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BS: Has the Internet changed kids?
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Subject: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Kim C Date: 24 Jan 04 - 05:22 PM I'm on several discussion boards (because I like to discuss), one of which is an extremely irreverent forum for Civil War reenactors. Since most boards make us stick to historical topics, some enterprising soul set up a group where we could go and pretty much say anything. (hey, not unlike Mudcat!) There are several teenagers on the board, one of whom is a girl named Victoria. She is a bright girl, but extremely full of herself, and rude to boot. Yesterday she told me to "get the fuck over it," after I told her she couldn't possibly advise me about anything she hadn't yet experienced. Now, I expect that from the adults. But when it comes from a kid.......... She's 15. I'm 36. I can't swear back at her. Heck, I probably wouldn't swear back at her even if she were an adult. It's not really my style. But I'm thinking that when I was her age, you didn't swear at an adult. It just wasn't done. So I'm wondering, where's her mother? Does she talk that way to her mother? Does her mother let her talk that way to just anybody? Dang, do I feel like an old bat. Is it just the times, or has the Net given people - especially kids - way too much leeway to run off their mouths? KFC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 24 Jan 04 - 05:26 PM I remember when there was no internet... People, kids or otherwise, were still 'foulmouthed' It didn't matter then and it doesn't matter now... Maybe you should take this kids advice... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Ebbie Date: 24 Jan 04 - 05:39 PM Oh dear. Clinton, I just got a flash as to what kind of kid you were. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Cluin Date: 24 Jan 04 - 05:43 PM Still is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Sorcha Date: 24 Jan 04 - 05:43 PM No, still is..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Cluin Date: 24 Jan 04 - 05:44 PM Ha! Got there first! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Jan 04 - 05:47 PM Kim, It seems to be a surly weekend out here in Mudcatland. I agree with you--this girl's parents should be reining in that kind of behavior. If they know about it. I have a 15-year-old, and at the risk of being slapped down by another GUEST who thinks we shouldn't discuss our children (or is it only MY children that guest has such difficulties with?) it is part of an ongoing dialog. My daughter is bright, she's caring and generous, but she IS 15 and she's in that peer-pressure-cooker called high school. Suggesting to the 15-year-old you tangled with that her mother wouldn't like such language will only bring on a further torrent. It's a tough call as to what will bring that girl into line--give her 20 years and she'll probably figure it out. :) Meanwhile, we try to keep a dialog going. It has its moments. I won't discuss particularities here because I encourage my daughter to participate at Mudcat. She can speak for herself these days, and does a very nice job of it. The only general advice I can give regarding the difficult individual on the other list is to engage her in substantive conversations, where the flippant or abusive stuff is inappropriate and if she wants to stay in the conversation she will have to behave herself. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Bill D Date: 24 Jan 04 - 05:53 PM lots of things have changed kids from what 'most' of them were 30-40 years ago...Television has probably done the most, but the internet will probably make the deepest and most lasting changes. Parents were 'generally' slower to learn about computers than their kids were, and started out at a disadvantage. There is simply no easy way to monitor kids and the internet after about age 12, when they can simply go somewhere else and connect. You can install those 'spy' programs that tell you everywhere they've been on YOUR computer, but that doesn't address why they want to go there. The only useful way to make sure YOUR kids have a chance of being the kind of kids you want is to have a good relationship with them and set a good example....with luck, they will then put 'internet' stuff in some perspective and not be like "Victoria". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST,JTT Date: 24 Jan 04 - 06:19 PM a) Sure the internet has changed kids - I was as skinny as a lath when i was a kid; now look at the little lardarses! b) Kids always behaved fairly raucously *among themselves*. Now the discourse is often between children and adults in mixed company, without the children being able to actually see that they're speaking to an adult. So they behave in the same way as they do with their mates - much like a bundle of puppies, rolling and nipping and squealing. If you want courtesy from them, behave a little formally; you could also bring a little realism to this by posting on the forum "I don't expect to be addressed like this; this time I won't inform the moderator..." (As an adult, you're allowed to be a telltale ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Jan 04 - 06:23 PM It's not the internet, Kim, it's changing attitudes. I am unhappy with foul language in inappropriate situations but it will, unfortunately, get to be the norm. We just have to live with it and let our kids know that there are other terms to use! Couple of things that put a smile on my lips, even if inappropriate. An old friend of mine, Johny Clifford, rest his soul, would put even the foulest mouth youngster to shame and get expletives in where you would think there was no possibility. His classic was "I'm not sur-fucking-prised." and close in it's heels was "The Fucking fuckers fucked!" He was 60 when he died 10 years ago, so it's nothing new. He only ever used the term in work oddly though. Outside, with his wife and family, he never uttered an expletive as far as as I know! Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Joe_F Date: 24 Jan 04 - 06:31 PM ObSongs: I can't control how you young people talk to one another, But I don't want to hear you use that F-word to your mother. -- Berryman & Berryman, "A Chat with Your Mother" The time he fucked the butler, 'twas such a fucking farce, For the heat of the fucking fucking fucking decomposed his arse. -- anon., "The Tinker" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST,c.sparra Date: 24 Jan 04 - 07:01 PM Kim C ... What was she trying to advise you on? Where is she from? Are you sure she has a responsible mother there? I am trying to build up a picture here. I know what you mean, younger people's language is alot more colourful than that which we maybe used, but they don't make the films or TV where it is so prevalent nowadays.I think they have been brought up on it in todays media, and it just isn't such a big deal to them.The clocks won't turn back. Also in some areas it wouldn't actually be considered too insulting.I am not defending it, just accepting of it I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Kim C Date: 25 Jan 04 - 03:10 AM She wasn't seriously trying to advise me of anything - she made a flippant comment that was intended to be funny, but failed miserably. I called her on it and she reacted like most 15-year-olds would, because Heaven knows, they know EVERYTHING, whether they've actually experienced it or not. Clinton, I am the fuck over it. But it got me to thinking about how things seem a lot different now than when I was 15. Sure, we cussed and swore and acted foolish - amongst ourselves. If I had EVER presumed to talk that way to an adult, it would have been grounds for an ass-whipping. JTT, I think that's part of it - the Internet has provided a forum where anyone can say anything. Now, I don't think that's a bad thing. But it does allow children to be in company with adults that they wouldn't normally be in company with. I do believe it's entirely possible for adults and young people to have decent, intelligent conversations. I also believe they can have lively discussions without the kid resorting to disrespectful behavior. I guess the Net gives them something to hide behind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 04 - 07:16 AM And not forgetting it gives the adults a chance to be in the company of kids. Which poses far greater dangers than the odd cuss. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: John MacKenzie Date: 25 Jan 04 - 07:25 AM The way that children speak to their parents, and other adults these days makes me long for either a big strap, or the end of the world. Whichever comes first. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST,martin gibson Date: 25 Jan 04 - 07:36 AM My young lad used to leave the odd Fuck go, but seldom in my company, picked it up from his mates, or possibly my mother in law! I noticed about a year ago it stopped so i quizzed him. He replied i stopped saying it because everyone says it now and it got boring!!! and then he capped it nicely by saying, of all the words we have to use, fuck is the one that has no actual meaning! think about it what does it mean in fuck off - i dont give a fuck - no i fucking wont - or most annoying when they drop it into the middle of another word. eg its a tele-fucking-vision. Thus he now uses normal words. Yes i was quite surprised, and needless to say a little pround of my young lad (14) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 04 - 09:03 AM From KimC: "She wasn't seriously trying to advise me of anything - she made a flippant comment that was intended to be funny, but failed miserably. I called her on it..." Ah, so KimC, you--a 36 year old--publicly chastised and humiliated a 15 year old girl who is trying to participate on an equal footing with the adults on your 'irreverent' Civil War enactor forum. You have described this girl as being very bright "but full of herself" which sounds very harsh and judgmental to me (I work with teenagers in an urban high school). Perhaps you would prefer it if teenagers weren't allowed to contribute to the forum at all? At any rate, you attempted to 'put her in her place' and then are surprised she responded the way she did? It sounds to me as if you are the one who should be ashamed of the way you behaved so badly towards a 15 year old who is obviously making an effort to engage the adults on an equal footing. What on earth is the matter with that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST,Crystal Date: 25 Jan 04 - 10:20 AM I've been an active participant on many forums since I was 16. I've found that some of the worst people for rudeness, bickering and all round stupidity tend to be adults, especially over 40's. A forum of which I am a member has been attacked reciently by a few members of another forum who think it is correct to use bad language and threatening behavior. The problem is that this is a Thunderbirds forum! Yes Thunderbirds as in the kids show. I've been a member of the forum for about 4 years now and I am aware that some of our members are quite young, so I am careful with my language. Our detractors, two 40 year old women were upset by our webmaster pointing out that a piece of imformation one of them gave out was incorrect. He was very polite about it but this woman HATES being corrected about anything. She and her friend have been harassing us for months, trying to start a flame war but to no avail. What makes it sillier is that They are 40, he is 19 and HE is the mature one. I've never experienced hassle from teenagers really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Amos Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:04 AM Children all try it on; most of them outgrow the obsession with foul language as a first resort under stress. Adults, however, believe they have stopped growing... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:17 AM Guest, Crystal, as you get older you'll notice that maturity and age are not mutually inclusive. Old fools can be a lot more obnoxious than young fools, because there is less hope for reformation. Those women you described were just as immature at 19 as they are at 40. The mature 19-year-old will remain so. Lucky him! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Kim C Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:38 AM No, GUEST, I didn't try to "put her in her place." I treated her like I would have treated any grown-up who said the same thing. Equal footing, you know. I don't think it's rude to ask someone, "hey... why'd you say that?" Because half the time, they don't know themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:47 AM No KimC, the better question is why you felt the need, as a 36 year old, to beat up on a 15 year old who obviously was trying too hard, to begin with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST,c.sparra Date: 25 Jan 04 - 11:50 AM Kim You said you told her not to try and advise you on something that she hasn't experienced, what was she trying to advise you on? Personally I think a "good ass-whipping" is really abusive. Thank God we have moved on from the times when that was deemed acceptable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Amos Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:11 PM C.Sparra: I agree that ass-whipping is an abusive recourse, but let me underscore that Kim was referring to the possibility in her own past, not offering it as a present remedy. Fifteen or thirty-six, on the Internet no-one knows you're not an adult and it seems to me that calling someone on verbal abuse is perfectly acceptable. If the fifteen year old is smart she will come back next time and try some other way to get acknowledged. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:14 PM Or maybe Kim's attempt to shame and humiliate her publicly for being who she is, will crush her spirit, and make her yet another disillusioned, bitter, and cynical 16 year old. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Amos Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:18 PM I don't recall seeing or reading about such an attempt. Did you see the original dialogue? If not, you're adding a lot of color to this one! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:18 PM Good on ya KimC...! I'd say that the internet has changed everything. Verbal hit and run put downs, and with annonymous or adopted identities are a big problem... It kinda makes it OK (because of a lack 'being taken to task'?) to be mentally unstable, detatched and abusive... gives it a forum. But it's not 'just the internet'... ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:34 PM Amos, I am responding to Kim's own words and description of the interaction, from this in the original post from KimC: "There are several teenagers on the board, one of whom is a girl named Victoria. She is a bright girl, but extremely full of herself, and rude to boot. Yesterday she told me to "get the fuck over it," after I told her she couldn't possibly advise me about anything she hadn't yet experienced. Now, I expect that from the adults. But when it comes from a kid.......... She's 15. I'm 36." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:42 PM And this: "From: Kim C Date: 25 Jan 04 - 03:10 AM She wasn't seriously trying to advise me of anything - she made a flippant comment that was intended to be funny, but failed miserably. I called her on it..." That says to me that Kim felt a need to put down a 15 year old. Apparently, she enjoys being able to put teenagers in their place, for attempting to act older than they are. Note that Kim said she expects that an adult would have responded to her in just the way 15 year old Victoria did. That says to me that Kim recognizes that another adult wouldn't let Kim get away with what was obviously meant to be a personal put down from Kim. So, if Kim would expect that sort of response from an adult, why the double standard for the 15 year old, whom Kim obviously felt justified in publicly humiliating? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST,c.sparra Date: 25 Jan 04 - 12:54 PM Amos I think when we are being presented with the result of an altercation, it is helpful if we know what led to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST,Van Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:28 PM Is it not the case that we have, when we were young, when we grew older, when we got jobs have always varied our vocabularies. You had playground language which the teacher couldn't hear (nor your parents). You may have had a language at home which you couldn't use at school. You probably have terms of endearment for your employer which he might prefer not to hear. On the net, if children talk to each other in the terms they use in the playground etc what's the harm. Or am I talking f*****g b******s. Asterisks to protect those of a sensitive nature. Let the children play. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: John MacKenzie Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:29 PM I think it is nobody elses business how we bring up our children, providing we don't do anything illegal. I'm fed up with do gooders who interfere in other peoples private life, many of them just out of college with a degree in sociology, and no life experience. Our anonymous Guest is either one of these or a flamer, so should be ignored. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST,c.sparra Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:41 PM The anon guest didn't question how the child was/is being brought up. The originator of this thread did that? If Child A came running in, screaming that Child B had called him XYZ, the first question we would ask is, "What happened?". It isn't admonishing anyones behaviour, it is simply asking for the whole picture. And in this instance we do not have that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:54 PM Excuse me folks, while I take grab GUEST by the shirtfront and take him aside for a quick shake and a dope slap.
I'm sure you'll have a lot to say about this, offering nasty rebuttals, name calling, innuendo. Perhaps you'll be stalking more threads where there are posts by myself and others who find you to be a selfish little putz. It's a mess with you around already. Letting go of the creep. Well, I feel better. Thanks, folks, for offering PM support this weekend. While this guy is an annoyance and his remarks aren't being taken personally, it's always good to hear nice words from old friends. As Shakespeare said Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried, Grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel; But do not dull thy palm with entertainment Of each new-hatch'd, unfledg'd comrade. Beware Of entrance to a quarrel but, being in, Bear't that th' opposed may beware of thee. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST,c.sparra Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:06 PM Never slap your dope, it will fly right across the room and you will never find it again! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:07 PM I wish! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:24 PM More power to you SRS! Well said! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Cluin Date: 25 Jan 04 - 03:38 PM Fuck is a good word, when used wisely. Unfortunately there are always people who feel nothing succeeds like excess. And SRS, ignore the troll. It is not worth your time or attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Kim C Date: 25 Jan 04 - 03:52 PM Victoria made what she thought was a joke. It wasn't particularly funny and I said so. Politely. She was the one who swore at me, told me to get the fuck over it, and if I didn't like it, too bad. Now you tell me who was getting the humiliation treatment. I am not now, nor have I ever been, in the business of humiliating people. But that's not what I was asking. What I want to know is, why do some of the kids today think it's all right to just say whatever the hell they want, to whomever the hell they want, end expect it to be perfectly acceptable? I don't even talk that way to adults I know. If you must know, I have several teenagers in my life who I admire very much, and we have great conversations together. And I told Victoria today that I admired her spirit, and could we please shake hands now. So there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 04 - 06:10 PM Hate to disappoint you after your way cool guest bitch slap there, SRS, but I'm not yer man. To quote the wise and mature KimC "So there." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Jan 04 - 06:35 PM You're right, Thomas, but I always enjoy an opportunity to trot out some Shakespeare! SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Johnny in OKC Date: 25 Jan 04 - 08:27 PM Tell Victoria, if she want to talk that way, you'll put her in the Navy. I think internet has given children something to shoot for. In the first place, you have to be able to read ... a lot. And it helps being able to type. And think. With TV, all you have to do is sit there. I think internet is generally good for children. It opens up the whole world, the good and the bad, which is what they will have to deal with later on. Love, Johnny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Cluin Date: 25 Jan 04 - 08:41 PM At 15, they're not kids anymore. They're moody teenagers, with all the good old wholesome fun & games that entails. Get enough of that in real life. If you don't want to deal with it online too, just turn off the screen, get up and go do a crossword puzzle or something. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Johnny in OKC Date: 25 Jan 04 - 08:46 PM Is that when they get cross with their mom, so they use bad words? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Jan 04 - 08:47 PM As far as my researches show, the Internet has never changed a single nappy (daiper)! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Kim C Date: 25 Jan 04 - 10:53 PM Well, Cluin, I don't have much interaction with teenagers in real life, which is probably why I was shocked. I have a nephew who's 16, polite, and very, very smart. Good kid. We have great talks about books and movies. And my friend Jane's daughter Melanie, who is a real hoot. Guess I'm just getting old. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 26 Jan 04 - 01:32 AM When I was in high school I took typing, and it was easy because I'd been playing the piano for years. I had the kids start taking "keyboarding" as grade- and-middle-schoolers when they had summer school (a local community college's "College for Kids" program has a nice mix of academics and fun in a summer school setting). Between that and what they're getting at school, my 15-year old can type at least as fast as I can, if not faster. I hear the keyboard chattering away as she is online chatting with her friends--the keyboard has replaced the telephone, because they can do their conferencing in chat rooms at AIM. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: NicoleC Date: 26 Jan 04 - 12:52 PM Hasn't every generation of adults complained and railed about how the kids of the next generation were awful and so much different than themselves at that age? And their parents did the same? And their parents before them? I find it quite impossible that every generation has gotten staggeringly worse, else we'd all be back naked in the trees flinging dung at each other. I think most teenagers I meet are stupid snots. I daresay the adults that were around in my teen years said the same despite the fact I was pretty tame and spineless back then. I do, however, remember the smoking, drinking, drugs, swearing, inappropriate sexual activity and other teen activities going on that are now cited as the reasons why the next generation is terrible. Has the internet changes kids? Sure -- it's changed people of all ages. So did TV, the personal automobile, not wearing corsets, the railroad, several generations worth of wars, etc., etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Grab Date: 26 Jan 04 - 01:32 PM I can't remember whose comment it was I read recently. Probably Bill Bryson, I think. Anyway, the point was that grown-ups know all these swear-words, and use them on occasion. Then kids grow up, and suddenly the grown-ups get all careful about not using these words. Then the kids go to school and learn the words. The kids swear a few times and get told off, so they don't use the words in front of their parents any more. So for about 10-15 years, there's a period where both sides are using these words freely amongst their own peer group, but the two sides are both pretending to each other that they don't really exist. When you think about it like that, it's a pretty bizarre situation. Re the specific incident with the specific kid, I guess we don't know how it went. Remember that it's perfectly possible to be offensive, cutting and hurtful without swearing. Even if you weren't, there's still a chance she could have interpreted it that way. There's a reason why smileys were invented, which is that when you're reading plain-text, it's awfully easy to misinterpret it and take comments personally which were meant more light-heartedly. In fact it seems that the reason you've got involved in the first place was a light-hearted comment from her which got taken the wrong way. As far as bright kids go, plenty of them have encountered dumb adults. Life experience and intelligence don't necessarily go hand in hand. And kids are plenty full of idealism, bcos they know the theoretically-right answer and haven't had to beat that against the real world yet. If that's a bad thing, shoot all idealists... ;-) Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Has the Internet changed kids? From: Kim C Date: 26 Jan 04 - 05:57 PM Just so you will all know, here's one of Victoria's other posts from the discussion board, bashing someone else's post on another board... The question was basicly what sort of things people were into. My input in bold... MizScarlett Newbie Posts: 10 (11/27/03 4:56 pm) Reply Re: ANOTHER general question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Obessions sorta, Lord of the Rings I'll never understand obsessions with movies. Pirates of the Carribean It's a movie with two hot guys, get off of it. Writing Poems I bet they suck Writing Short Storys I bet those suck too. I would like to continue to learn to play my guitar, but its too big for my small hands Oh no! you poor fragel little thing! Your only twice my size and I can play the guitar just fine. Taking pictures Of your self in your farb sneakers? Video Games Thumb movement does not count as exercise. Driving Wow your cool now! I think you drove to McDonalds to often. Hanging with friends Imaginary ones and your captian don't count. Cooking, believe it or not I'm a great cook Yea your captian just LOVES it right? Farb cook. My website which needs to be updated Updated- right, burned is the appropriate term. swimming you don't sink? Guys, that look like girls guys that look like girls , guys that look like girls , guys that look like girls , guys that look like girls , guys that look like girls, guys that look like girls , guys that look like girls , guys that look like girls , guys that look like girlsLOL and I guess thats about it --------- I despise this girl witha passion. Victoria ------------------------------------------------------------- Sweet kid, huh? Fifteen. We were talking about school. Since she was talking about drinking coffee at school, and had talked in another post about raiding beer from someone's fridge... well, gosh, I thought she was in college. I said I was thinking about going to grad school. She said, bad idea. I said, have you ever been to grad school? And she went off on this "well since we're talking about high school I think you can figure out I haven't been to grad school." I said, how do you know it's a bad idea then? I used to think so too but I changed my mind. That's when she told me to get the fuck over it. Did I say something wrong? I mean, really. What'd I do? |
