Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?

Subject: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 01:46 PM

Today is Carl Sandburg's birthday. Happy birthday, Carl.
Was Carl the first "pro" folk singer when he started touring with his guitar and songs and poems?
In any event, Carl was the first folk singer that I ever heard in person, when late in life he came to our high school to sing and recite (in '58, I think). Great voice - I think his favorite song was Sam Hall, maybe because he got to say "god damn" in public.
Let's not forget him.
Chris in Wheaton

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 01:54 PM

I have an old copy of Carl Songbird's Sandbag!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 02:36 PM

I am inclined to say that it would be too big a claim to label Sandburg the first "professional" folksinger. Partly because, without researching any names, common sense says that many people had folk music as their main profession long before Sandburg. Whatever he was, he was an American treasure.

SRS

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 02:36 PM

I believe that Sandburg's folksong performances began as a kind of second set to his poetry readings on college campuses. Was just thinking the other day that he may have been the first U.S. singer of folksongs - untrained - to become known for doing so at intellectual and cultural venues. I guess you'd call him "semiprofessional." "The American Songbag" appeared in '27, after he'd been performing for a few years. Oddly, "Sam Hall" isn't in it!

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 02:43 PM

Very influential bloke. Since "folksinger" has come to mean,to some people, something along the lines of"person with guitar who sings old folksongs but is not actually from the original class of people who made up the sings": well, Carl Sandberg is probably the person who started off the kind of activity that eventually lead to the defintion. Obviously there were plenty of folk before him making a living from folk-music,for centuries(millennia?).

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 09:12 PM

Sandburg was the first to open up the college circuit. He was playing for audiences who viewed this music through class colored glasses.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 09:23 PM

I, too, have a hardcover of the 1927 edition of The American Songbag. I found it in a used bookstore and love it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 09:26 PM

Here's to ya, Carl.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:38 PM

Carl Sandburg is the earliest of the "well known folk singers" that comes to mind but I need to think this through some more.

I've got a re'release of one of his vinyl recordings and the Songbag. He certainly was one of my favorite sources, along with John and Alan Lomax and Frank Warner.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 12:56 AM

His old LP has been re-reeleased on CD. Available at CAMSCO, of course.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 01:31 AM

At a flea market I once found a copy of Carl Sandburg's American Songbag on 78 RPM Records. It was a whole set of records with Sandburg singing and accompanying himself on guitar. It probably went along with that 1927 edition you have Mick. I paid one whole dollar for it.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 01:38 AM

What a treasure, buddy.

I hope all is well in Guam. We need to sing together again.

Mick

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 09:22 AM

Chris in Wheaton said (in part ):

"Great voice" - !!!!!!!!

That can be understood in two ways.

First, he had essentially no singing voice, as we usually think of singers.

But second, and really more important, he had a voice which was uniquely Carl Sandburg, and he had an idea of how to treat a song in his own way,
sort of "Old Uncle Carl on the front porch". His guitar playing was sort of the same: Essentially not an instrumentalist, VERY limited, but could and did play (when he did) just enough to help with the rhythm, and to give a sense of NOT being UNaccompanied. No pretensions whatever, but a real feeling of authenticity, in my view.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 10:23 AM

Hey, Brett, you can double your money--I'll give you $2 for it, even pay the postage from Guam!

SRS

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 06:47 PM

Well, OK Sagey, if you'll also cover storage for the last 6 years or so. Let's see that drive the price up to... oh my!, I guess you wouldn't be interested.

Hey Mick, any time you want a tropical vacation I got a spare bedroom and all the heat you want to soak up. We can get together with the Pago Bay Reefers and share songs into the wee hours. All you have to do is pay for that 24 hour plane ride.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 12:17 AM

Brett,

I paid storage on a lot of stuff for many years--I know how that can inflate the price. But if we prorate out the space the LPs occupied in the locker, I'm sure that makes them much more affordable! (I got tired of paying for storage, so when I built a new garage at the house I just moved into I had them put in joists and flooring for a storage attic!)

;-D

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 05:55 AM

I think if you care to look at English Irish or European history you will many folk singers who pre-date Carl by several centuries, first folk singer indeed !

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 08:58 AM

Sandburg's Martin guitar and some interesting associated papers--some handwritten poems and set lists, I think-- were for sale at Mandolin Brothers a year or two back. They were asking $36k due to the historical significance...wonder what they eventually went for.

W-O

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 08:46 AM

A co-worker asked me if Sandburg had any connection with Woody Guthrie. Anbody know if the two met?

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:04 AM

If they met it's not mentioned in either Joe Klein's "Woody Guthrie a Life" or in Elizabeth Partridge's "This Land Was Made For You and Me".

The experimental dance "Folksay" that led to Woody and Marjorie meeting was based on a Carl Sandburg poem, "The People, Yes". Klein refers to Sandburg as one on Woody's literary heros.
- Phil

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:31 AM

TY Phil.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:11 PM

One of the first books of folk songs I bought way back was Carl Sandburg's The American Songbag. Bought it new in a bookstore. This was about 1952 or so. But the book has been republished and is still available. CLICKY #1.

There is another book about Carl Sandburg that is really fascinating. I didn't know about it until Bob Nelson (Deckman) gave me a copy. It's Old Troubadour, by Gregory d'Alessio.   CLICKY #2.

Greg d'Alessio was an artist, cartoonist, and a member of the New York Classic Guitar Society. Sandburg used to stay with d'Alessio when he came to New York, and there would be gatherings at d'Alessio's apartment of people like Sandburg, Andrés Segovia, Brazilian singer-guitarist Olga Coelho, and others—including Marilyn Monroe (who thought Sandberg was a real cutey-pie). Lots of photos, plus a few of d'Alessio's cartoons, and many great stories about Sandburg.

One of the photos shows Sandburg singing and playing a weird old bell-shaped guitar with Segovia sitting beside him on the sofa, reaching over and trying to tune one of Sandburg's strings. Another shows Sandburg playing a guitar he owned, which I recognized as a flamenco guitar (complete with push-peg tuners) made by Domingo Esteso. I recognized it because it looked exactly like the Esteso flamenco I'd bought from a fellow who had brought it back from Madrid. Most photos you usually see of him show him with his Martin classic, but he apparently owned several guitars.

First folk singer? No. Predated by several centuries at least, probably a millenium or two. But he was certainly a powerful influence early on. During is poetry readings, more often than not at colleges and universities, he would often say, "That reminds me of a song." At which point, he would go backstage and emerge a few seconds later with his guitar, and the poetry reading would turn into a folk concert. This was back in the 19040s and 50s.

Many decades back, Life Magazine, in it's "Photo of the Week," printed a picture of Carl Sandburg sitting with his feet propped up on his desk, a cat in his lap, and his glasses up on his forehead. The caption quoted Sandburg as saying that he had come up with an "Eleventh Commandment," which, if people obeyed, would render the previous Ten Commandments redundant:   "Thou shalt not commit nincompoopery!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 04:07 PM

Coming on Monday, Sept. 24, 2012, on PBS: American Masters - The Day Carl Sandburg Died. It will be available online after that, but there are numerous text, audio, and video supporting materials (including a trailer) at that link.

I'm looking forward to it.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 05:25 PM

Thanks, Becky! I just commented in another thread that I've ordered a used (1927) copy of Songbag. I think my Dad had a taped radio interview with Sandburg (reel-to-reel era) and I'm sure he had some albums, or had copies on cassettes.

SRS

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 05:44 PM

> many people had folk music as their main profession long before Sandburg.

Eight years have passed and nobody has named a single one of these supposed people.

I doubt that anybody in the English-speaking world before Sandburg did quite what he did: traveled around the country singing folk- and folklike songs, a fair number of which he'd learned orally, in his own relaxed way and with his own guitar, to sophisticated, urban audiences for whom the songs were almost wholly novel. He did not sing in the manner or persona of a trained vocalist.

Sandburg wasn't much like a medieval minstrel, either, because the minstrels composed songs of their own (he didn't), made their living from them (he didn't), and apparently made no distinction between "folk" songs and any other kind (he mostly did). The minstrels' audiences likewise could have made no distinction, but Sandburg's presentations must actually have encouraged his audiences to distinguish in the future.

Sandburg was obviously not the "first folksinger" in a strict sense, but he certainly seems to have been the "first folkie."

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: blinddrunkal
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 12:27 PM

don't know about that but I have an old vinyl LP called "Carl Sandburg Sinks America" which I trust is a misprint!

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 02:44 PM

Nobody did that before either.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 03:08 PM

Didn't he write "A horse named Bill"?

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 03:15 PM

He learned it from novelist Sinclair Lewis ("Red Lewis of Sauk Center, Minnesota") who is said to have learned it from two other people.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: musicmick
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 03:40 PM

Carl Sandburg's contribution was that he was a famous poet whose reknown brought traditional songs to a wider audience than before. He was a collecter and an intertpreter and deserves all of our thanks.
He was, also, a ervant activist who championed the work of his brother-in-law, Edward Steichen, writing a beatiful introduction to the Humanistic photo collection "Family of Man".

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 08:14 PM

I think Carl Sandburg hold up pretty well. There were the Lomaxes, John and his son Alan, but they were more collectors than singers. There was a revival in the 1920s of people singing traditional sea shanties but none rose to the stature of Sandburg.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,from Tokyo
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:54 PM

American Masters - The Day Carl Sandburg Died.

I would like to see the film.

Kiyohide

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 08:04 AM

I think it's remarkable that, though admittedly Sandburg's musical life is dwarfed by all his poetic and historian's achievements, no one has thought to write a biography of him as a songster and collector of folksongs. Yet among all else, he is one of the fundamental figures in the folksong field.

Sandburg was there early (along with Dorothy Scarborough, John Lomax and a very few others), recognizing the value of the songs he heard while doing Midwest farm labor, living small town life and hobnobbing with friends high and low, and bringing them to audiences with his brooding vocals that were like murmured conversation. There was no "folksong context" then. To some in his audiences some of his songs may have been old familiar memories ... to others they must have come as if from another planet.

To reevoke his sources, his musical experiences and the influence of The American Songbag from 1927 onward—when later collectors were still shedding their milkteeth—would be to re-present the earliest history of what became the folk revival.

I'd be tickled to read such a biography. Anyone volunteer to write it?

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: cetmst
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:17 AM

Three books by daughter Helga Sandburg:
Sweet Music, A Book of Family Reminiscence and Song, 1963
A Great and Glorious Romance: The Story of Carl Sandburg and Lilian Steichen
Where Love Begins: A Portrait of Carl Sandburg, His Family As Seen Through the Eyes of His Youngest Daughter
Some biographical information and family history. Have only read the first but reviews indicate they focus mainly on the family and only peripherally on the development of The American Songbag and the New American Songbag.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 02:32 PM

Once again, tonight, Monday, Sept. 24, 2012, on PBS: American Masters - The Day Carl Sandburg Died. It will be available online after that, but there are numerous text, audio, and video supporting materials (including a trailer) at that link. They don't have a blurb for the biographical film itself, but this is the blurb for the web pages:

It's the life and times of Carl Sandburg on the AM website: Watch the film starting Sept. 24 on PBS; see extended video interviews with the likes of Pete Seeger and the late and great Studs Terkel; hear Sandburg perform and sing in video and audio web features; read curated selections of his writing; plus more–Sandburg's words and world visualized in a series of digital posters, essays, and a photo exploration of the Sandburg archives.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 02:37 PM

Whoops, here it is on the page of the film's trailer:

The Day Carl Sandburg Died | A film from Paul Bonesteel
Premiers Monday, Sept. 24, at 10 p.m. (ET) on PBS (check local listings)

Carl Sandburg was, as he said it, "The Eternal Hobo."

For much of the 20th century, Sandburg was synonymous with the American experience, a spokesman on behalf of the people. One of the most successful writers in the English language, Sandburg was a three-time Pulitzer Prize-winner for his poetry (Cornhuskers, 1918, and Complete Poems, 1950) as well as part of his six-volume Lincoln biography (Abraham Lincoln: The War Years, 1939). He was also a groundbreaking journalist, folk song collector, children's storyteller, political organizer and activist, novelist, biographer, and captivating performer. Yet, after his death, Sandburg's literary legacy faded and his poems, once taught in schools across America, were dismissed under the weight of massive critical attack.

The Day Carl Sandburg Died features original interviews with Sandburg's daughter Helga Sandburg Crile, his grandson John Carl Steichen, as well as Pete Seeger, the late and great Studs Terkel and Norman Corwin, poets including Ted Kooser, Marc Kelly Smith and Yevgeny Yevtushenko, Grammy-winning musician Dan Zanes, Sandburg biographer Penelope Niven, Ph.D., and notable scholars share stories about Sandburg and reflect on the modern relevance of his vast body of work, including Chicago Poems (1916), The American Songbag (1927), and The People, Yes (1936).

The Day Carl Sandburg Died finds Sandburg's life story and creative legacy as relevant and provocative today as it was in 1916 when Chicago Poems changed American writing.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 02:39 PM

> brooding vocals that were like murmured conversation.

Well said. Others were wry and understated, or wry and ironic.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 02:44 PM

Here is the filmmaker's website for the film: The Day Carl Sandburg Died.

DVDs are available from PBS.

~ B in T

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 03:18 PM

I read somewhere that Carl Sandburg was the first to employ the Americanized
term "folk singer". There is German antecedents.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 03:59 PM

In 20th Century America, Sandburg along with Bascom Lamar Lunsford
and John Jacob Niles were collecting and singing traditional material.

Sandburg recorded 6 sides for RCA Victor in 1926 (only 2 published),
an album for MUSICRAFT in 1937, DECCA in 1943 and other folk albums over the years.

Lunsford was recorded by Frank C Brown on wax cylinder recordings in 1922, and made 78's from 1924 for OK, later for Brunswick and the Library of Congress. In 1929 Carl Fisher published his "30 and 1 Folk Songs From the Southern Mountains."

Niles published his first music collections, Impressions of a Negro Camp Meeting (1925) and Seven Kentucky Mountain Songs (1928).
He recorded 78's for RCA Victor starting in 1938.

Best wishes, Thomas.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 04:14 PM

J. J. Niles: midway perhaps between professional minstrel and folkie.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 04:15 PM

Although Sandburg's wikipedia page says he was probably the first "folk singer" who knew he was a "folk singer", there were recordings of people like the Carter Family in the late 20s & thru the 40s. They just weren't aware they were 'folk'.....


and Richard Dyer-Bennett was singing in clubs in the 40s as part of the "folk scene" which hadn't even been named at the time.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 05:40 PM

Bill D-

Richard Dyer-Bennet (only one "t" please) presented himself as a "folk troubadour."

Sandburg was certainly a 1st generation folk music artist, and in my opinion a fine poet. I wonder what "new wave" of poet critics "dismissed" his works and who values their opinions now.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 06:34 PM

Charley, it takes me back to my teaching days....

Many critics thought Sandburg was the cat's pajamas in 1916, when "Chicago" was published.

A generation later his trademark bold, informal style had been widely copied, making it seem trite (unfairly), and his studied folksiness was starting to annoy readers brought up on showy intellectuals like T.S. Eliot. Sandburg could be an effective poet of "mood," but compared with "The Wasteland" his work never showed much intellectual depth or aesthetic sensitivity. (Hey, don't shoot the messnger; I'm just telling you what they thought.)

By the '50s he was an "establishment" figure, always the kiss of death for a poet's critical reputation. His interests were no longer those of the critical establishment, which had become much more demanding and analytical. To them Sandburg was at best a second-rate Whitman.   

However, I don't believe Sandburg's poems *or* his biography of Lincoln have ever been out of print. They just keep on selling.

It's very hard to write a good poem and it's almost impossible to write a great one. Sandburg wrote some very good poems, and one great one. The bad ones shouldn't count. Particularly when personal tastes play such a big role.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,from Tokyo
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 08:59 PM

today i saw the film- the day carl sandburg died (pbs)-
at downtown tokyo near sumida-river by i-phone.

thanks

kiyohide kunizaki

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 09:07 PM

It was good.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 11:59 PM

When Sandburg performed, he was not billed as a "folksinger," but rather as a "recitalist."

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 04:46 AM

It seems that by pedantic UK parlance he would have been a folksong singer. Some of those from whom he learned his songs might have been folksingers. I'd never heard of him.

Brasser Copper (who technically undoubtedly was a folksinger) was born in 1845, so it seems very unlikely that even if Sandburg was a folksinger he was the first - indeed the essence of folk song makes it pretty well impossible, if songs like the Cutty Wren can be dated to the 14th century.

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 06:40 AM

"The cruelest thing that has happened to Lincoln since he was shot by Booth was to fall into the hands of Carl Sandburg." -Edmund Wilson (1875-1972)

Subject: RE: Carl Sandburg - First Folk Singer?
From: Joe_F
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 10:14 PM

_The Great Carl Sandburg_ is one of my favorite records. It is one of the enduring regrets of my life that I never had a chance to get drunk with him.