BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights

Subject: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 08:17 PM

From Declan McCullagh's Politech list:

Citing only national security, and without a warrant or subpoena, the FBI
has demanded the guest lists from Las Vegas hotels for the New Year's
holiday. All but one has complied. (I'd like to know which one, since
that's where I'll be staying from now on.)

Also note in the article that the request went to "major hotels", as if
terrorists are above staying in an off-strip roach motel.

Wired News article here.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:16 PM

Amos: are you trying to make a mountain out of a molehill? So the FBI wants the guest list from major hotels. Big deal. Of course terrorists might choose to stay in a fleabag hotel, but those hotels would likely not even have a telephone, much less a computerized reservation system. Terrorism is a difficult enemy to combat. Anything that would help to combat it should be welcomed. We must rely on the FBI and other professional agencies of that type to determine which hotels (in this case) must be targeted for information. Or we could, of course, suggest to the FBI that we rely on the Mudcat security experts to recommend those sites that should be included.

I don't think so.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:31 PM

Well, I would suggest it would be wise to include an independent judiciary in the process who would be required to balance "necessity" of the extenuating circumstances I agree anything that will block another 9-11 should be done, and so would a judge. The problem is the usurpation of the authority to okay it. Giving the FBO the power to unilaterally without specifics claim national security and pull the travel records of citizens is awfully close to a police state. If you don't see the difference then enough molehills will gradually accumulate until your grandchildren do live in such a state.

A

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 12:27 AM

Yet another thread (See Boo'em Busho) that suggests our government is more interested in harassing citizens than finding terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 02:47 AM

Sure, terrorists will generally stay in major hotels under their right names and make all their calls from their rooms. Why wouldn't they?

Let me think.

Or maybe the FBI is looking for someone other than terrorists and it's easier to say "national security" than to find a judge and do it the old-fashioned way.

Or maybe they're just twits. When I was in radio school in Fort Knox the CO required that all copies of the International Morse Code be locked in a safe at night.

Honest. National security, man.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 06:20 AM

Clint,

"Sure, terrorists will generally stay in major hotels under their right names and make all their calls from their rooms. Why wouldn't they?"

Whenever I have visited the US I have always been asked why am I there (purpose of visit) and where will you be staying. I would imagine that for those entering the country with a large body of tourists it is easy to state that you like them are on holiday and pick a resort hotel as your destination.

A simple check of a list of who is actually staying at the hotel can be compared to a list of who said they would be staying at that hotel would give some form of short list - so not so daft as you would like to make it sound.

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 07:57 AM

Seems to me that it would be a lot cheaper, and safer for us to start treating the Arabs like we treat the Israelis. That is the root of our problem. Bush says they hate us because we are free. Does anyone believe that crap? There are three reason why they hate us:
1. They used to be the most powerful society in the world. We in the west have taken that away.
2. They have been ruled by despots for centuries (with our help)
3. The big one, they hate our support of their enemy, Israel.
Now, before someone who like to add what is not there, this is not a statement about who is right or wrong, I simply say the truth about why they hate us.
Anyone who thinks we can defeat terrorism by military means is an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: sledge
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 08:15 AM

Any body who thinks a terrorist will stay in a major hotel with all its attendant security, cameras etc must be a little naive. What do they put on their luggage, "bomb", just in case they forget. I thought to be as anonymous as possible would be more desirable, small B&B, trailer parks or those large recreational vehicles would suit better.

Sounds like somebody has been reading too many James Bond books. Maybe the regional FBI boss was hoping for a roulette wheel confrontation with the bad guys before his duel to the death on top of a large casino.

Cheers

Sledge.

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 08:23 AM

Here's a round of applause for Kendall - the best medics always treat the disease, not the symptoms.

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 08:33 AM

Many European countries have always done the same (collected lists of hotel guests , kept passports at reception etc) but whether anyone ever looked at them I doubt!
Of course, any real terrorist or criminal would not use traceable IDs.
An acquaintance who always holidays in Las Vegas, two or three times a year, came back so frustrated with over-zealous security this Xmas that they've vowed never to go back to US!
Hope Bill Sables gets away with his banjo and Yorkshire Tea!

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:10 AM

RtS,

Regarding police checking hotel registrations and passports. They certainly used to in France during the OAS days, in Spain during the fifties and early sixties (Franco), in Italy and in Switzerland.

Doktor Doktor,

Some comments with regard to kendall's post:

Taking the three reasons for the Arabs hating us (the West)

1. They used to be the most powerful society in the world. We in the west have taken that away.

So they are envious of the West and they long for the by-gone days of past glory (the Moorish Empire). Suggestions/Solutions offered to alleviate this condition - None. Does anyone, for one bloody minute, propose that the West restore them to what they perceive as being their rightful position in the world.

There are numerous parallels in history as to why their Empire, society and influence declined, in the case of the Arabs their religion and conservatism played a major role in that decline.

The West did not take it away. With the fall of Holy Roman Empire, the knowledge and learning that was brought to Europe sparked off the Rennaissance, encouraged investigation and taught people in the West to question and challenge established doctrines and dogma. The power of the Catholic Church was broken and men from the countries of western Europe went out to explore. Not having any religious authority to restrict activity led to invention and innovation. The merchant and latterly the middle-classes became increasingly upwardly-mobile. Neither the agrarian, nor industrial, revolution could have been possible in an Arabic society - without either we would have starved. The classic example of this relates to ancient China compared to the West - they invented gun-powder centuries ago and created a colourful amusement for an Emperor. The West took that invention and landed a man on the moon.

2. They have been ruled by despots for centuries (with our help)

Their religion and their belief in the will of Allah predisposes them to rule by despots. Kendall's "(with our help)" is a bit of a joke considering his previous use of "centuries". "With our help" may possibly be applied in very few cases covering the last forty years.

3. The big one, they hate our support of their enemy, Israel.

The UN recognised the sovereignty of the state of Israel in 1948. The Arabs and the nations in which they reside are member states and should therefore be bound by that. They never have and some state that they never will. The thing the Arabs seem to fail to grasp is that once they have renounced the aim of the destruction of Israel and officially recognise Israel as a sovereign state, US backing of Israel is no longer required. The original dispute in the Palestine Mandate between Arab and Jew was founded on deliberate lies told by Yassir Arafat's Uncle with the express intention of fomenting unrest.

Talking of crap: Lets look at what kendall identifies as the root of our problem -

"Seems to me that it would be a lot cheaper, and safer for us to start treating the Arabs like we treat the Israelis."

Does that mean that the West, and the USA in particular, pays out billions in aid for absolutely no return and arm them to the teeth? If memory serves me correctly the old Soviet Union certainly did the latter but it did not seem to have done them any good.

"Bush says they hate us because we are free. Does anyone believe that crap?"

I do believe that with education and the advent of the internet the religious fanatics feel threatened that they may well lose their grip and power to control what up to now has been a fairly biddable population (Iran is the best example of this currently in the region). Those same fanatical clerics look to the West and see the same freedoms of thought, expression and attainment that the younger members of their followers can also see, and they fear, and hate, it. Why because it destroys their power base and they will lose their influence.

I don't believe anyone has ever defeated terrorism by military means alone, but that is not to say that there is not a military element in defeating terrorism.

If the three root causes are as described by kendall then the Arabs have to do the following:

1. Grow up and forget about turning back the clock - That is not going to happen, never has, never will.

2. Join the rest of the world in the 21st Century

3. Address the immediate needs to improve the lot of their own citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 03:47 PM

Please see also:

Bush Snags More power for FBI in which the President empowers the FBI to grab your financial records without due process, judicial review, showing just cause, or any other justification.

How much power do you think the FBI can really be trusted with, George? Does the word Waco mean anything, aside from a self-assessment? Ruby Ridge?

This man is pushing the machine so for to the right it is likely to hit the ditch!


A

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 12:48 AM

"A simple check of a list of who is actually staying at the hotel can be compared to a list of who said they would be staying at that hotel…"

That's a good point Teribus, and one I hadn't thought of. But it still assumes terrorists would claim they'll stay at only the major hotels. How do they know? If our terrorist says he's going to stay at a minor hotel, and does, they won't have a list to compare...

clint

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 01:39 AM

I think if the authorities suspected a terrorist attack mounted by foreigners, say in Las Vegas, they would check all hotels irrespective of size.

To blend in with large groups, such as tourists, the timing of your journey, your point of departure and entry and your destination and where you stay have to conform to the norm.

Another question often asked is how long will you be staying. That too could be checked under the present system.

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 02:56 AM

"I think if the authorities suspected a terrorist attack mounted by foreigners, say in Las Vegas, they would check all hotels irrespective of size."

Well, I think so too; that was more or less my point.

They obviously *don't* suspect a terrorist attack mounted by foreigners.

What the hell *are* they up to?

Is J. Edgar back from the dead, pushing his own agenda again?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 03:25 AM

If that was your point Clint then they would still have a list of where people said the were going to stay which would be compared to a list of who was actually staying there.

Combine that to finger prints and photographs. If "tourist" X isn't where he says he is going to be staying and doesn't turn up at any other hotel, guest house, whatever, do the rounds of hospitals (he may have been taken ill, or involved in an accident). Do the rounds of vehicle rental agencies just in case he has rented an RV, you still stand a good chance of tracing who you want to find, even if the explanation is totally innocuous. The one you cannot trace, you have a recent photograph of and index finger prints, plus the knowledge that he is probably getting assistance from someone already "in-place".

If you are already at a high alert state, law enforcement and the general public should be more aware. Kevin has always contended that to mount terrorist operations requires little in terms of finance, training, reconnaissance, resources and support. I have always disagreed with that. The measures recently introduced make it more difficult for terrorists based abroad to enter the US and carry-out attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 03:44 AM

"If "tourist" X isn't where he says he is going to be staying and doesn't turn up at any other hotel, guest house, whatever..."

They don't HAVE a list of guests of the "other hotels, guest houses, whatever." Just the major hotels. All but one, that is; they couldn't even get complete informatiion on that small group. Damn poor database.

Sheesh.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: sledge
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 03:56 AM

The perception that I have from the UK is that,given that the US border patrol/coast guard have a hard time preventing illegal immigration, any terrorist with a modicum of determination could enter the US and probably find enough material to make mischief with.

The IRA were while under great pressure able to carry out a very effctive campaign on the mainland for many years without access to huge resources.

Sledge.

Subject: RE: BS: New Year's in Las Vegas and Civil Rights
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 04:51 AM

US border patrol/coast guard have a hard time preventing illegal immigration good point, sledge and now, bush is going to encourage even more such illegal immigration when he announces a new amnesty program for those already working in the US.