Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)

Subject: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:22 PM

Thought this might be of interest to some, maybe/maybe not. Scary none the less. How many of the 14 characteristics listed below could we identify with today here in the US?

Copied from http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm Could someone add a blue clicky here, thanks.

Barry


"Fascism Anyone?"

Laurence W. Britt


The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 23, Number 2.


Free Inquiry readers may pause to read the "Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles" on the inside cover of the magazine. To a secular humanist, these principles seem so logical, so right, so crucial. Yet, there is one archetypal political philosophy that is anathema to almost all of these principles. It is fascism. And fascism's principles are wafting in the air today, surreptitiously masquerading as something else, challenging everything we stand for. The cliché that people and nations learn from history is not only overused, but also overestimated; often we fail to learn from history, or draw the wrong conclusions. Sadly, historical amnesia is the norm.


We are two-and-a-half generations removed from the horrors of Nazi Germany, although constant reminders jog the consciousness. German and Italian fascism form the historical models that define this twisted political worldview. Although they no longer exist, this worldview and the characteristics of these models have been imitated by protofascist1 regimes at various times in the twentieth century. Both the original German and Italian models and the later protofascist regimes show remarkably similar characteristics. Although many scholars question any direct connection among these regimes, few can dispute their visual similarities.


Beyond the visual, even a cursory study of these fascist and protofascist regimes reveals the absolutely striking convergence of their modus operandi. This, of course, is not a revelation to the informed political observer, but it is sometimes useful in the interests of perspective to restate obvious facts and in so doing shed needed light on current circumstances.


For the purpose of this perspective, I will consider the following regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, Papadopoulos's Greece, Pinochet's Chile, and Suharto's Indonesia. To be sure, they constitute a mixed bag of national identities, cultures, developmental levels, and history. But they all followed the fascist or protofascist model in obtaining, expanding, and maintaining power. Further, all these regimes have been overthrown, so a more or less complete picture of their basic characteristics and abuses is possible.


Analysis of these seven regimes reveals fourteen common threads that link them in recognizable patterns of national behavior and abuse of power. These basic characteristics are more prevalent and intense in some regimes than in others, but they all share at least some level of similarity.


1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.


2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.


3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people's attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite "spontaneous" acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and "terrorists." Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.


4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.


5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.


6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes' excesses.


7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting "national security," and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.


8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite's behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the "godless." A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.


9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of "have-not" citizens.


10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.


11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.


12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. "Normal" and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or "traitors" was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.


13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.


14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.


Does any of this ring alarm bells? Of course not. After all, this is America, officially a democracy with the rule of law, a constitution, a free press, honest elections, and a well-informed public constantly being put on guard against evils. Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics. Maybe, maybe not.


Note


1. Defined as a "political movement or regime tending toward or imitating Fascism"—Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.



Laurence Britt's novel, June, 2004, depicts a future America dominated by right-wing extremists.


Barry

---

Note:
For some unknown reason, this thread was turned into a forum to discuss problems at Mudcat. The serious discussion of Fascism was moved to another thread (click). Feel free to voice any complaints about Mudcat below, but please leave the other thread alone unless you want to talk about the topic at hand.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:31 PM

Here you go, Barry:

Secular Humanism

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:33 PM

Thanks Carol

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 10:02 PM

Precisely, Barry. I have seen the obvious movement toward fascism growing stronger and stronger in the USA ever since I first lived there in the 1960's, and it is stronger now than it has ever been. It is most vigorously supported by the neoconservative movement, allied with major corporate players and the military-industrial complex. All the symptoms you mention above are typical of the phenomenon and they have been happening at a growing pace, specially since 911, which was the American "burning of the Reichstag" excuse (whoever actually did it...) for ramping up domestic oppression and overseas aggression.

The USA also has 2 official political parties who are effectively BOTH pursuing a very similar set of objectives, while pretending publicly to be different from one another. This is a handy way of giving common people the false impression that they still live in a working democracy, when in fact they really do not.

Both of the US parties would be considered anything but "liberal" in most other parts of the developed world. One (Dems) is a wolf in sheep's clothing, the other (Reps) is a wolf in wolf's clothing...even with an important official named Wolfowitz. Perfect.

God save America...from itself. And God protect the rest of the world from America when its teeth are bared.

- LH

Subject: Lyr Add: THE VICAR OF BRAY
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 10:03 PM

THE VICAR OF BRAY

In good King Charles' golden days, when loyalty no harm meant,
A zealous high churchman was I, and so I gained preferment.
To teach my flock, I never missed
Kings are by God appointed
And damned be he who dare resist or touch the Lord's annointed.

cho: And this be law, I shall maintain
Until my dying day, sir
That whatsoever king may reign,
Still I'll be the Vicar of Bray, sir.

When royal James usurped the throne, and popery came in fashion,
The penal laws I hooted down, and read the Declaration.
The Church of Rome, I found, did fit
Full well my constitution
And I had been a Jesuit, but for the Revolution.

cho:

When William was our King declared, to ease the nation's grievance,
With this new wind about I steered, and swore to him allegiance.
Old principles I did revoke
Set conscience at a distance,
Passive obedience was a joke, a jest was non-resistance.

cho:

When Royal Anne became our queen, the Church of England's glory,
Another face of things was seen, and I became a Tory.
Occasional conformists base
I blamed their moderation;
And thought the Church in danger was from such prevarication.

cho:

When George in pudding time came o'er, and moderate men looked big, sir
My principles I changed once more, and I became a Whig, sir.
And thus preferment I procured
From our new Faith's Defender,
And almost every day abjured the Pope and the Pretender.

cho:

The illustrious house of Hanover and Protestant succession
To these I do allegiance swear --- while they can hold possession.
For in my faith and loyalty
I never more will falter,
And George my lawful king shall be --- until the times do alter.

cho:^o

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 10:04 PM

There are none so blind that WILL not see. It seems there must be some kind of survival mechanism in human nature that, by and large, refuses to allow its mind to be changed.

Even in Nazi Germany, there are many stories of people who refused to believe that the government was that bad- sometimes until it was too late to flee.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 10:37 PM

Ebbie - God, yes. They were in the majority, I believe, and as I've said on other threads the Germans are not a stupid nation. Far from it. It can happen anywhere, and it happens easily when you have a controlled media and a perceived exterior threat to get people to support "temporary emergency measures".

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 11:44 PM

The lovely thing about Americans is that they live to break rules. I was crossing the Homestead High Level bridge today, where the speed limit is clearly posted as 25mph. I was doing 35, and everyone was passing me. We fudge our taxes. We weasel around rules and regulations and pat ourselves on the back because we managed to outwit a parking meter, or sneak something past customs.
Tell Americans that they can't speak their minds anymore, and they'll scream their opinions to the four winds. Take away our right to vote, and people who couldn't be bothered to go to the polls before will howl bloody murder.
This is my hope for the nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:07 AM

Keep them fingers crossed that the enemy is stupid enough to be obvious, Lady Jena!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:16 AM

Tell Americans that they can't speak their minds anymore, and they'll scream their opinions to the four winds.

Yes, but I've noticed that we, as a nation, often don't bother to actually form our own opinions, but rather, we let our media (our "refernece group" as sociologists would call them) form them for us. And then we shout them to the four winds.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 03:27 AM

Reading through the list I canot help but think that many of them apply also to the current model of the Mudcat forum. I certainly think that 'WE' of the thread title - is all of us - wherever we live.

This is not an attempt to 'have a go' or to link - what most of us would accept as serious political issues - with the activities and mindsets individuals here and it is not really helpful to call anyone facist or indeed to call them any name at all.

Even in Nazi Germany, there are many stories of people who refused to believe that the government was that bad- sometimes until it was too late to flee.

The lesson that seems painfully slow for us to learn is that folk that turn out to be facist monsters like Saddam - are not born wearing a black-shirt with a label on their forehead. We allow these people to develop and encourage the systems that they create. We do this again and again - ignoring all the tragic lessons of history.

The answer is to accept that the problem is not confined to states and to the world stage but that these institutions are just scaled-up versions of your work-place, school and yes - even the current model this forum. And that we must all deal with it when we find it - before it becomes too big - and deals with us instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 04:53 AM

Roger,

Sounds like having a go to me.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 06:04 AM

Amos

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people's attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions.

The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite "spontaneous" acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and "terrorists." Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 07:42 AM

hi Shambles

I enjoy your poetry.. but think about this...

One of the ways authoritarian figures can scapegoat a particular group is by getting the general population to identify as victims, and by painting a particular minority group as their persecutors.

Thus, the majority of the people feel justified in getting stuck into the minority.

people feel a certain power in making accusations - by placing themselves in a victim role, they can feel justified in persuing their perceived persecutors,(the minority group) quite relentlessly, and in feeling virtuous about it.

it is worth considering whether this becomes an emotional habit, that can be satisfied by attacking "soft targets" eg smaller communities that a person may be a part of. It is much easier to attack a soft target that allows you to speak, and doesn't punish you (as a fascist govt would) than to challenge a genuine enemy of freedom.

i think mudcat can be an easy soft target. it's an open forum, lots of people read it, and you can be political in a sense by challenging its structure.

as i see it the only power people have here is in their ability to influence through their own words and argument. any perception of there being an "in group" is stretched in such an open forum.

i think it would be more effective to challenge a political hierarchy that has power, such as a government, than to spend time arguing against a soft target like mudcat.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 08:58 AM

i think it would be more effective to challenge a political hierarchy that has power, such as a government, than to spend time arguing against a soft target like mudcat.

We will leave for a moment things like if this now an 'open forum', a 'soft target' and your perception of an 'in group' or if I am in fact arguing against anything. For as I tried to say I am not 'having a go' at individuals here so there is little point in rushing to defend anyone, to judge or to stage a counter-attack. Which is the usual knee-jerk reaction to any criticism and is - I feel - a tactic that prevents any real improvement of to our forum. No matter what your perception - I trust that you would agree that there will always be room for improvement?

My point is simply that in order to prevent the hierarchy from ever becoming all-powerful - we MUST always challenge any abuse of any power, where and when we find it - while we still can.

We certainly must NEVER play with or use, excuse or defend the methods and tactics of the facist regime and indulge ourselves in rightous and judgemental witchhunts. Or think that temporary adoption of these methods is possible - as history tells us that this is a one-way-street.

I take your point about 'playing the victim' and I have also been accused of setting myself up as a martyr. I would argue that victims and martyrs do not create themselves but are created by the way certain individuals are treated. I can see the attraction (for the power concerned) of the idea that victims bring misfortune on themselves and deserve their fate - but I think it is rather dangerous to encourage this concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 09:03 AM

..fairy nuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 10:31 AM

So the question in my mind right now is - are we going to make this thread entirely a discussion about the Mudcat, or are we going to resume talkng about Fascism in the 3D world?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:12 PM

I can appreciate you not wanting this to turn into yet another Mudcat member/guest rant space, CarolC and Freda, but Shambles does make a valid point.

Protofascism can't occur in a vacuum. In countries where protofascism becomes the social, economic, and political order of the day, it takes hold because the citizenry allows it to take hold. The masterful manipulation of human emotions by the ruling elite, through use of media (which in today's era includes forums like this on the internet) aimed at "target market" groups known to have a well developed taste for the blood of those they dislike, are the first to fall in lockstep with the message of scapegoating.

Scapegoating in it's most negative manifestation is at the root of much of the flaming and trolling that occurs here at Mudcat. The scapegoats are, of course, the nebulous 'GUEST'. And while you may not feel there is an in-group at Mudcat, there is most certainly a ruling elite functioning here. That ruling elite has a despotic leader in Max, and layers of his loyal followers, including Pene Azul as his ministers, the Mudcat clones as the henchman, and the loyal members as the gang of 500.

Shambles' point is, for the objective, knowledgeable observer who knows what to look for (ie what protofascist behavior actually looks like when practiced by the citizenry, not it's rulers), well taken. Mudcat is a microcosmic example of the mainstream US protofascist macrocosm.

If the shoe fits...

BTW, I don't believe the US fits the protofascist profile quite as neatly as some have suggested, although it is true that protofascist elements clearly hold power in the current US administration. But I don't think that means you can declare US democratic traditions dead in the water yet. The citizenry of the US has plenty of fight in it, but it isn't a political party partisan fight the citizenry is itching for.

What people seem to want is to take back power from the economic and political elites that have held sway since the Reagan administration, because they are finally seeing the true erosion of quality of life and standard of living the US middle class is being threatened with under the current ruling elite. Which did/does include the Clinton "New Democrats".

However, it doesn't include politically independent minded voters, or the majority of the rank and file of the Democratic Party. But it definitely includes that 9/10 Republicans who support George W. Bush. Which is why this is such an important election cycle for the US. The protofascists definitely need to be beaten back, and it won't happen with the support of mainstream media, who by and large support the current Republican regime, and their 'New Democrat' cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:13 PM

Not so much thread drift as thread hi-jacking, I'd call that.

Perhaps a useful angle would be to identify what characteristics in a society can get in the way of going down the fascist road, and limit how far down that road it gets, and vice versa.
I'm not happy about using the term in an over wide sense. It tends to divert discussion into historical nitpicking. It seems to me that every society has within it the capacity to throw up from time to time an authoritarian populist nationalist regime, and they have certain features in common, though they differ very widely in the amount of harm they actually achieve. Using the term fascist makes it harder to bring in some cases where the term is not helpful, but which do have some of those features.

So, for example, what was it about Nazi Germany that resulted in a regime that so grotesquely outstripped all the other "fascisms", however nightmareish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:20 PM

I'm not going to suggest that we shouldn't talk about what The Shambles wants to talk about. But I think it's valid to ask if it needs to be the only thing that gets talked about.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:21 PM

Well boys, as far as I am concerned the shoe does not fit, nowhere near. You guys, to beat an analogy to death, are taking an SS marching boot and insisting it fits on Cinderella's foot. You couldn't be further off base if you tried, which I am sure you aren't. I am getting fed up with this stuff.

You don't understand power or what it is used for or how it works. Every exercise of authority that you don't agree with is perceived by you as an abuse of power when it isn't. Surrounding this sorry fact with clouds of Cosmic Rhetoric just ain't gonna change the ground truth.

Good job, Roger -- ya gone and perverted another piece of the 'Cat to your stupid hobby horse.

I suggest you find out what is really behind your caviling and upset, and address that -- perhaps a recent lifetime amongst the Bolsheviks or a painful death in a gulag somewhere? It sure as hell is not what you are addressing. How can I tell? Because nothing changes. When you get tothe right source of a problem, things shift. and you've been whinging on this drum all the time I have been here.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:29 PM

As far as I can see there is only one world and this world includes the Mudcat and does not consist only of the USA........Yet.

Is it being suggested here that Americans are more likely to be fascists then anyone else?

Is it really thought that it would be OK to toy with fascist style practices online - as if this was not also part of the real world?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:31 PM

Agreed CarolC. I don't really see that as what Shambles was actually doing, though. As I understood his posts, it seemed to be he was merely using an example close at hand to illustrate how easily protofascist tendencies can develop among ourselves.

Perhaps he has seen the enemy, by seeing us? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:44 PM

Shambles, I really would like to know what you REALLY want. Just what is it that would make you happy? What form do you envision the Mudcat to take, ideally? I hear you sniping and chipping away, and the only impression I come away with is that you would like there to be NO monitoring, no 'censoring', no power structure of any kind; basically you would like Max to just not be there. And yet you must know that if he were not here, Mudcat would cease to exist. Surely that is not what you want? What is it you want?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:06 PM

Hi Freda,

I hear you say,

"i think it would be more effective to challenge a political hierarchy that has power, such as a government, than to spend time arguing against a soft target like mudcat."

I think of Mudcat as being a democratic institution. Chomsky says that it's futile to "speak truth to power" to the already established power elite. They know what the "truth" is. I don't think any of us
are challenging Mudcat. We are challenging ideas and having a dialogue. This may be more important than sending a letter to someone who will file it under trash. By comparing ideas, challenging them and evaluating what Mudcatters say, this may have
more use in the long run then shouting down deaf ears.

Amos with all due respect I disagree with your statement,

"You don't understand power or what it is used for or how it works. Every exercise of authority that you don't agree with is perceived by you as an abuse of power when it isn't. Surrounding this sorry fact with clouds of Cosmic Rhetoric just ain't gonna change the ground truth...."

I think we are capable of understanding the nature of power and how and why it is used. "Every excercise of authority" is too general.
There are certain excercises of authority that I think we can all pretty much agree on. Most of us obey the law and if not some may challenge it and accept the consequences. As far as those laws or exercises of authority that we don't agree with, we have to be specific. When it comes to violations of human rights, ignoring
violations by corporate criminals, promoting unjust wars, or other issues presented by this thread, I don't see the vague Cosmic Rhetoric. I think these are pretty specific. Can't imagine what the
"ground truth" is though. Maybe you can elucidate.

You also state,
"I suggest you find out what is really behind your caviling and upset, and address that -- perhaps a recent lifetime amongst the Bolsheviks......."

Really not clear where this is going. It sounds like a reaction.
Maybe that we should be focusing on gulags and Bolshevism rather
than talking about a potential facist takeover of the US? The thread seems to be pretty clear as to what the subject is. Should it be
diverted to something else and if so for what reason?

Jack London wrote an interesting book called the "Iron Heel" which
talks about the rise of what was later to known as facism. It was kind of a prediction that came out of his observations. Are we not
entitled to do the same?

There is a reason that the BS section of Mudcat has been retained.
I think that it's because there are people in the folk music area
that have an astute sense of social issues and recognize the tradition of topical songs which don't arise out of a vacuum. They are a part of what we call the folk process. One thing I've noticed about people who are folkies, they don't think in lock-step like some have claimed. There's a wonderful diversity of opinion here and I
find it refreshing and applaud it.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:11 PM

GUEST, I think my question is directed at everyone, not just The Shambles.

To answer one of your questions, The Shambles. Yes, some of us here in the US are thinking that this country is sliding down that slippery slope a bit faster than some other parts of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:16 PM

Amos's reaction there demonstrates what I meant when I said that using the word "fascist" gets in the way rather than helping. It turns a discussion into an attack and defence, rather than an exploration.

That list of common features was a thought-provoking one. However it struck me as rather akin to carrying out a similar analysis for say, a dog and a rat. You could come up with a whole set of characteristics which they have in common - but that would not in fact mean that dogs and rats are the same animal.

However what they would indicate was that dogs and rats were both mammals.

Arguing about a word is a waste of time. Looking at the similarities and the differences between different regimes which rely on populist nationalism, and which adopt authoritarian techniques - that could be useful. And in the case of the USA, for example, what are the things about the society that can stop things going over the edge? And what things are there which might increase the risk of something like that happening?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:38 PM

Frank:

OK, sure -- this is an open forum. Free speech and all that. And that nicludes stupid hobbyhorses and people making issues where they don't exist.

Look -- a handfull of people, really less than five, have put this place together and kept it going through good and bad times, and in order to do so they organized a bit. Organizing means delegating authority and power to get things done.

So now Shambles, and GUEST, and a slough of others come on over and enjoy the priveleges of this community, reading with interest perhaps what others have to say and posting to their heart's content, and os far, no problem. But suppose they then decide to pee in the soup by caviling and whining ad eternam about offenses they have taken? Sure they have the right to do it. And I have the right to tell them I think it is garbage and that I am sick and tired of this pompous and groundless exalted victimhood.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:41 PM

Hey, look folks, it can be great fun being a Fascist....as long as you're winning, that is.

It works like this...

You get to make big, impressive patriotic speeches and cause people to cheer wildly!

You get hailed as the saviour of the nation, and the defender of liberty, freedom, truth, justice, and every other great thing like that.

You get to wear military uniforms and medals, and strut around like a hero, even if you've never been under fire.

As a fascist soldier, you get to visit and bomb the shit out of interesting faraway places, and you get to liberate suffering foreigners who talk funny from their corrupt rulers.

You get to use high tech killing equipment...the best money can buy.

You get to defend your country and all that it stands for.

You experience the adrenalin rush that goes with knowing that all that is good and decent hangs on the speed of your trigger finger.

It's almost as good as starring in a Rambo movie.

The only thing that can cause all of the above to go totally sour is when you get shot...or when your side starts losing! The latter can happen when your side acquires too many enemies, and fascists do tend to acquire an awful lot of enemies as time goes by...for some reason. (?)


As for fascism on Mudcat...(yawn)...well, sure. There is a little power-hungry latent fascist lurking in the heart of everyone, just waiting to burst out and take over, and that happens on Internet forums, in churches, in political parties, and in Boy Scout meetings.

The fascism in the American government worries me far more than the fascism on Mudcat Cafe. I can avoid being affected by Mudcat Cafe simply by logging off and doing something else.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:59 PM

IMO, the single greatest threat to freedom in the world today is the collusion of governments, multi-nationals and elites. The New World Order is the ultimate fascism, and it IS happening. Truth is that our ability to communicate can be interrupted at any time: Internet and Phone. Is anyone foolish enough to think that Echelon is just about anti-terrorist activity? Does anyone really think that 10-year-old slaves in SE Asia making shoes for athletes in the 'developed' world isn't being encouraged and orchestrated? Does anyone think that we are not being herded by the media? Sufferin' Jesus. Does anyone think that AIDS isn't being encouraged in Africa? Does anyone think that the game plan isn't about turning this planet into one big happy labour camp? Call me paranoid, folks, but it is so f##cin' big it's almost impossible to see. MJ-12 is a reality. The power elite is pulling strings and the puppets dance.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 02:21 PM

What form do you envision the Mudcat to take, ideally?

Ebbie I really don't want to inflict the whole thing on anyone yet again - but the following thread (on the help forum) is is the beginning of an answer to your question.

Minding our own business

Amos the trouble with a management 'team' of trouble-shooters - in this case one that is formed to combat a perceived outside threat - is that the 'team' has a vested interest in keeping that the idea of that threat alive.

As without any witches to hunt- there is no real function for them. The danger is that when the obvious suspects have been addressed - less obvious targets will then start to get the same treatment and control will be exercised for the sake of control.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 02:21 PM

McGrath, I think the original poster was very careful to define the use of the word you now seem to be suggesting shouldn't be used in this instance, because it triggers strong emotional reactions.

The suggestion that certain aspects of the Mudcat dynamic matched some of the criteria presented in the original poster's definition of fascism, has resulted in you, Amos, possibly CarolC and Frida, saying "it can't happen here at Mudcat" in what seems to be a reactionary sort of way.

I disagree protofascist behavior can't be seen at Mudcat, because I have seen it here with my own eyes, just as I have seen it at my American workplace, and among my American friends, and my American family. As I said earlier, protofascist behavior doesn't occur in a vacuum. Governments, multinational corporations, the military, etc. are made up of people just like you and me. Like everyone else on this planet, people end up de facto supporting those institutions now overtaken by a specific protofascist ruling elite, not just because some want to support those institutions, but because in everyday life, it is very difficult not to support them indirectly at the very least. I shop for my groceries at a corporate chain, at a food cooperative, and at a small, independent grocer, for instance.

The original poster went to some effort to post a thoughtful, well reasoned set of criteria for using the word fascist/protofascist, that can be used by reasonable people to carry on a very interesting conversation here. It would be sad to see a couple of Mudcat regulars (you and Amos in particular), who constantly attack anyone and everyone who dares to post critical analysis of the Mudcat community vis a vis the 3D communities we also all live and work in, get away with censoring the debate here. As Shambles has consistently pointed out recently, that keeps happening here with alarming regularity.

Are we on our way, again, to calling in the Mudcat enforcers to shut down the discussion because you don't feel comfortable when people criticize this online community by attacking the messenger?

Haven't we seen enough of that here since the Xmas holiday, for gods sake?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 02:55 PM

Amos... whatsup dude? seems you've been spoiling for a fight... but ohmygod man... we're your friends! Any particular reason why you're going off like a loose canon? c'mon man, lighten up and get back into our little fold... where we enjoy our disagreements and encourage the questions that highlight historic precedent... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 03:13 PM

shambles, put a bloody sock in it...everyone's plainly tired of your shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 03:24 PM

"...a couple of Mudcat regulars (you and Amos in particular), who constantly attack anyone and everyone who dares to post critical analysis of the Mudcat community"

If that was from a person with a name, I'd ask them for date and time of posts I have made which can fairly be described in those terms. I don't attack people, even when I disagree with them.

There's always room for "critical analyses of the Mudcat community". However it would seem to me that a much more constructive way of carrying on a discussion of these would be in a separate thread - perhaps with a link from this thread.

..............................

One of the complications with using "fascism" as the umbrella term is that which brucie touches upon - the involvement of multi-nationalism, and globalisation.

Implicit in "fascism" is the priority of the nation state, but for many of the new tyrannies the nation state is not in reality all that important, though it can be convenient to use the rhetoric at times, and take advantage of people's programmed loyalties and reactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 03:35 PM

It's difficult for me to take the Mudcat as a microcosm of the world in which fascism is a threat. Unlike living in the outside world, if one does not like the 'Cat or feels threatened in any way by it, one can choose not to participate. One could even- Heaven forfend! choose not to open the website. Simple.

For once, I agree with Clinton Hammond: This is the internet!

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 04:48 PM

Hey, Shambles,

I really enjoy the Mudcat. It is IMO the absolute best site on the 'net, bar none (well, except for the picture palace of--ah, never mind). Anyway, I have always found the administration people here to be friendly, helpful, encouraging and just plain nice. We all have views, and that includes the admin people. The right of a person to swing his arm stops at the end of my nose. We all live with constraints. There are limits to many things in life, and any toning down I get on the 'cat is likely one I deserve. I don't feel I have ever been 'brought into line' by admin people. Some of my fellow posters have shot me down a time or two, and I have learned from that. It's part of the give and take that occurs with human interaction. Ain't tryin' to lecture. Just sayin'.

Bruce M

PS When a hierarchy becomes all powerful, it just pulls the f33kin' plug--any time it wants.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 05:46 PM

The suggestion that certain aspects of the Mudcat dynamic matched some of the criteria presented in the original poster's definition of fascism, has resulted in you, Amos, possibly CarolC and Frida, saying "it can't happen here at Mudcat" in what seems to be a reactionary sort of way.

No GUEST, I'm not participating in that part of the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 06:45 PM

Amos, I agree that it's OK to be annoyed with something someone doesn't want to hear. I also think it's OK to disagree with
that if someone thinks it's important to hear.

I like the idea of an open forum where you can bitch, moan, argue
and repeat obnoxiously as long as those that don't agree can
disagree.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 06:45 PM

I am particpating. My position is this. Those who contribute to the creation of a positive scene here earn the right of community. Those who seek to help and support and provide insight, positive communication and even constructive advice are those with whom I am happy to associate. I am not spoiling for a fight, I am just fed up with smarmy false datums being flung around to the detriment of the community. Here's an example: "The trouble with a management 'team' of trouble-shooters - in this case one that is formed to combat a perceived outside threat - is that the 'team' has a vested interest in keeping that the idea of that threat alive. "

If they were paid for it, I couls see your point. They are volunteers. They have plenty of real life to do. They were asked to contribute their skills to deal with postings gone awry, duplicate posts, as wlel as posts that made personal attacks, spammed the community, sought commercial gain, or aimed to hurt people. As far as I have seen they have done that.

The point where disagreeing with some specific action these site aides have taken becomes harmful is not in the disagreeing but in the casting of clouds oif generalized negativity, blaming the whole site,   and making sweeping condemnations of the kind we have seen on this topic. A lot of volunteer work and goodhearted volunteerism went into this place and I don't care to see it torn down verbally by those who have neither the sight nor the heart to see what is in front of their faces. I won't just shut up about it. I am tired of it.

Thomas, I am not spoiling for a fight in particular.   You and I clashed on an issue about poetics, which is just a friendly dialogue as far as I am concerned.

This is enough said, as far as I am concerned. My point has been made over and over again, by me and others, and I am tired of making it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 08:14 PM

I looked through that list (characteristics of fascism) - our govt (in Australia) has engaged in them all except number 14 (bogus election). yet the last election was very controversial b/c the govt created a racist, political incident just prior to the election, giving misleading info about a particular ethnic group (refugees, boat people) and people swept them in in a tide of xenophobia.

while the term "fascist" may apply, its effectiveness as a political label is determined by how many people understand the term, and how often it may have been used recklessly in the past.

here is Oz our govt is being characterised as a reactionary govt. it is targeting intellectuals as elitist, has encouraged racism, and labels dissenters as "un australian". in the last 8 years racism has become an issue - has been made an issue by this government.

Barry Finn, I was so glad you put that article up. I have bookmarked the site now. I have been feeling overwhelmed by the dangerous and divisive nature of our current govt. even reading something that helps analyse it is good. in australia we don't have a move on movement, tho we do have some political discussion forums. but the opposition has been crippled to some extent by the govt, who charactise anyone who opposes it as supporting terrorism etc.

shambles, you are right in saying we should examine all structures we are part of. but i can speak freely in this one.

and i don't think guests are scapegoated here, its clear there is a lot of mutual scapegoating. in the meantime, the political machinery is on the move.

fred

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 10:30 PM

Well danged, folks!

What do you all think I've been talkin' about fir the last two years?

Geeze, does something have to come into fashion 'er what?

Fascists is what we got.

No, lots of folks don't like it and others, against overwhelming evidence will deny it, but that's purdy much what we got... Want to stop 'em? Maybe yer last chance in the US but vote 'em out 'cause there may never be a vote again....

Think about it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 10:40 PM

I'm with you there, Bobert. Only problem is, I think they effectively control both your political parties...so who ya gonna vote for?

Still, I do think the Republicans are a bit worse, all things considered, so by all means vote out Mr Bush if you possibly can. They'll at least have to take a breath and reorganize for a bit if there's a change in administration.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 11:29 PM

Do you really think the Dems could ever top the existing administration LH? IMO, it's no contest...

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: mooman
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 06:54 AM

Reading Barry's original posting, a lot of the points listed there have a disturbing resonance. It seems to me that many of them apply to an increasing number of countries or, at least, political elements withinthose countries. I live in Belgium and, in Antwerp, a disturbing 30% or so of the vote is going to the Vlaamsblock...an extremely right wing and racist part which rants about nationalism a lot. There's a similar disturbing trend in a lot of other countries and, with apologies to some who would disagree here, a lot of these characteristic seem to apply to the current US administration (I'm not talking the US people here - as others have mentioned, a somewhat slavish media is doing its best to disinform the public, as in many other countries).

Regarding the relationship to Mudcat. Mudcat is merely a microcosm reflecting meatspace in general with many different points of view. I personally totally welcome that and don't see any trend towards the suppression of differing views. It is unfortunate that "Guest" has become the focus of vitriol in many cases. Many "Guest" posting I read are highly informative and interesting and probably a very small minority are trolling. I happen to know that far for being a despotic leader mentioned above Max is, in fact, very anti-censorship on this forum (and I am not one of the "elite" or "inner circle" - if such a thing actually exists). I do personally support the actions of the JoeClones to delete messages with unpleasant or intimidating personal attacks. If this were my site I would do the same.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:23 AM

One of the problem with using the term "fascist" is that it lets people off the hook. They look at what's being attacked, and find that in some respect it doesn't really match the term, and move on to the view that in that case it means things are really OK.

"Fascism" is a particular deformation of society in particular times and places. This has some aspects which are also increasingly characteristic of some of the societies we are living in, and we should be very worried about that. But using the word loosely actually makes it easier for many people to avoid those worries, because they can look at other aspects where there are real differences.

And what it also misses is that there are some very threatening aspects of our societies which weren't available under Fascism in its various forms. Technology means that it is now possible for the authorities to have far more knowledge of and control of us in our daily lives than would ever have been possible in Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy.

It is now actually possible for our rulers to exercise total control over us, one by one, as and when they choose. That has never been possible before, not even in slave societies. The all-embracing nature of this control means that it can be exercised without any need to use the heavy-handed methods that are associated with "fascism" - and if we think about it, that potentially makes it even more frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:40 AM

When the Democrat presidential candidate wins this November the USA will instantly be un-fascist again. I can't wait. I've been terrified that the 51% of people who hate the direction we're taking are going to roll over and play dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:06 AM

We shouldn't just bemoan the symptoms of growing fascism in Mudcat in general terms, we should call the names of the worst offenders:

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Greg F. has spoken out innumerous times his mind about American supremacy.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. Katlaughing surely deserves to be outed as the worst offender here.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Let us not forget how JoeO tries to unify us against innocents who only insist of their right to double or triple posts. How dares he to decide that multiple postings of identical words is not done with artful purpose?

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. I could name many here, but to name just one, think of war hero Big Mick who gloats in everything remotely military.

5. Rampant sexism. Peg surely deserves most of the miscredit here.

6. A controlled mass media. MMario tries to control all input to Mudcat tunes since ages. What are his sinister motives in doing so?

7. Obsession with national security. CarolC is obsessed with personal and national security.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Little Hawk, a member of the ruling elite here, is known for his remorceless defense of traditional religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. You can trust Bobert never to fail to post in support of them.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Sorcha is doing her worst to undermine organised labor by trying whenever possible to post first the result of completely individual searches. By doing this in the way of early capitalist homework at an incredibly cheap wage she prevents others being payed a decent wage for doing hard searches.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Peter T. is infamous here for his outspoken anti-intellectual attitude. Arts I guess he only knows when paired with 'martial'

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. McGrath of Harlow has often spoken harshly about petty offenders and is a stern advocate of capital punishment.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Isn't it Gareth who has rallied his British cronies to trust him with Mudcat monies? And what happens? Mudcat is still unavailable once per week.

14. Fraudulent erections. Frau-Du-Lent (retranslated from German: woman, you, spring), well, when analysed like this, it should spring to your mind that the prime suspect here must be Wolfgang.

I could have named many more here and several suspects would have merited multiple nominations, but, to cite a song from Christy Moore, I can but name a few. Perhaps next time.

Wolfgang

More seriously, with the possble exception of (3) (with a generous dose of twisted perception) I see nothing in Mudcat which is remotely similar to Fascist tendencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:14 AM

Fraudulent erections?????????? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: mooman
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:23 AM

Excellent analysis Wolfgang...but aren't you known more for somnolent prostrations than fraudulent erections...?

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:37 AM

When are we going to have our March on Rome? (We could call it a Mudcat Euro-gathering...)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 11:01 AM

Wolfgang!! Humour????? My God, where is the world coming to??? LOL!! Thanks for the grin!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 11:26 AM

Well!, I for one am terribly upset at being left out of Wolfgang's list! Surely 7 years of haranging for better standards of jokes & humor and trying to foist off myriads of freeware programs should count for something why, I.......*runs off in fit of giggling*


(thank you, Wolfgang...that made my day...maybe WEEK!)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 12:16 PM

Well, Bill. After all my ranting here I only got an honorable mention, my ownseff, sniff... CarolC made out like a bandit, though, so I suspect she's got the goods (think photographs here...) on Wolfgang...

Cold over yer way? Yeah, cold over here, too but I'm happy to report that me and the Wes Ginny Slide Rule have deducted that the fascist ain't got nuthin to do with it. Nor do the big greedy corporations...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 02:27 PM

Ha! Ha! Ha! Marvelous, Wolfgang!!! Two skunks up! (That's a Don's Coffeehouse expression denoting the highest approval.)

You could also have included Spaw for his blatantly obvious fascist tendencies, such as resorting to vulgar overstatement and scatalogical hyperbole with an eye toward inciting a paranoid public to commit and support violent acts against minority groups! Like an old general, he has retired somewhat into the background of late, but his overall influence remains profound.

I am so thrilled that you noted my slavish adherence to traditional religions...and the fact that I am now among the ruling elite! Yes, it's a glorious time to be alive. The sheer sense of power and control that I derive from posting on this forum gives me chills.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 02:50 PM

In Mudcat, the practice of obfuscation whenever the forum is criticized, has been made a religion of sorts, with certain Mudcat members acting as it's priesthood.

Folks here seem very touchy about any suggestion about Mudcat possibly engaging in:

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.

Ahem. See Wolfgang's remarks above.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.

Mudcat has no military, but there are most certainly enforcers of rules. In protofascist communities, it is never quite clear to the masses who all the enforcers are, or what the rules are that are being enforced. Protofascist communities always have a group of secret enforcers, and rules are always ambiguous and arbitrary.

7. Obsession with national security.

In Mudcat, the obsession is with forum security, but it is an obsession nonetheless, most often manifesting with xenophobic paranoia about 'guest' posters.

The point is, a community doesn't need to embody all 14 of the above listed characteristics of fascism, for some fascist characteristics to be routinely made manifest by enough members of that community with impunity, for those specific fascist characteristics to be deemed acceptable behaviour by the majority of the community's members.

Once the majority of community members agree upon #3 (guests in Mudcat's case), and agree that the community needs protection from the scapegoated group in order for it's members to be "safe" (#7), then it is a mere hop, skip, and jump to #4, where the ruling elite (in this case Max, Pene and Joe Offer) appoint their secret security apparatus (the Joe Clones), and voila! The rules enforcers take secret action to police against the perceived threat(s) the scapegoated group represents. In Mudcat's case, the threats most often mentioned that need to be 'dealt with' by the Mudcat rules enforcers are: insulting the members (this is usually described as the 'personal attack' rule); identity theft of the Mudcat name/identity of a member, and/or obsession with exposing the identity of anonymous guests).

It is quite easy for members of a community to come to a quick consensus, when insiders feel threatened by those perceive as being 'undesirable' outsiders infiltrating their community. Too often, #3, #4, and #7 are made manifest in response to the incursions by these dreaded outsiders, whether that community be online or in the 3D world.

#3, #4, and #7 are such common responses, that they are usually the first acts leading many community members to gleefully dive down the slippery slope. Protofascism becomes more and more pervasive, creeps in a little bit at a time, is often a sign of the times, as it seems to be now in Britain and the US.

To suggest "it can't happen here" in Mudcat, is just head in the sand thinking. It can and does happen everywhere, among people that in less oppresive times, would never exhibit such protofascist behavioural characteristics. This place, and the people inhabiting it, are no exception.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 02:58 PM

Naw - the thing with Spaw would have been his prim obsession with censoring any mention of bodily functions on the Cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 03:32 PM

Dear Guest of two posts above this'un. If you think anything here is fascist, you are using the word incorrectly. I won't fault your right to say what you want, but not being able to say what you want is a concept that has more commerce with totalitarianism than it does with the characteristics of a fascist state.

Second, I disagree with you. In/on a truly oppressive site, your remarks would have been deleted, and thsi thread would never have lasted this long. Its very existing attests to the wrongness of the initial premise.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 03:34 PM

Aw, Jesus, Guest -- give it a break, would you?

Our obsession with forum security is a strong desire not to see people get hurt -- ninety per cent of the time when someone jumps in to act forceful it is because someone else is shooting off their mouth in a way that is overtly hurtful. Or, worse, covertly hurtful.

What you seem to be missing is the volunteer nature of everything said and done here on the 'Cat -- building it, keeping it up, or trying to drag it down. Everyone gets to choose which they will do, and you seem to really enjoy the latter. No ownder you meet with resistance, eh?

Instead of stepping on other peoples' toes all the time, whyncha just stuff your toes into your mouth and bite down hard. 'Cuz you're not using your mouth for anything productive just now anyway.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 04:05 PM

I think that to apply the term "facist" to the US as a whole
country at this point is too general. There are facistic tendencies, however,when the Attorney General incarcerates 700 in Guantanamo without due process, this fits the specific definition. The US is also "socialist" because we have Social Security. The labels can
be carefully applied to specific actions but not to the country
as a whole. Hegemony is now national policy. But "facism" has to be applied in context.

I think it's fair to talk about specific actions and label them
accordingly as long as they are defined in context and not
generalized.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 04:09 PM

Maybe there's a distinction between the freedom to say what you want, and the freedom to force other people listen to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 04:20 PM

gol-DURN, I didn't realize our management and 'volunteers' were in reality priestly, obfuscating, 'enforcers' exhibiting behaviorial tendencies which are fraught with pervasive, proto-facist, xenophobic paranoia towards scapegoats! Does Joe McCarthyummm ,Orrin Hatch ummm, Chicken Little know about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 07:55 PM

Amos your over-reaction when you perceive any criticism of our unpaid volunteers reminds me of that Monty Python sketch. The one where the customer is accused of not being fit to lick the boots of the poor chef - when all the customer initially, and reasonably asks the waiter for is a clean fork.

Let us turn the argument around a little bit. If you lived in a state where you had policing and police but no rules to protect you from these police - would it really be so unreasonable to ask for some rules?

Would there be a time in the development of this state when it may be reaonably safe to make this request and would there be a time when making this request would not be a safe course for an individual?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 08:37 PM

Shambles, methinks you have read too much Dreaded Guest. Give it a rest, will you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 08:49 PM

No, let's not. You continuously use analogies that collapse at the first comparison to actuality and then wonder why others don't get the point. Anyone who walks in to the Mudcat asking for a clean fork -- let' s say the equivalent to that in our space is a request for lyrics -- gets it in three minutes or three days for the tough ones, as a friendly contribution by someone who likes to help. Might be you or me or Sorcha or anyone.

Now, first all I do not live in the Cat. Second of all I know the difference between List Moms (as they are known elsewhere) and police and it is scurrilous to collapse that distinction. Third of all I know the general boundaries of what the List Moms here will do and will not do, and believe there is good reason for having them do those things. Fourthly I think I know what the common grounds of community well being are that will require action. I have learned all this by attending secret meetings of the Inner Clique simply observing what actually happens.

Roger, there is a point where the virtue of persistence becomes the pathological patern of perseverance.

Goodnight, pal. Sleep peacefully.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 08:55 PM

there is a point where the virtue of persistence becomes the pathological pattern of perseverance.

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:08 PM

Careful reading of Wolfgang's post will reveal the following – which seems to have been overlooked in the general surprise expressed - that Wolfgang has a very good sense of humour.

More seriously, with the possible exception of (3) (with a generous dose of twisted perception) I see nothing in Mudcat which is remotely similar to Fascist tendencies.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Let us not forget how JoeO tries to unify us against innocents who only insist of their right to double or triple posts. How dares he to decide that multiple postings of identical words is not done with artful purpose?

My perception may indeed have become a little twisted over the years I have been contributing to our forum, but the view of your own police force is coloured by which side of them you personally come into contact with. If, for example you can produce the video evidence of your beating at the hands of the LAPD – it may be just about possible to convince many law-abiding citizens that such abuses do happen. Although it would appear that many people still seem determined to ignore any evidence that contradicts their deeply held view or is that it is OK as long as the abuses are happening to others? No one is saying that the fact that these abuses DO happen - makes all police bad people.

The point I would make here is that there is only one punishment for any crime. And that this punishment is used increasingly and not just by Joe. Is it really proportionate that personal attack using foul language from an anonymous poster will receive exactly the same summary justice as a duplicate or an incoherent posting?

There seems to be many more than these two examples of what is not allowed and that will receive this one punishment and these would appear to be increasing. However, the questions that are not at all unreasonable to ask - must be:

1 Should the punishment fit the crime and does it currently?

2 Are all the volunteers authorised to administer summary justice and censor other's postings – without the poster's knowledge or permission – based only on their value judgement?

3 Is there to be no difference to be seen between an abusive post and say an incoherent one?

4 Is a sensible and responsible example being to set when our volunteer police force also indulge in making abusive posts themselves and start calling other posters names?

5 Is it really too much to ask that those that would volunteer to judge (and punish) us – can be expected to always set the standards and be judged themselves by these standards?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:18 PM

No, let's not. You continuously use analogies that collapse at the first comparison to actuality and then wonder why others don't get the point. Anyone who walks in to the Mudcat asking for a clean fork -- let' s say the equivalent to that in our space is a request for lyrics -- gets it in three minutes or three days for the tough ones, as a friendly contribution by someone who likes to help. Might be you or me or Sorcha or anyone.

No,let's not.

Your analogy is one where you would just order your meal and be served.

The correct analogy is more to one where the lyrics are supplied and the original poster does not say thanks or appears - to the outraged member(s) posting in response - to be otherwise ungrateful in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:18 PM

Roger:

Look through the FAQs and other posts available to newcomers and tell me the guidelines are not published. I am pretty sure they have been explicated in the past if not several times.

No-one on the Cat has ever been punished and it just an alarmist exaggeration to call it that. Nor has anyone posting to the cat ever committed a crime by doing so except perhaps inducing emotional distress or assault with a blunt sense of humor.

Even if the whole story was a secret council with editorial power based entirely on whimsy (which it is not) it is pretty much a decision that gets made by the owner. I guess it is like painting the walls in a house. If you own it, you choose the colors. If you don;t own it, you have to clear it with he who do. The Cat is not a "commune", it is a "community". Big diff.

No, it is not too much to ask, now that you are boiling it down to a courteous request. It IS too much to whinge about, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:42 PM

Shambles, it is a pleasure to make your aquaintance. I am a calm, nice guy. I have this to say: I like the Mudcat and it is not fascistic, totalitarianistic, or any of those other words that are getting thrown around. For instance is not proof. When I fought in the dojang (gym) or the odd tournament, occasionally I get a punch or kick that was technically unfair. Know what? No one gave a shit. I recall taking a spin back kick in the nuts: drove 'em into my body. Hurt like a sonuvabitch. My master made me keep my knees locked and my legs straight. He picked me up about half a dozen times and pile drove me to the floor, where I hit with my heels. It drove my nuts back into the scrotum (where I like to keep 'em), and then he gave me shit for bein' sloppy and causing him grief. He made me finish the match. I lost.

What I'm reading here is Mickey Mouse stuff. I mean you no insult. But I think insults are getting thrown around here. Men take it outside and deal with it. Real men resolve the issue. Remember, most of these people are your friends, and the heat of argument is an easy place to forget that. I have seen that many people here respect you. Have your say, but remember that these are your friends. I don't think you have any fascist friends, do you?

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:51 PM

Look through the FAQs and other posts available to newcomers and tell me the guidelines are not published. I am pretty sure they have been explicated in the past if not several times.

No need to inflict the FAQ issue again on everyone here - the following thread from the HELP forum will cover this point - to anyone still interested.

Why are my threads been deleted?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:08 PM

The Shambles' feeling pushed, ingratiating has become
And often is now shushed, but no one thinks he's dumb
His argument's devisive, good people find their guard
And everyone's incisive, where is his better bard?

The point Shambles is making, it means something to him
But caustic are his postings, like mine have been on whim
If he needs understanding, I'm one who thinks he does
Let's stop this reprimanding, and find in him a plus

These witty little put downs, all coupled with his pains
Are tripping us like clowns, who's laughing will remain?
So Shambles, let me ask you, if you will let me dare
Is it really true? Are you still hurt in there?
ttr

PS...I see absolutely no similarities between this forum and totalitarianism. None.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:24 PM

hi shambles

did you ever hear the story of the boy that cried wolf?

whhile you're shouting about the "wolf"in mudcat, the Big Bad Wolf of fascism is knocking on the door.

Little Pig, Little Pig, let me come in....

have you noticed him out there?

because in here, there is a comfy couch and a keyboard. out there, there is a genuine BBW, just chomping away.

I'd rather have Joe Offer than Rupert Murdoch controlling this screen any day.

ps still enjoying your rhymes

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:38 PM

Joe's answer to Shambles inthe Help forum is exactly what I would have expected. It is also covered in the FAQ if you wish to look.

Thomas, your point is good, and generally true of anyone who resorts to ambiguous generalizations and arm waving -- they are yapping out of pain. A compassionate thing to understand.

And appreciated, and necessary.

In the larger picture, possibly not sufficient, but appreciated anyway.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:44 PM

whhile you're shouting about the "wolf"in mudcat, the Big Bad Wolf of fascism is knocking on the door.

No the wolf of fascism is not knocking on our door
It comes and goes quite freely, as many times before
We alone can invite it in - or tell it to depart
For the big bad wolf of fascism - it dwells in all our hearts

Why would you wish anyone to control our screens? Is it just a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 06:35 AM

HEY!! BARRY!!!! Great find and thanks for the post.

HEY!! WOLFIE!!!!   I always knew you had it in you....glad it wasn't too painful to get out.........

HEY!! ROGER!!!!   Give it a break sometime huh? I know eternal vigilance and all that and I think a lot of folks understand and care about your concerns, even agree to some extent or another!Unfortunately, a lot of those same people are also fried crisp with the intensity of your "Eternal Flame" and are ready to hold a mass piss-in to put it out. Ease up man.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 07:26 AM

Why would you wish anyone to control our screens?

Isn't that precisely what has happened in this thread? Thread drift is one thing, but hijacking a thread like this is something quite different.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 07:43 AM

"Can we please do as customary on threads and respect the wishes or the original poster..."

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 07:54 AM

Yeah. One person, as far as I can see, decided to hijack a useful and thought-provoking thread here about a very important subject and turn it into his own personal venue for carping endlessly about a very trivial matter...presumably because he got his feelings hurt somewhere along the way.

For heaven's sake, get over it.

I have had, oh, three or four threads which I launched on this forum censored and removed in the past three years. (and I thought they were entirely harmless threads, and hopefully quite funny, which was how I intended them to be when I posted them). So?

Was I irritated about it at each time when it occurred? Yes, definitely. Surprised and quite irritated...and I PM'd Joe Offer and complained about it to him personally, and explained why I was irritated about it. And what did he say? He said more or less this: I know where you're coming from, LH, and I know you don't mean anything wrong by that thread, but there are some people who just won't get it and it could cause a real problem because of that, so I thought it was best not to continue with it.

I didn't entirely agree with Joe on that, but I understood his position perfectly...as he understood mine.

Furthermore, I balanced my momentary irritation over other people's emotional hangups against the fact that I LIKE this forum the other 98% of the time!

And I got over it (in a day or less) and I continued enjoying this forum. And I did not hijack a whole bunch of other threads and keep harassing people in general with my hurt feelings.

Does that suggest anything useful to you, Shambles? I mean, really, what in God's name are you doing going on and on about this for on a thread that was intended to be about fascism in World politics?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,voice of reason
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 08:32 AM

Just an idea, if threads are being deleted because Joe thinks that some people may "not get it", would it not be fairer all around if the people who may "not get it", complain themselves. Therefore giving the poster an opportunity to respond him/herself?

Yup, just as I thought, far tooooooooo sensible.

As you were.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 12:00 PM

I'm utterly depressed. It appears that Shambles has become the new Mudcat scapegoat, and everyone except Amos and McGrath are ignoring me.

I'm not worried though. Because the membership has assured me that fascist behavior DOESN'T HAPPEN HERE! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:02 PM

"...Shambles has become the new Mudcat scapegoat..."

ummm....1)you need to look up 'scapegoat', he has become more of a 'gadfly' 2)do you not expect gadflies to be swatted at when they bite the same spot over & over?..3)Shambles is PART of the 'membership...you are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:30 PM

No nameless-GUEST post can ever be assumed to come from the same person as any other nameless-GUEST post. (Not even if it claims to.)

So there's absolutely no point in swatting such a post. It'd be a bit like responding to a poison-pen letter by sending a response with "Address Unknown" written on the envelope.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:33 PM

(the point is, with a little effort, either Shambles or I could find and drop in on each other and have a beer and debate all this...maybe just agreeing to keep disagreeing, but as people, not shadows.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:36 PM

Mon copain Bill D as bien frappe le nail justement sur le fucking head, bien sur.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:56 PM

". . . sur le fucking head . . .". LMAO

Yeah, I have come to like Shambles, despite the fact I don't agree with him. The GUEST guy, well, ya know.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:05 PM

"Can we please do as customary on threads and respect the wishes or the original poster..."

Glad to see that irony is not lost on you Kevin. *Smiles*

If I have 'hijacked' this thread from Barry's original intent I am sorry - but I would appear to have had rather a lot of help.............From my friends?

Unfortunately, a lot of those same people are also fried crisp with the intensity of your "Eternal Flame" and are ready to hold a mass piss-in to put it out. Ease up man.

If some of this energy could be devoted to ensuring that some of my reasonable questions are reasonably and truthfully answered and the resulting issues finally addressed - we may all be able to feel that we could all ease up......

It is pretty obvious that members ignoring all the evidence, insulting me or encouraging or taking part in yet more witch hunting has not and will not alone change my view and that I have as much right to express that view as anyone else - so perhaps another and more possibly constructive approach can be taken?

Answers to the 5 questions - posted earlier in the thread - would be a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:18 PM

But why not start a thread asking the questions, and put a link to it here, so that people who wanted to deal with the questions could do so there and people who wanted to get back to Barry Finn's thread could do so here? (Might be the same people even.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:13 PM

But why not start a thread asking the questions, and put a link to it here, so that people who wanted to deal with the questions could do so there and people who wanted to get back to Barry Finn's thread could do so here?

As there is nothing stoping folk from talking about hampsters in the BS thread you have suggested - there is also nothing stopping folk from discussing Barry's original document posted in this BS thread. Horses, bolting and stable doors kind also come to mind - . I have been asked questions in this thread from folk who do seem to think it OK to post them here - so it would seem to be sensible to answer them here also.

I have had, oh, three or four threads which I launched on this forum censored and removed in the past three years. (and I thought they were entirely harmless threads, and hopefully quite funny, which was how I intended them to be when I posted them). So?

You may well have just gone on to accept that Joe alone was entitled to use his personal value judgement to decide for others – what they may find offensive but are not contributors to this forum adult enough to make that decision for themselves? Especially, as there is now a separate BS section – set aside for such things - where anyone opening these threads will reasonable expect to find BS. If they then complain to Joe and Co that they are offended – why can they not simply inform them not to open the thread?

Every little bit of info adds to the evidence that will be news to many of the people who consider that our forum is something else than what it plainly is becoming and are defending the current system – on that basis. Also evidence to others who may not realise that others are sharing the experience of having their contributions censored and who also may disagree (at the time) with Joe and Co's opinion for taking this action.
Is it really so unreasonable to try and ensure that this censorship action is?
Understood (and hopefully agreed) by all the contributors.
Is limited - to where absolutely necessary.
Remains under tight control to ensure that it is not used as an excuse to shape our forum.

This to prevent others from feeling aggrieved now and in the future and to protect those who would volunteer to undertake this censorship.

Frank posts saying that he likes to think of the forum as democracy. Others don't go that far. Some talk of it being a 'benevolent dictatorship' (I suspect those who have not lived under a dictatorship). What is the other one? Oh yes and this is one Joe Offer has referred to – that of the forum being like 'controlled anarchy'. If you are the one(s) in control - I suppose that one might have a nice ring to it – for it basically means that YOU can do just as you please, with the contributions of others.

However, this is a privately owned website of which this part has been set aside contributions from the public and as been pointed out - our forum is not a state so none of these things – including being a fascist regime – are ever going to be exactly the case.

Sadly an objective view of our forum – especially the 'scapegoating' so graphically demonstrated, encouraged and tolerated in this thread, which shows the very worst aspect of our forum – would be that a review of how censorship should be undertaken – would be timely – if not already too late.

Time to ring some changes?

Requested by Joe Offer!
Written by Richard Thompson
Appears on Small Town Romance (1984)

This old house is a-tumbling down
The walls are gone but the roof is sound
The landlord's deaf, he can never be found
It's time to ring some changes

They'll arrest you son if you just stand still
They'll ask you to pose with your hand in the till
They'll ask you to die when you've written your will
It's time to ring some changes>Snip<

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 06:24 PM

"You may well have just gone on to accept that Joe alone was entitled to use his personal value judgement to decide for others..."

Not at all. I just accept the fact that life is not perfect, and I can't control everything.

Joe Offer is in some kind of official regulating position on this forum (which consumes some of his valuable time, I'm sure). I am not. I accept that I cannot control Joe Offer, nor can I control this forum, nor does it particularly worry me that I cannot always make things here exactly as I would like them to be.

How about you?

I understand your points, Shambles. I would rather those threads of mine had not been deleted...and I would have been happy to explain to certain aggrieved people who didn't like them what my intentions were...but...shrug! It just ain't that big a deal.

It seems to be a very big deal to you, though, and that's what puzzles me.

How about we just start a whole new thread about fascism in politics...and change the title on this one to something else? :-) Whaddya say, Joe?

We could also change the term "Guest" to read "beloved and well-respected friend of the forum" in all future cases of anonymous or named Guest postings.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 02:59 AM

I dunno. I'm still trying to figure out the part about the fraudulent erections. I can't stop laughing - but I'm not sure I understand what I'm laughing about.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:37 AM

Are we to have elections here then?

Joe Offer is in some kind of official regulating position on this forum (which consumes some of his valuable time, I'm sure). I am not. I accept that I cannot control Joe Offer, nor can I control this forum, nor does it particularly worry me that I cannot always make things here exactly as I would like them to be.
How about you?
I understand your points, Shambles. I would rather those threads of mine had not been deleted...and I would have been happy to explain to certain aggrieved people who didn't like them what my intentions were...but...shrug! It just ain't that big a deal.

Well it depends on where you are coming from and your expectations. I accept that I can't control Joe Offer or indeed anyone else, but have no wish to be controlled by Joe Offer or to have our forum governed by his personal taste. When I first started posting to our forum – Joe was already a 'volunteer' loaded with his edit button but used it mainly for 'tiding up'. He posted along with everyone else and tried to set an example by the manner of his posting - which was an excellent example and one and many of us were more than happy to follow and I was one of Joe's biggest fans.

However, this has slowly changed to one where judgement, editing, deletion and moving of other peoples contributions, without their permission has become routine and folk even post only to request that someone else's contribution be censored in some fashion. Everyone seems to want to judge everyone else's right to post and appears to be being encouraged to do this – by the example being set.

Your posts were deleted from our forum – it would seem purely on a question of taste - as Joe decided in advance of any complaint being made that someone may have been offended. Your posts may not have been to my personal tastes but as they were to your taste – I would probably been of the opinion that there would have been someone out there who shared your taste and that no one has to open every thread.

This current situation, where even BS contributions are censored because they do not conform to the personal tastes of Joe or the other volunteers – who are supposed to report to Joe before taking editing action but repeatedly do not - is not an example that I am happy to follow. If I had only just come across this site – I would quickly move on.

But I have not just arrived. I feel that along with many others I have made many positive contributions and that we can all take a certain pride in (plus a few not so positive ones).

For this is OUR forum – it is not Joe's and it should reflect all of our tastes – as it always has done and not just reflect the personal tastes of a few individuals who sit in judgement. If we don't like what we post, then it is up to us to address that – by simply not posting it. By not replying to and goading obvious trouble-makers and extending the life of the thread. By not wishing to deny the freedom to others – that we would wish to have ourselves, and so on.

I feel that it is indeed time to rings some changes and to see if our baby can be allowed to finally grow up and reflect all the contributions of ALL those that create it and enable us all to be proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:45 AM

Roger, in typical demagogic fashion, you have created a false premise and then try and cause folks to debate it so it becomes truth. It is not OUR forum. It is Max's forum. He pays the freight, he keeps the server running (a particularly tough problem these days), and he devotes the time. There is some financial support (Friends of Mudcat are doing a spectacular job), but the bottom line is that this is his baby. Not OURS. Quit trying to create a false predicate.

The Mudcat serves many purposes. One of those is that it seems to provide an outlet for your lack of other things in your life. Fair enough. But don't expect us to sit back and buy into your amateurish and childish schemes. You have had some issues (PEL, for example) that some of us agreed with you on. I even sent the requested emails on your behalf. But a broken clock is right twice a day. I would tell you to take a rest, but you thrive on that. So instead, I will just tell you that I understand your need for attention.

I sure wish you would get a lover, or a hobby, or something.....

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 10:21 AM

Rog, ya gotta get over this fraudulent We you keep using. That is what destroyed the Soviet Union, man. There is no "we" there. You keep flogging this thing and it keeps being dead and you keep flogging it. To the degree there is a reliable forum here, it does not come from nor belong to any "We". It comes from and belongs to Max and a few others who back him up. The good in it comes from individuals, as does all good.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 10:41 AM

As I have said before - The Mudcat IS Max's website. If he should wish to delete postings or to pull the plug altogether - it would be very sad but it would be a matter for him.

However, he has kindly given over this part of it for contributions from any members of the public who wishes to stop by and make one.

Reflecting his tastes - he would have preferred I am sure - more blues on our forum than being taken over by troublesome folkies - but he has rather allowed our forum reflect its contributions - especially with kindly also hosting the DT which also relies on contributions from the public. So, - we all (including Max) have OUR forum for our views (on Max's site).

What ever our forum is intended to be - I doubt that it was not intended to be a private club reflecting the tastes of only a small few volunteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 01:56 AM

And here I sit so patiently,
Waiting to find out what price,
Ya have to pay to get out of
Going through these things twice.

Thank you, Bobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 12:35 AM

Thanks Barry for posting the original message.

I think most folks are just sitting back and hoping the some gallant knight will come along to slay the dragon.

What we fail to understand is that we are feeding the dragon.

We are also the knight. Everyday. Stand up. Speak out. Tell people that its unjust. Tell people that it is unkind. Do it at home, at school, and in the workplace.

Shambles and Barry and everyone else. Its a good thing to create political controvery, however, one must always remember that divide and conquer is the best strategy of all when you want to control the people. Keep everyone at each other's throats so that they cannot recognize the real enemy.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST,GUEST, naive Shlio
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 09:09 AM

Mudcat's threads are down the sink
The clickies mke them interlinked
No more guffaws from onscreen wit
When you're not a member, these posts are sh*t

Those noble members,once admired
Now leave me feeling rather tired
They hijack threads such as these
And instead discuss 'Cat policies

The need for such posts is very clear
But I doubt the place for them is here
And though the discussion can get heated
Peoples' opinions are being repeated

Six months ago it didn't seem like this
But now when I scroll down the lists
So many seem to spend their time
Insulting others - perhaps in rhyme

Some deride guests, who merely seek facts
And some have questioned the wisdom of Max
A negative current is running through the scene
As innocent threads are used to vent spleen

Since this is my first post, I hope I've been moderate
(As it's doubtful I'll ever be a Poet Laureate)
I'm just concerned 'bout what Mudcat's coming to
And (to stay on the subject) 'bout the USA too.

Shlio

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 09:17 AM

And so, goodnight
Enough's more than enough.
We've all enjoyed this interlude
With less than pleasant stuff
We heard it out, replied and then
We've heard it once again
And it is plain, if we stood still
We'd hear it ten times ten!
So never fear, the noise is here
And if, for titillation,
You feel the need to renew this screed
Just come back to this station.
But otherwise, avert your eyes
From mental aggravation
And turn your mind to realler things,
To friendship, life and singing
There's grief enough in people's lives
Without all this hand-wringing.

A

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST,obnig hrobdog
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 04:58 PM

It looks mostly benevolent to me.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 05:36 PM

"It'd be a bit like responding to a poison-pen letter by sending a response with "Address Unknown" written on the envelope." -- McG of H, 20 Jan 04 - 01:30 PM

Well...perhaps the analogy would stand if one were sending a private communication.

In an open, public forum, however, an author assumes that more than one person (hopefully) will read his/her message/response. There's no need to know the address(es) of the recipient(s). People who are interested will read what you have to say...those who aren't interested, won't. In any event, it's there for everyone to see.

When opinions or thoughts or feelings are expressed, again, in an open, public forum, there's no need to know who sent the message, or the "address" of the person who sent the message: one chooses to read or not read the message; to let the message affect or not affect the reader; to agree or disagree with the opinions, thoughts, or feelings expressed, etc. In other words, one responds to what is being said, rather than who said it.

The date/time stamp serves a very useful purpose in this regard: it pinpoints exactly what one is responding to, regardless who said it.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 09:15 PM

""When opinions or thoughts or feelings are expressed, again, in an open, public forum, there's no need to know who sent the message

Except that the exact same words can mean very different things in different mouths. What looks like a compliment can be a putdown, and the reverse. We can normally tell the difference easily enough, when we have a context to put it in - in the case of the Mudcat that means previous posts from someone with a "name" we can recognise. (Or for that matter, just a push of the button, and we can see the previous posts they have made, to give us that context.)

But a GUEST without a handle, and every post they make stands completely alone. And even to reply to them we are liable to have to go though the ridiculous procedure of copying out dates and times, and anyone wanting to know which post it is we are responding to, so as to be able to make sense of what we are saying, has to do the same...Imposing that on other people, without a very good reason, does not, to me, seem like courteous behaviour.

(Obviously no one cares a straw about the actual identity in the real world of anyone posting here who doesn't want to share that information - but that is a completely different thing. My analogy was an analogy.)

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 11:59 PM

McGrath, and I (and many others) have made this point over & over & over until we are blue in the face.

NO ONE is trying to find out who you are! Nor would the courtesy of using a consistent name compromise your true identity, even without being a member and having a cookie. Yes..it is possible to have something important to say without being identified, but as McGrath just said, people respond to other people and comprehend each other best in context. If you, Mr./Ms Anonymous Guest, were to start receiving typed notes taped to your door everyday, with various critiques of your life, wouldn't YOU wonder if it was just one grumpy neighbor, or 27 people?

If you don't like my analogy, just imagine the chaos HERE...right here in Mudcat, if NO ONE signed posts! The coherence of the forum would disappear overnight! Sometimes I attempt to answer a post, and 2-3 others have been made while I type, and my reply has to be read carefully, and often make sense only because I refer to the poster in my response. If there IS no name, it gets really confusing.

Put a bit differently, the only reason YOU are able to get away with it is that most do do it!...It is like littering or stealing...if only a few do it, it is tedious, but managable--if everyone does it, it is serious!.

Various 'guests' (well, maybe is is 'various...who knows?) talk about
how badly they are treated and are subjected to insults,etc....fascinating! A group of shadow posters create a problem, then complain when anyone mentions the problem!

Get this straight...it is just plain rude to claim special privileges for yourself(s) under these circumstances! The "guest" situation was not created to allow what you are doing....it was a way for newcomers to start out, or for situations such as lost cookies, or for those who need for a VERY GOOD REASON to post about a personal matter temporarily.....or just for fun, like the "secret Santa" game.

It is rude, presumptive and selfish to refuse to use ANY name! I DO NOT CARE if you are a 'member'...just adopt some way to keep guests A-Z apart!!!!!

(oh, did I mention?, it pisses me off royally?!) ah...there, I feel better for having finally said it.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:28 AM

Shambels-Why dont you just fuck ff and stop moaning?
.john

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:31 AM

ps=everybody likes this site exept you, just shut up, and stop moaning.

anyway=, you pissing me off, i;m going to find out were you live and put some hamster shit through your letter box if you dont stop moaning.john

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:35 AM

that told him!

maybe he stops moaning now?

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 06:12 AM

It is rude, presumptive and selfish to refuse to use ANY name! I DO NOT CARE if you are a 'member'...just adopt some way to keep guests A-Z apart!!!!!

Bill - That is your opinion and you are welcome to express it - there may even be some logical sense to it - but it is no more valid an opinion that another member or a guest (named or not) expressing a different one.

Is it not also "rude and presumptive" for a invited GUEST like you to insist or demand over many years - that other invited guests conform to YOUR rules?

Our host's rules are different and as you proudly point out to me that I don't accept these rules and you do - perhaps you can start to demonstrate this?

Until Max changes the rules - this remains a forum that is open to contributions from anyone who wishes to make one - using a name or not.

Bill if YOU don't like these rules perhaps it is you who should change your view or stop posting to a site where you have so much trouble with the rules of our host?

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 06:39 AM

Those interested in the 'Guest' debate can find plenty of more on the following recent threads

This one is where a member was (wrongly) accused (by one of the volunteers) of making anonymous abusive postings.
Guest postings

GUEST a Mudcat euphemism for …?

This one contains some poetry.
On the cowardly nature of GUEST postings

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 06:52 AM

Funny how GUESTS keep trying to play "Piggy In The Middle" with us isn't it? And how clever they are at pushing the buttons of someone who they have sussed out is very sensitive on certain subjects...

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 08:31 AM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz------ *Smiles*

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 09:21 AM

"If it's legal than there's nothing wrong with it and you shouldn't criticise it" is really an argument that doesn't stand up. Noone would want to make good manners enforceable by law, but that doesn't mean that they aren't bad manners.

Bill D's point about how, if everyone posted as nameless GUEST the forum would just cease to have any meaningful existence, is an argument that should settle things.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 09:44 AM

In your opinion, it should settle things McGrath, but it never will. Why? Because until Max bans anonymous guest posting, you are screaming into the wind, annoying everyone, and never getting any satisfaction for it. You bitch and bitch and bitch and bitch and bitch. In fact, it seems as if that is all you and some infamous other Mudcat members, ever do around here.

Shambles and others have pointed out that if members here have such a profound discomfort level with anonymous posting in this forum, they should resolve their discomfort and stop coming. Find a forum which doesn't allow it, rather than going on and on and on and on (FOR YEARS NOW!!!) haranguing people who post here, just to tell us you don't like anonymous posting. WE REALLY GET THAT YOU DON'T LIKE ANONYMOUS POSTING. So why do you keep nagging about it like a nasty ole mother-in-law who is never pleased? Give it a rest, will you?

As Shambles says, the owner of this forum allows anonymous posting. Don't like a forum that allows anonymous posting? Go somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:11 AM

Guest:

Anonymous postings are not the problem. Shambles' postings are -- or could be -- quite anonymous, as there is no person named Shambles. But the consistency of his use of a handle makes it understandable that one is hearing from someone rather than anyone. It makes no difference until you start slinging invective from the shelter of namelessness, which poisons the whole atmosphere because it feels like it could be coming from anywhere. It's quite destructive enough to sling vitriol and ill-formed antagonism, but to do so namelessly is twice as destructive. You don't recognize this -- or let it seem that you do not, anyway. Having to resort to that sort of stuff is not crafty, IMNSHO -- it is dishonorable.

A

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:23 AM

Oh thanks so much, Amos. I really needed your sanctimonous response to fuel the...

bitch, bitch, bitch about anon posting posts...

whine, whine, whine about anon posting posts...

yet another lecture, lecture, lecture about anon posting...

yet another one of your holier-than-thou attempts to admonish, admonish, admonish anyone who disagrees with your opinion about anon posting in a forum where anon posting is the default setting...

yet another effort by you to shame and humiliate, shame and humiliate, shame and humiliate anon posters and those who disagree with your opinion about anon posting...

Everyone here at Mudcat really needed you to say that shit one more time. I don't think we got the message the first 50,000 times you said it.

Could you please nag and whine at all of us again? I don't think anyone, member or guest, has heard enough of you, McGrath, BillD, etc. bitch about this subject yet.

Could you also start another thread about the horrors of having to co-exist with those who dare post anonymously? I don't think we've had enough of those yet either.

And while you are sanctimoniously subjecting the forum to your pet peeve tirades, wouldn't you please also start another flame thread targeting Shambles? I think the old ones might just be in danger of fading away.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:31 AM

Notice how Janet has skillfully turned the argument around, even using the "if you don't like it, leave" tactic? And notice the bait for Amos? She is now trying to "push the buttons". You are good, but I wonder what it is in your life that has made you so miserable? Sometimes you post so well, other times you just need to be nasty. I wonder if you are like this in real life, or if it is just you using the internet to exercise your inner self.

Mick

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST,c.sparra
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:39 AM

I thought I was keeping up with this, but who is Janet? Now I'm confused.

Don't knock McG, OK he has a bee in his bonnet over this, but he speaks excellent sense on everything else IMHO.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:45 AM

She's also completely inverting what I was saying while pretending to be arguing about it.

I'd like to invite her to piss up a rope but it might be a physical impossibility in her case.

A

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:46 AM

Oh good, it's the "Fall on my Sword for Mudcat" savior, come to piss on the posts of the evildoer Janet.

This should get the Sunday 'flame the guest' wars going again.

Please Big Mick, won't you tell us more about how this anon guest poster you so love to hate, really and truly pisses you off and causes you to get your shorts in a bundle? I don't think the forum has heard enough from you on this subject yet either. Maybe you, Amos, McGrath, BillD, and a few more sanctimonious Mudcat windbags could get wound up, and turn this into a proper bitch and flame fest now? It is so dull around here on Sundays, after all.

I do so love hearing about all of your pet peeves. Anon posting, someone named Janet, the detested Shambles...

Big Mick, won't you please tell us where your arch nemesis Janet lives, works, and has her hair done? Maybe where her kids go to school, so we can target them. As soon as we find out where she works, we can send nasty emails to her employer and get her fired. And it would be really great if you could post her bank information too, so we can empty her accounts and send the proceeds to Max, so he can upgrade the system. We just know you know all this stuff about the Mudcat evildoer Janet, and enquiring Mudcat minds really want more of this shit from you, oh great avenger of wounded Mudcat egos.

That's the spirit folks! A good Sunday flamefest is just what we need to chase cabin fever away.

Please, start some more bitch about this and that and him and her threads. The rest of us really can't get enough of reading about Amos, McGrath, BillD, and Big Mick's pet peeves and most reviled posters. We really do want to hear, for the millioneth time, all about the things that really annoy you here at Mudcat. We never tire of your tirades.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:54 AM

New around here, Guest c.sparra?

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:56 AM

Folks, the last post is from the same person. I just thought, after she decided to try and bait Amos with the "hot button" strategy, that I would turn it around on her. As you can see, I was successful.

There is only one way for the flame war to start. That is if you keep it going. I love your gall. You lay out the trolling bait, someone calls you on it and you rant about sanctimonius windbags. Apparently it is OK with you as long as you are allowed to have your way. I would bet your Father spoiled you as a child.

As far as all the rest of the ridiculous crap you suggest, it is just more of you trying to turn it. You are not worth the effort it would take to find out the things you suggest, though most of it is possible with posts on any website. I am not interested in ruining your life, but I am interested in you stopping the crap you spread. In the past, I have asked you to try and work this stuff out. You choose not to, and that is your right. My right is to expose your bullying ways. The only thing I need to push your buttons is take away your anonymity. And you just proved it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST,c.sparra
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:00 PM

Yes and even more confused now.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:06 PM

C. Sparra:

Let's just say a lot of history exists with one poster (appearing above as Guest) who has used a lot of handles but constantly seeks to stir up and worsen things on the forum. So what you're seeing here is just the latest chapter. One of her names is Janet.

A

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:09 PM

And Big Mick comes out guns a-blazin'!!!

So, the score so far...

McGrath finds anon posting rude, and never misses the opportunity to say so.

Amos finds anon posting rude, and never misses the opportunity to say so.

BillD finds anon posting rude, and never misses the opportunity to say so.

Big Mick loves to flame an anon poster he keeps referring to as 'Janet', and never misses the opportunity to say so.

Everyone here at Mudcat really appreciates the fact that we can ALWAYS count on these guys to give us all a sanctimonious lecture about their pet Mudcat peeves. People constantly post their thanks to these fellas for telling us, over and over and over and over and over and over, all about the posters who consistently use the forum default setting to post.

The reason everyone here at Mudcat appreciates these Mudcat giants going on and on and on and on about anonymous posting/posters (besides the fact that we love their sanctimoniousness so), is because we just can't get enough of their lecturing us about the evils associated with this practice because we just know it is 'for our own good' and 'for posterity sake'.

So please Mudcat windbags who love to lecture the rest of us on the proper way to behave...carry on with the bitchfest!

Let's see now, this thread is at about 120 posts around noon Mudcat time. I'll bet we can wind up this bitchfest and get to 150 posts by 6 pm, doncha think?

Let's hear more from those of you who haven't let everyone in this forum know how much you hate us posters using the default setting to post, for say...a day or two at least. Of course we know how McGrath, Big Mick, Amos, and BillD feel about me and Shambles. But how about the rest of you?

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST,c.sparra
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:10 PM

Thanks Amos.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:21 PM

Dear GUEST:

No -- Amos finds rude postings rude. I have seen hundreds of perfectly decent and interesting anonymous postings. Why don't you get this straight? How many times should it be repeated before you understand the point instead of twisting it for the worse?    Are you trying to communicate, or not?

A

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:23 PM

"I am not interested in ruining your life, but I am interested in you stopping the crap you spread."

Ooooohhhh, Big Mick---Janet just LOVES it when you try and discipline her like that!

Spank me, spank me...I love it when you spank me when the whole forum is watching like this.

Is it good for you too, Big Mick? I get so hot for you when you try and make me your bitch--your awesome, manly power just oozes authority. Authority that makes me want to bad for you.

Please, please, please don't stop--don't stop--don't stop--spank...spank...spank...

Ooooohhhh...I love you, Big Dick. Ah, I mean Big Mick.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:47 PM

"How many times should it be repeated before you understand the point instead of twisting it for the worse?"

Slow learner, ain't ya Amos?

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:04 PM

"How many times should it be repeated before you understand the point instead of twisting it for the worse?"

"Slow learner, ain't ya Amos?"

He ain't the only one who hasn't figured out you understand the point perfectly, but it's just not fun for you. I detect far less irony in the 'spank me' post than I think I'm supposed to.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:54 PM

Good folk - for all the right reasons - doing the wrong thing - still results in the wrong thing being done.

Using the tactics of the bully to protect us from the bully - just results in more bullying.

Perhaps it is time for those who volunteer to protect us - to change these tactics? Or is all really just too much fun?

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 06:08 PM

After all, they ARE failing miserably at keeping the forum safe from the likes of me.

But I'm sure everyone appreciates the Mudcat Royal Knighthood's bitchy cat fights. So many members are rushing into this very thread, right now, as we speak, to thank McGrath, Amos, BillD, and Big Mick for fighting yet another good ole bitchy cat fight in their defense, by pointing out again and again and again that they personally are not so very fond of anon posting/posters. And doing it day in, day out, year in, year out...

After all, we do see SO MANY members begging them ALL THE TIME to please tell the forum all about why they don't like rude anon posters--just one more time, pretty please with sugar on top.

I always see a lot of posts from members thanking those guys when they go off on their tirades, start their "in defense of Mudcat" flamefests, or hijack threads, just so they can bitch some more about their pet peeve/most hated poster.

But mostly, I just find it hilarious when Big Mick thinks he has detected a nasty from the evildoer Janet. You can just see his face going all apoplectically red, see him puffin' his chest up and stickin' out that arrogant chin, struttin' around pissin' on posts in defense of all that is sacred and holy at Mudcat.

Damn, I just am so impressed by those sorts of things.

And I'm sure it makes everybody sleep safer at night, knowing that the Big Mick is keeping the Mudcat safe from the evildoer Janet. Sort of. Not really, but it seems to make HIM feel better, and that's all that matters.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:30 PM

I drop in here (to this thread, I mean) very occasionally, just to get a cheap laugh and see if the soccer war is still raging. These silly bitching threads are clearly a source of fascination to somebody...that's why they keep going and going and going. Like I said, good for a laugh every day or so.

Remember that Dylan line: "meantime life outside goes along all around you" It does.

"you lose yourself, you reappear, you suddenly find you've got nothing to fear, alone you stand with nobody near when a trembling distant voice unclear startles your sleeping ears to hear that somebody thinks they've really found you. A question in your nerves is lit, yet you know there is no answer fit, to satisfy, ensure you not to quit, to keep it in your mind and not forget that it is not he or she or them or it that you belong to."

Given that this thread and its "ilk" (in joke: see the MOAB) are an echo of nothingness in a void of tortured mental egos, I will probably not get to see any witty response that this post may draw forth in reaction...if it even does. (shrug)

No, I will be enjoying some other thread that's more fun or playing my guitar or reading a book. See you in a day or so, I guess. Over the top, lads!!! We'll take their bloody trenches this time!

Bon chance.

- LH

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 12:49 AM

Okay, so perhaps an assessment is in order, due to the number of stated reasons why nameless GUEST posts are discouraged:

What looks like a compliment can be a putdown, and the reverse. We can normally tell the difference easily enough, when we have a context to put it in - in the case of the Mudcat that means previous posts from someone with a "name" we can recognise. (Or for that matter, just a push of the button, and we can see the previous posts they have made, to give us that context.) --McG of Harlow, 24 Jan 04 - 9:15PM.

McGrath wants a "history" that goes with a consistent name so he can suss out the kind of "spin" a regular contributor normally puts on his/her remarks. Point taken. But if a contributor is worth his/her salt, s/he will be conscientious in crafting his/her post so as to avoid any misinterpretation or confusion. Experience - and sometimes unfortunate mistakes - are the best teacher in this regard. It's sort of akin to reading a book for the first time by an unknown author: without any prior experience, you have to rely on the writer's expertise in conveying irony, satire, etc. If the writer is no good, the audience misinterprets these elements. If the writer knows his/her stuff, it won't be hard to discern when irony or satire or sarcasm is being used. Often, GUEST postings are so direct there's little or no room for misinterpretation. Ultimately, the burden of responsibility lies with the originator of the post to convey precisely what it is s/he wants to say. That's something no one else can control.

**********************************************************************

It is rude, presumptive and selfish to refuse to use ANY name! I DO NOT CARE if you are a 'member'...just adopt some way to keep guests A-Z apart!!!!! ...(oh, did I mention?, it pisses me off royally?!) --Bill D, 24 Jan 04 - 11:59PM

Bill D doesn't care about the what; he just cares about the who. He wants a way to tell one GUEST posting from another, and thinks it's ill-mannered to type out something without signing a name to it.

The poem "Beowulf" was written by an anonymous poet; knowing or not knowing who wrote it doesn't have a direct bearing on one's own opinions of the poem. Nor is it necessary to distinguish it from other anonymous works. And it is fruitless to ponder whether the short stories "The Pipe" and "The Puzzle" were or were not written by the same person. What does it matter? Knowing or not knowing who wrote something - eventually what one winds up responding to is the what.

Not that I'm comparing an open forum post to a work of art such as a short story or poem, but obviously unnamed GUESTs don't care who writes what. Maybe Max could get a university grant from a sociology department to study what would happen to the group dynamic if no one signed their posts, as you suggested. One other GUEST posting I'm aware of, has made the same suggestion some time ago. It would be interesting to see what form of "chaos" evolved over the course of time. Of course, GUESTs, like cockroaches, would survive it. ;-)

And Jesu' Christo Bill, did you have to announce to the world how much it pisses you off that GUESTs don't sign a name? If they didn't before, every troller and flamer has got your number now. I thought long ago you had sworn off acknowledging this anonymous crap anyway.

**********************************************************************

It makes no difference until you start slinging invective from the shelter of namelessness, which poisons the whole atmosphere because it feels like it could be coming from anywhere. It's quite destructive enough to sling vitriol and ill-formed antagonism, but to do so namelessly is twice as destructive. --Amos, 25 Jan 04 - 11:11AM

and

No -- Amos finds rude postings rude. I have seen hundreds of perfectly decent and interesting anonymous postings. Why don't you get this straight? --Amos, 25 Jan 04 - 12:21PM

Got it, Amos. Probably Amos would rather a GUEST sign a name, but if the post follows the guidelines of civility, he's not going to lose sleep over an anonymous, unnamed contribution.

**********************************************************************

Three different people, three different reasons why anonymous postings are frowned upon. My point is GUESTs aren't going to stop posting anonymously on their own, regardless how many reasons there are to do so. And painstakingly illustrating this must mark me as the penultimate example of insanity that Einstein defined - you know... about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

"May no portent of evil be attached to the words I say." --Anonymous

Peace, goodnight.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 05:12 PM

Bitching threads are so much fun -
Barrels of spite for everyone!
Janet (to me) remains unknown
And some feel invaded by GUEST clones.
Some despise 'Cat "Royalty", it's clear
But...I don't see too many here.
I agree it's nice to know a name;
Anonymous bile is such a shame
So I'm off to join "Royalty", no less
In discussing music and true BS.
I'll drop in in a day or two
To see if a result has been found by you
In the meantime, you have fun
And post opinions about everyone.

Shlio

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 07:22 PM

To Whom It May Concern:

Thank you for fixing the HTML faux pas in my post.

---

You're quite welcome, GUEST! --JoeClone

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 02:21 AM

Amos says on the following thread.
Are we still having fun as fascists yet
The actual problem is when a corporation grows so large that it cannot communicate coherently and an individual can no longer feel he can communicate with the top. At that point, dehumanization occurs and all the ills of corporatism begin to set in.

Perhaps this process of "dehumanization" is not just brought on by growth? Perhaps this can also be brought on by an organisation or 'system' being founded on a mistaken or false premise and defended on this?

Joe Offer on the Shambles can you help?

It seems to me that oftentimes, the stongest advocates of anarchy are the ones who want to take over, enthroning themselves as petty tyrants. Funny thing - the strongest advocates of control have the same goals. And those of us in the middle often seem to lose out in this polarized world.

If people make criticism, suggestions and ask perfectly reasonable questions on our forum – are viewed as wishing to 'take over' and they are NOT anarchists who would wish to do this but are just 'in the middle' making criticism of both extremes– the whole premise on which the current censorship regime is operating is a false premise.

Then those that are being "dehumanized" by the 'system' are the ones 'in the middle'.

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:08 PM

Anything can be twisted or altered.

A

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:39 PM

Anything can be twisted or altered.

That is rather the point. Has the open discussion forum been altered into a chance for us all sit in judgement on the value of other's contributions and for some to act on that judgement?

Some bloke said somethng about some animals being more equal than others. Do we have people contributing to our forum as equals?

1 - Some choose to contribute as nameless guests who can't send personal messages - They are rather encouraged - by the example set -to pass judgement on the value of other's postings but can't take editng action based on that judgement.

2 - Some choose to contribute as named guests who can't send personal messages.
They are rather encouraged - by the example set - to pass judgement on the value of other's postings but can't take editng action based on that judgement.

3 - Some choose to contribute as members who can send personal messages.
They are rather encouraged - by the example set - to pass judgement on the value of other's postings but can't take editng action based on that judgement.

4 - Some volunteer to contribute as members who can send personal messages.
They are rather encouraged - by the example set - to pass judgement on the value of other's postings and CAN and DO take editing action based on that judgement.

5 - Some volunteers who set the example for others to follow appear to wish to be able to do exactly anything they please.

6 - There is Max - who can do as he pleases - which is OK - as he does own the place and has given us ALL the opportunity to cock it all up.

Evil fascists at work? No just good folk - working for all the best reasons. The end result however, is that some of us appear to be more than willing to volunteer to deny a freedom to others - that we ourselves take for a right. I also suspect there will be no shortage of these willing volunteers

And this is all done to prevent these terrible "petty tyrants" from being able to "take over"............

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 10:20 PM

SGhamblrs-SHGUT UP!, you bloddy gettong on my nerves and pissimg me off, alwayts moaningf , blar, blar, blar, 2its not fare, they all picking on me etc, you like bloofy spolit little kid, this site been like this all the time, all the other people domnet moan, , thiis is good wevbsite, you moan too much.

if you got plenty spare time , whyy dont you help people?
i give you sonme iudeas=you can deliber meals to old folks, [meels om weals], do gardeming for them, help disabled people, work in kids centre [playgroup], or youth group, or hopsital or citizen advice place [i cant spell buroo], i reckon you be good at citizen advice place, loads of thgjing you could do, and they aprercicaire you helping and doing it, nobody apreshiates you moaning here, you just pissing them off.john

ps=thhis is my opiniom, if you dont like it, im not bithered.jpohn

Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 10:24 PM

ps, you could take old people dog for a walk, loads of thingd like thats, but you wont , bexause you like moaning to mucjh..