Release of Nic Jones 2nd album

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 02:42 AM

And so it goes on.......and on.....!

Topic records have played fair by Nic. I understand that before they released Game,Set,Match, some sort of advance was offered, which enabled Nic to get his knee sorted out.

Jolly good too.

As for the rest of the lost albums, I'm still hopeful that they will appear one day, hopefully before we're all dead.

Applying pressure on Mr Bulmer seems to be futile.

It seems that the milk of human kindness is not a concept of which he is aware.

BTW, Look out for a retrospective release of Tony Rose's output coming shortly, produced by his family. Should be good'un.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: JHW
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 04:59 AM

Phil Edwards - I can cassette tape you those three from vinyl if we agree something you send to Nic as thanks. John

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:22 PM

Send Nic the price of a pint, he'll really appreciate that :-)

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:15 PM

The third and fourth aren't available on CD-R, although the third is downloadable if you know where to look. I wouldn't have any compunction about downloading the first two - which *are* available on CD-R - because I'm aware that none of the purchase price would find its way to Nic, or for that matter to Bill Leader (maybe I should bung him the price of a pint too...).

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:21 PM

Phil, I was made aware, by my niece ,about the so-called availibility of Nic's first four records in CD-R form, all I can say is, stay right away from them and anyone that stocks them.. I must admit, I am fortunate to own a copy of The Noahs Ark Trap on vinyl, amazing record.:-)

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:17 PM

All well and good, DS, but I'm talking about Nic's first four albums:

Ballads and Songs
Nic Jones
The Noah's Ark Trap
From the Devil to a Stranger

B&S and NJ are available in the form of CD-Rs sold by Dave Bulmer; I understand that Nic isn't getting any royalties on these. TNAT and FTDTAS are not available in any form.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

Six CD's and one music book are available from Nic and Julia at Mollie Music via Nic's website.

Order Here

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Surreysinger
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

Just one unworkable thing about that nice idea JHW, of course... those are the CDs which Nic is unable to offer for sale, as has been discussed on SO many earlier occasions.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,JHW in the library
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:17 AM

Whats wrong with buying your CDs straight freom Nic at http://www.nicjones.net/hats.htm

I can understand why he puts them out himself. I just looked in HMV for Leonard Cohen and found only two categories, Rock+Pop or Classical so I left. Mainstream shops aren't interested.

John

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:57 AM

It's a double edged sword.

On the one hand if you do that at least Nic will get a few quid.

On the other, he's not necessarily authorised illegal downloads of his music (though in other cases some bloggers have been given the nod to to upload OOP albums by the artists concerned on the QT).

There is also an argument that if you make an OOP album available for free, its less likely to be made available commercially in the future - because half the people who might buy it have already downloaded it. And for every decent cove like Phil who'll bung Nic his due, there's plenty of others who won't.

Having said that, if the owner of the rights to the album continues to refuse to give it an above board reissue (and no reissue of any sort for albums three and four), no wonder others choose to take the decision out of his hands.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM

Some (not all) of the 'lost' albums have been uploaded to the Net by public-spirited individuals. Does the same protocol apply, do you think - feel free to download, but send Nic a cheque?

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 08:05 AM

Try searching on the Gemm data base ( www.gemm.com ) or Netsounds (www.netsounds.com) for sellers of Nic Jones / Trailer / Leader CDs some of the UK dealers there may be able to supply with trade discount

LL

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 10:50 AM

Well, I'll stand by my offer to send a generous royalty cheque to Nic if I can sell any of the Leader releases. Does anybody have an URL or phone number for Leader (Celtic)? CAMSCO can't afford to buy them retail and sell them at a reasonable price, and Musikfolk --who seems to be the only ones who carry them--won't give me a trade discount.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:17 AM

LL, I couldn't agree more. I always make a point of buying direct from the artist whenever possible.

Not only do they get a better deal but you also get a chance to tell them personally how much you admire their work and to ask them questions about sources and technique.

You could also get the cover signed, if you're into that....

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:59 AM

48 pence per disc seems to be about the average. However royalty rates that were negotiated 30 years ago are often diabolically low. I have a good friend who made a number of albums for Decca during the period 1969 - 75. At the time, his rate was ok, however since the advent of CD, contracts have been re-written. Where as at one time, he got aprox 15% of the wholesale price. (ie the price the label sold to distributors), he now gets 15% of the "accounting" price.
This is a con where by Universal (who now own the Decca back catalogue) use there own in house distribution and sell to themselves at a ridiculously low price, of which he gets 15%
The bottom line is that he now gets something like 5p per CD sold !
Universal are unwilling to discus / negotiate. The Musicians Union will not intervene. The only option ios to take Universal to court. This immediately runs into the problem of hiring a barrister, etc which is phenomonly expensive.
In comparrison to this, the Topic / Nic Jones royalties seem excellent.
Wherever possible, please try to buy direct from the artist or their own on line site. At least then, they will get a return on their talent. I know this isnt always possible, but it p*sses me off to think that the record labels / distibutors and shops make more from the sale of a CD than the actual artist who recorded it.

LL

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 07:07 PM

It would be interesting to see a pie-chart detailing who gets how much of the pie. 48p does seem a bit low, but then I am not in the business, so I don't know if this is fair or typical. The important thing, from my point of view, is for these CDs to be in the CD racks and listed in Amazon. This is how people get to know of the existance of these recordings. I must admit, I very rarely go to live concerts, so if I had to rely on CDs being sold exclusively at concerts, I would probably not have most of the CDs I have now. Those that I have seen, I have gone because I have their recordings. I wonder how many people will never get to enjoy the delights of 'Unearthed' or 'In search of Nic Jones' because they are not available on Amazon or in HMV stores?

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:07 PM

The artist's royalty is calculated as a percentage of the price the record company gets for it (whether gross or net I wouldn't know). Remember that mark-ups put on the price by retailers, and the 17.5% VAT (sales tax) are not part of the equation. Taking all that into account, 48p per unit is probably about the usual rate. Topic Records are not considered exploitative, so far as I know, by those who record for them.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 06:43 PM

The normal royalty rate in the US is 5% of the list price.Dunno what it is in the UK, but 48 p sounds a bit low, but not by a hell of a lot. The sad truth of folk CDs is that the only way for an artist to make any money from them is to hawk them at concerts. Profits there range from 200 to 400% of cost. With very rare exceptions, trying to live off royalties is an exercise in pure futility.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:41 PM

Back at home - and I find that the figure quoted was (as JJ put it)'about 48p per CD' - that's what goes to Nic from Topic. Hmmmmm. HFA

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 10:54 AM

What a brilliant idea Duncan. I think if someone else want a copy we arrange for a copy to be sent and forward the relevant subcsription to Nic & Julia. Perhaps Joe could organise a link.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 10:46 AM

Ah dear Penguin Egg - we meet again!
Topic eh?
Only last year, I wanted to obtain a copy of 'PE' for a friend, Julia Jones told me how many pence (yes, pence!) Nic gets for each copy Topic sells of Penguin Eggs. I haven't the exact figure to hand - her email is on my PC at home - I'll post it here when I get home later.
Dismayed by the pathetic sum they'd receive, I 'may' (stress - 'may') have burned a copy from my legit CD - sent that to my friend - and a promptly sent a cheque for £10 to the Jones household - a far better outcome to help 'keep up the Jones' wouldn't you say.
I 'may' get sworn at too d'ya think? HFA.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:51 PM

I wonder what they do with all their profits then? :-)
LL

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 04:52 AM

Well they are...or were.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 04:41 AM

Maybe they objected to topic being called communists?

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 06:27 PM

Something I said?

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 03:06 PM

Penguin Egg

Two words: Piss Off

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 03:01 PM

Well Ralphie and Lancashire Lad, you seem to know the couple in person, so who am I to disagree, but from what Lancashire Lad says, royalties will be going back to Nic, it is only a question of how much. This does partly put my mind at rest. I trust Nic and Julia get royalties for "Penguin Eggs." I mean that is owned by Topic and they are a bunch of communists, aren't they, so he should do.

By the way Ralphie, the "Unearthed" double CD was excellent, as was "In Search of Nic Jones." In both cases, I loved the layouts and the sleeve notes, an exercise on how these things should be done. I see that you have a name check for your "constructive input", etc. I hope you got your kitkat.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Ralphie
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 09:58 AM

Dick G.
Your kind offer of forwarding money to Nic is well intended I'm sure, and a good idea to boot. Thanks for that.
I still cannot, for the life of me, understand why Mr B doesn't come up with a deal for all his albums, with the relevant artists.
What is there to lose?
Everybody makes some money. (Not much, we're talking Folk Music here after all!) And Dave gets the Kudos for having looked after the Master Tapes for so many years...and everyone gets off his back..!!
He can then go "Legit" again, and not have to resort to flogging CDR's made in Brazil (or wherever) out of the back of a (virtual) van.
Then our friends like Mr Egg (Great name...where did that come from!?), can just pop down to their local record shop and spend their money, knowing that all is ship shaped and bristol fashioned, and that everybody gets their fare share. Artists, Record Company, Tax man (Grrrr!)

How difficult can it be?

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 08:52 AM

Hi all just a few comments here on the topics of CDRs, royalties, Nic Jones and the MCPS

I believe that Celtic Music have been sending royalty cheques for these 2 re-issues. However Julia isn't cashing them as she is trying to negotiate with Dave Bulmer over increased royalty payments or the buying back of Nic's back catalogue. To cash the cheques would weaken her legal case I believe.

To answer someones questions earlier in the thread. Yes Celtic Music / Dave Bulmer do own most of Nic's back catalogue. It's not just Nics work, but ALL the Trailer / Leader titles. (Also all labels Black Crow, Making Waves, Mulligan, Greenwich Village, Broadside and many many more)

I dont know about anyone else, but If I decided not to own any titles owned by or distributed by Celtic Music, I would have a very slim CD collection! As much as many will not like to hear it, we should maybe stand back and think sometimes before we let fly with criticism. There are a lot of albums that I would never have been able to purchase on CD without CM making them available again.

MCPS logos mean nothing when it comes to proving royalties have been paid. I have just checked some albums in my collection by artists such as Kate Rusby, Shirley Collins, Incredible String Band, Bert Jansch, Maddy Prior. (None of these are owned by CM) but none contain the MCPS logo. however as tracks have been broadcast on BBC radio they will all be registered with PRS and MCPS. On the opposite side of things, I recently picked up a definite bootleg of some Sandy Denny material and the CD did contain an MCPS logo!!

Regarding CDRs. Unless you get a particularly shoddy one, I doubt most listeners could tell CD from CDR. The days of blue / green backed "home" CDRs has gone. Most commercial CDRs are near identical to "true" CDs. Providing care is taken with the recording and manufacture they seem to be just as good. I've had some music CDRs in my collection for nearly 10 years and they sound just as good today as they did then.

Just a few thoughts

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Ralphie
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 05:59 AM

Guest Mr Egg.
Please believe me. N&J get NO, I repeat NO! royalty payments from Celtic Music.
Why do you think we did the "Unearthed" project?
Why did Tony Rose re record his earlier songs for CD release just before his sad demise?
Why did the Bright Phoebus crew re record their CD last year?
As for sueing Mr B... Just do a Mudcat search on Neil Sharpley for the answer. Basically, nobody can afford to take that risk.
Best Wishes
Ralphie (If you want to buy the CM versions of Nics albums, I'll leave it to you as to whether you want to send some cash to Nic....He won't get anything from CM, thats for sure!)

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 03:48 AM

PayPal are bigger rogues than Dave Bulmer. They take a hefty percentage of each transaction. I'd rather send a cheque. However, I still don't believe Nic wont get anything from the sales of his own CDs. Bulmer's "crime" so far has been sitting on the masters and not releasing them. Nothing else. As the owner of the masters, he can do what he likes with them. Moral obligation to the artists is not covered by the law. Now that Bulmer has begun releasing them, he has to pay royalties, doesn't he. Nic and Julia can take him to court if he doesnt it. I must admit, I am totally ignorant about the law.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,Piers
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 03:26 AM

I wonder if Nic, or a trusted third party, has a paypal account; this would seem to be an ideal use for one.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 10:50 AM

Thanks for the reply John from Hull, but I do know the whole sorry story. However, if Bulmer is legitimately re-releasing Nic's recordings, then he has to pay royalties? I thought that was the law, unless, of course, Nic has signed over the copyrights to someone else? If this is not the case, then I shall buy the CDs anyway (I just gotta have them) and send a seperate cheque to the Joneses'.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 10:23 AM

My apologies, Dick. Your second post slipped in while I was writing mine. That seems a generous offer.

However, if what you say about contractual obligations is the case, it is Dave Bulmer's motives and integrity you should be scrutinising, not Bill Leader's.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 10:16 AM

Please see my second post (above). When a company goes bankrupt and assets are sold, contractual obligations go with those assets. I've seen entirely too many cases where a younger artist forfeits all rights to the publisher (the Kossoy Sister's "Bowling Green" comes to mind), and, as I said, I'm not privy to contractual details.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 10:08 AM

Dick

I'm not sure that it's relevant or fair to bring Bill Leader into this and quote contractual agreements between artists and Leader/Trailer Records.

Ralphie may know more about this than I do but my understanding is that when Bill went bankrupt, the company assets were sold off in the usual way to the highest bidder, which happened, unfortunately, to be Celtic Music.

I think Camsco still needs to consider very carefully whether it wants to collude in the apparent ripping off of artists. As do those who just want to own bits of recorded material, without regard for the artiists' rights and livelihoods. How would you feel about working for nothing?

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 09:57 AM

Just a thought. If I can obtain copies of the two Leader releases at a less-than-extreme price, I'll personally send Nic a royalty cheque for all that I sell. Royalties (standard) are 5% of list price, which comes to about $1.00 per CD.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 09:36 AM

CAMSCO tries to sell everything in folk music. I'm always queasy about carrying material published by people whom, I'm told, screw their artists, but I'm really not privy to the contractual agreements that were made with Leader or Green Linnet. Just do what I can.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: red max
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 07:40 AM

I only meant in comparison to his other albums. Ballads & Songs was superb, and both Noah's Ark Trap and From the Devil a Stranger aren't far behind

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 07:27 AM

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 07:18 AM

Lord Bateman is one of my favourites from this album.

I remember seeing Nic (in late 1969 or early 1970, I think), at a club in Collier Row, Essex (Tony Maloney's club, before it moved to Hornchurch). Nic mentioned that he had speeded up The Lass of London City (aka White Copper Alley) from the usual 3/4 (as in The Royal Albion/Unfortunate Rake etc) to 6/8.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 07:06 AM

I assume, altough it is not clear from the thread, that this IS a Celtic Music release?

On the subject of CDR, (or ANY UK CD) you have to look for the small logo containing MCPS. This is supposed to verify that the Mechanical Copyright Protection Society, at least, has been paid their fees.
(only for the copyright on songs, not artists royalties)

The fee payable depends on the price of the CD and the quantity produced. This is done by declaration, i.e. self-certification. I think we paid about 30p each for a £4 CD.

When you get a glass master made, and commercial pressings made, it is difficult to hide the quantity, but when you make a CDR, you can tell them whatever you like, and no-one can check without going out and counting them!

However, assuming some declaration HAS been made, then the artist SHOULD be able to claim royalties on at least that many?

So do these CDs contain the MCPS logo?

PS. I too would like to own these CDs but not until Nic gets his royalties. (Although I have them on Vinyl, I don't currently have any way to play them.)
(And I thought Dance to Your Daddy was OK)

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Ralphie
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 05:33 AM

Nice one Countess...Well said
Nancy and James's version is very fine indeed.
Regards R

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 05:31 AM

Dance to your Daddy is a fine Northumbrian tune taken up in recent years by Nancy Kerr and James Fagan to stunning effect.

If you have an interest in hearing it I would suggest that in the meantime you try this until such time as you can get Nic's version in the certain knowledge that he's is being paid his due.

A small personal sacrifice in the interests of justice, I think.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Ralphie
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 05:20 AM

Hi Red.
Yes, you could be right re the 2nd album. Mind you, it was recorded over 30 years ago!!
Not bad for a young bloke methinks! We all started somewhere!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: red max
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 05:15 AM

For what's it's worth his 2nd self-titled album has to be the weakest one he ever released. Still strong by most people's standards, I hasten to add, but Dance to Your Daddy? Hmm...

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Ralphie
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 04:58 AM

Hi PE..(Sorry to shorten your name!)
There are hundreds of threads re CD-R's, but, basically, they are what you get when you burn a CD in your home computer. Not to be confused with a CD that you buy in a shop.
As to why Nic and Julia won't get royalty payments....Just search this Forum for information...I just hope you have several hours to spare to read it all...it does go on a bit!!

It's all been said a thousand times before....(Ralphie, walking away sighing sadly)

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 04:53 AM

GUEST-Penguin EGG- its a long story , Nic was ripped off by Dave Bulmer, see the numerous "bulmer" threads on here, note the ommision of the word allegidly.

Mr Bulmer-If your reading this and want to sue, go for it!
My real name is John Evans, I'm at 103 Chants Ave, Hull, England, HU5 3TG.

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 04:47 AM

What is CDR and why are Nic and Julia not getting royalty payments?

Subject: RE: Release of Nic Jones 2nd album
From: Ralphie
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 02:33 AM

Dick G. Have I read you correctly? Are CAMSCO really considering stocking Leader releases after all the discussions over the years, knowing full well that no royalties are paid to the artists?
Frankly I'm astonished.