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Is this song appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw
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Subject: Origins: Is this tune appropriate? From: GUEST,Guest: Stoo Date: 15 Jan 04 - 03:39 PM In the 50's, Arthur Godfrey wrote and performed a novelty tune called "Slap Her Down Again Paw". A typical comedy tune about an errant young lady going against the wishes of her family, romantically that is. Does anyone who is familiar with this tune think it inappropriate to perform in these politically correct times? Thanks for any comments. Stoo |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Is this tune appropriate? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 15 Jan 04 - 03:50 PM Don't let the PCers dictate your songs... Especially not with hits like "Bugger Off", "Fuck Off And Die" and "Cop Killer" out there... Sing the songs ya wanna sing Stoo... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Is this tune appropriate? From: Joybell Date: 15 Jan 04 - 05:39 PM For me it depends on where I'm performing, how I personally feel about a song, and whether I consider it a good song to start with. It's a funny thing but some people are very quick to take offense at the most innocent of songs. Moral outrage is a popular indulgence. I've very rarely had anyone tell me I upset them with a song I've sung. I always give a short introduction before all my songs and it includes noting, if that's appropriate, that the song comes from a time when attitudes were different. It's probably a bit more tricky if you are male and wish to sing a song that supports wife beating. I don't think I'd be brave enough. I sing songs about drunken Victorian fathers but the sympathy is with the victims not the father and that's different. It all depends on your audience and the way you put your songs across. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 15 Jan 04 - 09:14 PM What it comes down to is, "Approprite for what? For whom?" ALWAYS a matter of judgment, and no-one can exercise that for you but you! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: NicoleC Date: 15 Jan 04 - 09:27 PM I guess it also depends on whether or not you feel you can communicate to an audience a sense of being tongue-in-cheek or just lighthearted. One needn't approve of murder to sing a song about it, and so forth. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Rustic Rebel Date: 15 Jan 04 - 09:37 PM Appropriate for what would also be my question. Are you singing to a group of children or adults in a tavern that just act like a group of children? (Ha!) Take a look at a part of this song, I would rather my gal would hit me Than to haul right up and quit me. It ain't nobody's business if I do. I know that she won't call no copper If she gets beat up by her poppa. It ain't nobody's business if I do, Lord no. Well, it ain't nobody's business if I do. I would still sing this, appropriate or not. It's a great tune. Billie Holiday- Ain't nobody's buisness if I do. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Ferrara Date: 15 Jan 04 - 09:44 PM Well, I can tell you, Stoo, I've sung it at Open Sings & parties but mostly I dont sing it because there are so many eyebrows raised. I thought it was a GREAT song when I was 10 years old or so, and so did my family. Actually I still like it a lot. And I remember all the "voices" Godfrey used for the "kinfolks." Well, I sang it this fall and a couple people really liked it so I guess it's not totally unacceptable... just be prepared for the raised eyebrows etc. Rita Ferrara ps thanks to Bill (D) for showing me this thread.... |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jan 04 - 10:22 PM To be be sung in the Ironic Mode. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again From: mg Date: 15 Jan 04 - 11:04 PM I would recommend against it. mg |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Jan 04 - 11:07 PM 1. No, it's NOT politically correct. On the other hand, neither was most of the folk music (60's, USA) I grew up hearing. :~) Not then anyhow. Then it was. Now it's not anymore. Go figure. 2. I'm so lucky-- I play and sing for church every week, and I get to pick all our band's music. To do that I listen to an average of more than 100 songs a week. Out of that I "hear" the necessity for doing an average of 1-10 songs. Out of that group there may be one (or there may not be any) that I simply have to do that week, and I work up the arrangement and any lyric smoothing that day, if possible. I get lost in these, and we just HAVE to do them. If I died "today," THAT would be the song I'd be more than content to die, singing. And song by song, I can say why that is so, for that song, that day, that week. Are you lucky enough to be that particular? Do you have that much to choose from and time to hear it? Is this a song you would be content to die, singing, as your last song? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: johnfitz.com Date: 16 Jan 04 - 01:46 AM Ask your audience. I do some extremely bawdy songs, but I introduce them as such. I don't know the song you are talking about. Some people might think it really funny and relevant. Some might not. If you don't mind pssing people off, and are comfortable with your moral character, then go for it...To thine own self be true |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Jan 04 - 02:25 AM Say, Stoo or Ferrara or somebody, could you post the lyrics for us? thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SLAP HER DOWN AGAIN PA (Arthur Godfrey) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Jan 04 - 02:48 AM SLAP ‘ER DOWN AGIN, PAW Words and music by Polly Arnold, Alice Cornett, & Eddie Asherman As recorded by Arthur Godfrey with the Too Fat Trio, 1948 (YouTube) (Internet Archive)
SPOKEN: Come here, gol-dern you!
CHORUS: Slap her down again, Pa; slap her down again.
Well Pa and Ma were so dern sore, they woke me up one night.
Now poor old Bess got so dern mad she ran away one day
Now Ma and Pa they planned for Bess to marry Deacon Brown
Well, the moral of this story, girls, is don't stay out too late
* * * |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again From: open mike Date: 16 Jan 04 - 03:19 AM perhaps you could sing it at a conference against domestic violence to remind the audience about a topic which might enrage them. Be prepared to duck out the back door fast, though. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Rustic Rebel Date: 16 Jan 04 - 03:45 AM That is a song of the times. It was acceptable to beat on women and children. Damn am I glad times have changed. That almost sounds like it could be a new song title. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: M.Ted Date: 16 Jan 04 - 02:22 PM The song is humorous song! If people can't take a joke--we're all in troubl--I pity the fool who attempts the "Too Fat Polka" without the proper disclaimers-- |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Bill D Date: 16 Jan 04 - 03:47 PM exactly, M.Ted...I cannot imagine how anyone could take it as anything but a silly parody like "I'm My Own GrandPa" (I suppose Homer & Jethro singing "Throw Mama fron the Train" is also non-PC?) |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Joybell Date: 16 Jan 04 - 05:42 PM Oh! so it's about beating a teenager not a wife. I still agree with the idea of singing anything you feel comfortable with. I do see another potential problem with this song though. It's not only about child beating, it's about the behaviour of a group of people - Hillbillies, presumably, or rural families in general. It could be seen as unfair as sung by city folks. I don't think I'd sing it. Having said that I do sing songs about other evil aspects of human behaviour like murder and rape - but not songs that support those acts. Bawdy songs without violence are another matter. We all enjoy sex and we all like rude words. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: GUEST,ClaireBear Date: 16 Jan 04 - 06:05 PM I can't provide an answer to the question, but I would like to offer an anecdote. This song was extremely popular in my house when I was growing up. We were a houseful of well-educated Californians, by the way, and my father was a loved and respected college professor. But when we look back on our childhoods, my brother and I remember an incident, not entirely unlike the one in the song, that actually happened to our sister at our parents' hands. And it horrifies us that we let it happen, even though we were both younger than our sister and probably couldn't have done much to stop it. Would it have made any difference in our parents' behavior -- or in our willingness to tolerate that behavior -- if that song hadn't been an accepted part of the family culture? Maybe not. But although I'll defend anyone's right to sing it, "Slap Her Down Again, Paw" is one song I doubt anyone in my family will ever sing -- or want to hear -- again. Claire |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Bill D Date: 16 Jan 04 - 06:22 PM well...almost all of stupid human behavior is documented in song somewhere--some seriously, some humorously- some condemning, some just documenting.. I suppose that ANY song about rape, beating, murder, decapitation, spouse or child abuse, etc. would bring up uncomfortable feelings in 'somone', but unless it is obvious that the singer is praising or advocating anti-social behavior, I can't let my personal discomfort with a topic lead me to ask someone NOT to document *life* in song........in fact, I would worry if some topics were totally avoided. Figuring out how to do it in reasonable 'good taste' and decent music is another issue. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jan 04 - 06:30 PM "Is this tune appropriate?" I can understand how a song can be considered distasteful or inappropriate maybe- but how can that apply to a "tune"? |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: GUEST,ClaireBear Date: 16 Jan 04 - 06:55 PM Oh, McGrath, I am sore wounded by the incisive quality of your rapier-like wit. But seriously, yes, I KNOW that I'm only uncomfortable with the song because of personal circumstances, and that's why I'd never ask anyone not to sing it. What I was trying to get across, though, is that I keep asking myself if "desensitization" -- due, to some degree, to that song -- wasn't a factory in my storybook family's descent into abuse. Believe me, I am not a believer in limiting songs to a sanitized, PC subset of the available material. It's just that this particular song, for a very particular reason, makes me wonder about the desensitization issue. As I already said, it's not an answer, just an anecdote I thought someone else might profit from. ClaireBear |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: GUEST,ClaireBear Date: 16 Jan 04 - 07:05 PM Sometimes I can't believe I edit for a living. Sigh. That's factor, not factory. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jan 04 - 07:24 PM It's a song and a "comic" song - but reading through it, it strikes me that there's a subversive element running through it, and it's not merely signing up for a "Spare the rod and spoil the child" approach. Up until the last two verses it comes across, in print anyway, as pretty sceptical about that style of child-rearing. What's achieved by heavy discipline is that: "Now poor old Bess got so darn mad She ran away one day To meet that travelin' salesman... Which wasn't, I imagine, what was intended. And even with the last two verses, it is pretty clear that the heavy-handed approach didn't work out as planned. Moreover, and I'd think maybe this takes a lot of the offensiveness out of it, the moral isn't "Behave yourself, young lady or you'll get slapped" - it's "Be careful not to get caught, and you'll be all right." And the last line seems to imply that Pa is a hypocrite anyway. ("And you won't have to worry, Cause you won't see much of pa.")In fact, read that way, the chorus does the same for the whole self-righteous family: "Slap her down again pa Slap her down again Make her tell us more pa Tell us where she's been We don't want our neighbors Talkin' about our kin Slap her down again pa, Slap her down again." |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Joybell Date: 16 Jan 04 - 07:54 PM Hello ClaireBear, A bunch of red noses, from the nose factory, to you. I think you comment is relevant and an important part of the discussion. I would never expect a singer to avoid any song that might offend or upset me either, but I would personally not sing this song. I wouldn't sing "The Wee Cooper of Fife" either. In fact I'll avoid songs, comic and otherwise, that CONDONE cruel behaviour. I can think of times when a song, has unexpectedly worked on someone in my audience. I sing "The Picture that is Turned Towards the Wall" and often comment that it's the story of my mother's experience when she turned up pregnant,on her parent's doorstep. A lady once came up to me, after my bracket, and said it was also her sister's story, and she thanked me for singing such a lovely, sensitive song. This song has come to be thought of as a rather over-the-top, slightly comical, piece of Victoriana, but I never present it that way. I sing it as it was intended to be sung and as I feel it. It's not a song that was written with comic intent. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Bill D Date: 16 Jan 04 - 11:42 PM Joybelle..I need to ask -- what you WOULD do with songs like "The Wee Cooper O Fife"? Would you eradicate them? Would you leave them in old books, but only allow certain people to see them? Would you just leave the room when someone else sings them? Do you sing only sweet, happy songs? Your statement "In fact I'll avoid songs, comic and otherwise, that CONDONE cruel behaviour.", made me think hard about the issue, and the conclusion I come to is, the song does not condone anything...one of the characters in the song condones a certain type of behavior. The song merely paints a picture of this behavior, and no one should ever assume that a singer approves of the attitude expressed in a song. A huge number of the folk songs I know in English contain some 'bad'(and often cruel) behavior, and I think it is important that these songs are heard and remembered as a mirror of the strange species of animal to which we belong. Yes, at one time it was widely considered 'ok' for men to beat wives that did not please them.....now it is a whole lot LESS condoned--perhaps due to the implied ridicule of the practice in some songs. (I know, I know...it is not 'explicitly' condemned...but then the song would not be 'fun' while it exposes. It is much harder to write a 'good' song which includes a moral lesson. It is much easier to describe the situation and let folks decide for themselves. I am not suggesting that you, or anyone, go learn a bunch of songs which are not what they like to sing, just because Bill D stated that it's good for them..*smile*, I just want to lay out one viewpoint about how we can approach all these musical records of our own history. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Cluin Date: 16 Jan 04 - 11:58 PM Our fiddler leaves the stage (or at least moves to the back of it) when we are forced by request to launch into "Barrett's Privateers". He doesn't like the "Goddamn them all!" line. Personally, I have sung that song so many times I wouldn't mind never doing it again. But folks still seem to get a kick out of it so that's why we do it. I used to like it too, years ago. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: M.Ted Date: 17 Jan 04 - 01:12 AM Well, Joybell--it is an oft used humorous device to take on the behaviors that embody a certain point of view for the purpose of satirizing and exposing the hypocricy of that point of view--Interesting to note that the Victorians were much satirized for their proneness to maudlin sentiments, their moral hypocricy, and their lack of humor-- |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: GUEST,Susanl Date: 17 Jan 04 - 04:36 AM Songs are meant to be about anything. They are stories about being alive. Good songs are well told stories about being alive. That's all that matters. The songs I love the most neither condemn nor condone human behaviour. They just tell a story musically and eloquently and leave the rest to the listener. I would rather listen to Willow Garden than This Land is Your Land, for instance. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Joybell Date: 17 Jan 04 - 07:02 PM Dear Bill, Me sweet and happy? *grin a few times over* I don't actually sing many "sweet, happy songs" at all. Songs like "The Wee Cooper of Fife" and other songs that condone what I see as unacceptable behaviour are not part of my repertoire but I certainly would not have them eradicated, nor do I expect any other singer to conform to my personal standards. The song that started this discussion does put the singer into the position of family member encouraging unnacceptable behavior and I wouldn't sing it. Funny that I've come across as a singer of sweet,happy songs. I've never really cared for them on the whole. The stories are boring for a start and they date quickly. As well I rather like the contrast between my rather sweet-sounding voice (not to mention my name) and really dark and terrible songs about death and pain and sadness. I do rather favour songs that have happy-sounding melodies - merry dance tunes, but that tell grim stories using strong images. Ballads like "Lamkin" and "The Cruel Sister". It's the contrast I like. I also sing 19th Century parlour songs of the sad variety. Very few of the comic ones appeal to me. My mind has always wandered around inside the folktales of the Grimms Brothers, the Child Ballads, and through lonely graveyards full of dead lovers. Sweet, happy songs? Joy though. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jan 04 - 07:16 PM Joybell is right - a lot of Victorian Parlour Ballads that people have come to think of as jolly romps are really serious songs, and they benefit from being sung that way. That applies for quite a number of other songs that always tend to be given the jolly singalong approach. For example, "The Titanic", which can send a shiver up your spine. For that matter so can "All for me Grog" - I once heard Tim Laycock sing a slow straight version of that, which had a quite extraordinary impact. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Joybell Date: 17 Jan 04 - 07:49 PM Yes McGrath, "Death came riding by sixteen hundred had to die!" Shivers indeed. "The Titanic" is one of the best. Joy of the Belles |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: GUEST,the old pooperoo Date: 17 Jan 04 - 08:06 PM why do we find it humorous when a grown man beats up his adolescent daughter? i think it's because the song makes clear that these people are just ignorant hillbillies, and we always find hillbilly violence humorous (feudin fussin & a-fightin, etc). we have also found humor in the spectacle of "darkies" cutting each other with their ubiquitous razors, or of cliche irishmen getting drunk and pounding each other to a pulp. try changing the contexts around -- substituting an anglo-american factory worker (or in claire bear's case, a college professor!) for Paw, for instance, and see how funny it sounds. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Bill D Date: 17 Jan 04 - 08:46 PM "...other songs that condone what I see as unacceptable behaviour..." Ah STILL don't think the SONG can condone nuthin' Ah guess, Ahm a mite slow, but Ah still don't see whut differmunts hit makes to be willin' to sing 'bout murder between sisters and NOT sing 'bout whuppin' yore silly kid...but everbody done got they own ideer 'bout where lines gotta be drawed. Y'all g'wan and sing whatcha want. (guess I'd better duck out of sight before my bad parody of hillbilly grammar gets too much flak! *big grin*) |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Joybell Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:00 PM It's not what you sing about but the position you take. This song is not just "about" something it has the singer taking sides. I repeat that I wouldn't sing it but other singers have to make up there own minds. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Joybell Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:03 PM Sorry "their" not "there" |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:12 PM Ah don' car' whut momma don' 'low, gonna sing 'at song anyhow! |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again From: Melani Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:42 PM My mother used to sing that song, with what she thought of as a "hillbilly" accent, because she thought it was funny--but then, she also plastered her guitar with decorative decals that really slopped it up (See thread "Decorated Instruments"). I never much cared for it. I think the problem is that it tells the story in the first person and is supposed to be funny, when in fact, as was pointed out, it's about parents beating their daughter. Strange that my mom's weird folk music habits seem to be coming up for me today. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Joybell Date: 18 Jan 04 - 05:57 PM Melani, You are exactly right. Just by the way I couldn't help thinking that my two daughters could probably relate to your story. I didn't sing this particular song but I know that my understanding of the songs I sing, and the effect they can have on listeners, has changed over the years. I think that the worst I did though was to be always dressed up in what my kids saw as funny clothes. They would have preferred a less weird Mum. I'm a Grandma now. Grandmas are expected to be eccentric. Cheers across the generations, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Jan 04 - 06:13 PM One storytelling technique is, where the idea is that the listener is meant to see through what the first person narrator is saying, and understand what is happening in a different way. Perhaps the thing about this song, as old pooperoo implies, is not that it advocates beating wayward daughters, but that it lampoons "hillbillies" for that kind of thing. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Jan 04 - 06:22 PM Nuthin' 'bout hillwillies in the song. It lampoons rural folk (like those engaged in the Iowa primary vote) from sea to shining sea. Sign me- city feller |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Walking Eagle Date: 18 Jan 04 - 09:44 PM If you want to sing it, you could update it by adding some verses of your own. This is a fine technique in the folk traditiion. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Jan 04 - 10:09 PM I sing You're Always Welcome at Our House to kids, and they always seem to like it. I sometimes get complaints from their parents, but I explain that I see value in a song that shows the absurdity of solving problems with violence. But "Slap Her Down, Pa" makes me cringe. It doesn't strike me as funny at all. On the other hand, I asked for the lyrics because I wanted to know what they said, and I'd like to hear the song - once. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Joybell Date: 19 Jan 04 - 06:07 PM Joe, I have been singing "You're Always Welcome at Our House" to kids for years too. I've never had a complaint but I too introduce it carefully. No one, especially the kids, could ever believe that it is about a real situation. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again From: Melani Date: 20 Jan 04 - 12:29 AM Joybell, I never minded that my mom was eccentric--and God knows she was. But she did have these occasional lapses of taste that I found pretty embarrassing--and still do. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: Inükshük Date: 20 Jan 04 - 02:47 PM Joe Offer "and I'd like to hear the song - once." As Q mentioned in the post providing the lyrics as you requested, there is a very cheerful rendition done by Patsy Montana at the Record Lady's place. You'll probably want to run it through a few times to get into the spirit of the song. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: GUEST,Stoo Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:11 PM Since posting this topic, I'm amazed at the array of different opinions. Both for and against are very well stated. I think the closest to my opinion was posted by McGrath of Harlow, where he stated that the song doesn't encourage beating on the daughter but lampoons the "rural folk" aka 'hillbillies' for perhaps behaving in that manner. Thanks for the response. I will have to think twice before performing said tune. Stoo |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:52 AM Clones - delete the crap but please keep this thread active! Stoo - if you're still there - go over to Art's Politically Incorrect Songs thread. I think these two should be linked with little blue clickies at the top. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again From: topical tom Date: 03 Mar 08 - 07:05 AM In my opinion, the only occasion to sing this song is as an example of how morally, socially, even legally wrong and inappropriate these type of songs were and ,thankfully, how we have progressed since then.I see no humour in such songs. |
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Subject: RE: Is this tune appropriate?: Slap Her Down Again Paw From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:36 AM Beat on the brat Beat on the brat Beat on the brat with a baseball bat, ohoh Joey Ramone |
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