BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers

Subject: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 12:14 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1114806,00.html

Strangely satisfying.

---
Brazil takes prints from US tourists

AP in Sao Paolo
Friday January 2, 2004
The Guardian

Police began fingerprinting and photographing American tourists arriving at Sao Paolo's international airport yesterday in compliance with a judge's order to match the treatment Brazilians will get when they enter the United States.

Julier Sebastiao da Silva, a federal judge in Mato Grosso state, ordered the move on Monday in response to new regulations requiring citizens from 27 countries, including Brazil, to be fingerprinted and photographed on entering the US as an anti-terrorism measure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 01:56 AM

Good for Brazil. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 04:23 AM

Good on 'em!.....The British are now going to have to pay £60 for a visa to visit the USA or pay for one of the new fancy passports which will cost rather alot. My passport runs out in 3 years time so Im stuck as to what to do. Pay for a visa or pay for a new passport what has your fingers prints regestered on it...either way it costs alot!

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 07:25 AM

As I understand it the current passports are OK, and no visas are required - but if you needed a new passport, it'd have to have the fingerprint stuff - and they aren't available yet, so if your passport has run out you'd need a visa. By the time catsPHiddle's passport needs renewing the upgraded ones should be available. They say...

However, given that carrying a guidebook is likely to be seen as suspicious behaviour by the police, on the advice of the FBI (see this thread), perhaps it might be as well not to go to the States as a tourist for the time being; even if the collapse in the value of the dollar means it's relatively cheap these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: mack/misophist
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 09:17 AM

As an American, all I can say is Hurray for Brazil!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 02:47 PM

fine...I don't care either way. It does sound to me like "cutting off your nose to spite your face", though. Adding to the procedures just to make a point may be counter-productive for Brazil.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 02:52 PM

I wonder if the various governments will be trading the prints they collect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 03:21 PM

Those who enjoy this thread will also enjoy this picture of an American arriving in Brazil I have already posted on another thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 03:58 PM

"Dokument nicht gefunden" - but with a little adjustment, here he is

Ican't see why this should be assumed to be a reprisal against the USA, rather than a fairly logical precautionary measure. In the light of Timothy McVeigh, I would have thought that seeing Americans as falling in the potentially high-threat category doesn't seem that unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 03:59 PM

Wolfgang, couldn't find the picture you mentioned in your post. Can you try again, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 05:00 PM

Click on it in my post, pdc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 06:41 PM

Why are they in a shower room? And who chose the tile? My gawd! I will clash with whatever I wear. The female cop looked kinda cute though. (It gets lonely in the Canadian north. The guy don't look good--yet!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 03:11 PM

I got a 404 on that page, McGrath, it said:

Dokument nicht gefunden

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 03:34 PM

That's what you'd have got on Wolfgang's link, but mine seems OK, Any way, here's the link as a URL http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,grossbild-319590-280856,00.html. One way or anothere it should get you to the page:

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 04:53 PM

Why shouldn't they? I see nothing wrong with it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 05:22 PM

I recall reading somewhere that the Americans won't have biometric passsports ready for their own deadline. No doubt Bush's poodle will fail to reciprocate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 05:27 PM

"I wonder if the various governments will be trading the prints they collect"

Hey Boys and Girls!! COLLECT THE WHOLE SET!! Suspected Terrorist Fingerprint Trading Cards!!! Now at an FBI Regional Office Near You!

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 05:29 PM

Since 9-11 this sort of thing is not that unexpected, but it does draw our attention - ahem - to all the redtape visitors/immigrants encounter when overseas.

There is so much redtape that a nonEnglish speaking immigrant can and does often get the job instead of a English educated applicant. We here in the US have our heads firmly shoved up the liberal ahem ....

Time of change ! I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 05:42 PM

I'd like all passports to include fingerprints...or perhaps retinal photo id...

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 07:20 PM

But all it proves is that the document you present has your fingerprints etc on it. Unless they are going to check all passport fingerprints against a data base containing the guys fingerprints,and identifying him/her as somoene else, what real good does this do? All right, once someone has been picked out as suspicious,maybe, but at that point the game is lost anyway.

It'll make it marginally harder to forge passports, but not very much. Any reasonably well organised set of terrorists ought to be able to do it standing on their head.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 12:00 AM

Jeeze, Kevin, you ever considered volunteering or offering your services to the Intelligence Services of Great Britain for pay? Amazing they have been able to operate without your expertise. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 09:01 AM

What I most object to is the fact that the US wants to hold a database of the citizens of other countries, without there being reciprocity - other countries aren't being offerered a database of American passport-holders' information. Surely what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 09:16 AM

I think it's those kind of considerations, Doug, that have been the reason they haven't got round to doing that stuff up till now. But when Washington insists on it, no use saying it's a bit pointless, you just have to fall in line.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 11:13 AM

"But when Washington insists on it, no use saying it's a bit pointless, you just have to fall in line." says McGrath of Harlow.

Surely this is what empires have thought throughout history - and it's what has made empires fall throughout history.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 04:02 PM

MGOH,

Unless they do check there is absolutely no point in doing it. With the data bases set up checks would only take seconds, allowing for a procedure that sends ahead official data matched up to passenger lists. Photographs of the passport holder would be available at the destination before the aircraft has cleared ATC at point of departure.

You also seem to have changed your tune with regard to the amount of support, equipment and training your well organised terrorists would have to have.

Sooner the UK gets compulsory ID cards the better IMO. Used effectively these measures (i.e. ID; Photo; fingerprints; DNA; retinal scans) make identity fraud impossible.

Funny how some Americans applaud the move on the part of Brazil and condemn the same move by their own government - as someone above said what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 04:10 PM

"or perhaps retinal photo id..."

Give me DNA Id. as well please!

One day I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 04:25 PM

Why don't we all stay in our own countries, and send all foreigners back to their countries. That's the way it all seems to be heading, why should we be forced to carry ID cards because of the misdemeanours of others, other peoples abuse of the system has led to the restriction of our liberties.
Whoever said, Life,Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, must be spinninging his grave.
Rant rant.....John

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 04:34 PM

"Unless they do check there is absolutely no point in doing it." Well, we're agreed on that. If they do have the people involved identified and on data bases they can instantly scan, that makes sense. I'm just doubtful if they actually are going to have that kind of ability in practice.

Even ifvthey have, all that wold acheve would be to allow them to say "This person is not on our list of suspected foreign terrorists", which doesn't actually get very far. It's something, but it's not a big something.

Obviously I'm not against measures that would reduce the danger of bombs on aeroplanes and that kind of stuff. But I am suspicious about what seem to be PR exercises which don't actually significantly reduce the danger, but are used as an excuse for not doing things that need to be done, in order to achieve that end.

"You also seem to have changed your tune with regard to the amount of support, equipment and training your well organised terrorists would have to have."

Not really - my point on that issue was that there is no reason to assume that the scale of resources required to carry out a campaign of organised violence is so great that only a national government could provide them. Just for example, there are plenty of wealthy individuals whose fortunes would be quite sufficient. That's where Osama Bin Laden fits in the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 05:02 PM

Sorry Guest 04:25 was me.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 11:16 AM

What it could do if employed correctly Kevin is catch someone who is not who they say they are. Works like this I go and get my new passport have my fingerprints taken, recent photograph, plus what ever other measure you want to include on it but retinal scan information is the best. That information is all stored away in a database at the Passport Office, or where ever.

Now for whatever reason somebody steals my new passport and doctors it. Then buys an airline ticket in my name and travels on my passport. The passenger manifest has been transmitted ahead with electronic files covering all passenger information. For arguements sake this guy is travelling to the US. On receipt of the manifest US Immigration request photographs and fingerprint data for verification. As each of the passengers files through and hands over their passport the guy behind the desk calls up my photo from the UK passport office - it won't match and the fingerprints won't match - Now the US Immigration Service might not know this guy, he might not be on any data base as a known felon or terrorist - but they do know that he is up to no good and they do have him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 02:39 AM

I agree, Teribus, that it will be successful against that kind of passport theft. But if I steal someone's identity and get a valid passport issued under that name, it won't detect me. (The mathematics are against detecting identify theft from a population of, say, 50,000,000 - too many false positives would make such a system very difficult to get working reliably.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 04:35 PM

Actually if one were to set out to get hold of false passports, the logical place to do that might be a large country where all kinds of different looking people live, and where very few people actually do hold passports already. Ideally the USA.

I'm not denying that what you say there, Teribus, is true, and that these procedures could close-off some ways of cheating the system. They might even reduce the danger of having someone steal our passports, if it becomes difficulty or even impossible to use them.

But the real danger is from people who will not be identified by these kind of security systems, because they won't be on the list. Any sense of security because these kind of checks are in place would be a false sense of security, and a potentially dangerous sense of security.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 15 Jan 04 - 02:45 PM

If American security is so bloody secure how does a Sudanese get through Dulles airport with a pocket full of bullets!

Or does security only count on the way in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST,Lolo
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 12:43 PM

it is a good protocol from Brasil (not Brazil you ignorant Americans)

Screw you

Bye

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 01:51 PM

Lolo:

It may have escaped your attention that there are diferent ways to spell words in Portuguese and English.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 01:55 PM

Now Amos - Lolo was kind enough to revive this thread after 95 days to gratuitously insult the US citizens on this forum. Let's not be inhospitable

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 02:44 PM

I thought

"Screw you      
Bye"

Was quite elegant in its way. Sort of balanced.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:16 PM

Now I imagine we'll have to stand in line to be insulted by citizens of España, Deutschland, Italia and just about every other country in the world whose accepted English name or spelling isn't the same as what it is in their own language.

Anyway, it's not the arrogant Americans who decided to spell "Brazil" with a "z". It was those snooty British.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:30 PM

I don't know why - it used to be Brasil in English too. I imagine some printer some time ran out of "S" and had a spare "Z".

Of course, for Brazil it wouldn't be the USA at fault here, it'd be the EUA.

Subject: RE: BS: Brazil fingerprints US travellers
From: Strick
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:01 PM

"Good for Brazil. Barry"

I thought that said it all.