Auld Lang Syne - folk process?

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:02 PM

I agree, DR, but if people think "my dear" makes more sense to them than "my jo," I say let 'em. In "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" and "deck the Halls," they now also replace "gay" with "fine."

These changes make me want to barf, but should merry-hearted singers care about my opinion? Of course not!

The important thing is that an author's canonical texts remain available for those, like us, who still care about such things. One good thing about the Internet is that they're more widely and easily available than ever before.

Let the good times roll.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: GUEST,Dave Rado
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 11:35 AM

This is a fascinating thread with some great links, especially the one to the
electric scotland article.

However, I think the comparisons some posters have made to people not knowing most of the verses of various national anthems, or to the lyrics of traditional unattributed folk songs changing over time, are inappropriate in this case, because Burns is not a simply "known and well respected" (to quote from one of the posts above) - he is generally regarded as being among the ten or so greatest poets of all time, and he is regarded by many as the greatest writer of song lyrics of all time. As such, messing with his lyrics is akin to misquoting Shakespeare.

And in the case of Auld Lang Syne, most of the changes that have been made to his original have completely altered the tone and meaning of the song from that intended by Burns. By singing only the first and last verses (or sometimes, only singing the first verse), and omitting the rest, it makes it appear to be an up-beat, optimistic song - whereas the complete song is very wistful, and should therefore, I think, be sung at a slower tempo than it normally is these days.

And the original line "For auld lang syne, my jo" (meaning "my sweetheart" or literally, "my joy") is much more intimate than "For auld lang syne, my dear" which is usually sung today.

The original is a wistful and nostalgic song in which the poet, meeting up again with his childhood sweetheart, reminisces about how close they once were, and reflects a little sadly on how they have ploughed separate, hard and lonely furrows since then. For the sake of their former happy times together, he invites her to share a drink with him and to reminisce.

That is not the tone or meaning that most people would think it had as they listen to the greatly shortened and slightly amended lyrics that are usually sung today, generally sung to an up-tempo, optimistic beat. All the subtlety and wistfulness of the original is lost.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Ferrara
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:51 AM

The sheet music on Masato's link gives the first verse as:

Should auld acquaintance be forgot
And never brought to mind?
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And auld lang syne?

which should settle the question of "for sake of" versus "and days of" auld lang syne. But that isn't going to stop me from discussing it!

"For the sake of auld lang syne" makes no since at all IMHO; why would you forget your old friends for old times' sake, unless they've recently turned into axe murderers and you want to keep the positive memories of long ago? It would make more sense to say, "Shouldn't old acquaintance be remembered, for old times' sake?" which doesn't quite scan :-).

I have always heard and sung the last line (a US thing?) as "And days of auld lang syne," which does mean something: Should old friends be forgotten, and should the days of long ago be forgotten? (the days long gone, days that are long since gone -- you can't quite translate it literally can you?)

Well it looks as if neither is "right" but I don't guess I'll change the way I sing it.

Oh dear. Not on topic, but up above I originally wrote, "It would make more since to say, ..." Oh dear. Age is creeping up. Once the brain cells go it's the beginning of the end.... Well I hope my friends will be patient with me, for old times' sake!

Rita

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 May 06 - 05:10 AM

Authentic or popular version ? ....... It matters not. For me, it's one of the most God awful song I've ever heard. It's a dirge which spoils every New Year celebration.


DC

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Alice
Date: 13 May 06 - 07:11 PM

I was just watching a PBS tv show called "Real Simple".
Their "word expert" was talking about Auld Lang Syne. They gave pronunciation of syne in Auld Lang Syne as.... "ZYNE".
Aaaargh.. like fingernails on a chalk board when I hear that!
I fired off a message to let them know there is no "z" in syne!
If you want to contact them, the web site is here:
http://www.pbs.org/realsimple/contact.html Click here

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 10:07 PM

Pint stowp = beer belly.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 09:24 PM


"AULD LANG SYNE,"—ITS ORIGIN, POETRY, AND MUSIC. By JAMES DICK

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 09:17 PM

Sine or syne also had the meaning "To rinse Out" in old Scots.
My grandfather used it all the time.

"Auld lang Syne" of course means "long ago"

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 09:05 PM

From Robert Ford, Song Histories (William Hodge, 1900, p. 10):

It is a curious fact that in every mixed gathering--yea, on all occasions where "Auld Lang Syne" is sung in concert--the last line of the chorus is invariably rendered--

             For the days of auld lang syne.

although it is never printed that way, and the extra words are not necessary for the sake of the tune.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:21 AM

Here in Edinburgh, there is a large group of us who sing it far too often, genrally trying to lead a large number of people with no idea of how it goes.
We tend to sing "for the sake of", with a not too much of an accent.
This may be due to how we leant it, or us trying to make it clearer for those who don't know it, and often have shakey english. Adapting stuff to your audience is a part of the folk process.
The lang syne tends to become lang Syne,

But as I said, we're in Edinburgh, not really Scotland at all.

Bunnahabhain

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Barbara
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

Reading through the discussion Masuro posted ("England lays claim to Auld Lang Syne") I see that the tune I know belongs to "The Miller's Reel" as posted by Joe Kesselman.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Barbara
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM

Oh, and by the by, I've always sung "And the days of auld..."
Guess maybe it is a US tradition.

I think the reason we get "Old Lang Zyne" is because of the proximity of the 'g' ending 'Lang' and the 's' beginning 'syne'. I think we US singers tend to be less precise with our consonants than our UK cousins, and running them together produces the 'z' sound heard here.

Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Barbara
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:57 PM

Stoup or stowp - "a kind of jug or dish with a handle"
(so a pint would be the size of stoup)
(from the Burns Dictionary at tartans.com)

The tune I sing is one I learned from Jean Redpath, and I was told recently by some traditionalist singing friends that her tune was too hard, and that in any case they were singing the original. ( Which sounds more like the popular one by far. Jean's is in mixolydian.

So what is the "original" tune?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: GUEST,Jimmy
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:31 AM

What on earth is "pint-stoup"?

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 02:42 PM

That's a good site, masato. The melody purportedly from the Scots Musical Museum (O can ye labour lea, young man) is not quite right. I have the volumes and the melody printed there is in F rather than G (although that shouldn't really matter) but much closer, almost identical, to the tune we sing today.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 11:28 AM

On the history of "Auld Lang Syne" tunes, see England lays claim to 'Auld Lang Syne'.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:45 AM

I just found another song in Johnson's Museum, submitted by Burns, called 'O can ye labour lea, young man?'

The first line is 'I feed a lad in Roodmas' and the tune is what we now use for Auld Lang Syne. The notes say that '...this old tune was modelled into a strathspey, called the Miller's Daughter which Sheild selected for one of his airs to his overture to Rosina; and Gow afterwards printed under the name of 'Sir Alexander Don's Strathspey',

So the folk process really has worked on Auld Lang Syne!

It's strange that Burns actually knew both tunes but the fragment we know as 'Auld Lang Syne', submitted by him, was set to the much lesser known one.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 04:45 PM

'And the days of' was used by the BBC's Hogmanay Party but I haven't seen that printed anywhere. Burns' version is 'for auld lang syne'. In Chambers' Songs of Scotland prior to Burns, many verses of an old song, pre 1700, called Old Long Syne is printed and he observes that Burns produced another song based on this, partly his own composition. However in Johnson's Scots Musical Museum Burns is recorded as saying that he found this 'fragment' which is reproduced there, no mention of his adding to it. He makes it quite clear where he added or altered other songs in The Museum. He used an old Lowland tune called Auld Lang Syne but later it was published by Thomson with the air we know today, 'I feed a Lass at Martinmas'.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 12:14 PM

Glad to know I'm not alone in recognizing the lyric as "And days of" rather than "for the sake of." Based on the limited evidence so far, it sure looks like a transatlantic issue, sung one way in the US and the other in the UK.

I'm not sure, and not willing to do the research, but my best guess would be that "days of" is the way that the vocalist for Guy Lombardo and his Royal Canadians did it, on live TV every New Year's Eve through the late 50s-early 60s. They probably made a widely-distributed recording as well.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Burke
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 11:56 AM

Is this a case where the colonials have stayed closer to the original? I'm in the US & also know it the way PoppaGator does.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 11:45 AM

I, for one, don't remember ever having heard "for the sake of (old/auld) lang syne" in my 73 years. For whatever that's worth.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 11:13 AM

Another quote, from here:

Most people might be surprised to realise that Auld Lang Syne is quite a long song, composed of five verses and the chorus. On New Year's Eve, most of us only sing the first verse and the chorus, probably because most of us are not in much of a state to sing any more. Most of us know the words, but just in case this is how the version most of us sing on New Years Eve goes:

"Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
and never brought to mind?
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
For the sake of auld lang syne.

For auld lang syne, my dear,
For auld lang syne.
We'll take a cup of kindness yet,
For auld lang syne."

The original version is tinged slightly more with Scottish dialect, and I think the use of the word "sake" is a slight twist on the original, but apart from that, the song has remained pretty much intact since it was first written in 1788. Although it seems most people (including me) do not know the words, and most people, even some Scots apparently sing it incorrectly.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 11:03 AM

I can't recall hearing anyone (here in the US) sing "for the sake of..." Indeed, I'm not sure where that phrase would appear.

As I hear it in my mind's ear, the last/fourth line of the verse (or perhaps of both verses) goes "And days of Auld Lange Syne." Would this by where "sake of" appears as an alternative lyric?

I missed hearing it at all this year, by the way. I stayed home nursing a throat infection, along with my daughter and brand-new granddaughter, born 12/3/03. Son-in-law is a waiter, so he was at work hoping to make big tips money on one of the year's biggest evenings, and I was glad to provide a little company for the new mama.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:41 AM

Fans of the Dalziel & Pascoe books (but not the TV series!) will recall that two or three books back, Andy D has the folowing conversation with his lady friend (name escapes me) after a New Year celebration:
She: What's a "right guid willie-waught"?
He: I don't know, but I'm going to give you one when we get home!

Steve

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: fiddler
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 09:10 AM

I thought - was told - by a Scot - I've only Scots Ancestry - that Burns publishers put the well known tune to it as the tuen profered by burns - the one many Scots are trying to revive (fortunately) would not sell.

I stand open to be corrected as ever!

A

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 07:51 AM

Well, the wellknown tune is a different matter, much discussed.
Some aver it to have been English, on hotly rejected grounds.
Burns offered the tune he heard - 'from an old man' if memory serves -to his publisher, who preferred another tune - had Burns not already used the 'original' tune for something else? Jim, how much of the text do you think is 'trad' and how much written by Burns? He mostly seems to have kept just the first verse and chorus, and made / remade the rest, but I've not seen a discussion on this.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Hamish
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:48 AM

I'm a bit distressed by Eddie Reader's latest CD (mostly Burns' material) where she sings "old" instead of "auld". And she was born and bred in Glasgow, so I guess it's at least a conscious decision.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:50 AM

As to how well the last line scans, most Burnsologists currently agree that the original tune was somewhat different: if you hear the original tune, "...for auld lang syne" fits better.

wr

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:10 AM

Burns did't write Auld land Syne, but collected it (his own observation). There are many regional dialects and pronunciations in Scotland and coming from the West coast, I have always used 'syne' although I doubt if it's used nowadays in everyday speech. My father and that generation used 'sinsyne' a lot, meaning 'since then'. I would think that a Scot in England who says 'sin' is being merely lazy (or is very old)!

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 07:02 PM

"... and who says 'zince'

People in Zummerset, where the Zider apples grow.

My impression is that when speaking Scots pronounce "syne" to rhyme with "tin" rather than with "fine".   Clearly, it's got to be the latter in Burns's song, to sort of rhyme with "mind", but does this indicate that there's been a shift in pronunciation, or was he cheating? (Or is it just that the Scots I know have lived in England too long - or too lang.)

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: rodentred
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 06:50 PM

I suspect Masako has the point here. When people sing it in party mood they don't care if they are accurate or not, they are out to have a good time. It's only pedants who disapprove, but since no-one really knows the words of the song so what?

I remember a previous New Year's Eve programme when Richard Digance sang the whole thing correctly and confused the Scots audience who wanted to sing 'for the sake of..'

I would still appreciate a response from anyone who has ideas or knowledge of the source of the departure. I think I can remember singing 'for the sake of' at least 30'ish years ago, but memories of such times generally fade into alcoholic inaccuracy!

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 04:24 PM

it sorta means "times gone by" or "our cherished memories"...it just sings better in the Scots dialect.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 03:52 PM

Literally it does mean "for old long since." But what the heck does *that* mean? It means "for old times' sake" or "for the days of long ago."

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 03:21 PM

The 'Z' sound bothers me more than 'for the sake of' and is heard everywhere outside Scotland, not just in the USA. 'Syne' is an old word for 'since' and who says 'zince'?

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 01:53 PM

I think "For the sake of Auld Lang Syne" actually sounds and scans better.   There's nothing sacred about the original version of a song, even when the author is known and well respected. When the folk change songs they often get these things right.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 02:02 PM

From here:

Here we are presented with perhaps the most famous song, anywhere in the world (excluding perhaps "My Way", "Blue Suede Shoes", and "Hey Jude" - hmmm !) and yet still only a handful know the words. We gather together at various social occasions, from New Year, to annual "conferences", and at the end of the night….we form a circle….the music starts….we sing the first line…. "Should Auld Acquaintance Be Forgot and………rum tee tum dah dee….lah .lah….lah.lah lah..lah..lah lah…"for the sake of Auld Lang Syne"

" The next verse then often proceeds " And here's a hmmm… hmmm… mmmm… mmmm etc ….etc"… until the entire company sing out loud and proud that famous line……ALL TOGETHER NOW……(Holding Hands of course) ……..
"For Auld Lang Syyyyyyyyyne" !!!!!   

To be serious however, I must point out to those of you reading this article who do not really know about "Auld Lang Syne", that you are not alone. Even here in Scotland, many could not accurately sing the words for the shortened version of the poem attributed to Robert Burns. Even those who can get through, get many of the words wrong.

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 01:48 PM

In the U.S., after a few drinks, people who don't really know the words sing "OLD LANG ZINE". If you listen carefully you may find this to be the common pronunciation in America. Course, we also say "ZEE" where you folks say "ZED".

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 01:06 PM

"Auld Lang Syne" is Scots for "Old Long Since" surely?

Subject: RE: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 12:59 PM

Its the laziness thing isnt it ?? I was always taught that Auld Lang Syne was sort of Scots for Old Time's Sake, So 'For the the sake of Old Times Sake ' Is a Tautology ( I hope thats the right word ). I am prepared to be further instructed in this matter by those with better information.

Subject: Auld Lang Syne - folk process?
From: rodentred
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 11:03 AM

It was noticeable at the New Years Eve programme on BBC (separate thread) that the performers were keen to keep to the Burns original 'for auld lang syne'. However the folk process seems to be working against this with the common version of 'for the sake of auld lang syne' in more common, if incorrect, useage.

I was wondering if anyone can trace when this departure happened and how it came to be so widespread.

Also do others think this is just a (relatively small) bit of folk process not to be sneered at any more than the changes we reguarly see to documented broadside ballads, for example.