Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis

Subject: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: johnross
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 08:17 PM

The Queen's New Years honours List has been announced. The OBE list includes this entry:

Robert James Copper. Author and Performer. For services to Folk Music. (Peacehaven, East Sussex)

==
Richly deserved and about damn time.

Congratulations all around.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 08:38 PM

Nice to see Honours List reflecting true merit on a broader scale than is usual.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 09:24 PM

When Nanne Kalma in the Netherlands gets a Knighthood for effectively writing new sea songs and shanties, an OBE for Bob Copper is not only the least that his country owes him - it's pitifully little.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Alio
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 05:42 AM

But at least it IS recognition - I think it's wonderful!

Ali

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 05:56 AM

Good for Bob. A lovely man with a wide appreciation of ALL good music,
NOT just Traditional Folk.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 06:15 AM

You're right, Alio - at least he was recognised! I am usually cynical about most of the names in the honours lists, but now and then they get a right one. This is such a case, Bob deserves it.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 06:24 AM

I think he only got an MBE, not an OBE.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 06:39 AM

It's about time, beautiful singer and beautiful man.
eric

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 08:23 AM

I was yet again missed out so couldn't refuse! Herself was told when she went on strike (civil service union)many years ago,that it would go on her record and she'd never get an honour! We were gutted (NOT!).

Still, better Bob than some FO jobsworth.

RtS (NBG)
[Remember the old saying:
MBE = My bloody efforts
OBE = Other bugger's efforts
CMG = Call me God
KCMG= Kindly call me God
GCMG= God Calls me God
KMCG= Kevin McGrath (of Harlow)]

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 09:36 AM

Well deserved I might add. Congratulations Bob.
John

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 09:55 AM

Definitely MBE, should have been OBE.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: karen k
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 10:17 AM

How wonderful. Much deserved, Bob. You truely are an English national treasure. Congratulations! America salutes you!

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: GUEST,ooh-aah
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 07:27 PM

Many congratulations to Bob - should have happened long ago, and be an OBE for sure.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 08:09 PM

Once again, my name has been left off the Honours List.

It's just too, too unfair!

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: vectis
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 08:14 PM

Too bloody little for the years he's put in and decades overdue.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: MairSea
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 09:10 PM

Agreed and Congratulations - MAybe next tiem Sir Bob of the Folk World??

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 07:41 AM

I agree - well deserved and long overdue. But has anybody else noticed that Barry Care also got an MBE for services to the community in Moulton?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 07:59 AM

In Bob Copper's case an MBE (the lowest award there is) is an insult. What a pity he couldn't bring himself to refuse it, as we now know so many others have done when offered more senior honours. The whole system is tainted and flawed (Bernie Ecclestone, a self-style spiv, was offered - and refused - a knighthood in the year he bunged the governing Labour Party £1 million). I'm amazed that anyone still takes it seriously.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 08:02 AM

And a brief radio spot along with other 'ordinary' recipients like lollipop crossing persons. But does this compensate for the lack of Folk Award nominations for Simon Care and all he has done for English music? I don't think so...

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 11:37 AM

Hooray and congratulations. But I agree - it is too little, too late, and more appropriate honours outside the Honours List might still be found for Bob. Most of all, I wish him a good year and a long and happy life still in front of him!

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Hollowfox
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 12:50 PM

Congratulations from a USA admirer! It's so nice to start the new year off with a bit of good news.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 01:18 PM

does anyone know exactly who chooses the list? Is it just mostly a political thing?

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 01:25 PM

Oh Dear Fionn - Missed out again did you !

What a pity that amongst the well desreved congratulations to Bob Copper, you have to try and poison the matter.

Still, one thing I think most 'Catters will agree on, your sour grapes will not rain on Bob Coppers parade.

Never mind you can always hope for an honour under Michael Howard - "For Services to the Conservative Party, and Police Informant"

Gareth

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 06:50 PM

Sorry, you'll have to explain that last point, Gareth. Or is it in the category of the more idiotic remarks you make that you never seem able to substantiate? Such as that I was in some way connected with Buckingham Labour Party; and that I had some role in the downfall of an MP in some other constituency, with which I've never had any connection?

Still, your faith in the honours system is heartening to behold. But why then are those "new" Labourites you idolise intent on reforming it?

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 07:12 PM

I am Not going to polute the congratulations. Due to Bob Copper by resorting to your level.

But these allegations are substative, and will be repeated.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 07:44 PM

Gareth, I'm not sure it's fair to press on with allegations, substantive or otherwise, if they have been refuted, and you can't justify or explain them in any way. But assuming such a consideration doesn't concern you, I expect that unfounded smears will cut no ice in this community, no matter how often they are repeated.

A couple of catters have urged me to allow you a fool's pardon, and any reading of the threads will show that I do in fact ignore much of your drivel. But when you try to generate tittle-tattle out of nothing but your own imagination, as in the last point of your previous post, and in other imbecile allegations you've made, it seems reasonable to wonder what you're getting at.

If you're stuck for words again, as when I have challenged you in other threads, I suppose I'll just have to revert to the "fool's pardon" approach.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:12 PM

Just an afterthought, Gareth, since I was revisiting the thread anyway, to check you were still hiding under the bedclothes. Why would a besotted admirer of the new Labour establishment put any kind of question-mark against supporting our police?

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Hawker
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:48 PM

I couldn't give a shit about all the politics and I bet neither could Bob, having just read his books, I say it is well deserved and long overdue, honours to people such as these surpass all the skulduggery some of you prefer to imply. I think he deserved this award if not more, and am overjoyed for him.
Lucy

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 10:27 PM

I have no idea what Gareth and Peter are on about. It looks like a private conversation that has no place here. Whatever we may think of the honours system in general, there are times when it recognises people who really deserve recognition; this is one of those times. Congratulations to Bob. Now it's time to start lobbying for a knighthood (I'm perfectly serious about that).

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Dave Swan
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 11:43 PM

Congrats, all best wishes, and a very Happy New Year to Bob.

Singing with you remains our high point as a group. We will be onstage at the Freight(the scene of the crime)tomorrow night. We'll think of you.

Looking forward to your next meeting, song and beer.

Warmest regards,

Doug Dave and Tom

the boys of Oak Ash & Thorn

p.s. PJ misses playing air guitar with you

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 11:06 AM

Well, for my own part I was making the point that an MBE is a demeaningly minor honour, made within a system that has itself been demeaned, to a point where we would be better off without it. Gareth was obviously entitled to take issue with that, but as he also took the opportunity to re-peddle some allegations of his own invention, I think I was entitled to deal with them.

Even allowing that some form of public recognition for Bob Copper was richly deserved, I'm not sure he was more deserving than (say) Jim Lloyd or Fred Jordan. As honours are subjective decisions, they will be open to question for as long as we all have opinions. The territory has been further clouded by recent disclosure that the honours are often refused. I guess we can all see that the notion of Billy Bragg accepting a knighthood to become Sir William, or of Ewan McColl accepting Membership of the British Empire, is faintly risible.

In short, it would be disappopinting if folkies were lured into seeing value in a devalued process simply because that process has - for once - honoured a folksinging luminary.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Abby Sale
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 01:46 PM

I tend to agree with Malcolm but also Peter K here. Go over to BBC News.com and read about the thousand people hono(u)red for showing up at work on time for twenty years or something similar. The old spouse is outraged that if Sting was knighted (we _think_ he was), then why not Jeanie or Martin or Bob Copper? I explained that it's likely because Sting brought much more money into the UK and that's always been the realm reason for a knighthood.

Still, as said, it's something.

My casual (no research behind it) list of folk honorees, ALL MBEs:

Robert James Copper, MBE. Author and Performer (should also be savant)
Jimmy Shand, MBE
Anthony James ("Lonnie") Donegan, MBE
Aly Bain, MBE
Martin Dominic Forbes Carthy, MBE
Maddy Prior, MBE
3 members of The Singing Kettle:
        Cilla Fisher, MBE
        Artie Trezise, MBE
        Gary Coupland, MBE
Roy Bailey, MBE
Derek Bell, MBE
Jeanie Robertson, MBE

Here in the US, we do a much better job with the Kennedy honors & Presidential medals. Slight problem is they don't seem to be announced, publicised or archived as far as I've seen. Occasionally one learns that someone has become an Official State Troubador but that usually only lasts a year or three. (Eg, Caroline & Sandy Paton were the State Troubadours of Connecticut in 1996 - also more than richly deserved but fleeting.)

No; as has been said, Money makes the World go 'round.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 07:28 PM

I see Fionn, or Peter K, if that is his real name, has now realised how petty, churlish and uncouth his first post was. But it was Fionn's usual approach.

I can not defend orders relating to a dismantled empire, or dead monarchs. I can defend the intention behind the honour. The intention was to honour Bob Copper. This has been done.

To give an example after the Ty Nwydd colliery explosion and flood, members of the "Rescue Party" were awarded the Albert Medal. Does the fact that this Medal was names after a deceased Prince decry from thier courage ?

It may well be that the honours system requires overhaul, but until that is done please do not degrade the honour that was done to Bob Copper.

But then untill Fionn (or what ever trade name he calls himself) should think before posting - and check his previous posts !

Gareth

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Abby Sale
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 12:36 PM

So I got curious as to whom we actually do honor here in the arts.

See http://www.nea.gov/honors/medals/index.html
The National Endowment for the Arts' Lifetime Honors provides
The National Medal of Arts. It is awarded by the President of the United States to individuals or groups who, in his judgment, "...are deserving of special recognition by reason of their outstanding contributions to the excellence, growth, support and availability of the arts in the United States."

As far as I see, all folkists honored are:

1999 - Odetta - singer, music historian
1998 - Ramblin' Jack Elliott - folk singer, songwriter
1997 - Doc Watson - bluegrass guitarist, vocalist
1994 - Harry Belafonte - singer, actor
1994 (also) - Pete Seeger - composer, lyricist, vocalist, banjo player
1993 - Bess Lomax Hawes - folklorist
1992 - Earl Scruggs - banjo player
1986 - Alan Lomax - folklorist, scholar

The Medal was first given in 1985. A previou President's Committee on the Arts medal, 1983 only, did not honor any folkists.

Not too bad, overall but I'd add a few, myself

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 07:20 PM

Au contraire, Gareth - I'm happy to stand by my first post. Whether your characterisation of it is fair, I'll leave others to judge.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 08:10 PM

Looking at the dates, it seems Democrat Presidents are more likely to honour folkies. Or am I paranoid?

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: Nemesis
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 04:29 AM

Congratulations to Bob .. !! But - echo other threads here - an MBE isn't adequate recognition

Still, if I can pack into the Royal Oak at Lewes, Sussex on Thursday I shall be raising a glass to this great man at his 89th birthday party!

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:28 AM

I `ad that Bob Copper in my cab once. I asked `im if `ed bin and got `is Victoria Cross. `e said she was a bit angry at first but calmed down after `ed done a few verses about "The Ploughman`s Lunch" or something.
Don`t that Fionn go on a bit. If `e `ad `is way nobody would get anything and w`ed get no more bun fights at the palace.

Subject: RE: Bob Copper is on the Queen's Honours Lis
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 03:49 PM

The (U.S.) National Endowment for the Arts' National Heritage Fellowships are all about folkies (not just music). Being $$ and not just a medal, they're pretty nice. They don't make TV, though like the Kennedy Center Honors for the performing arts. Pete Seeger made it there, otherwise folk is pretty tangentially represented.

~ Becky in Tucson