musical snobbery

Subject: musical snobbery
From: GUEST,harry
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 05:47 AM

What do people think of musical snobbery amongst pub musicians? Have a read of this uptheirownarses You'd think they were playing the Albert Hall instead of a dingey run down pub in Lewisham!

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: treewind
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 08:12 AM

I can't make any sense of what that discussion is supposed to be about. It's a load of bollox. Don't give it any energy, I say.

For every assertion made in that thread, I can think of plenty of exceptions. And talk about judging a book by its cover....

Anahata

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 08:34 AM

Yeah, but it's funny though. And the characterisation of 'session types' is spot on. I know 'em all...I even recognise myself.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 09:11 AM

I went to a session last night. A party actually, and the host's teen son was playing a banjo. He keeps playing the same tune over and over ad nauseum. He has played it for at least the last three years, always way too fast and badly. His timing is non existent so it's impossible to play with him, and he had a cold, was sneezing and coughing all over the room.
Was that bad enough? well, yes, but there was more. He decided he could play the mandolin too.
I left before midnight, rang in the new year on the road home.

He's a good boy, but clueless. I always thought you should practice in private and play in public. Not this one, like many fiddlers and banjo pickers, he goes into an altered state and is the only person on earth.
I don't go to many "sessions". Does this make me a snob?

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Bassic
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 10:29 AM

I beleive there may well be a form of intelectual snobbery at work here with some people. Its a bit like half the first team from Manchester United going to the local park and joining in with a game of soccer with the local lads, then complaining that the standard wasnt as good as last weeks match against Chelsea!

I dont mean to infer that all eliete players have this attitude.............a great many of them go just to enjoy themselfs and get great pleasure passing on their skills and knowlege to beginners and improvers or just "joining in". And they dont condem those that cant or choose not to improve either, recognising the enjoyment that these people get from doing what they do and that music is often simply a common factor in a wider social interaction between friends.

The problem for some of these tallented intelectuals is that in their limited world, they are used to having a great deal of control and power. Take them out of their natural environment and they become simply unable to adapt to different circumstances, because they never have to in their world. They know all the rules and have the speed of thought and mental training to excell there. Throw them a "curved ball", or put them somewhere where there is something going on that they dont give value to, and they can become completely socialy inept. Some of our "Guests" here have the same attitude. Its sort of a "them ordinary people are playing with OUR toys....and they arnt doing it rite!" kind of attitude.

The reality is that these "toys" dont belong to them, wether they be Irish Tunes or the internet, someone let the "Cat" out of the bag a long time ago! Granted, things get watered down when they go public in this way, but its just a matter of re-organising so that they can continue to develope at the "cutting edge" rather than wasting their time running around trying to put their toys back in the toy box saying "you cant play with those they are MINE!"

Believe me, I admire the tallent and mental discipline that produces excellence, I then try to aspire to it myself, it motivates me by example. But I also recognise the down side to that level of single mindedness and the personalities and traits it SOMETIMES produces.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 11:14 AM

Why bring it up here? It's a pretty old thread and there have been similar threads here already, some of them involving a few of the people from thesession. I suppose it just goes to show that this isn't the only forum with trolls and other argumentative types.

BTW, I regularly read thesession and even post there occasionally. There's some really nice contributors on there and it's more closely focussed on playing music than Mudcat.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 11:33 AM

Kendall:

No, it doesn't make you a snob. Just a survivor!

A

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 11:45 AM

The only ones I have little tollerance for are the goofs who insist that if yer not playing it exactly as it was collected 200 some years ago, then you're playing it wrong...

It's people like that who suck the life out of music...

Or try to anyway...

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: GUEST,minkfish
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 12:40 PM

Bassic - I think you are absolutely right in what you say in para 4, - mainly because I agree with you :)
But seriously, I find myself getting unreasonably irritated by people that I consider to be below acceptable standard - and I think that the main reason I get irritated is because they are playing with "my toys" IN MY SPACE. Very often we are jostling for position in a busy session, and an inept player can be using up time that we better players could be filling (that is to dramatise the feeling a bit - but I'm sure a lot of people feel the same to some degree). So the answer is maybe to make more space (more sessions) so that we don't feel so anxious & competitive?

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 03:15 PM

I remember an encounter between a buddy of mine and a stranger in Newport during the Folk Festival, I think 1964...a bunch of us were jamming about and this guy was whining "Why can't we play together?" -- I forget why -- and this friend of mine looked at him and said "Because you're not good enough, is why!". Awful brutal, I thought, and not something I would have chosen to say -- but that was John for ya. And it was perfectly true, if cruel.

A

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 03:18 PM

"it was perfectly true, if cruel."

Well, sometimes the truth hurts...

That's called life...

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Dreadnought
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 03:29 PM

"it was perfectly true, if cruel."

Good for your mate, I'm sure a lot of people would have made the mistake of trying to be encouraging or inclusive at that point.

I'm sure if someone like Martin Simpson or Carthy had been there they would have reacted in exactly the same way.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 03:41 PM

Dreadnought: I'm equally sure they wouldn't (whatever they might have thought privately). These are two artists who are unfailingly encouraging and generous with their music. Unlike many considerably lesser session players.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: dermod in salisbury
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 05:15 PM

No snobbery at the session I have been to recently. But certainly class distinction. Those who are good players come in small clusters who play together regularly in privte. They set the pace, while the fringe (me) have to guess the key, the tune, the type of piece and catch up later, ifpossible. It is a wonderful education. And free. Fortunately, once you have guessed the key, almost any reel seems to fit with any other.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 05:41 PM

It is not just the snootiness at sessions that irks me, its that dang gobsh1tery the 'session' dot org perpetuatungthe myth of 'superiority' in Irtrad.

Its a lie, false, untrue, an import, a mistake, a shame.

Growing up during the commercialised folk revolution in the 50's-60's I learned both Folk and Irtrad, but I preferred, still do, Folk Singing and playing the Guitar. Even so I can hold me own with the best of them with a fiddle or whistle.

So what does our friend do. First off you need to stay the hell away from G-S central since most of them are fakes, liars and abusers who have shown to me how much they hate Ireland and its culture. They insult and abuse the few real Itraders who made the mistake of joining their site.

They are so screwed up that posting the lyrics of 'Phil The Fluters Ball' caused threats and a warning from its evil founder and chief spew pot.

Since it claims to be directed towards Irtrad, I am surprised that CCE has not already had it shut down OR sent the Ira to do what they are so good at....


In short ???? em.

Sessions as I recall them, ok I am that old I admit it. Back in the age of serious Beer drinking, live music - not just Irtrad - was often used to add spice to the proceedings. And that is exactly what happened, folks would join in with the songs and maybe IF there was a Box or flute etc dance about to a jig.

It was about having a good time. Then at folk clubs a more serious crowd gathered where specialised tastes were welcome. It worked well. Next came jams, often in the park, in a persons house and occasionaly in a Bar - the manager permitting. None of these events ever had anything even vaguely resembling bad feelings. In fact, the most shocking thing I ever recall was a drunk person knocking their beer over another persons clothes.

Sessions - jams with more fiddles and such than guitars etc - were really jams but only in Bars. Those I recall were good natured and there never would be a bitchin or anything like it. It was there I met people from all over the world doing their best to play Irtrad as they heard it. Even if their attempt was far short of my level I never ever ever would dare to make a big deal about it. What we often did was ignore our misgivings and let these good people play.

It was ,and is, not good manners to insult a person who is trying their best - besides the rest of an audience wouldnt know the difference anyway.

Happy thing about those days, I learned a bunch of great Irtrad tunes from folks who had never been to Ireland! So often the kind way is the best way.

If you want to use a real Folk site where your questions will be answered with more real knowledge than the session, then you should join the Muddie. Not only will you be welcome, but you may also meet s wellknow Irtrad players( who would not urinate on the session dot org if afire! ) who come here incognito for the company, the vast knowledge of the members and the often humbling kindness of the site and its staff.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 05:44 PM

Hmmm...sounds more like lack of musicality. I've come across these 'guess the key' types. They decide on one beforehand and if you suggest a tune they say 'that's in A, we're playing in D today'. Then you ask for the name of a tune they've just played because you'd like to learn it yourself. Nobody knows. 'Any idea which book you got it from?', you say. 'Book? Oh, no we don't use....'

What sort of (inverted) snobbery is this?   Definitely time to get the coat.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 06:08 PM


'Any idea which book you got it from?', you say


A musician who has come through the tradition (there are still a few around, some younger than most catters) and never read a note of music could take that as pretty damn snobbish on your part.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: treewind
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 06:09 PM

It is not just the snootiness at sessions that irks me, its that dang gobsh1tery the 'session' dot org perpetuatungthe myth of 'superiority' in Irtrad.

Well said, sorefingers - it was the point I was trying to make in my msg (#2 in the thread) but more specific about what I meant.
I particularly resented (for obvious reasons!) the suggestion that English music sessions were where all the sad no-hopers and nutters went.

In my experience of sessions (not hard core Irish which I gave up years ago) it's unusual for the incompetent, or anyone else for that matter, to try to dominate the session. Maybe I'm lucky living out in the sticks (Herts/Cambs/Suffolk) where life is less of a frenzied competition than London. Been there, done that.

Anahata

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 06:14 PM

Bassic -
I know someone who is a Champion Grade chess player - can thrash me in a single game - but I can maintain my standard while playing up to 20 games at once - he would never play me multiple games of chess - outside his level of expertise...

Robin

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 06:32 PM

Thanks, Guest. I rest my case.

Why, exactly, does an inability or unwillingness to remember a key, a title or a source render a musician unable to read music more 'traditional' than one who can? Surely you cannot be unaware that before the relatively recent development of electronic recording, notation was the *only* method of preserving accurately the musical inheritance we now have. In any case, I don't have a convenient shepherd living in a bothy round the corner. So I learn tunes from books.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 07:14 PM

No one who has been in The Radway at Sidmouth would ever think that it was ONLY the people playing Irish tunes who were good musicians.
       And I must confess the New Tavern sessions have tended to be very much'If you cant hack it,dont try to join in' a lot of the time,
but always gave time for the less experienced players to 'Do Their Own Thing' in between the Jigs and Reels played so fast that Flatley
couldnt keep up. Or Jazz. Or Music Hall. Or Country Western. Or any thing else. A good MIXED session is the only kind I really enjoy.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 07:31 PM

The Mudcat is a lot easier on the eyes than that site Harry linked us to. Much easier to read it and get around it.
.....
"Irtrad" - that's a new one on me. Never heard it, and I'll certainly never say it. Sounds like a variant on Irn-Bru, that Scottish reprisal to Coca Cola.
.....
I'm all for proliferation of music, and specialist venues and sessions can be an important part of that - but no time for people who see this as an occasion for hostility to those who approach things differently from themselves.
......
And no, I can't see Martin Carthy going "Because you're not good enough, is why!" He'd see it as important to deal with it in a way that would send the fella away resolved to practice until he was good enough, not humiliated and maybe alienated for good from folk music.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 07:39 PM

Yeah, Leadfingers,

I never could go back too often to sessions with tunes played that fast, and the attitude "if you can't keep up - piss off!".

When I had been learning the piano a couple of years, I tried to impress my father - who was a good violinist and was second lead in a symphony orchestra in the 1920's when he was less than 18 - sat me down quietly and said "any fool can play loud and fast - it takes real skill to play soft and quiet" and then demonstrated to me just how SLOW he could draw the bow across the strings while making a wonderful unwavering, totally controlled sound.

Affected my attitude to music for the last 45 years.... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 08:27 PM

Thanks Treewind and Robin for giving me hope that we can still play Folk music and have a beer without going completely mad.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 11:23 PM

It's a pretty poor teacher who can only find one way to spell a word.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Mr Happy
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 04:09 AM

Duelling folkies?

IMO its important not to take things TOO seriously.While its good that competancy in playing stuff can certainly lift the mutual enjoyment of contents, if we wish that the natural progression of the music continues, surely its in everyones interests to encourage new folks to the genre without dwelling too much on their present stage when with a little help they can be pointed in the right direction.

[?]

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 04:49 AM

Well while I have great respect for "3-chorder & capo guitarists" - who can play 3 more chords than I can - it is still a limiting factor in the type of music that can be produced.

All the same, "technical limits" inspire creativity - my umpteen register switch squeezebox still is not as favourite as some of the smaller ones with fewer capabilities - you have to work harder.

Briz31 TV was playing some Foster & Allen sound clips (I think they get them very cheap!) - my mother used to quite like them - I don't mind them at all, but then I like to listen to Opera too, but not all the same diet all the time - I like variety. I also grew up on Jazz, Cream, Joplin, Hendrix, and Metal Head...

If it's Good Music, it doesn't matter to me what style or type it is.

I've heard people do Sting songs at a folk evening...

Robin

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:39 AM

Foolestroupe.....Sting is one of the best folk writers around.In my opinion...Ake

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: GUEST,The Stage Manager
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 08:35 AM

McGrath of Harlow has I think has hit the nail on the head here, and I very much agree.

"I'm all for proliferation of music, and specialist venues and sessions can be an important part of that - but no time for people who see this as an occasion for hostility to those who approach things differently from themselves. And no, I can't see Martin Carthy going "Because you're not good enough, is why!" He'd see it as important to deal with it in a way that would send the fella away resolved to practice until he was good enough, not humiliated and maybe alienated for good from folk music."

I can't see Martin saying 'not good enough' either. Surely any 'traditional' singer who gives damn would want to see the tradition they represent reach as wide an audience as possible, and be handed on to future generations? Surely if Folk Music is to survive it has to be inclusive and relevant, rather than made exclusive in any way. Teaching, involving and encouraging have to be a part of this process.   

I may be misunderstanding something here, but I seem to have picked up the inference that 'real' traditional singers or players are indifferent to key and don't, or won't, read the dots. This seems very peculiar, and is manifestly untrue in a number of cases. If this goes hand in hand with a belief that playing fast is synonymous with good musicianship then I would seriously doubt if any player with these sorts of attitudes has the right to call themselves a 'Folk Musician' at all.

Certainly, if I came across this sort of thing, I first pause to consider if those involved actually understand what they are doing, then if I feel not, give them a wide berth in order to find some real folk musicians:- the ones who want to share their enthusiasm for the music and the music making with everyone who is interested.


SM

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 08:46 AM

It's only the second rate musos who have to put down others (for the sake of their own egos!) - often they will put down someone they THINK is bad, but the person may just be foxing to test them - if they don't know their face...

remember that the martial artist who has passed several dans of black belts in some styles wears a WHITE belt - because they wish to FORGET everything and start with the mnd of a beginner... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Pied Piper
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 09:29 AM

I've had a few "run-ins" with the Irish music fascists at thesession.org, but there are some nice folks there as well.
A concept I'd not come across before on this site, is the session "leader". Any body that knows what sessions are all about knows that nobody can lead a session.
Another thing that they do if you piss 'em off is make up lies about you, masquerading as other people.
So if you visit make shore your on all fours, tugging your forelock and you'll be fine


TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 10:49 AM

that 'real' traditional singers or players are indifferent to key and don't, or won't, read the dots.

My own experience is that seasoned folksingers are flexible and can shift a song from key to key as suits the voices singing it, without a moment's hesitation (or even using a capo!). Sticking to the dots is secondary to the spirit of people making music in folk circles. When you get anal about precisely emulating the key choices made by the authoritative performer of a folk-song you're sliding in to a different game.

A

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 11:12 AM

and of course the real reason they play Irish music is because it's a lot easier than Scots traditional music.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 11:28 AM

Transposing from another performer's choice of key to suit a different vocal range or to accommodate an instrument is an 'arrangement'.

Ascertaining a key upon which all participants in a session agree before embarking on a tune is a necessity. And that everyone subsequently plays the same variation as the tune progresses.

Not to replicate the same key choices and changes as performed by X but to establish what works best with the players you have. That's what rehearsals are for. And notation is a pretty useful aide memoire.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: NicoleC
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 12:24 PM

The next time someone starts a thread and whines about how all sessions end up as a repetitve incestual group of the same players and tunes over and over again, this thread should be re-read. Because almost all sessions are intimicably hostile to new people, regardless of skill level, and not necessarily for the same reasons.

And people wonder why I generally leave my instruments at home...

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: GUEST,The Stage Manager
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 01:11 PM

Amos,

Apologies, I wouldn't for a moment wish to detract from the ability of seasoned traditional performers to switch the key for a song as appropriate. Neither would I wish to indicate that this is undesirable. There seemed to be an inference from earlier threads (maybe my misunderstanding) that traditional performers think that key is unimportant. From my experience I do not believe this to be the case. However, I do believe it maybe used as some sort of affectation by people who maybe are not as 'traditional' as they would like us to believe they are, and who should probably know better.   


I also have more than a sneaking suspicion that unaccompanied singers naturally adjust key according to the acoustic of the room they are singing in. Nothing wrong with that. Having sat on a sound desk and set levels at checks in empty rooms and halls I know very well that all good musicians unconsciously adjust their own 'levels' at performance time to what they hear coming back to them from the room. Full or Empty.


As regards the dots I'm with the Countess on this one:- aide memoire, also vital in my case for learning tunes on guitar, I'm a slow learner, even for tunes I think I know already. If nothing else it makes me aware of just how many versions are skulling about, and how to avoid mixing them up. I've even found the dots useful in getting at what some performers are doing on their recordings!


God forbid I should get anal about key or 'the right version' I'm getting too long in the tooth for all that now. What I do though care about, and care passionately, is that a performance should be as good as a singer or player can make it. Also when it is a traditional piece that they do show some respect for the tradition it comes from, and for those singers who have gone before them who have nurtured or treasured the song because it was a part of their heritage.

Ultimately I think the 'right' way to sing a song is the one that gets through to the audience. This could well prove to be different on consecutive evenings, I'm pretty sure this is why some performers just can't give up, they're still trying to crack it every night!

SM

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 03:24 PM

Do others think the same "dog-eat-dog" attitude that some here perceive in "sessions" (which appears to mean tune-only-song-free gatherings) is generally absent in singarounds?

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:14 PM

Because almost all sessions are inimically hostile to new people, regardless of skill level.

Not my experience. More often than not a new face with maybe some new tunes or songs is more than welcome. There can be an element of wariness, if it's a stranger to everyone there but probably less so than in many social meetings, with a newcomer who has to introduce themself. After all, there's some strange people out there.

Good manners come into it too - in a pub you'd ease yourself into a conversation, listening first, not jump in and lay down the law, and it's the same with a session.
....

When it comes to keys, if someone's singing a song they should pitch it wherever it suits their voice on the night, which can vary, and it's up to anyone who is playing an accompaniment, if anyone is, to adjust to that. For instrumental tunes, any group of people playing together will develop their own understanding about what key to use, and there's no reason why that should necessarily be the same as some other session, let alone some recording someone has made. And most tunes benefit from being played in a different key from time to time to see how that works out.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: NicoleC
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 08:40 PM

More often than not a new face with maybe some new tunes or songs is more than welcome.

That's what's always said, especially before the session starts, but the actual welcome is anything but. This isn't a particularly long thread, yet dot readers and ear learners have both been peered down the nose at, anecdotes of "you're not good enough" have been empathized with, admissions have been made that regulars think new members are interfering, and of course anyone who dares play a tune that doesn't fit the theme of the session (as defined by the regulars but rarely shared with those that aren't insiders) is a session wrecker or trying to take over.

In short, the stone wall of attitude is: "It's MY session and who the hell are you to have any opinion about the tune selection/key/pace, etc.?!"

And the worst aren't the good players... they're the mediocre ones.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 09:21 PM

You've clearly had some bad experiences, Nicole, mine haven't matched yours.

You said yours reflected "almost all" sessions, I said "more often than not" it was the other way round. We can't both be right.

Maybe someone could get a research project trying to find out the truth about this kind of thing, covering a range of different places -different regions/countries, different types of venues, different types of music, different types of participants.

Hell, but wouldn't that be a great research project to be involved in...

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 10:55 PM

A regular session is, effectively, a club; a pre-existing, defined social unit. There are generally unwritten rules of one kind or another. They are usually not too difficult to twig. A newcomer is, naturally, expected to fit in with what is already happening. That is the same in any social situation anywhere. You begin by going along with the way things are done; if you want to introduce new ways, you must first gain acceptance on the existing group's terms. Nothing unusual in that; it's the way normal human interaction operates.

The discussion invoked at the beginning of this thread is not untypical of a certain class of musician, but it's scarcely interesting or surprising. People start such discussions quite regularly (there have been a great many here in the past) and little or nothing is ever said that is new. The distinction apparently being made there between "Irish" and "English" sessions does seem to be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the natures of both: I can only think that those people, whoever they are, are using "English" to apply to the kind of generalist, mixed session that includes instrumental music and both traditional and modern song, and "Irish" to the tune-driven kind; my own experience (admittedly only going back about twenty years) would not support that viewpoint.

They all seem to live in the South, however; perhaps things are different there.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 09:11 AM

A while back when we still had a tradition and not a revival, sessions took place in homes, pubs and all sorts of other places. They also included people who would (step) dance, tell stories, sing and play. I'd be interested if anyone knows where the first two still take place. Singing in sessions seems to be on the decline unless you know plenty of lusty chorus songs or unless you go to a directed (led) session. I understand that beginners, novices and strangers can upset a session, but who is going to be the arbiter of who should practice a bit longer in the bedroom? Sessions are a good way to discover style or a new tune. The sensitive novice will hold back or play quietly, the sensitive master won't hijack someone else's contribution.

With respect to keys etc. tunes tend to be played in the keys which suit the instrument and player. So for a fiddle, mandolin, Anglo concertina and melodeon, expect D and G to predominate, guitarists will use a capo if need be or the more adventurous will start to use alternate tunings (like the aformentioned Carthy and Simpson who care more about helping and encouraging rather than criticising and patronising). Singers will pitch to suit their voice and surroundings. So the notion of a particular key for a trad song or tune is false. They may have been collected and notated by people like Sharp in a particular key, maybe the key that the source used, maybe a key the collector favoured, but a virtual stave for the notation would be more appropriate (ie you can shift the root up or down to suit which key you like). Without notation, much of our tradition would have been lost, so don't knock it. If morris dances could have been notated easily, then Sharp would have preserved these along with the tunes. There are plenty of morris tunes archived now which have lost their dances forever.

The beauty of folk music is that it is something that can be experienced by all who want to participate and that's they way the traditionalists rather than revivalists saw it. It was something to share and celebrate. The only other genre that springs to mind that matches that is pop karaoke.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 09:27 AM

I was with you till the last sentence. Please say you don't mean it...you do know that 'karaoke' means 'empty orchestra'...don't you?

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 10:24 AM

Karaoke isn't very pleasant, but it is a reflection of the fact that people do like to stand up and sing - but and at the same time they feel very embarrassed at doing anything that isn't socially normative; for some reason the karaoke format seems to give a sort of permission to perform in public that we seem to need.

Folk clubs can do that also, but you have to be there in the first place. Sometimes sessions can do it too. But more often than not, even if they are welcoming to people who are already into folk music (in a way that I have generally found that they are, though Nicole has experienced it differently), non-folkies probably don't see it that way generally.

I wonder whether for some people karaoke has been their first step into standing up and singing in public? Any Mudcatters going to confess to that in their past?

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 11:20 AM

Am I right in thinking that Karaoke is mostly competition-based? Was it originally competition-based?
The fact that it gets people up and singing is good - but then you are limited to the selection of pop songs for which the backing track is available?
Actually - by default I despise Karaoke, but haven't actually had a go and haven't been present at more than about two. So perhaps I'm being prejudiced.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: GUEST,ella
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 11:22 AM

McGrath you speak SO MUCH sense, I would never have thought of a plus point for karaoke, until now.

The other day I couldnt find something on Google, and my next thought was McGrath would know it, you were my second choice search engine.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 12:22 PM

Yep, I know it is empty orchestra and regrettably I do mean it. I've done it once. I was invited to a party but had a ceilidh to do. Anyway, celidh done, I went to the party and decided that I'd give it a go and not necessariy for the best motives, but hey a couple of decent pints of real ale.....

I'd sooner people be doing the real folk thing.

Here's another gruesome thought, do you think the Beeb or ITV/CH4/CH5 would do Folk Academy or Folk Idol?

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 01:55 PM

Don't tempt them. But whoever would they get to enter?

He he, now for some *real* musical snobbery...

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 02:35 PM

Kartaoke can be any type of music. I saw a Karaoke Opera record once. They have Irish Folk Karaoke in some theme pubs, I believe.

Subject: RE: musical snobbery
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 05:13 PM

So why do so many "newbies" to a session turn up once, then never come back? I have encouraged many to turn up, and seen this happen.

Robin
Hmmm, one of the ads below is for a Brisbaner Music shop - Steptoe.