these rapid in-vitro tests may be approved for application in the near future.

Here's a brief update on current progress on developing rapid TSE tests

Regarding scrapie, the following is a very recent summary of known cases:

Scrapie incidence in US sheep flocks

Peace,

moo (an unfortunate moniker in this instance)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 07:50 PM

Jen Ellen has a veritable point.

I suspect that any ban on America Beef is nore conected with fiscal sanctions rather than public health issues.

Just a little story, which I can warrent true.

In the mid 70's I was working for a firm of Lloyds (Insurance) Brokers. We had a master cointract for the insurance of meat from OZ to Europe and the US Of A.

A shipment of Frozen beef was unloaded at one of the Gulf ports, and had passed both the US inspection at the pacjing plant, and at the point of entery.

It was shipped by rail to Chicago - The train derailed, and the refrrigerated cars lay on the side of the track for a day or two. No power. No refrigeration.

Bluntly when they were salvaged the cartons/carcases were crawling with Maggots acording to the survey of the Local Lloyds Agents.

I was prepared to agree a Total Loss with underwiters and owners.

Total Loss ? - NO! The meat had been passed as fit for human consumption at the point of despatch, and the point of entry.

No problem, wash the beef, and sell it.

Makes yer think don't it.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Gypsy
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:18 PM

Well, our beef has been banned by Canada as well as the other countries. This is over 3 billion dollars in the industry as of 2003. Stock market is swaying violently. We are in for interesting times right now, i am afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:47 PM

Australian producers have been trying (in spite of Aust Govt attitudes) to stop import of many foodstuffs from countries that have widespread occurrences of parasitea and diseses that are not present in Australia. Salmon, etc.

The WTO has been used to defeat these attempts.

Go figure.

Aussie beef farmers are unable to take up the slack

1) we sell beef to the USA!!!

2) Aussie beef farmers have been seriously kncked about by the drought. So no spare capacity.


Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 09:03 PM

Mary G...You say "farming is the most important thing we do"
To my way of thinking ,farming ,and especially intensive farming is the most destructive thing we do.
Im afraid the blame for the arrival of BSE,lies squarely on the shoulders of the farmers.I live in a sheep and beef cattle area in Scotland and most of the farmers are well known for love of money before anything else.When i was a boy this area had a mixed farming economy .The farms produced a wide range of foodstuffs, the farmers didnt make much money, but the work provided lots of much needed employment.
Round about the mid 70s the farmers realised that there were big profits in raising beef cattle,so they sacked all their workers, turned their farm steadings into cattle courts,and ordered the BMWs and 4 x 4s.They used anti- biotics indiscriminately,and used meat derived feed because it was cheaper, although they had been warned frequently by scientists, of problems in the future.   Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 09:05 PM

I don't know where Jen Ellen got her information from, but it is absolutely wrong. The meat from that downer cow got into the food system, and the USDA is attempting to track it down and find it now: all they have said is that it went into further processing.

We (I'm Canadian) import American beef here, and the US imports Canadian beef. When we had our one case of BSE a few months ago, the US shut down our entire export within minutes of the news announcement. They have still allowed only a very limited amount of Canadian beef to cross their border. Japan still won't allow untested Canadian beef. I won't eat American beef because of the growth hormones they use.

There is no chance that this American Holstein is connected in any way to the Canadian case -- it's not even the same breed of cow.

It's time to stop the greed, which is usually the basis of events like these.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Beardy
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 09:39 PM

JenEllen I feel for you if you are directly affected but if as happened in UK it spreads quickly and without boundaries start panicking now.

Another thing that the spokesman said on BBC radio 4 this morning was that cattle in USA are not individually identified through ear tags etc (I don't know if this was correct). In the UK we had this ID method and still took ages to trace infection lines. If this infection spreads I don't see a quick end due to the inability to trace the spread of cattle across the states. If this sounds pessimistic I apologise but reality sucks big time! However if the US Govt were only testing 20,000 from 35 Million as stated in other posts I would say that smacks of either arrogance or negligence, either of which when the health of the public is at risk is unforgiveable.

Hoping this is an isolated case.

Stewart


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Amos
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:52 PM

The panics are being fedf by massive misinterpretation by media, who are invested in their ability to electrify and alarm.

The media tales don't even MENTION this cow was a dairy cow and that American herds are not fed processed cow, but are instead fed soy products. They do not include the time frame in their stories between the time of analysis and the time of reuslts and the time of slaughter.

These critical distortions are creating economic waves far out of proportion to the facts of the case. Those who accept thew media version of reality will live in a world much more frightening than it needs to be



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 12:39 AM

While I don't watch TV, the on-line news from AP, CNN, ABC, MSNBC, CBS and BBC all say she was a dairy cow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 06:42 AM

Amos ...The reason that BSE symptoms show up in dairy animals ,is that they live longer than beef cattle.Dairy cattle can have a working life of up to 8 yrs,whereas beef cattle are usually slaughtered around 2yrs,before the symptoms have appeared.
This does not mean that they are not carrying the BSE prion.
In Britain thousands of apparently healthy cattle were slaughtered because of this...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 07:52 AM

Never eat a cannibal cow. That seem pretty basic sense.

And, since in these days you can't trust what you are told by the authorities and shops, for most of us that has to mean never eat a cow.

I believe buffalo is supposed to be very tasty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 11:52 AM

if the whole world went vegetarian, and animals weren't factory famrmed, you would never have anything this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: JenEllen
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 03:21 PM

Yes, Guest 12/24, a really bad day.

The briefings yesterday went as such:

The cow was born in 1999---2 years after the law was passed banning feeding parts to cows. The dairy bought her in 2001 and she lived there until she was paralyzed in calving and sent to slaughter on the 9th of Dec. From the owner's lips (I was right, I'd been to that farm before), he said she was showing no symptoms. She was sent with 18 other cows to a Mosess Lake slaughterhouse, tested as downers are, and processed. I assume her meat went where dairy meat goes because she was asymptomatic. Dairy meat does not go into regular processing. It is not going to be your roast, or the steaks at Bennigans or anything like that because a dairy cow is basically a skeleton with boobs. The meat is horrible. It is most likely that the meat went for lower grade consumptions.

As USDA standards require, the response team first quarantines the herd (being done as we speak--the Sunny Dene is under lockdown), the cows will have to be tested. This will require killing the entire herd, and also tracking down the cows that were in the original herd the cow came from before the SD. The animals will be disposed of, and the owners will be compensated for their loss.

Before some other nitwit gets on a high horse, that simply means the meat market value of the animals. It does not guarantee lost wages for the dozens of feeders and milkers that rely on the Sunny Dene Ranch for income. A new herd might be able to be purchased, but because they will only be able to afford fresh cows, it'll take over a year for them to get back on their feet.

It's not a government conspiracy today. Today, it's a whole bunch of families in Dairy Row sitting in parked cars at the end of their driveways to stop people from breaking in and hurting their cows. It's also an entire family at Sunny Dene for whom Christmas is totally lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 03:33 PM

Thanks, JenEllen-the voice of reason is a refreshing one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,& Concerned
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:32 PM

JenEllen

I'm not a nitwit, if that referred to me.

I personally hope all the factory farmers go out of business a.s.a.p and without compensation from the taxpayer, by the state.

If farming practices were sound, there would be no such thing as BSE, Listeria et al.

In other countries, such as India, they treat these animals with respect, maybe because what goes around comes around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:51 PM

I coudnt agree more GUEST.
Intensive farming is a disgrace,but its not only factory farmers who are the villians.Round here its family farms, and Iv watched large doses of steriods administered to young healthy beasts ,simply to put on weight.
Almost every farmer Iv ever met you would think had come out of the same mould.Penny pinching ,avaricious and devious.
I think its something to do with the "market mentality",its a matter of principle to them to be crooked....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:54 PM

l Dairy farming here in Washington, at least on the wet side of the mountains, is not factory farming. It is small family farming at its best. It is what America was founding on and hopefully will return somewhat to. Many if not most dairy farmers in western Washington have gone out of business...at least part of the reason is urban sprawl, some is environmental regulation..like cows can't get near streams etc...and some is drop in demand due to dairyphobia. I too hope the insanity involved in meat and dairy production is stopped..by law and by consumers turning to better grown products...I am not for forced feeding, cramped, immobile conditions, antibiotics etc. and not for the slaughterhouse conditions that are horrible for animals and the poor immigrant workers who slice their arms off working there. Actually I probably agree with you. I would like to see small farms, with people making decent livings, with the land zoned for eternity. I would also like to see drops in the population so that there is less demand. We used to have a lot of Swiss people doing dairy here..as well as Danes...you should have seen Puget Island and down where I lived in Longview (which itself was a mill town..not dairy). Anyway, I hope this is one of our last wakeup calls.    I can't imagine the IQ of someone who would feed cowparts to cows.

There is the whole manure question, methane etc.. I think it is quite overcomable, and perhaps is exaggerated..I don't know. I personally worry more about all the cat litter in landfills doing God knows what kind of mutations....

And JenEllen..I thought it was trucked to Centralia..which doesn't make sense crossing the mountains in the winter...it supposedly is in the food chain in Portland stores perhaps as something...at least meat from the Centralia slaughterhouse (or maybe it was just packed there) went to Portland.

I dare say we are smart enough to test at least each herd, and to keep them more or less in once place rather than having these giant feedlots from all over. That too is nuts. Grassfed cows, like nature intended for at least part of the human race. Read Dr. Mary Enig.

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 04:58 PM

In India, starvng semi-feral cows wander the streets, through busy traffic, anywhere, leaving little smelly unhygenic presents behind. Even in India, there is dispute whether this reflects respect for the animals, or other things.

There is a charity now rounding up starving cows and moving them out of public areas, and feeding them, but their funds are limited, and compared to the size of the problem, the effect is still neglible.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,& concerned
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 05:18 PM

Robin

If that is so, and I haven't been to India to see for myself, it makes no difference.

I would rather see them clogging up traffic somewhere, than living a pitiless life in a factory farm for the profit of people who don't care about them, apart from the profit they can make.

If you are worried about the enviroment, look around you and see what humans have done to it.

Did any animal ever invent a weapon of mass destruction for example?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 08:44 PM

some animals are weapons of mass destruction..like flies and rats carrying plagues. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 11:08 PM

I don't think factory farms are good, or better that India's lousy handling of the mess.

In fact, Cows ARE a "Weapon of Mass Destruction" - all those methane loaded farts - (wait on, I'm stumbling into Spaw's Territory of Expertise!) do great havoc with the ozone layer and Greeenhouse effect.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 11:45 PM

is the methane problem because the cows are all in one place? If 1 million cows were scattered over 1million miles would there be the same problem as if they were in one square mile or whatever? I think there is no excuse for overcrowding these poor animals and we just have to get used to treating them better, getting better nutrition in the bargain, and we'll just have to pay more. Perhaps much more. That will pose a problem for poor people of course. We need to relook at food stamps so a higher percentage of the stamps is for whole foods, such as meat, fruit, etc., and a very limited amount is for foods with low nutritional value. This will help the farmer and the food stamp recipient. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 02:01 AM

Doesn't matter how spread out they are - it's the cumulative volume emitted per year.

Just how many millions of cows & sheep, do you think there are in the world? - there's a lot more than you think - after all there are more sheep in New Zealand than people (sorry, just had to get that joke in!)... but it's not a joke, - it's true!

And a problem for the poor is that more and more processed food (which is more expensive) is being marketed, so why should they have to be the only ones scratch cooking at home all the time?

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: ced2
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 05:34 AM

As to high horses.. in the UK the farming lobby spent a lot of money and time saying that there was nothing wrong with British beef, that it was just like scrapie and humans could not be harmed. I actually chaired a meeting between Professor Lacey and the Chief Executive Officer of the Meat & Livestock Federation. That meeting was deluged with farmers all intent on shouting down the advice that we as trade union safety reps were tryibg to get over to slaughterhouse workers etc. The basic arguement that the farmers seemed to have was its my livelyhood nothing is wrong and you keep your nose out. This despite the fact that scientists had by that time managed to get the prion to jump 2 more species barriers. It was several more years before a Tory Minister stood up in the House of Commons and told the truth. In the meanwhile the meat and farming industry lobby continued to resist all curbs. They were still supporting mechanically recovered meat, pushed the "nothing wrong with our feed" line, resisted the proper disposal of downed stock, (as being too expensive) resisted the banning of specified ofal from the food chain (cos it reduced the amount of money that could be made from a carcass) and also resisted the imposition of a verifiable stock recording system that would eventually lead to the control if not removal of BSE from the British Bovine Herd.
Unfortunately these tactics have very probably contibuted to the human toll resulting in deaths of people from new varient CJD.
Before anyone shouts about high horses perhaps they should talk to the relatives of those who died from nvCJD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Sooz
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 07:29 AM

In a butchers shop in Edale (Derbyshire UK) there is a sign which reads "Our cows are vegetarians so you don't have to be". Its a good rule to follow. (Me, I'll remain as near to the beginning of the food chain as I can. I'm just heating up the nut roast leftovers from yesterday!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:39 PM

Jen Ellen I am sorry for your time of extreme stress and I thank you for your honest disclosure of your necessary bias in providing information. (I'm not being sarcastic.) Thanks to people like ced2 for interesting information from others who have gone before. For the basics, folks, I recommend a start at cdc.gov, then move around (carefully) through other sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 03:04 PM

It now appears possible that the infected cow came from Alberta a couple of years ago, but this hasn't been confirmed yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Alice
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 03:12 PM

Alberta, Canada, source of the Washington state cow - article here:


USDA Says Mad Cow Animal Imported from Canada, Reuters News
Summary: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Agriculture Department said on
Saturday it believes a dairy cow infected with mad cow disease was imported
from Canada in 2001. Ron DeHaven, the USDA's chief veterinarian, told reporters
the cow was one of 74 cattle imported into Idaho from Alberta, Canada, in
August 2001. The cow was born in April 1997.

http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=031227&cat=news&st=newsmadcowdc
Note: This article expires on: 12.30.2003 at 12:00 am


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Melani
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 03:59 PM

I have always eaten beef with enthusiasm, but this seems like a really good reason to eat only organic grass-fed beef. There was an expert (I forget the name) interviewed on NPR who pointed out that cases of BSE do happen spontaneously every now and then.

JenEllen, if the meat was being tested because she was a "downer" cow, why was it sent on for processing before the test results were recieved? How does that help keep contaminated meat out of the food chain? Now they're hustling around trying to track it--couldn't they have just held onto it in the first place until they knew if it was safe--or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: JenEllen
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 05:10 PM

Hi Melani. I think it's a case of potential danger. The government requires the testing, but the public also demands fresh meat. Seeing as there wasn't a problem before, they try to speed up the process and test because of the formality. There are several programs available to track cows by computer and know exactly where they are, living or dead,, but for the expense, and the fact that no problem had surfaced before, the consensus has been 'why bother'. I'm not saying it's good, just that it's the nature of the beast. Like people who will continaully answer cell calls while driving, that is, until they wreck. We just wrecked.

Sooz and Guest, you're right, the grass-fed cows are better eating, but this wasn't an 'eating cow'. Other ways you can avoid the risk of tainted meat is to know your cow. Buy one and give it to a rancher to graze, have it butchered yourself. Another way to avoid inferior meats is to buy a roast at the butchers and have that ground into burger. You know the quality of the meat, and it's not mixed with inferior cuts. A lot of it is simply a matter of information, and it seems that people would rather be reactive than proactive.

Concerned Guest, my 'nitwit' comment was in reference to the people who would assume that governmental compensation for killing the SD cows will cover all of the losses that the dairy will incur because of this outbreak. As Mary stated, many of these dairies are family farms. I can't speak for everyone on the aspect of 'humane treatment' at dairies, but I think for the ones I know personally, the animals are tended to quite well, the shock comes in public thought. Consumers like to think that their milk and butter and cheese comes from happy cows that live in grassy pastures and are milked by a little old man with a bucket and a three-legged stool. They aren't willing to pay for it, but they like to think it anyway. They also like to get offended when the reality doesn't match their expectations. You mention that without factory farms there would be no disease? The diseases were here well before we were, and once again it boils down to consumers. If the cost of beef reflected the actual cost that the animal places on the environment? No one would be able to afford it, but they are willing to pay a reduced amount for a lot of products that probably aren't produced with good intentions. Wal-Mart Mentality is an ugly thing. However, I still think it's wrong to punish the few for the sins of the many.

Heric, thank you for your kindness. It is truly undeserved. After watching CNN spread wrong news all across the country that morning, I should have just taken a deep breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: MAG
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:16 AM

I went to organic beef after a drive by the feed lots in the fall.

At the moment I'm thinking more about all those sacks of "steer" manure compost in the parking lot of every warehouse store three seasons out of the year. The rendering plant 40 miles from here has acres and acres of the stuff out drying and aging right by the highway. JenEllen, is this stuff safe? Are brains and spines in this vector?

For myself I am also more concerned about stuff like beef cattle being slaughtered while still conscious. At that same plant workers smuggled out a videotape of same, they hated it so much.

And did everybody (U.S.)have a Norbest turkey on Thanksgiving? I order a range fed turkey and it was still Norbest, which belongs to our very biggest agribusiness conglomerate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: IvanB
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:17 AM

I spent 32+ years working for a state department of agriculture in the areas of meat inspection, dairy and animal health. Although I might take minor issue with a couple of JenEllen's points I think, for the most part, she has a good grasp of the issues and has made a very cogent argument for the role of the farmer in our lives.

One fact that hasn't been mentioned in all of this is that, for many years now, the U.S. has had a "cheap food" policy. I haven't kept track since I retired in 1998, but then the average food costs for a U.S. family were slightly less than 16% of income and were falling (in terms of percentage of income). While this is all well and good, it puts the lie to many of the myths we'd like to believe about U.S. farming practices. Although I lament the demise of the "family farm" as much as any the fact is that most family farms cannot effect the efficiencies necessary to produce a product at a low enough cost to fit within the cheap food policy. The profit margin in farming makes it almost impossible for a young person to start a family farm - the cost of the debt incurred to start the farm would probably be too high for a living to be made. Most successful family farms today are those in which the farm has been in the family for several generations thus having no debt load on the land itself. But, as farming couples die childless or children of farm families decide to leave the farm, it's unlikely there will be enough new family farms started to replace them and the trend is ever downward.

Diseases were mentioned above. Fifty years ago, diseases such as brucellosis and tuberculosis - both diseases far more easily transmissible directly from animals and animal products to humans than BSE - were endemic in our livestock. While I recognize that "factory" farming has introduced its own set of disease problems, I'd wager that incidences of both animal diseases and of human diseases caused by ingestion of diseased or tainted animal products are far lower today than ever before.

Ruminant animals (mainly cattle and sheep for purposes of this discussion) are the only animals capable of producing protein from grassland. As such, they are the only meat animals not in direct competition with humans for food. Dairy cows are essentially fed on grass with feed supplements calculated to increase milk production. Beef cattle, for the most part, are grazed for the first part of their lives, then are finished out with grain and supplements geared to meat production. Although we'd be far healthier eating beef from cattle that had spent their life grazing, the average U.S. citizen much prefers the marbled fat in the meat of grain-fed cattle.

I guess the point I'd like to make with all of this is that, to a great extent, it's our desires as a consuming public that bring about many of the ills about which we love to raise such a fuss. As JenEllen mentioned above, few of us would probably be able to afford meat or, for that matter, many other products, if the true environmental and/or social costs were added to their price. We can ask why the meat from downers is not held pending laboratory tests, but to do so would add to the cost of meat in general and would probably not make our meat supply enough safer to justify the added cost. For the most part, it's a policy which causes no problems but occasionally it comes back to haunt us - and it has.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 01:39 AM

"[Theories] are creations of the human mind, and they are not, however it might seem, uniquely determined by the external world. In our endeavour to understand reality we are somewhat like a person trying to understand the mechanism of a closed watch. They see the face and moving hands, but they have no way of opening the case. If they are ingenious they may form some picture of a mechanism which could be responsible for all the things they see, but they may never be quite sure their picture is the only one which will explain their observations. They will never be able to compare their picture with the real mechanism..."

        -- Albert Einstein


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Melani
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 04:12 PM

Everybody please read "Fast Food Nation."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: mg
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 08:49 PM

I think we need to be prepared to spend much more money on food...where would it come from? Less on alcohol, drugs, prescriptions, some of which are not only unnecessary but harmful, cosmetics, wasteful transportation, excess housing, video games, night clubbing, clothing, upgrading computers constantly, unnecessary housewares, useless gifts, baby trinkets, newspapers, books etc. Food, air, water..basic shelter and clothing...we really don't need much else....mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Gypsy
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 10:03 PM

JenEllen, me hats off to ye. And my sympathies lie with you. Uh, those that are bemoaning farming.......whattaya eat, hmmmmmm? Himself and i raised livestock for years, and now do fruit. It is a living, not a great one, but a living. Before judgments are made, perhaps you should try it sometime. Not all of us can afford organic anything, much less beef that retails for 20$ a pound. Or cucumbers that are 2$ a piece. Just a little food for thought.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: MAG
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 11:37 PM

Fortunately for me, organics beef and produce isn't nearly so high here, since there is a decent market for it, here in wheat country.

Not that I think anyone here would point fingers; we all always take everything the best possible way, yes? I personally was just grossed out by the conditions in which the animals are finished.

Jen, do take care and I'll just m,ake a point to shoot off in that direction sometime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: NicoleC
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 11:48 PM

You know, I keep hearing about how healthy food is SOOOO expensive, yet $4 bags of potato chips with zero nutritional value is cheap? $5 frozen pasta dinners? Prepared foods are FAR more expensive than good quality produce.

For those who are genuinely interested in both supporting local farming efforts and eating healthy, there is such a thing as CSA, or Community Supported Agriculture. Details vary by farm, but basically, you subscribe to a farm. Your money provides steady operating capital for the farm. In return, each week you get a box of whatever they have ripe that week, and often farms trade with other CSA farms to add more variety to their boxes. Depending on the farm, you either have a local pick-up location, you pick up at the farm, or the farm delivers. Most of these farms are organic or at least responsible, sustainable agriculture. Some farms run all year and some close down for a couple of months in the winter. Some also have eggs, dairy and cheese available, and even chickens and fish and rabbits and other traditional farm creatures.   Many of thse farms also sell at farmers markets, so if you have a favorite stand at the farmer's market, you may be able to go direct.

I used to pay $13/week for a box of produce that could feed 4 people in No Cal. It was a LOT of veggies and fruit, all of which were picked that morning or the previous day. In the winter we had a lot of turnips, potatoes, nuts, squash, broccoli, kale and mandarin oranges. In the summer we had great heirloom tomatoes and the rest of the great bounty of summer.

Most of the rest of the country is more expensive, but I found a CSA farm in rural Alabama for my Mom that charges $1050/year, or about $20/week for produce service. That's cheap compared to what most families spend at the grocery store each week, and they also offer meat and dairy products for additional costs.

It's good for the farmers, good for the environment because they use sustainable practices and you aren't buying produce that's been shipped 1300 miles to your grocery store, and good for you and your family because the fresher the produce, the more vitamins and nutrients and taste it has.

If you are going to freak out because there is still some dirt (and other schmutz) clinging to your zucchini or the tomato is an odd shape and has splits in the skin, then CSA is not for you. That may sound silly, but some people really do have a hard time with that sort of thing. I'm the opposite to that. We grew our own food when I was a kid, so I'm always suspicious when the produce is too clean and pretty :)

What is CSA?
USDA Database of CSA farms


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 12:50 AM

I knew it! I just knew that that cow was a furriner, not one of our good, wholesome, pure, American cows!

Seriously, form of spongiform encephalopathy has been found in Kentucky; it seems to affect those that eat squirrel brains on toast, a local delicacy. A variant is sometimes found in cannibals. If you have CJD, they won't let you give blood -- they ask me about it every time I donate!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Marion
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 01:20 AM

I just read an article about Marwyn Peaster, the Alberta farmer from whose farm the first Canadian case was found earlier this year: here's the full article.

I will quote the part that surprised me:

But if [neighbouring farmer] Frape didn't feel resentment, something else he says reveals a cynicism a number of locals share regarding Peaster.

"Some people are cattle farmers. Marwyn's a grain farmer."

If he did know more about how to manage ranches and sickly cows, many say he would have followed the advice of many farmers that was repeated by [Alberta Premier] Ralph Klein: shoot, shovel, shut up.

"I'd shoot the bloody thing and bury it or burn it," nearby rancher John Gulick says. "I had a cow the other day, who broke her back, accidentally. It's what you do."

Peaster, who first bought cattle in August 2002, regrets not knowing about possibly following that ethically questionable cover-up method. But contrary to the widely held belief, he sent the sick, black Angus to slaughter for his own family's freezer.


Are farmers expected to report it to the Ministry of Agriculture if they have a cow sicken or die mysteriously?

And did the premier of Alberta really say that farmers should keep it to themselves when that happens? I'm no supporter of Ralph Klein, but I find it hard to believe that he'd openly say that, when it clearly has human health implications.

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Cruiser
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 01:10 PM

Thanks for the "local delicacy" link Rapaire.

My kinfolks are from Tennessee and they consumed most of the edible parts of a squirrel. When some of them moved to Texas, that culinary tradition continued. As a kid, I hunted squirrel with my grandfather. I cleaned and ate a lot of squirrel and tried squirrel brains once with scrambled eggs. I did not ever like the dark meat of the squirrel and definitely did not like the brains, heart, or the liver.

My grandfather and his sister, who grew up in TN and consumed squirrel brains in Texas also, lived into their late '80s. I did have an uncle, my grandfathers son, that died in the early 1980s of what doctors said was brain cancer. He was an avid hunter and guide and frequently consumed venison and elk meat, as I did. I am not making a connection to his death from brain cancer as possibly CJD, but once we learned more about the disease, we all wondered (speculated) about a possible connection.

There are many risks in life. All one can do is continue to educate one's self and make informed decisions. I would never eat squirrel again, not because I am concerned about disease, but because I never liked it and consumed it only out of necessity.

All TSEs are fascinating, from a scientific standpoint and as possible zoonoses (other animal diseases transmittable to humans). Simplistically, any TSE involves errant virus-like protein particles (prions) gone bad.

A definition of TSE from the World Heath Organization:

{Quote}
Transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs) are a family of diseases of humans and animals characterized by spongy degeneration of the brain with severe and fatal neurological signs and symptoms. In animals, scrapie is a common disease in sheep and goats. Mink and North American mule deer and elk can contract TSEs. Bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) is also a TSE, affecting a number of species (cattle, human, cats, some types of animals in 300 settings).
BSE is a transmissible, neuro-degenerative fatal brain disease of cattle. The disease has a long incubation period of 4-5 years and it is fatal for cattle within weeks to months of its onset. The nature of the BSE agent is still being debated. Strong evidence currently available supports the theory that the agent is composed largely, if not entirely, of a self-replicating protein, referred to as a prion. It is transmitted through the consumption of BSE-contaminated meat and bone meal supplements in cattle feed.
{End Quote}

TSE: International Symposium


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 03:12 PM

I've eaten squirrel, but not the brains. Growing up we sometimes had cow brains -- they were cheap food. I didn't care for brains then and I don't now. My opinion on squirrel is that I can eat it or not, so I don't bother.

I've also eaten heart, which when properly prepared is quite tasty.

About the only organ meat I eat now is a very infrequent dish of liver and onions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 07:16 PM

someone mentioned humane treatment,, do you know how they get a 'downer' cow on and off the truck - chain them and pull them off..

how the current bse case plays out in the US is going to depend more on the consumer reaction rather than the export market (since only a small percentage is exported - as opposed to Canadas 75%) In canada
beef consumption actually went up - and oddly enough even though the
farmers only got 20% of the previous price of beef - youd go to the store thinking you might get a bargain and it was maybe 5%-10% cheaper
(when asked about this the spokesman at the supermarket said there are so many added costs - such as transportation and so on...)
yea right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 09:29 PM

> Also; weren't some deaths in the UK attributed to BSE found in
> people who did ot eat beef? I had gathered at one point that it was
> not exactly clear how this could be spread...

This is absolutely true. You cam now get BSE from just about any kind of meat now.

This is because many of the cows suffering from Mad Cow (in England) with BSE had the blood and meat, and bone meal rendered and placed into food for all kinds of other animals.

so people can get BSE now by eating beef, pork, goat,lamb, fish, chicken, and just about anything else you can name.

The animals above can not get BSE from eating grass, or being around BSE infected animals. the way animals get BSE is by ingesting food with prions.

The animals eat food with the prion, and the prions are transmitted through the intestines into the blood stream, and when the prions get to the brain; the prions start making holes through the brain of the animal like swiss cheese.

There is a less danger of getting BSE from eating the mussle tissue; but eating the brains, or meat from the area of the spine of the animal because an animal suffering from BSE will have a MUCH higher concentration of prions there. I would not recommend eating hamburger, or sausage because assorted portions of the animal is ground to make these foods.

The prion is a modified protein, and cooking the meat well done will NOT kill the prions. Scientists have tried to kill them by exposing them to temperatures over 1000 degrees farenheit. I like my steak well done; but that is over the top.

As I have told some Mudcat participants; I have been clairvoyant since I was a child.

I have known this or something similar was coming for more than 7 years (1997). In meditation; I was shown people dying of starvation, and disease, and the time frame I was given was 2004 - 2010.

What do we do?

1. Contact the congressmen and Senators and tell them to make it illegal for farmers with suspected BSE infected enimals to render the animals into food for other animals.

2. Be smart in choosing the meat we buy for food. no brains, backbone, hamburger or sausage.

3. If you practise Reiki, Seichim, Qigong, HUNA, etc and channel energy into the cooked food to raise the spiritual vibration of the food.

4. If you are not an energy healer; simply pray and ask the higher power no matter how you may name him/her/it to raise the spiritual vibration of the food and destroy the prions in the meat.

I have heard that some of the BSE animals bone meal is used by farmers in such things as roses. I do not intend to eat roses, but with erosion, and tilling the land could move the bonemeal and prions to food ctops. This should be NO concern. I only posted it so you can keep your eyes open for this.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 09:36 PM

> Well, I'm an omnivore and not letting this incident scare me. (I'm
> still concerned about the source of some hamburger and have been
> for quite awhile. I'm also concerned about factory-raised chicken
> and the fact that you can't avoid frankenfood

Of course; you should not let it scare you, Just be smart by carefully selecting the cuts of meat you buy.

Two Bears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 09:39 PM

> the BSE may not be exactly the same as
> scrappie but there are similarities.
> also similar to wasting disease found
> in elk and deer and there is an example

It IS the same because many of the BSE infected animals in the UK were resndered into food for beef, chicken, lamb, goats, dogs, cats, fish, etc.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 09:43 PM

> I think it should be obvious to anyone taking part in this
> discussion that small farming operations are not likely to be the
> ones that are engaging in the practices that lead to BSE...but
> sadly they may well be affected economically. This happened in
> Britain with both BSE and hoof and mouth...

Unfortunately; small operations are just as lakely to have BSE affected animals because the small farmers goes to the co-op, and buys processed food for their animals. and as I have stated three times now; many of the BSE animals in the UK were rendered and put into food for other animals.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 09:57 PM

> The media tales don't even MENTION this cow was a dairy cow and
> that American herds are not fed processed cow, but are instead fed > soy products. They do not include the time frame in their stories
> between the time of analysis and the time of

It's already in the food chain from U.K. beef that was rendered into food for animals, and the processed animal food was imported here, and fed to OUR animals, and other animals worldwide.

The reason BSE seemed to disappear was because several hundreds of thousands or millions of animals were destroyed, then they bought other animals that were not affected.

Well the Prions get into the food chain, and it takes several years for the prions to replicate in the animal and damage the brain.

The damage here has already been done.

Pork is usually killed for food when it is 1-3 years old, same for beef that is slaughtered for steak, etc. Dairy cows are kepy year after year, and the prions were able to do the damage till the dairy cow exhibited BSE symptoms.

Two Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 10:10 PM

> I think we need to be prepared to spend much more money on
> food...where would it come from? Less on alcohol, drugs,
> prescriptions, some of which are not only unnecessary but harmful, > cosmetics, wasteful transportation, excess housing, video

If the cost of food goes up as you expect; I expect to hear of elderly people to start dying like flies.

I know several people in the apartment complex I live in, and all the money they get is the pittance $572 Social Security, then out of that money is taken money for food, utilities, and rent, Several of them are on food stamps to make ends meet, well if the cost of food goes through the roof; they are going to die by eating dog food, or be kickout on the street because they can not afford their rent because of the food prices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 10:36 PM

Prion-contaminated medical instruments are effectively sterilized by autoclaving at 135 degrees C for 30 minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 10:51 PM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - "A U.S. scientist said on Tuesday a simple treatment combining high pressure with heat could neutralize the proteins that cause mad cow disease, but federal officials had shown little interest in it.

Dr. Paul Brown of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke said his process, developed with European researchers, would inactivate the prion proteins that cause bovine spongiform encephalopathy without damaging the meat. Normal cooking does not affect prions.
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST,WHH
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 08:01 AM

Hope you don't mind me joining in on this. But the whole agri-business concept angers me.

We used to have a number of farmers in our family, and all have given up farming. One even refuses to eat or drink 'store sold' dairy products, including milk, "Because I know what is in it, and what has been done to it."   

If you really want to upset many farmers or farm workers just mention Organo-phosphates. Some of their friends and aquaintances are still suffering from the effects of these chemicals, even though DEFRA refuses to acknowledge any causal link, probably because they (or MAFF before the re-organisation) required farmers to use O.P.s. To many, BSE, and the debacle of the recent Foot and Mouth outbreak in the UK, are the inevitable consequence of ludicrous government policies and the financial pressures put upon independent food producers by big business and the larger food retailers:- supermarket chains in particular.      

From my own reading there also seems to a lot of misunderstanding of "The Science", particularly by politicians and vested interests. It is always informative to identify who funded any research or report. Sponsors have a habit of framing the terms of reference of research in such a way as to exclude too many things that might cast doubt on the required result. (I even wonder how much research never sees the light of day because the results are not what the funding body were hoping for.) I find it is getting increasing difficult to identify science that can be considered truely independent, objective and impartial. We only have to look at the arguments and reports on Genetically Modified Food for apparently 'contradictory science'. (Incedentally, does anyone else remember when we were told DDT and CFCs were safe to use...or want to add to a list of 'safe' products that turned out to be anything but?)

With BSE and F&M we are dealing with prions or pathogens at a microbiological level. They function entirely according to their own nature and are entirely independent of any human law or regulation, indeed they show a refreshing contempt of it. Regulation can at best reduce risk factors, and only a politician will talk of "eradicating a disease". Most biologists I have encountered refer to keeping a particular disease at bay until such a time as the pathogen mutates or becomes immune to the current human intervention. It isn't eliminated, and doesn't go away. It merely bides its time until it finds suitable conditions for the next outbreak.

These 'sutable conditions' seem totally unexpected and usually take us humans completely by surprise. The recent UK Foot and Mouth epidemic, and the Political and Agricultural responses it provoked, are a wonderful demonstration of this 'biding' process at work.

One of the 'big questions' must be whether current agri-business practices actually increase the risk of serious infections, both to humans and to animals. Some recent experiences would seem to suggest it does. When it goes wrong these days it goes spectacularly wrong.

The following is a recent article from New Scientist Magazine written by Debora MacKenzie. It has a bearing on much of what has been said.   

The US meat industry is resisting the banning of crippled cattle from human food, despite the discovery of the first case of BSE in an American cow. The infected cow was a crippled or a "downer" cow, injured by the birth of a large calf.

The cow confirmed positive for BSE on 25 December, after it was slaughtered for food in Washington state earlier in the same month. Meat from the cow was recalled and its herd and offspring were quarantined.

The discovery confirms the longstanding warnings of European veterinary experts that BSE could be present in the US. But stringent controls, including banning crippled cattle from human food, have been resisted.

The US Department of Agriculture has been testing some 30,000 US cattle a year for BSE since 2001, targeting downers because European scientists found such cows were most likely to reveal the presence of BSE in a herd. A downer first revealed the presence of BSE in Canadian cattle in May 2003.

Some 20,000 downers are eaten yearly in the US. Canada and European countries have banned such cattle from human consumption. But the US National Cattlemen's Beef Association told journalists this week that it would continue to resist efforts to declare all downers unfit to eat.

Cattle feed ban

US officials are stressing that the infected cow was born in Canada. But Canadian agriculture minister Bob Speller told a press conference in Winnipeg on Monday that it might still have contracted the infection from cattle remains in feed that came from the US. The two countries' beef industries have been closely linked for decades.

The cow was born four months before a ban on using cattle remains in cattle feed took effect in the US and Canada in 1997. US officials stress that, even if there was some infection in the US herd then, the feed ban would have kept it from spreading.

But critics, including Swiss scientists who reviewed Canada's similar BSE controls earlier this year, say infection could still have spread. Cattle remains are still permitted in feed for chickens and pigs. When the European Union had similar rules, substantial BSE contamination still managed to enter cattle feed - leading European countries to ban cattle in all feed.

Cattle blood is also permitted in calf feeds in the US. Blood may carry BSE. A blood transfusion was suspected to have caused a case of the human equivalent, vCJD, in the UK, earlier in December (ref).
If any BSE is circulating in US cattle, US consumers may be at risk. The brain and spinal cord, which harbour most of the infection, are not removed from most cattle on slaughter. US studies revealed in 2002, that 35 per cent of mechanically recovered meat - the bits sluiced off carcasses and used to make processed meats such as hot dogs - contain such tissue.


To my mind, the more people know about how the food they buy is produced and start asking some bloody awkward questions to supermarkets, the big producers, and politicians the better.

Has anyone else noticed who it is that always argues against clearer and more informative food labelling? Isn't it the same people who contribute to (or are even in) political parties? Well if they can't tell us what's in their wretched 'food', or how it's produced, then I suggest we don't buy the blasted stuff, and tell them why we don't.   

Great to see this subject being aired. Sorry to go on so long...You may guess this is a real hobby horse of mine!   


Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Cruiser
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 12:12 PM

Agriculture Secretary Announces New Rules for Safety of Beef

{Quote}
Effective immediately, she said, the Agriculture Department will ban all sick, or "downer," cattle from the human food chain. She also announced bans on the use of small intestines and head and spinal tissue from older cattle for human consumption.
{End Quote}

Public pressure and science are working. Cattlemen are finally conceding. It often takes a potential disaster to force people into action; a fact of human nature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Peg
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 12:14 PM

well said Bill!
is there any subject more important than how we feed ourselves, and where our food comes from, and the relationship among living things on the planet?

I think not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: momnopp
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 07:25 PM

Here's a link to a
PDF file that is a letter to the Secretary of Agriculture at the US Dept. of Agriculture (dated February 17, 2004) containing some most disturbing information about the misinformation in this case. There's some more info at this page.

Peace,

JudyO


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 07:34 PM

"...the Agriculture Department will ban all sick, or "downer," cattle from the human food chain. She also announced bans on the use of small intestines and head and spinal tissue from older cattle for human consumption."

And how many people realised that that was the kind of stuff they were eating when the went down and had a Big Mac or one of its clones? Can you imagine the mentality it takes to need to be ordered not to serve tha to human beings? Or to animals, for that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 08:10 PM

What exactly is a custom exempt slaughterhouse? No USDA inspection? Very scary and...

Obviously, many cows are probably standing around with B.S.E. if the only cows that are tested are "downers".

Looks like we should be listening to those folks from India who do not eat beef, the folks from the middle east who won't eat pork and now the people from asia who say the poultry is also going to make us sick. Lets not forget those stinkin' farm fish and tuna with mercury.

Sort of like forced vegetarianism isnt it.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 07:18 PM

The brouhaha over BSE here in the U.S. died down quickly, with the national news agencies trotting out so-called experts to downplay the dangers posed to humans. The beef and cattle industry is such a vital part of the American economy that even if there were an epidemic of mad cow disease, I wouldn't trust the U.S. government to protect its citizens from it. Cattle lobbyists in Washington DC would have Bush's ear so fast with the offer of heftier campaign contributions or "hush money," we wouldn't even know there was a problem. Bush is already predisposed to empathize with cattle ranchers, having been spawned from that same sort of environment.


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