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Some "teachable" info on Irish Folk
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Subject: Some 'teachable' info on Irish Folk From: Rob O Date: 15 Sep 98 - 06:29 PM A teaching collegue of mine heard that I played Irish traditional music and invited me to play a few songs for her world literature classes. Like wise another collegue who reaches European and American history asked me to play some of my music when they get to the 19th century. I was curious if any one knew of some resources for some background on some of the music. We wanted to take the approach of how times effect music.
The songs I know best are: Thanks all, Rob O |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Susan of DT Date: 15 Sep 98 - 06:42 PM I don't have good overall Irish refereneces, but you can search for @Irish and look for songs with notes. PS Spring Hill Mine disaster is about a Canadian disaster, written recently by an American, not what I would call a "traditional Irish song" |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Liam's Brother Date: 15 Sep 98 - 07:01 PM Hi Rob, I guess you know that some of the songs you mention aren't traditional. "Kilkelly" and "Spring Hill," for example, are modern songs. There are a couple of songs called "Rambling Irishman". Both relate to emigration and that's a great theme. One thought you might want to think about introducing in your talk is that, although there are a lot of Irish songs about hard times, there are very few from the Great Famine. "Skibbereen" is one. People who were really starving didn't write songs about it. You could also sing a song like "Drill Ye Tarriers, Drill" which is about the work some of these 19th century immigrants had to do when they got to the U.S. Just a few ideas. Good luck. All the best. |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Zorro Date: 15 Sep 98 - 07:14 PM An observation by my son who played jazz guitar all over Europe for 4 years. I was remarking how the protest songs of Ireland are still alive after hundreds of years. It would be like you and I going into a club and hearing songs about and before the American revolution. He said that the reasons Irish songs still flourish is because the conditions that created them are still alive. Makes sense to me. |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Sep 98 - 07:14 PM Hi, Rob - you might like to take a look at the Traditional Ballad Index for background information on some of those songs. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Some From: lesley Date: 15 Sep 98 - 08:38 PM You could also try here.
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Subject: RE: Some From: Alice Date: 16 Sep 98 - 12:31 AM Another theme you could use is songs written using symbolic names referring to Ireland, since nationalism was suppressed. |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Rob O Date: 16 Sep 98 - 09:23 AM Thanks to all who've helped so far, I knew that Spring Hill was a Canadian song, but I didn't have any details on it, though I did know that many of the miners were immegrants from Ireland. Anyone have more detials on it? On Kilkelly, is that sort of ballad a good representation of "traditional" music, or was it uncommon at the turn of the century to sing such a piece about coming to America and not returning? Thanks for all the help, Rob |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Alice Date: 16 Sep 98 - 09:53 AM I would say Kilkelly is not a representation of Irish traditional music at all, as nice a ballad as it is, it still is a contemporary American written ballad. You could use it as a comparison to older music that was written by Irish immigrants. Or you could compare it to The Praities They Were Small, or Skibbereen, after a discussion of the famine and the landlord/tenant structure of Ireland and causes for immigration. You could go back to the thread on Spancil Hill and read that, sharing the background information with the class, regarding the way it was changed from a true story about real people into different versions that lost the original names. Spancil Hill is also an example of immigration to the gold fields. |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Alice Date: 16 Sep 98 - 09:57 AM For the European/American history class, you could use "Paddy's Lamentation (By the Hush)" for a Civil War related immigration song. |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Rob O Date: 16 Sep 98 - 02:06 PM From Alice's responce, I'm starting to get the feeling that my flavor of music isn't so much Traditional Irish music as Irish folk, some of which dates back to the 19th Century, others of which echo simlar themes. Such as Killkely which is a modern ballad about coming to Ammerica. Or am I missing the point here? Of course this all stemms from me having a general interest in the story of the song more than the history of the song itself, and then trying to find the histories to make a classroom connection. Good idea, but hard to implement. Thanks for the ideas so far! Rob |
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Subject: RE: Some From: lesley Date: 16 Sep 98 - 08:42 PM As a historian and potential teacher I think that part of what makes traditional music interesting is the stories behind it. Although many of the tunes discussed are not dated during the time you'd expect - that's exactly what might make them interesting to kids. You could do a "guess where and when this was done?" sort of thing. It might engage them more - and enlighten them as well. Just two cents...
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Subject: RE: Some From: Alice Date: 16 Sep 98 - 10:44 PM how old are these students? I had the impression they were not kids. |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Rob O Date: 16 Sep 98 - 11:44 PM Intended audience for presentation: 30 highschool juniors and seniors. Not exactly kids, but not quite adults either. Rob |
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Subject: RE: Some From: John in Brisbane Date: 17 Sep 98 - 01:41 AM Hi Rob, My thoughts are far from radical: - Do the material you can perform confidently. No matter how relevant the song may be, a well executed one will always command audience attention compared to a song that is performed with less flair. - Each song you mention has some potential for the lit/history students - eg. Kilcelly has themes of agrarian subsistence, colonial oppression, emigration, strong family ties, attitudes to pre-marital conception and abortion, role of the church, death and life expectancy. In addition the story as to how this song came to be written is fascinating. If this background is not in the DT, then please ask back here. - Each of the other songs you know well tell a great yarn, and I believe that there is more than enough meat in them to yield interesting references to lit/history. Regards John |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Suibhan Date: 17 Sep 98 - 02:42 AM I just looked up Kilkelly in the Database - what an interesting story! If you have anything to add, I would love to hear it. |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Date: 17 Sep 98 - 05:49 AM There was an excellent program that has been shown here in Oz a couple of times, and therefore was probably in the U.S. before (it's a U.S./Irish production). It looks at the influence of Irish music on American Music, including country, gospel, hillbilly and all that have therefore carried on from there. Features Christy Moore, Hothouse Flowers, Mary Black, and others who slip my mind. It would probably be an excellent resource in the history class (for you ) to get some background. It sprang to mind because it has Peter Jones on it playing Kilkelly and goes into the story. Tells things like did you know that a lot of cowboys were Irish, and beat out the rhythm of "Rock my soul in the bosom of Abraham" - it's a jig. Can't remeber the name however but shouldn't be too hard to find. In regards the world literature class, what was the connection between lit. and the music? I guess lilting and other puirt a beul (mouth dance music) would be interesing here but that would take a knowledge of Irish or Scottish Gaelic. Slán Benjamin Bodránaí |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Brack& Date: 17 Sep 98 - 08:12 AM Benjamin, the programme was called "Bringing It All Back Home" Regards Mick Bracken |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Alice Date: 17 Sep 98 - 10:07 AM I thought of the program 'Bringing It All Back Home', also, when I started reading this thread. 'Long Journey Home, the Irish in America' actually first came to mind, because the music in the program followed along the history of Irish immigration to the US. alice |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Alice Date: 17 Sep 98 - 10:17 AM Rob, I think John made a good point about being comfortable with performing pieces you already have prepared. I think you have the opportunity to teach the students that this type of music is not a dead tradition. Many of the descendents of those who had to leave their Irish homeland were raised with a strong awareness of their Irish name, music, and which county their ancestors came from, whether they ended up in Canada, the US, Australia, or elsewhere. Songs are an important part of the oral tradition of storytelling and history that keeps the connection alive. I think Kilkelly is a good example for the students of the continued songwriting tradition in honoring our ancestors. I think Spancil Hill would be a good one to pair it up with, since the background story can also be found here in the Mudcat threads. alice |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Susan-Marie Date: 17 Sep 98 - 12:57 PM For those with an interest in the instrumental side, I recently finished reading "Last Night's Fun" by Ciarnan Carson (I may have mangled that spelling), which provided a lot of information on the roots of tunes (as well as some hilarious stories about being a musician). |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Rob O Date: 17 Sep 98 - 06:33 PM Thanks for all the info so far! John, can you expand on some of those ideas of Kilkelly, Ireland? You mentioned pre-marital conception and abortion as topics in the song, and I think I missed their presence... or perhaps they are in lines omitted from my version of the song. I have to admit that Kilkelly is in my repertoire and I was planning on doing it whether or not it fit. At the risk of bragging (I'm so proud of this it hurts) I played it for my Physics class since the bugged me and my guitar was in my room instead of my car, but the bell rang to end class before I finished the song. All 25 kids sat transfixed till I was done. It's probably the one song I really feel like I do justice. Rob O |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Benjamin Bodhra/nai/ Date: 17 Sep 98 - 10:49 PM Mick, Thanks for that. I didn't even think that message had gotten through as I was doing it at work and the system there was playing up. BB |
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Subject: RE: Some From: John in Brisbane Date: 20 Sep 98 - 07:59 PM Rob O, Pardon this quick note but I'm a bit stretched at the moment. Will try and give you a fuller response within 24 hours.
Regards |
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Subject: RE: Some From: MacRodel Date: 20 Sep 98 - 08:11 PM "The Springhill Mine Disaster" was written by Ewan MacColl, a Scot living in London about a disaster in Nova Scotia, which hardly qualifies it as an Irish Song. I believe MacColl also wrote "Drill Ye Tarriers Drill". Cheers from Maine, Sue |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Rob O Date: 24 Sep 98 - 03:01 PM John, 24 hours eh? Rob O |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Bruce O Date: 24 Sep 98 - 03:09 PM |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Bruce O. Date: 24 Sep 98 - 03:19 PM Sorry for that last. My desktop computer died, and I'm on a laptop with unfamiliar keyboard and software.[ George Gaskin's recording of "Drill, ye tarriers, drill" made the hit parade on Dec. 5, 1891. The song was from a Broadway musical 'A Brass Monkey'. [Gaskin was originally from Belfast] |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Rob O Date: 25 Sep 98 - 02:46 PM Thanks to all who helped me prep for this mini-lesson! The programme went like this: All Around My Hat - to talk about the journy to America and to hint at some of the feelings of those left behind. Jar of Porter, Seven Drunken Nights, The Wild Rover - to talk about how common drinking was and the commanality of drinking songs. This was took us into a (brief and fairly one-sided) discussion of how happiness and drinking go together. And I mentioned how Seven Drunken Nights also takes a pot shot at the English, which was in a few songs too. Kilkelly Ireland - to show that in this genre music is a way to keep a history, and though its "modern" it stays true to the idea of telling a story, and keeps to the musical style. When the Boys Come Rolling Home - to end on a happy note and to stress that so many who came to America had happy dreams for returning to Ireland someday, though very many did not. Thanks again everyone!!!!! Rob O |
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Subject: RE: Some From: John in Brisbane Date: 28 Sep 98 - 02:43 AM Rob, my humblest apologies. Glad to hear that your performance went well.
Regards |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Barry Finn Date: 28 Sep 98 - 09:22 AM Bruce O, going a little astray here, but it's the first time I've seen a printed reference (outside of nautical) of Brass Monkey. Did the musical have a maritime theme? On shipboard a monkey would be the tringle tray with cups in it in which iron cannon balls would be stored on, aside the cannon itself, the brass monkey would be dress for special occasions or in use on the flagship. Because the brass & iron are different metals & expand & contract at different rates, in frezzing weather the brass would contract faster than the iron forcing the iron cannonballs to pop up from their resting place in the monkey, hence "frezze the balls off a brass monkey". Out of place but I thought it'd be interesting. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Date: 28 Sep 98 - 12:41 PM |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Date: 28 Sep 98 - 12:41 PM |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Date: 28 Sep 98 - 12:42 PM |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Bruce O. Date: 28 Sep 98 - 12:42 PM |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Bruce O. Date: 28 Sep 98 - 12:46 PM Barry, that's info from a book on American recorded songs, 1890-1950. I know nothing about the musical. |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Bruce O. Date: 28 Sep 98 - 12:57 PM |
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Subject: RE: Some From: Bruce O. Date: 28 Sep 98 - 01:02 PM A copy of "Drill ye tarriers, drill" in the Levy collection (box 136, item 71, see mudcat's Links) is dated 1888, but doesn't mention the broadway musical. |
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