BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less

Subject: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Whom the Bell Tolls
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 02:20 PM

The death toll for the Iranian earthquake first reported this morning is now estimated at 10,000, yet not a peep about it here. Rather people are arguing about guest postings and the most trivial and inane "holiday" items.

Can anyone here imagine a city the size of Bam being flattened and 10,000 people dying in an instant happening in Europe or North American, and it going without comment here?

The demonization of Arabs and Muslims by the Anglo American Empire seems to be working just fine. The only announcement of aid I've heard mentioned so far is from Russia.

Typical. And typically cynical.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM

Well, GUEST, WtBT, speaking from the US perspective, we can't go around drumming up sympathy for a country we're gearing up to wage war against now can we?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 02:31 PM

Bell Tolls: this IS a music site. We discuss lots of things, but this is ALSO a holiday weekend and many like myself paying a brief visit to the 'Cat haven't seen the news or read a paper today. We're doing things with the people in our lives. So give it a rest. The world comes to Mudcat at a pace that may not suit you. Meanwhile, here are at least 386 web reports on the earthquake. If you were a member of Mudcat your position to bitch about the conversation might be slightly more defensible.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 02:39 PM

Um... did you READ the Earthquake thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 02:47 PM

SRS, I think you might be feeling needlessly defensive about my comments.

CarolC, your comment is very perceptive. CNN is now saying that Germany and Russia have offered aid, although the BBC is saying that Britain, Spain, and the US have offered humanitarian aid, though I have seen no confirmation of that in US media (at CNN, Wash Post, NY Times, etc),

Interesting how politicized the "humanitarian" response seems to be from the US. Russia is a long time trading partner of both Iraq and Iran, so one would expect a quick response from them, of course. But the US news media seems to be more concerned with the spin out of the White House justifying the grounding of the Air France flights to LAX on Xmas Eve.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 02:54 PM

Did I read it, as in read the whole thing? No, I glanced at a couple of the stories but I just provided access to stories so anyone who opens this Mudcat thread can instantly access lots of information should they have the time to do so.

Guest, there are more than enough social critics, liberals, and cynics at Mudcat who can make these remarks for themselves in their own good time. You occupy no moral high ground for simply being the first to say it, and you have less credibility for not having the courage to assign yourself a name. Many of our regular contributors use a regular moniker, even if they come in most often as a guest.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:03 PM

Again SRS, your comments seem overly defensive. CarolC seems to have been the only person to have caught the drift of the thread I started here.

NicoleC, I presume you mean the California Earthquake thread, which mentions the Iran earthquake, but isn't discussing it.

It is odd. Reuters isn't reporting that the US is among those offering humanitarian assistance either--just Russian, Germany & the UN. Only the BBC is reporting that the US has offered assistance.

The point I'm making, for the benefit of those who think I'm trying to make this out to be a Mudcat thing, is that it is unimaginable that this many deaths in an earthquake in Europe or NA would be viewed as casually as this one is--that does say to me that in our societies in Europe and North American, particularly in the US, that those Arab lives are pretty meaningless to us, and that our humantitarian aid to the region is hinged upon a country's political allegiances, not on humanitarian need.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:05 PM

what srs said but if it is true that we have an elected government now that would withold aid under these circumstances, even if we were AT war for criminy's sake. . . I can hardly believe that we have reached that level. I know so many here think we're there, but I just can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:10 PM

I heard the news first thing this morning. I am waiting for more details, which at this point, seem a bit sketchy.

GUEST,wtbt, you are very quick to condemn. Rough Christmas?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:13 PM

Of course, ANON.GUEST must be aware that all US government offices are closed today...and that Iranians aren't Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Peace
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:15 PM

GUEST: What you say is true to an extent. However, I doubt the earthquake in California is receiving much press in the Arab world, either. Don't presume that a lack of reporting translates to an anti-Arab bias in the USA. The news networks do what they do, and the American people eat what's served to them, just like the rest of us. And that includes you, too. All the best for the New Year. BM

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Whom the Bell Tolls
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:16 PM

Don, since you seem to be addressing me--every Christmas is rough, I'm Jewish.

Considering that most the world has now responded with promises of aid to the Iran earthquake crisis, and the US hasn't, I don't think I'm too quick to condemn at all--either Mudcat or the Bush administration. For illustration of my point, see the California earthquake thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:21 PM

Good god--the Arab world isn't paying enough attention to the California earthquake compared to the Iran earthquake???

What is the matter with you people? Was an ancient city of 200,000 inhabitants flattened in California and 15,000-20,000 people killed? Even suggesting such comparisons is obscene.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Whom the Bell Tolls
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:36 PM

From the NY Times article updated at 2:47 PM Eastern, at the end of the article:

"A spokesman for President Bush said the United States would offer humanitarian assistance."

That's it.

By contrast, the BBC reported 5 hours ago that seven workers from the International Rescue Corps, based in Grangemouth, were already on their way to the city of Bam.

I find it hard to believe that the President couldn't be reached for comment, when he was en route to the ranch on Air Force One with the entire White House press corps.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:48 PM

Guest - you compared the tragedy in Iran with the grounding of a couple of airplanes. Who was being "obscene"?

The last time I looked the story was the lead on all the major networks. Considering that this is a typical response to ANY non-US disaster I don't think it ignored at all.   

This was a 6.5 earthquake and the real tragedy is how poorly prepared the region is. A similar size earthquake hit near Panama a week ago with few deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:51 PM

I, too, have been looking for some response from the Bush administration, but so far I have waited in vain. I will be interested in what they have to say, if anything. Were I president, I would have made an immediate offer of whatever assistance they might require, but then the Bush administration may have a different agenda.

However, GUEST,wtbt, I still think you are quick to condemn, especially when you seem to be taking the folks here at Mudcat to task for not responding in a manner you seem to feel is appropriate. You would be hard pressed to find a bunch more concerned with the welfare and safety of their fellow humans that you find here.

Also, I am essentially a heathen leaning toward druidism in the midst of a world that is in the process of being destroyed by those who style themselves as Christians, Jews, or Muslims, and who seem to have no real knowledge of the actual principles upon which their respective religions are based. And you think you've got it rough!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:56 PM

While it is still a horific tragedy, I am glad to hear the reports have been signficantly lowered to beween 5 and 6 thousand dead. Still a horrible event and our prayers are with the people of Iran.

It is also a tragedy that the major historic and cultural heritage of this ancient city was damaged or destroyed. What a horror.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 04:20 PM

Now we're hearing more than 20,000 dead and 50,000 injured in a city of 200,000. It's always hard to tell numbers this soon; hopefully they are much, much lower, but in a 2,000 year old city many of the buildings are going to be unstable.

The US response, I agree, has been pathetic. Saudi Arabia and Egypt are probably the best prepared to offer immediate local assistance, but in this kind of major disaster offers of help should be immediate and unstinting. I have no doubts that the US will send significant amounts of help -- we always do -- but the lag in time is disconcerting and sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 04:20 PM

Of course it is a horrific thing...so is all the rest of the Front Page International news.....I just real tired of only seeing Bad Stuff on the front page...and, not much I personally can do, except try to Un elect an unelected President....

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 04:21 PM

Ron, To nights BBC News puts the deaths at an estimated 20,000, a heart-breaking sight seeing those poor victims on TV.
How lucky we are to live in a country that has never experienced such devestation. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 04:29 PM

I guess we won't know the actual numbers for awhile.   AP has reported the figure at 5 to 6 based on a statement from the Islamic Republic News Agency in Iran.

As for the U.S. response, wy are we being accused of "dragging our feet"?   Our response has been the same as other countries.   Don't forget that the U.S. and Iran have not had diplomatic ties since 1979. We can't just start sending planes over with aid. It will probably be filtered through another country or an organization like the Red Cross.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 04:40 PM

I've been keeping an eye on the news most of the day, Ron, and while the UN, EU and other countries are busy sending doctors, medicine, sniffer dogs, warm clothing, setting up hospitals and offering money, the US response is:

"The State Department was expected to spell out details of an aid package shortly, a U.S. official said." (Reuters, 3:24pm EST)

Not exactly a warm response from the Bush administration. Yes, we have no diplomatic relations with Iran, but this is not diplomacy we're talking about, it's human kindness.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 04:53 PM

I hear you Nicole, but it isn't as easy as you make it seem.

While I detest the fact that this man sits in the White House, I do think it should be noted that it is a holiday here in the U.S.   If you check Reuters you will also find this story - Reuters
- where Bush says "I extend my condolences to all those touched by this tragedy," Bush said in a statement issued from his ranch. "The thoughts of all Americans are with the victims and their families at this time, and we stand ready to help the people of Iran".   Bush issued the statement from his Texas ranch.

We can all sit back and question, and we should. We should also take facts into consideration.   By the way, I'm not hearing any definitive contributions from other countries.   I'm not saying it hasn't been said, but the only reports I see mention U.N. and Red Cross & Red Crescent help. What is everyone else doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 04:55 PM

I was unclear in part of my statement.   I wanted to say that while I detest the fact that Bush is sitting in the White House, I do want to give him benefit of the doubt since it is a holiday here in the U.S. and an effort of this size is not a simple task.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 04:58 PM

Someone tell my boss or the post office it's a holiday. What are we all doing at work, then? Even the banks are open.

From the same story:

"Russia's Emergencies Ministry, highly skilled in reacting to frequent natural and man-made disasters, has offered rapid-response units of doctors, paramedics and sniffer dog handlers to help find people buried under rubble.

"In accordance with an order from the head of state Emergencies Ministry specialists are preparing to fly to Iran to give help to the injured," said a statement from President Vladimir Putin's press service after a meeting with Emergencies Minister Sergei Shoigu.
Itar-Tass news agency quoted the Emergencies Ministry as saying planes would leave for Iran on Saturday with 100 experts for searching collapsed buildings, 10 doctors and search dogs."

Italy was sending a C-130 military transport plane with a sniffer dog unit, firefighters and search teams later on Friday, the civil protection department said.

...France was sending a field hospital and the Czech Republic, one of the 10 countries entering the bloc next year, had also offered aid.

Germany was flying in medical supplies, 500 blankets, 1,500 winter coats, clothing and other emergency shelter equipment, officials said. Berlin said it was making 500,000 euros available in emergency aid.

Britain, Poland, Jordan, Finland and Turkey, which has intensive experience in dealing with quake disasters, were sending rescuers and equipment including thermal imaging cameras to locate survivors under rubble.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 05:06 PM

Sorry Nicole. I meant that Bush was on a holiday at his ranch.   I don't know about you, but I do know that many companies are off today as well.

I only hope the U.S. will provide similar services.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 05:19 PM

When is Bush NOT on holiday at his ranch? :}

The US *will* send help. Even if the government is stingy, you can bet individuals and small organizations won't be. When I see the kind of generosity that my neighbors can have when there's a tragedy, it reminds me that average Americans really are a good bunch of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 05:50 PM

Well put Nicole, on both counts! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:02 PM

Looking at the seismic risk map of Iran, Bam does not appear to be in one of the worst areas, and is very close to low risk parts of the country. It would probably have had a low priority in developing earthquake proof structures compared with other major areas of settlement in very dangerous areas. That it had 2000 year old structures still standing suggests that it has not known any bad quakes in that time, and so may not have developed a safe vernacular architecture. The quake happened while many were still in bed, which will have magnified the death toll considerably, regardless of preparedness.

The BBC news had a really stupid cliche from the reporter - "wandering as if in shock" - as if?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:15 PM

I would ask for security for any US personnel sent to the region. These are the same people who chant Death to The USA and call you The Great Satan. I can fully understand why Bush is loath to send anyone. Especially since Iran broke international law by imprisoning US citizens and diplomatic staff without trial a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:30 PM

GUEST, 26 Dec 03 - 06:15 PM;

You are probably unaware that Iran had a fledgeling democracy which was crushed by the US (CIA), which then installed the Shah, who was a despot of the same school as Saddam Hussien (sp?). It is not without some justification that the Iranians aren't overly fond of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:36 PM

Iranians aren't Arabs? What are they then?

And where was Allah when all this was happening? It's sad what happened to innocent people. Innocent people who still hate our American guts.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:42 PM

Iranians are predominantly Persian, with a good bit of Azeri population thrown in. Iran is only about 3% Arab.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:47 PM

How do you tell the difference between an Azeri and an Arab?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:51 PM

How do you tell the difference between a Hungarian and a Englishman?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:58 PM

Carol C, yes i'm aware of a lot of the history, much more than you would give me credit for. The fact remains, would you volunteer to go to a country where you are hated, without some sort of security agreement with the locals? You can get a lot of people killed with that kind of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 07:13 PM

If you imagine the inhabitants of Iran are Arabs, I would guess you are going to have extreme difficulty understanding the politics of the region over the next year or two. There must be books or newspaper articles in America on this sort of thing, where the basics can be looked up.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 07:25 PM

Arabs come from countries where the language and the culture is Arabic, and Iran is not one of these countries.

Mostly Arabs are Muslim, but often enough they are Christian. (One in 20 Iraqis). Most Muslims around the world are not Arabs, though the Muslim holy book, the Koran, is written in Arabic.

None of which is particularly significant in the face of a natural disaster that killed something an estimated 20,000 plus people. But getting it right is at least a symbolic act of respect, and getting it wrong comes across as the reverse.

It is possible to hope that by seizing the opportunity in this situation to provide generous help, without any kind of strings or conditions or hidden agenda, we can make a practical gesture of shared humanity that could undo some of the harm that has been done in our names in recent times.

And "our" there means everyone, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and all the rest of us. Some things are too important to let those kind of disagreements get in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM

Maybe, GUEST 26 Dec 03 - 0658 PM. Then again, maybe not. At any rate, the US will most probably be sending people to Iran some time in the next year or two or three, only those people won't be there to help earthquake victims. Quite likely, when the US does send its people (troops) in, more innocent Iranians (non-combatants) will be killed than were killed in today's earthquake.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Call Me Ishmael
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 01:48 PM

What is it about most Mudcatters, indeed most Americans, that they assume that everyone in the Middle East is Arab and Muslim? artbrooks and McGrath of Harlow seem to be the only Mudcatters who have ever read a newspaper.

One would have thought that given the obsession that Americans have had with Iran for decades now, that they'd have known that Iran was not an Arab nation. It wasn't that long ago that American puppet Saadam Hussein waged his proxy war of Iraqi Arabs against the Iranian Persians.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 02:44 PM

All of those magnifcent volunteers that are in Iran are not in the least concerned about the faith of those poor unfortunates,they are giving up their time to help, they do this whenever, and wherever a disaster takes place.
No praise is too high for these people. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 02:47 PM

I judge from the general tone of the posts that GUEST,Whom the Bell Tolls and GUEST,Call Me Ishmael are the same person. Once again, quick to condemn out of hand with what appears to be a minimum of knowledge about the people being condemned.

I'm with McGrath on this. He nailed it very precisely.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 02:48 PM

It is possible to hope that by seizing the opportunity in this situation to provide generous help, without any kind of strings or conditions or hidden agenda, we can make a practical gesture of shared humanity that could undo some of the harm that has been done in our names in recent times. I agree with you, of course, McGrath, but there really isn't much hope of that. In this morning's account: "We welcome assistance from all countries except Israel," Alavi said. This is a sad old world.


"The Bush administration is sending 150,000 pounds of medical supplies to Iran in a military airlift, government officials said Saturday. The administration is also dispatching teams of about 200 search-and-rescue and medical experts from Fairfax County, Virginia, Los Angeles and Boston, the officials said."

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Call Me Ishmael
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 02:56 PM

Don Firth, you are completly incorrect. My criticism was directed at all who can't tell the difference between an Arab and a Persian, and that includes the idiot Whom the Bell Tolls that started this thread.

For all I know, you Don Firth, and Whom the Bell Tolls are one and the same person, that you're one of the Mudcatters who delete their cookies to make Guest postings. As they say in the schoolyard, "it takes one to know one."

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 03:34 PM

I wish to take issue with GUEST, December 26, 3:21 pm.

Comparing the California earthquakes with the disaster in Iran is not obscene, because the tragedy of the events were not being compared. It gives no pleasure to anyone to learn that thousands of people have died in an earthquake. However, Guest"FWTBT" started this thread by stating that the US would not help or suggesting that the US was going to ignore the situation. He is of course full a shit. I am trying to see things from his point of view, but I can't stick my head that far up my ass.

The US has and continues to provide disaster relief around the world. It may not be to the extent that FWTBT would like or as quickly as FWTBT would like, but it will occur. What kind of country would say, "I'll take help from anyone but Israel?" The friggin' Iranian government has taken the opportunity to turn a disaster into a political statement. Tell me the country isn't run by assholes.

FWTBT may figure it's a simple thing to respond to disaster. I meet people like him/her at fires and vehicle collisions. They want to tell us how to do the job, and generally they don't have any idea what the f##k they're talking about.

It is very easy to sit in front of a CNN broadcast and criticize the players. It is a far different thing to remove a shattered body from a smashed vehicle, or take a father in your arms to comfort him when he finally realizes he won't see his daughter alive again.

I dislike anonymous GUESTs who criticize regulars on the Mudcat. This site has lots of people who have been there and done that. Guest whomever: write when you get back from Iran, and tell us what a hero you were. Until then, GFY.

I apologize to the regulars here. I am truly pissed off.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: mg
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 03:51 PM

I read somewhere today the US was sending aid. We usually do. I wish we had more robotic devices. I think I read that Mercy Corps or was it NW Medical Teams were going.   Somewhere on the Drudge Report I read where to send donations. My family's collective belated Christmas present will go there.

I wish we had agencies that would send over things like blankets and clothes we would collect. They always want money instead..I understand the logistics and their preference..but at least for some time after the disaster those items will be in great demand and could spare money for food and medicine...we all have (many.) basements full of stuff we are saving for just such a purpose. For poorer countries, we should be shipping sterilized (don't ask me how..sunshine works well..)..sanitized anyway..stuff there on a continual basis for them to distribute and/or stockpile against such disasters....

Also, we should find people in very bad circumstances..say the Palestinians in Gaza...train those forlorn young men and women..screening them first...train them especially as international disaster workers.....some with medical knowledge and some with knowledge and equipment to pull people out of rubble..train them along with dogs..probably not room for dogs in the Gaza strip..but somewhere....and be ready to mobilize them in the blink of an eye...

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 04:03 PM

Re, thread title. Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less. A whole lot less than what? Sorry, Guest, For whom the bell tolls, what are you talking about? Less than yours? Mine? The Mudcats? C'mon. If you are going to try and troll at least start us off with a half decent argument;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 04:12 PM

GUEST,Ishmael (and GUEST,Bells, if indeed you might actually be two different people, although I am not convinced), for the record, ever since I first posted on Mudcat in 1999 I have used my own name, and have never posted as "GUEST." I am now and have always been perfectly willing to take either credit or blame for whatever I post. I, for one, don't hide behind anonymity. Ever.

It never even occurred to me to erase my cookie so I could post anonymously. But you seem to have figured that one out. Interesting.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 04:20 PM

Dear Regulars: I mean the apology above. I happen to know that so many of you have 'been there and done that', and while it is not my prerogative to speak on anyone else's behalf, I did. You may not share my views, so maybe I should just speak for myself. Please consider that I have done so.

GUEST FWTBT: GFY. That's a personal suggestion from me to you.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 04:30 PM

I agree with you, of course, McGrath, but there really isn't much hope of that. In this morning's account: "We welcome assistance from all countries except Israel," Alavi said.

I can't see why that remark made by the mayor should get in the way of everyone who can sending whatever aid they can to the survivors of this disaster. People say that kind of thing at times like this, especially politicians, more especially when there's bad blood between neighbours.

The point I was making is that nobody should try to make political capital out of any help they are sending, and that happens. Big signs on the bags of flour making some kind of propaganda point, that kind of stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 04:31 PM

The "silly season" is indeed here again, when outsiders who sometimes give themselves names, but mostly don't, start mixing it up by trolling at Mudcat. In the course of a guest-generated conversation one or two people ask questions about things they don't know (Persian vs Arab is a good question and something people need to know) and these outsiders assume (accent on "ass") that all Mudcatters don't know these things and offer verbal flagellation to anyone who wades into the thread.

Harping on what other people do or don't know, think, or talk about from a position of anonymity is classic troll behavior. Guest "Ishmael" makes pronouncements and his/her "it takes one to know one" nonsense is straight off the schoolyard. Guest Bell Tolls assumes eurocentric and US-centric bias must motivate all converstations. They demean the very conversation they were trying to start and they clearly don't understand Mudcat.

Okay, Bell Tolls, once again you can come in and say I must be "overly defensive" when in fact I'm just sticking you where it hurts and that's your childish response. If you can't take the heat, don't start the thread.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 04:49 PM

We seem to be following the Humanitarian efforts of the rest of the world... a step behind... to gather 'spin potential'... but it definately bothers me that our gov is so opportunistic that it sees only war as a means of peace... a no brainer...

It just doesn't seem to be a priority to be 100 percent confident in the people themselves... only what use can be made of us...

Where are the 'great peace efforts' nowadays? ...or the faith in common people's efforts... like um... Christ was all about?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 04:59 PM

Worrying about hurt feelings doesn't really seem too appropriate in the face of something like this disaster. Estimates now are as high as 50,000 dead.

It ought to be absolute top priority.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: NicoleC
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 05:28 PM

Mary,

Generally, it is more help and easier to purchase food, blankets, etc. locally whenever feasible. These kinds of things are not only humanitarian disasters, they are also economic disasters. Buying locally can help. Also, many organizations simply do not have the logistical capability to box up and ship heavy items like canned food and bulky items like blankets -- so money rerouted to organizations who can, like the Red Cross (Red Crescent in Muslim countries). Items that are often needed the most and are most expensive -- like water purification -- aren't something the average person can in sufficient quantities to be much use.

I can understand the urge to donate something tangible, though. During the Northridge quake I drive around until I found a refugee camp and set up a BBQ, even though I knew that there were probably more urgent needs.

FWIW, I can understand the Iranian comment about Israel when it's taken in context. (It was one local official that made the comment, not an offical of the Iranian goverment, BTW.) Yesterday Israel said they weren't sure if they would help, which was certainly an insult compared to just keeping their mouth shut. It's too bad that both sides couldn't set aside their political differences for the duration -- neither attitude is in keeping with Islamic or Judaic principles.

Yep, Kevin's comment nailed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 06:11 PM

The reason I wrote in this thread about Arabs and Iran(I try to avoid Iraq/Bush topics) is obvious really. If people wish to discuss this sort of thing(I mean the Iraq war, this thread was not started about earthquakes, we all know what is being talked about), I wish they would do a little basic minimal reseach and try a little thought. I don't mind whether they come form the left, as in this case, or the right, as in others. Have a little respect for huge human problems, which are mainly in Iraq and Iran, at the moment, and not in Britain or America.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 09:02 PM

Well, why are the huge human problemsm mainly in Iraq and Iran? Could it be these countries are so loaded with hate? I don't know, but I'm glad I don't live in these piss poor places. And why aren't we spending the money we are giving to Iran on the homeless and downtrodden here?

People who rip others because they use there real names on forums like these always end up self serving their own egos. Just because someone leaves their real name really means very little in this virtual world. There is reality and there is the Internet. I am doing just fine keeping these two things separate.

As far as telling the difference between a Hungarian and an Englishman, that's easy as soon as they open their mouth. An Azeri and an Arab is a different story. Is it the color of the towel or something? I wish I could have got a more serious answer from Nicole C., but she obviously doesn't know except to give a dumb answer like she did.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 09:21 PM

it the color of the towel or something?

Your first question was taken seriously. Do you want to be spoon-fed this information? Your rebuttal is a cry for an obvious stereotype when you should avoid those and actually look at the answer you were given.

Azeri language.

Arabic language.

Like she said, as soon as they open their mouths is when you tell the difference. But of course, if you only speak English, then that real obvious distinction is lost on you, and you ask for a visual clue. While facing the English or the Hungarian, you can sort it out because one is English and one is Other, Them, not-Us, not-English. So whose fault is it that you don't understand the original answer as it was given? It was a legitimate answer. I've offered a couple of web sites so you can do the research and figure it out for yourself, Guest Martin Gibson.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 11:39 PM

Don't most Iranians (formerly known as Persians) speak Farsi?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:23 AM

Good observation, Art. Here is a resource on the Farsi language.

I am guessing that the answer is that several languages are spoken by large percentages of the population. Iran, like many other "nations" in that part of the world, were actually cobbled together by various victors in World War I. The geographic boundaries they selected had little to do with the desires of the countries that were crammed together in these colonial arrangements.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:24 AM

Sorry, Sage, got better things to do. The towels need to be washed.

Do you think the Shah of Iran gave a shit?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:35 AM

There are many Arabs living in southern and southwestern Iran. In the Kerman province where the earthquake occurred, many of them are a discriminated against minority of tribes and clans. That discrimination was exacerbated by the Pahlavi regime, which repressed the non-Fars ethnic groups such as the Arabs, Baruchi, et al with the help of the squeeze play between the Russians and the British which preceded the CIA/Pahlavi regime.

The southern region of Iran has a long, complex Arab history--not just a Muslim one. Or Fars. THAT is what I meant when I said the Arab lives would be worth a whole lot less in this disaster.

Typical that paranoid members make guests they disagree with the focus, rather than deal with the pathetic, inhumane response by the US government.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:48 AM

Was that you again WTBT? What brucie said (with bells & whistles as far as I'm concerned) still applies. My New Year's resolution shall be to try to ignore trolling Guests.

More importantly may the gods grant that the death toll comes in much lower, rather than much higher, given the tenfold difference in some of the estimates! :(

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Hrothgar
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 05:10 AM

Kevin,

Just a little thread creep - was the Koran originally written in Arabic? My expectation would be Farsi.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 08:06 AM

Since Mohammed was an Arab, and he wrote down the Koran, it was written in Arabic.

Farsi is a completely different language, since it's one of the Indo-European languages in some ways it's closer to English than to Arabic, which is one of the Semitic family of languages. However it is normally written in Arabic Script and there's been a lot of borrowing of words. It's spoken also in parts Afghanistan.

However the suggestion that "Iran, like many other 'nations' in that part of the world, were actually cobbled together by various victors in World War I" is rubbish. Persia as it used to be called, is one of the most ancient nations in the world, far older than the states of Europe. As with many countries the borders has changed from time to time and there are ethnic minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 09:06 AM

Old Arabic or Classical Arabic is the original language of the Qur'an (Koran). The dialect of the tribe of Koreish, to which Mohammed belonged, is the one that has become the basis of pure Arabic. Old Arabic poems are in the same dialect as that of the Koran, spoken by the Bedouin tribes of the era. It was written in Kufic Script, named after the city of Kufa. Kufic script could be known as the first and earliest calligraphy, used in writing many copies of Koran, which are still found here and there.

Persian, also known as Farsi, is the most widely spoken member of the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranian languages, a subfamily of the Indo-European languages. It is the language of Iran (formerly Persia) and is also widely spoken in Afghanistan and Pakistan (where it is called Dari) and is spoken in an archaic form, in Tajikistan and the Pamir Mountain region.

Dari and Farsi have developed differently differ but speakers can understand each other. (A bit like Scottish and English)

Old Persian died out before the advent of Islam. It is derived from Sanskrit. This shows how old the language (and the Persian empire) are.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 09:43 AM

Kevin, it isn't "rubbish." Look at your world history. No one is making any claims regarding the ancient nature of Persia, simply the way the British were so famous for taking disparate groups and cramming them together as one modern nation based on lines they and their war-time pals agreed to. It's all over the continent of Africa and the Indian sub-continent, the nations created by European colonizers. (The ones that didn't take independence into their own hands!)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 10:06 AM

From a historical perspective, Iran/Persia was not one of the countries created by the British (or the Entante' powers, if you prefer) after WW-I. Its territory, in basically its present form, had been divided into British and Russian spheres of influence in the late 19th century. The Russian Revolution removed both the Tsar and his government's interest in the area, and it came under British control, which gradually decreased after the war, although they retained control of Iran's oil. Except for a couple of brief flirtations with something approching democracy (from 1905 to 1907 and 1944 to 1953), the country has been under authoritarian rule, either by the Safavid, Qajar or Pahlavi dynasties or a conservative religious government, since Tamerlaine destroyed what was left of the old Persian Empire in the 14th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 10:25 AM

Persia or Iran is a much older nation than "Britain", essentially within its modern borders.

The penchant that colonisers, notably the British, had for arbitrarily setting up new countries within artificial borders is undeniable, but it doesn't apply in this particular case. Persia hadn't formed part of the Ottoman Empire, so wasn't up for grabs in the same way as the provinces that became Iraq in the Versailles esettlement after the Great War.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 11:20 AM

But Iraq, the Frankensteinian nation next door, contains populations from at least three separate major groups, including many who consider themselves affiliated with the population in Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 11:36 AM

"...the frankensteinian nation next door..." Wow! SRS, that is a keeper! Thanks, ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Geno
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 11:46 AM

"As far as telling the difference between a Hungarian and an Englishman, that's easy as soon as they open their mouth. An Azeri and an Arab is a different story. Is it the color of the towel or something?" (Martin Gibson, 27/12/03)

Does this qualify as a racist posting and, if so, should it be deleted?
Should also be noted that if the 20,000 estimate for casualties is correct, that's about five times as many as 9/11. Makes you think, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:15 PM

I see Lepus Rex is at it again...

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:21 PM

Yes, it should be considered a racist comment, because it is.

Yes, it was the very scale of the devastation--the destruction of almost an entire city of 80,000, and it's surrounding population of another 100,000+ (whose dead and wounded have yet to be counted), that set the sharp contrast for me when I started the thread. It was immediately apparent from the pictures of a flattened city that looked like an atomic bomb had been detonated over it, that this would be one of the most devastating disasters in recent memory.

I also noted while watching the coverage on US television, that the US mainstream media have consistently and grossly underreported the casualty numbers, the level of devastation, the humanitarian response from the international community (and despite the US aid being funneled through the UN for the obvious reasons), and actually given the story very little coverage. Imagine how different the coverage would be if the epicenter of the earthquake had been in Iraq.

And regardless of the humanitarian aid (most of it coming from NGOs) being funneled through the UN from the US, the US government response has been mostly stone cold silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 12:52 PM

BTW, ABC News is reporting that as of Sunday morning, 45 planes have landed in Iran carrying relief workers and supplies. Of them, 4 were American.

The Iranian (or Axis of Evil, if you prefer) response, according to one of the US Air Force crew members on the first US plane to land in Iran in a decade:

"The reception was beyond expectations," said U.S. Air Force Master Sgt. Jeff Bohn, who was on the first American transport plane to reach Kerman. "The warmth that the Iranian military and civil aviation workers gave us was truly incredible."

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 01:18 PM

I don't think it's really a racist statement.

Who would you rather have driving your taxi might be considered, though.

Guest, Geno:

No, it makes me think that's a totally foolish thing to say. The earthquake was not a form of terrorism like 9/11. Maybe it was an act of Allah. Comparing 9/11 to an eathquake that killed 100,000 is ridiculous and pretty lame.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 01:51 PM

Comparing the reaction of people to the scale of death and suffering involved is not ridiculous. That says rather a lot about what they think is important.

I think there's a case to be made for leaving racist statements to stay there sometimes, rather than cleaning up the record.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 02:02 PM

From today's Wash Post:

"U.S. officials told the Associated Press yesterday that the U.S. relief effort does not imply any change in policy toward Iran, which the Bush administration has labeled a part of "the axis of evil" for its support of terrorism and alleged secret efforts to develop a nuclear weapons program.

"There is a humanitarian catastrophe in Iran, and our only mission is to alleviate the human suffering associated with yesterday's earthquake," State Department spokesman Lou Fintor said. "These efforts will not alter the tone or intensity of our dialogue with the Iranians on other matters of grave concern."

Ed note from me: "...our dialogue with the Iranians" ????? What dialogue with the Iranians?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 08:24 PM

Comparing terrorism to acts of nature is ridiculous. True, either way there is devastation and lives to mourn, but murder from hate is in a class by itself. That's why comparing it is kind of looney.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 09:26 PM

In the ten years I have been involved with emergency rescue response, I do not know of a single rescuer who has ever given the least consideration to the nationality, ethnic background, religion, language, politics, gender or colour of the person caught in the situation, be that fire, MVC, high angle rescue, confined space rescue, building collapse or 'you name it'. I have seen people go into seriously dangerous circumstances just because it is what they do. They do not perceive themselves to be heroes any more than an avalanche dog perceives itself to be doing something out of the ordinary. Putting any kind of political spin on the Iran catastrophe is far beyond my ability to comprehend. To the victims, it must seem infinitely beyond understanding. Why don't we forget this crap thread, because that's what it is. As people, we are much better than that. This is my last visit to "Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less." A life is a life, and that's as philosophical as I can get about it. Regardless of where that life is.

I hope all you 'catters have a great New Year.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 11:50 PM

As people, we are much better than that.

Our brave rescuers are certainly much better than that. But our governments and most of our politicians are not. (At least those in the US and many other countries. Maybe not so much in Canada.) They are willing to make decisions that cause the loss of innocent lives for the purpose of accumulating more money and more power. It's unfortunate but it's also true.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 03:42 AM

Brucie, Good on you. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 10:37 AM

Politics makes anything selective, including rescue missions. I've not had time to research it yet, but I hope to do some surfing this week to see what the US response was to the 1990 Iranian earthquake when 50,000 people were killed. I think we all know whose watch that happened on.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab Lives Worth A Whole Lot Less
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 12:20 PM

To be fair I think that in 1990 the Iranian government wasn't too keen on asking for outside help, especially from the USA . (And to put that refusal in context, it was less than two years after the end of the war which had started with Iraq invading Iran, and which had ended shortly after the US warship Vincennes shot down a Iranian civilian airliner and killed 290 people.)