Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers / ...Troosers

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 11:34 PM

Thanks for that, both of you. I was baffled as to which of them had it first.

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 01:10 PM

Kevin, Bert told me that in a conversation at the old NTMC years ago. He said it with a big grin. he knew I would be amazed. I always found Bert quite candid about words and tunes he had , in his own phrase, 'cobbled together'. The results seemed to come out fine in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: tuggy mac
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 07:11 PM

murry mcleod. johnie cope is a fine song!

Tuggy mac

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: John Nolan
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 06:59 PM

For what it's worth, Glasgow rhyming slang covers its bets with troosers (winners and losers) and trousers (Callard and Bowsers)- the last being a toffee maker.

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 04:34 AM

Glad to have my understanding of Bert's use of the tune confirmed Burl.

Was that info given at one of Bert's talks at the National, as I understand it was?

Also, following up on Malcolm's reply to my earlier posting, I hadn't made the "Sweet Thames/Recruited Collier" tune connection but can hear it now you've mentioned it (so many tune connections it's not always easy to spot them all!). I've got the vinyl of The Critic's Group LP of Sweet Thames flow softly so, if I can dig it out easily, I'll check the boolet notes and see if there's a mention.

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 01:04 PM

Bert Lloyd told me that he based his tune for 'Jack Orion' on 'Donald Where's Your Troosers'. I think the tune matched the lyric perfectly, another example of Bert's "cobbling together" hitting the spot. Furthermore, in my opinion Bert's recorded version of 'Jack Orion', with Dave Swarbrick playing fiddle, is superb.

Subject: RE: Hey Donal
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 01:28 PM

the song Elizabeth Stewart sings is very different from the Hey Donal, Ho Donal which is posted elsewhere on the 'cat (attributed to Mary Brookbanks)

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 01:21 PM

Elizabeth Stewart sings a song about Donal's misadventures with the lasses. The tune of "Hey Donal, Hi Donal" is similar to the tune of "Donal Whaur's [Faurs/Where's] Yer Troosers"

by the way, I don't see why we can't spell "troosers", "roond", "hoose" etc with the standard "ou" and pronounce those letters as we do in "you", "youth" and "uncouth"

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 06:01 AM

This notable composition IMHO ranks second only to the "Rambling Rover" as a contender for the official Scottish National Anthem.

The tune of course is none other than "Johnnie Cope", very slightly modified.

Murray

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:03 AM

When Andy Stewart switches to a 'pan loaf' accent, he says 'trowsers', which highlights his Scottish pronunciation of 'troosers.

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Reiver 2
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 08:40 PM

Yes, I think any Scots singer would say "troosers" or "trewsers" and not "trousers." I've never heard it any other way than "troosers".

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Strupag
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 08:23 PM

If Donald really came from Skye he would be talking about a "trooser" and not "trousers"

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Joybell
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 07:41 PM

I saw Andy Stewart (on TV ) when he toured here in Australia in the 1960s. He did that high kick -- and he had under his kilt -- wait for it -- another little kilt!!

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Reiver 2
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 07:31 PM

My paternal grandmother's name was True, originally Trew. So I did a little research on the name. Nobody asked, but I thought some of you might find this interesting. I did.

From the Irish Gaelic "trius" and the Scots Gaelic "triubhas" which were singular nouns used to denote "close fitting shorts." In Scotland, while Highlanders traditionally wore the kilt, Lowlanders generally wore what we now call "pants", a garment with legs that was drawn on over the feet (hence also the term "drawers"). In Gaelic these were referred to as "trews" or "trouse", the term being borrowed into English in the 16th century as "trewsers" or "trousers".

After the 1745 rising in support of Bonnie Prince Charlie (Chairlie) was put down by the English forces of King George II, the wearing of the kilt was proscribed. Many Highlanders had their kilts sewn into trews and "tartan trews" became a common form of apparel in the Highlands for many years.

Sources: Ayto, John, "Dictionary of Word Origins". Mackie, J.D., "A History of Scotland".

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: tuggy mac
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 05:42 PM

here in yorkshire there called keks

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 11:01 AM

Thanks, Kevin. I've been wondering about that for ages! You wouldn't happen to know whether there was any connection between Bert's tune for The Recruited Collier and Ewan MacColl's for Sweet Thames, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:51 AM

Malcolm

I believe that at one of the early National Folk Festivals at Loughborough Bert was asked where he got the tune for Jack Orion. He replied that it's "Donald wheres....etc", so I guess that DWYT came first of those two.

I was almost certainly there, as I rarely missed Bert's talks, but I can't recall hearing the quote but have been told by others.

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:39 AM

"Ye cannae tak the breeks aff a Hielan man"
As of course, Hielan men dont wear breeks !!...B W Ake

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Hamish
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:33 AM

Although I rather like the idea implicit in "You canna put the brakes on a highland man", I ratherthink it's "You canna put the breeks on a highland man".

(Breeks are strides, duds, traasaas, etc)

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 02:16 PM

There are two sets of lyrics in the DT:

DONALD WHERE'S YOUR TROUSERS Anglicised text from a record by some outfit called The Irish Rovers.

DONALD WHAUR'S YER TROOSERS? Text from unnamed source.

Neither of the above credit the writer(s).

I've remarked elsewhere that the tune used by Andy Stewart is the same as the one A. L. Lloyd used for Jack Orion (his re-write of Glasgerion); though obviously they are not identical. I don't know which of them got to it first, though, or what it was originally called; but I'm inclined to think that it pre-dates both songs.

Subject: Lyr Add: DONALD, WHERE'S YOUR TROOSERS
From: GUEST,Rosanne
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 01:43 PM

The tune is close to drunken sailor but not the same tune at all. Here are the words: (I'll try to stick to the phonetic pronunciation used in the song)


DONALD WHERE'S YOUR TROOSERS?
Words by Andy Stewart, music by Neil Grant, 1960. As recorded by Andy Stewart

1. I've just come down from the Isle of Skye.
I'm no very big an' I'm awful shy,
And the lassies shout when I go by:
"Donald, where's your troosers?"

CHORUS: Let the wind blow high; let the wind blow low.
Through the streets in my kilt I go.
All the lassies say: "Hello!
Donald, where's your troosers?"

2. A lassie took me to a ball,
And it was slippery in the hall,
And I was feart that I would fall,
But I hadnae on my troosers. CHORUS

3. Now I went down to London town,
And I had some fun in the underground.
The ladies turned their heads around,
Saying: [posh English accent:] "Donald where are your trousers?" CHORUS

4. To wear the kilt is my delight.
It is not wrong; I know it's right.
The islanders would get a fright
If they saw me in the trousers. CHORUS

5. The lassies want me, every one.
Well, let them catch me if they can.
Ye cannae take the breeks off a hieland man,
And I don't wear the troosers. CHORUS

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Sep 98 - 12:25 AM

AAAArgh!!

I just came back after 4 days elsewhere to discover that in my reply of 17 September I got terribly confused between this song and the other Tin Pan Alley ripoff of a Scots song ... the name of which has mercifully escaped me, but it had lines about: ... I'll meet her at the shore
Playing the pipes for her
Dressed in my kilt ...
which does (more or less) go to Scotland the Brave.

Sorry about the confusion (yours as well).

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 20 Sep 98 - 10:31 PM

Well, actually in Sharon Stone's case we probably do....

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 20 Sep 98 - 10:30 PM

Helen,
I don't know.........

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Helen
Date: 20 Sep 98 - 09:39 PM

Well, Alan, all I can say is God help us all if Sharon Stone ever buys a kilt. ;->

Helen

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 19 Sep 98 - 08:57 PM

G'day,
I also remember Andy Stewart doing the song live in Oz, wearing a kilt and when he sang "Let the winds blow high let the winds blow low" he did a high kick. The next line came out: "Ha ha ha and now you know". It was at the wrong angle for me so I'm still none the wiser.

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: alison
Date: 19 Sep 98 - 08:31 PM

Alan

Ok maybe there were a few too many "a's".

I remember my Dad playing the single, and yes it was pronounced "Donal where's yer troosers". There was a groovy bit in the middle where Andy Stewart did an Elvis impersonation........ well I was very young at the time. No doubt the single is still gathering dust back home.

I like the idea of sticking it into a collection of tunes though.

Slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Helen
Date: 19 Sep 98 - 08:25 PM

The other Aussie words for trousers are "duds" and "strides". I'm sure there are more - never call something by its real name if you can think of a colourful alternative - but I don't have a Macquarie Thesaurus so I can't give you the others.

Helen

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 19 Sep 98 - 08:22 PM

Alison!
"traaasaaas"???? What's that?? We pronounce it properly, diphthong and all. As for the "er" sound, we pronounce it "er", not "errr". Queen's English you know. The 'r' is not pronounced in its own right, it is simply a vowel modifier.

Humph,
Alan

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Barbara
Date: 19 Sep 98 - 07:56 PM

Yup, I originally heard it back in the late 50s or early 60s from Canadian/Scots rugby friends, and they sang "Doe-nal' whar's yer troosers?" (Except for the verse about the ladies in London, and that one was done very uppah crust Brit.)
So it's just a question of how braid your Scots is.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Kiwi
Date: 19 Sep 98 - 01:08 PM

When I've heard it sung (usually by regimentally dressed Scotsmen at the NY REnaissance Festival), the last line of the chorus was sung as "Donal', where's yer troosers?"

Slán, Kiwi

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: alison
Date: 19 Sep 98 - 07:40 AM

PS.

I can't even think of how to write phonetically the way us Belfast people pronounce the "ow" sound in trousers.

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: alison
Date: 19 Sep 98 - 07:33 AM

Hahaha alan,

You've never said trousers properly (ie. like me) in your life.

To answer your question Joe, an aussie would probably pronounce it"traaasaaas", (wouldn't you Alan??!!). I know it's a generalisation but most Aussies seem to replace "er" at the end of any word with "aa".

Slainte

alison (in a pair of shorts)

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 19 Sep 98 - 06:48 AM

G'day Joe,
An Aussie pronounces "trousers" like nobody else on earth! Certainly nothing like Alison does. But allowing for accents it's much like your pronunciation. We'd also usually say "pants". "Trousers" seems a little more formal.

Cheers,
Alan, also in jeans, although at 28 celsius today was a shorts day.

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Sep 98 - 02:42 AM

Say, alison, how does an Australian pronounce "trousers"? We say "TROW (like "HOW")-sers" here in California.
Well, actually, I guess the word here is usually "slacks." Back home in Wisconsin, it's "pants."
-Joe Offer, who prefers "jeans"-

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Dale Rose
Date: 18 Sep 98 - 02:38 PM

I checked on Andy Stewart's "A Scottish Soldier" album, Epic 19027, 1963. The authors are listed as Grant-Stewart, published by Peter Maurice Music Co. Ltd. (ASCAP) Several of the songs on the album are listed as traditional or traditional~~arranged by whoever, so I would assume that it is not a case of his taking credit for something that was not his. Though not definite on this point, the album notes would indicate that the single came out at least two years before that. It was his first single release.

Oh, and the listing says troosers, not trousers!

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: hrodelbert
Date: 17 Sep 98 - 10:22 PM

Right Alison! or should I say correct, my band does a medley of Country Joe Macdonalds 'Save the Whale', Drunken Sailor and of course 'Donald where's your trousers'precisely because it has a "minor" feel. Not much connection between the lyrics though although it could be considered funny with a slight stretch of the imagination

Ta Hrodelbert

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: alison
Date: 17 Sep 98 - 08:24 PM

Hi,

to be honest, the chord sequence (Em D) and tune is much closer to "What shall we do with the drunken sailor" than any of the scottish tunes mentioned.

Have a go at using the miditxt above, it should work.

Slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Helen
Date: 17 Sep 98 - 07:30 PM

I remember the song - used to hear it on the radio in my youth (50's - 60's). I would think it would be 20th century but I am sure it is based on an older tune. The one I was thinking of was Marie's Wedding, which isn't right either, I don't think.

Helen

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From:
Date: 17 Sep 98 - 05:53 PM

Harry Lauder, isn't it, which would make it pre-WWII.

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From:
Date: 17 Sep 98 - 09:54 AM

hmmmmm... wondering if there is a tune to to this I have never heard, because at least to MY ear "Donald Where's Your Trousers" sounds NOTHING like "Scotland the Brave"

No documentation, but I was once told that this song came out around WWII - and my Dad claims to have heard it then. I would be VERY suprised if the lyrics were older then Victorian and suspect much younger.

Subject: Tune Add: DONALD, WHERE'S YOUR TROUSERS
From: alison
Date: 17 Sep 98 - 03:23 AM

Hi,

Here it is....

MIDI file: DONALDTR.MID

Timebase: 480

Name: Donald, where's your trousers
TimeSig: 4/4 24 8
Key: G
Tempo: 100 (600000 microsec/crotchet)
Start
1680 1 64 036 0238 0 64 036 0002 1 64 037 0238 0 64 037 0002 1 64 034 0238 0 64 034 0002 1 64 045 0238 0 64 045 0002 1 62 023 0118 0 62 023 0002 1 64 032 0118 0 64 032 0002 1 66 033 0238 0 66 033 0002 1 64 036 0238 0 64 036 0002 1 64 032 0238 0 64 032 0002 1 64 036 0238 0 64 036 0002 1 62 048 0238 0 62 048 0002 1 62 034 0118 0 62 034 0002 1 62 030 0118 0 62 030 0002 1 62 043 0238 0 62 043 0002 1 62 037 0118 0 62 037 0002 1 62 030 0118 0 62 030 0002 1 62 037 0238 0 62 037 0002 1 62 040 0238 0 62 040 0002 1 62 041 0238 0 62 041 0002 1 61 027 0118 0 61 027 0002 1 62 033 0118 0 62 033 0002 1 64 042 0238 0 64 042 0002 1 64 046 0238 0 64 046 0002 1 64 050 0358 0 64 050 0002 1 64 029 0118 0 64 029 0002 1 66 026 0238 0 66 026 0002 1 64 049 0238 0 64 049 0002 1 64 037 0478 0 64 037 0002 1 71 022 0224 1 69 019 0014 0 71 022 0224 0 69 019 0018 1 67 045 0238 0 67 045 0002 1 66 036 0238 0 66 036 0002 1 64 044 0478 0 64 044 0002 1 64 044 0238 0 64 044 0002 1 64 046 0118 0 64 046 0002 1 64 041 0118 0 64 041 0002 1 64 046 0238 0 64 046 0002 1 64 038 0238 0 64 038 0002 1 64 029 0238 0 64 029 0002 1 62 032 0118 0 62 032 0002 1 64 023 0118 0 64 023 0002 1 66 029 0238 0 66 029 0002 1 64 042 0238 0 64 042 0002 1 64 044 0478 0 64 044 0002 1 62 049 0238 0 62 049 0002 1 62 040 0238 0 62 040 0002 1 62 036 0238 0 62 036 0002 1 62 034 0118 0 62 034 0002 1 62 020 0118 0 62 020 0002 1 64 042 0238 0 64 042 0002 1 62 021 0238 0 62 021 0002 1 62 031 0478 0 62 031 0002 1 64 036 0358 0 64 036 0002 1 64 042 0109 1 64 046 0014 0 64 042 0216 1 64 046 0030 0 64 046 0230 0 64 046 0001 1 66 040 0238 0 66 040 0002 1 64 040 0118 0 64 040 0002 1 64 046 0598 0 64 046 0002 1 71 041 0238 0 71 041 0002 1 69 049 0238 0 69 049 0002 1 67 044 0238 0 67 044 0002 1 66 039 0238 0 66 039 0002 1 64 054 0478 0 64 054 0002 1 64 042 0478 0 64 042
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:Donald, where's you trousers
M:4/4
Q:1/4=100
K:G
E8|EEED/2E/2FEEE|DD/2D/2DD/2D/2DDD^C/2D/2|
EEE3/2E/2FEE2|BAGFE2EE/2E/2|EEED/2E/2FEE2|
DDDD/2D/2EDD2|E3/2E/2EEFE/2E5/2|BAGFE2E2|
||

Slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: alison
Date: 17 Sep 98 - 03:12 AM

Hi,

Have to disagree Bob, it's not Scotland the brave. It's a minor tune, although it is pretty similar.

Might get around to posting it later

Slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 17 Sep 98 - 02:48 AM

G'day all,

Of course the tune (like all good comfortable-sounding tunes tend to be) is traditional - Scotland the Brave ... more or less.

Pipes don't play the top note because it is beyond their range, but otherwise it is the traditional tune (and the higher top note seems to be sneaking into everyone else's tradition, as long as they don't play Scots pipes.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 17 Sep 98 - 02:00 AM

G'day,
Recorded by Andy Stewart in the early 60s (he also recorded the Scottish Soldier). I think he either wrote it or it was written for him. I could be wrong - it was a while ago.

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: Dave T
Date: 16 Sep 98 - 09:28 PM

I don't think it's recent if it's the song I'm thinking of (I'll check out the posting). My wife was born in Scotland and her mom used to sing it. I'll see if I can find out how far back it goes, but I'm sure someone else out there will have some info.

Subject: Donald Where's Your Trousers
From: lesley
Date: 16 Sep 98 - 08:48 PM

Donald is posted twice at DT - but there's no info. Is this tune traditional? I can't find it in any of my books and wonder if it isn't one of those done recently but has the "traditional sound".

thanks...