In praise of music

Subject: In praise of music
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 04:06 PM

How about a thread that praises music for how it makes us feel? Of course I'll start.

"The function of music is to free our minds from the tyranny
of consious thought." (Sir Thomas Beecham)

And the most often misquoted one, "Music hath charm to sooth the savage BREAST." (Can't recall the author)

"Rock is to music what graffiti is to literature." (me)

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 05:04 PM

Sorry you think so low of rock music.

There has been much rock music over the years influenced by classical music. i.e: Yes, The Moody Blues.

Personally, I find some graffiti superiorly more interesting then much outdated literature that has been shoved down the throats of students.

You should be strapped in a chair and forced to listen to an electric guitar for 12 straight hours.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 05:19 PM

That "Music hath charms" quote is from some young English playwright: Uhh, Wiggle-lance, or something like that.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 05:23 PM

Martin:

You and Teribus, too! Why do you cultivate crude, dull, beefy, heavy handed rudeness rather than discrimination and quickness of wit? What makes it preferable?

Returning to the spirit of the thread -- I have often felt that alife without music is only part of a life.



A

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 05:24 PM

From "Almost Famous"

"... I dig music...."

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 05:34 PM

The Guitarist Tunes Up

With what attentive courtesy he bent
Over his instrument;
Not as a lordly conquerer who could
Command both wire and wood,
But as a man with a loved woman might,
Inquiring with delight
What slight essential things she had to say
Before they started, he and she, to play.

                         Francis Cornford (1886-1960)

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Ed.
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 05:46 PM

Well said, Kendall.

You do yourself no favours by criticising 'Rock' or 'Rap' though. They mean as much to many people as your music does to you.

"Don't criticise what you can't understand"

Who said that?

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 05:51 PM

Amos

Because it upsets you? Calling me crude should be about as OK as calling you a snob.

What spirit of the thread?

I think the comparison this guy made of rock music to music grafiti/literature is basically ridiculous and totally snobby and completely uniformed. Excuse me for saying so.

I like rock music. Not all of it, but some of it. Again, excuse me for making a comments tongue in cheek that obviously got your undies in a bunch.

I don't know who Teribus is. Is he related to you or someone you jam with? Hey, that's kind of a quickness of wit!

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Willa
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 06:42 PM

'Art thou troubled? Music will calm thee' Handel
'If music be the food of love, play on' Wiggle-lance again!

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 07:30 PM

" It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing" Count Basie, I believe.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 07:33 PM

I simply stated an opinion. No one has a right to tell me my opinion is wrong. If I had said it as a fact, that would be wrong. Everything is relative; to a germ, good health is a type of disease.

I recently had a dust up with a friend who lives to play the Saxophone. To me, it sounds like a giant Kazoo. Well, she went nuts, insisted I was wrong etc. Now, if I had said the sax was not a musical instrument, that would be wrong, but an opinion is never wrong.Tell me you disagree, but don't stick your neck out by telling me I'm wrong.

There is a TV program called "Myth Busters". It is very interesting, but I can't watch it because the background is loud twanging and pounding.That is rock to me. Live with it.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 07:40 PM

Sorry for flying off the handle, there, it wasn't because you expressed you affection for rock music. I like some rock music. too. But you don't get any points for proposing other-worldly tortures for one of my favorite folk singers, Kendall Morse, on a folk thread. Your suggestion was crude. Teribus is another poster in these parts who speaks crudely sometimes and feels it is perfectly okay to level insults at people.

As for "what spirit of the thread", I suggest you look at Kendalls original post on the matter... "a thread that praises music for how it makes us feel? ".

Anyway, sorry for the temper.

A

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 08:21 PM

If I were the "mean" type, I'd say something like, "If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp."

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Kay Stella
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 08:53 PM

Why do nice threads like this have to be disrupted by the likes of Martin Gibson, a consummate asshole if there ever was one. His preference for grafitti no doubt is a reflection of his reading ability. Electric instruments are not used only for rock and roll, but he is clueless on that. And to which cheek exactly were you applying your tongue, Martin?

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 09:05 PM

I listened - and watched- in astonishment last week to Saturday Night Live's featured "band". It was called 'Black Crow' and it was - well, it didn't 'speak' to me. It was rap, I suppose, but who knows. It was acrobatic (one guy was very athletic) but I never did figure out what the song was about. I did hear something like 'shake that thang'. Perhaps someone would like to defend it? Man. Am I out of it.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 09:06 PM

Kay Stella

Cross your legs, please. Your breath is killing me. You are a true phony, and made up of the absolute cheapest of firewood guitars.

Amos, no problem. I personally don't know Kendall like you do and he may be one of your favorite folksingers, but it really annoys me when someone makes a narrow statement like the graffiti rock thing. And Kendall, giving my opinion to counter yours doesn't necessarily mean I am saying you are wrong. It might mean that I think very little of it, but it doesn't mean I think it's wrong.

Talk about over-reacting, I hardly think my suggestion is torturously other worldly. No more than I would find listening to Bob Dylan sing while strapped to a chair for 12 hours.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 09:32 PM

I can't speak for others,but the natural music of the Wood Thrush and the Meadowlark Touches my soul. Guess I want to put in a pitch for Mother Natures' music makers. Add whales and wolves to the choir as well.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 09:33 PM

GUEST Martin Gibson said, in part:

"I think the comparison this guy made of rock music to music grafiti/literature is basically ridiculous and totally snobby and completely uniformed. Excuse me for saying so."

Lighten up fer Crissakes, Martin Gibson! It's a joke! As well as a fair statement of what some people feel.   

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 10:58 PM

I also like to hear the musical call of the little screech owl at night. A bit of wildness in my my urban neighborhood that helps soothe this eagles' ruffled feathers!

WHOO, WHOO, whoo, WHOO, Whoo cooks for you ALL?

Anyone else have any praises for music they enjoy?

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 11:12 PM

Music, to me, is not not an elective- it's an essential part of life. If I couldn't make it, I'd still make sure I had it. If I should eventually go deaf, I'm sure I'll still listen to it in my head.

I've told the story before somewhere. Some years back I used to go to an open mike where I'd listen to the music and in the course of the evening drink three glasses of wine and then float home up the hill. I thought the floating feeling was due to the wine.

Then one night it was so crowded I had no chance to have as much as a cup of coffee, much less wine, so I just sat there and absorbed the music.

And when the evening was over, I floated up the hill.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 11:42 PM

This may be stretching the thread a bit but...it's a true story

"The Power of Music Over Drugs"

I try to play the piano a bit every day--don't always get to. I'm not making much progress, I'm just trying not to lose the pieces I can play. One of the cats of the household seems to like my music and likes to sit on top of the piano and listen ( as I've mentioned in another thread). Saturday night she was lolling around in the basement in a box with some catnip in it--had some catnip on her fur. But as soon as she heard me start playing the Moonlight Sonata ( I can do the first two movements-------definitely not the 3rd) (she also likes the Vaughan Williams setting of "On Linden Lea") she dragged herself out of her drug-induced stupor, came right up from the basement, jumped on the keyboard (there are always some 20th century chords in the Moonlight when she does this) and took up her accustomed position on top of the piano

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: johnfitz.com
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 11:48 PM

Maybe I'm too old now to take an objective stand. I just spent some time reading the journals my 8th grade English class keeps. I always tell them when your at a loss for what to write about then simply write down one of their favorite songs. Most of what they listen to is pretty sweet stuff--poorly written stuff--but sweet in it's attempt at defining an anger that doesn't want to take any real risks. Many of the poular rap songs are horribly sexist, demeaning and desperate, hence, I guess their allure to the angry, the misunderstood and the marginalized, as well as to the kids in my town, tooling around in their parent's SUV's, begging for college essay help; but still drawn to their own version of "shock and awe." There is music that is always profound--always real--always relevant. When kids ask me what I think of their music I tell them as honestly as possible--often I say it's crap...and someday they'll agree. Cling to what's eternal and don't give credit where none is due. Listen to what you want and take a long hard look at the world. This is all truly pompous wind..and I appreciate greatly appreciate that it exists here on this crazy little website i stumbled upon. Here's my crap.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Ethereal Purple
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 12:35 AM

Guess it's all just a matter of taste... there isn't really *good* or *bad* music. My music taste changes really rapidly... guess it's because I'm growing up... but I don't think it means the music I listen to now is any better than what I used to a couple of years ago. I can't stand a lot of music I used to listen to 5-6 years ago, but that doesn't make it crap. Who knows - I could hate Joan Baez a year from now... right now she's pretty much my favourite. Hmm... but then I can't conceive of hating Joan Baez ever! Point is - music's an essential part of life... whatever music it may be. Music's just music - whether it's rap or rock or folk... or just the *music of nature*. Can't live without it, and I don't think anyone actually can :-).

EP

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 01:57 AM

Drastic thread swing: Walking Eagle, there is a lone wolf holding forth at our main viewing glacier about 10 miles from here. It's black and big and healthy and it sits down at a short distance and howls at people. But when dogs approach it, it does the whole sniff bit with them. (Actually I suspect it's a female.) Many photos have been taken of it; fortunately it's in an area where it's not legal to trap and it's also staying within the no-shoot area.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 11:03 AM

I think there is a spectrum of musicality and certain kinds of rap and rock swing way over to the low end, being hard over on cacophonic blends of sound. Melodiousness, harmonies, resolution of dissonances, a sense of some sort of order are some of the tyhings that go in to musicality.

Emotionally, some kinds of music seem much more focused on rage and destruction than love, hope, or even melancholy -- the major themes in folk music. There are also various grades of subtlety architecturally in music -- some sorts are blatant and ham-handed, and other kinds are woven with a delicacy of balance and interplay.

Now, judging musical pieces, songs and the like overall, I would have to say that a piece that was architecturally hamhanded and blunt, had no subtlety, was cacophonic and raucous, vented destructive emotions, and made no effort toward musicality, why, such apiece of music would be way down toward garbage in my estimation.

Kendall said pretty much the same thing in fewer words. There ARE various criteria for the art. It is true ultimately that goodness and badness are merely opinions, but that doesn't mean there is no way to measure the differences between music and garbage.

A work of art that celebrates human degradation of humans, vicious disdain between men and women, and untrammeled dramatization of testosterone poisoning is not my notion of art that communicates very well.


A

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 11:07 AM

"Nothing is good, or bad. Thinking makes them so." (Shakespere)
So, MG, you have the same opinion of my opinion that I have of yours. This is America.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 11:31 AM

Somewhere in one of Dorothy Sayers' books is a discussion of understanding art (painting). The things she says apply equally well to music, I think. The first step is to expose yourself to a lot of it, both 'good' and 'bad'. Over time, with careful observation, the good will become more readily apparant. And never forget that art is about communication. If it says something hateful but does it well, it's still art.

The greatness of music is that it can take us out of ourselves. It can show us depths of feeling that we were unaware of, that we may even find unwelcome. The weakness of music is that the process is aided immensely by better understanding. A person who plays or sings or has studied instruments/theory has a huge head start over any one who hasn't.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 12:05 PM

The greatness of music is that it can take us out of ourselves. It can show us depths of feeling that we were unaware of, that we may even find unwelcome. The weakness of music is that the process is aided immensely by better understanding. A person who plays or sings or has studied instruments/theory has a huge head start over any one who hasn't.

Well said, mack. The only drawback I've found to studying instruments/theory is that one can get so distracted by the head stuff, the analysis, the "technicalities" of the music it detracts from the appreciation and enjoyment of it. Like not being able to see the forest for the trees.

When I'm focussed on things like "That's a B diminished chord in second inversion" or "Wow, that fiddle player sure needs more resin on his bow ... and hey, where did he ever learn to hold it like THAT!", the emotional imaginative impact of the music gets drowned out somehow. So, the challenge for me is to find that happy medium between "knowing" music, and allowing my mind to relax enough that the music can just "carry me away".

daylia

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 02:59 PM

Dave

Joke? Pretty easy to not see it that way. One of the flaws of this type of communication, for sure.

As far as Kendall quoting Shakespeare, "Nothing is good, or bad. Thinking makes them so." that is so ludicrous. Shakespeare might have written some famous plays, but I hardly think he was known as a philosopher.

Walking Eagle, please pass the peace pipe!

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 03:31 PM

It's there for the taking folks.You have only to show interest, and ease of mind, in wanting it.

Ebbie, sure wish that I live wherever you do.

Back to music. I think that it was Paul Winter that said that he finds that much of nature seems to sing in the key of D. Has anyone noticed that? I can't say that I can tell that much.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 03:42 PM

Twice the Shakespeare line has been given above as:

"Nothing is good, or bad. Thinking makes them so."

Not quite accurate, and I think does not give quite the sense of the original, which is:

There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
       Hamlet, Act II, scene ii.

The word "but" may be understood as "except". This is a statement of what is now called relativism. Perfectly good (I think) philosophy, whether you happen to agree with it or not.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 04:25 PM

Carlos Santana has some very interesting and often strange views of life, and is completely tuned in to some radical New Age philosophies, but I remember hearing some interview with him awhile back, and this quote stuck in my head. "Any time a person listens to music, it re-arranges their molecular structure." I think there must might be something to that.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 04:30 PM

How much do you really have to think about something like 9/11 to come to the conclusion it was bad. A nanosecond, maybe.

Knowing what's "good or bad" or "right or wrong" hardly needs any philosophy by Shakespeare.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: SmilingMusician
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 04:39 PM

"I think that it was Paul Winter that said that he finds that much of nature seems to sing in the key of D. Has anyone noticed that? I can't say that I can tell that much. "

Actually, scientists are thinking that nature sings in Bb. Recently there was an extremely low frequency discovered in deep space that oscillated on the pitch we call Bb, but about 17 octaves below the range of human hearing. Also, I remember in college discovering that all flourescent lights buzz on a Bb. Check it out.

The way this was discovered by me and the choir I was singing in is another story that doesn't need detailing here.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 04:49 PM

If it's in Bb, please pass me my capo.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 05:29 PM

We think it's bad; Al-Qaeda members think it's good. Thinking makes it "good" or "bad".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 05:32 PM

Or, to put it another way, goodness and badness are not inherent in the object, but lie in the perception.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 05:44 PM

Martin:

It is possible that if you saw yourself as a long-oppressed Arab -- say, a Palestinian -- and believed that the West was populated by heathen idolators of monstrous and ungodly habits, you would think 9-11 was a good thing!

I don't see it that way, of course, and neither do you-- but thinking makes it so.

A

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 05:49 PM

Many perceptions are hardly thought provoking. Screeching fingernails on a blackboard does not require any thought to be annoying, even by Al-Qaeda.

We as humans have the ability to think. But human nature says we don't always have to when we react.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 05:55 PM

Guest 4:25, that's great. "Any time a person listens to music, it re-arranges their molecular structure" I'm not really into "New Age philosophies" although I guess I came up with some ideas myself, but that is really what I was implying when I said that I "floated up the hill." I do believe that we, as a society, don't yet understand the mystery.

SmilingMusician (great name!), I've also read somewhere that in a group of unrelated people, more singers can sing comfortably in the key of Bb. Interesting, eh?

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 08:15 PM

MB, I stand by my statement, and I will give you an example that you can understand. If a friend of yours says "You friggin' asshole" more than likely you will take it in good humor. However, if a stranger says exactly the same thing, you will be offended. Why? How do you decide how you are going to react?

Now, can we get on with the original theme of this thread?

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 08:21 PM

The man that hath no music in him,
or is not moved by sweet concord of sound
Is fit for treason, strategems and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are as dull as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. (Shakespere)

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 08:56 PM

Talking about music is like dancing about architecture.

Anybody know who said that?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 10:01 PM

--Smiling--

That is interesting information. Like MG says, I'd have to use a capo! Geart thought MG! Bb. I'm trying to think how many songs I know in that key. Not many, I'd venture.

MG, you must play a stinged instrument. What is your favorite song that you like to play? I play Shenandoah when I'm finished practicing. Seems to be a nice ending song for me.

We'll, back to trying to play this 12 monster.

W.E.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 04:53 PM

Ealking Eagle

I play guitar, banjo, and bass and sing. Currently I am the banjoist in a group that can best be described as "swing-grass"

I am blessed with perfect pitch and have never owned a tuner in the 41 years I have been playing. I consider myself a high-energy player who pours a lot of emotion and feeling into what I play, especially what I like.

I really have no one favoite song. I love to play stuff that is high energy bluegrass based, country with a beat, or good old rousing folk-era hand clappin' sing-along good time music.

I usually have a problem with syrupy, maudlin, sensitive boy and his guitar folk ballads. I refuse to ever be a fat, old folksinger.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 05:18 PM

"I am blessed with perfect pitch..."


My condolences.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 06:21 PM

Whatcha got against perfect pitch, Cliun?

daylia

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 07:06 PM

think he was just saying that since so many people DON'T, them as has it have to suffer through a lot of "nearly right" pitches.

A

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 07:13 PM

There is only one sure way to avoid becoming an old fat folksinger; (assuming your are one)That is to die young.

Subject: RE: In praise of music
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 10:02 PM

Amos has it.

Those I have known who have perfect pitch (or claim to) seem to spend a lot of time tuning and trying to get everybody else in tune. And if they watch a performer who isn't tuned to A 440, they can't enjoy the performance.