BS: Chicken Flu

Subject: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Raptor
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:21 PM

Did anyone else see how they dispose of the LIVE chickens suspected of Avian Flu on the news reciently?

They stuffed them live into bags and chucked the bags onto trucks to be buried while the chickens were still alive!

Comments?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:31 PM

Suggest a better method of (the entirely necessary decision of) killing thousands of chickens in a very poor country then?

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:33 PM

Nope, but then I'm at work. Did they show the burying alive? I'd think that they'd wring their necks or something first.

Then again, how would you kill several thousand chickens?

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Raptor
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:35 PM

At least cut thier heads off. Its quick and painless!

Is poverty an excuse for thoughtless cruelty?

Sorry Ed!

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Raptor
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:36 PM

They showed the bags still squirming while being burried!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:39 PM

Is poverty an excuse for thoughtless cruelty?

Depends on how poor you are, I'd have thought. (At least in the terms that you frame it).

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:52 PM

they might also be concerned with contamination - as even if the necks were wring rather then cut off - other bodily "fluids" then blood would still be present in copious quantities given the number of birds to dispose of.

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 04:33 PM

They could gas them with exhaust pipes routed into a sealed coops, but I don't know if it would be any better than live burial from a chicken's point of view. If I were a chicken and knew I had to die, about the only method I'd want is a drug overdose, with something that made me unconscious first. But they'd have to buy all of them sleeping pills or something, and perhaps provide a bottle of decent scotch.

When they're bagged up, it's not a whole lot different than turning the ventilator off on a patient unable to breath on his own. It's just that we have all these horror stories about premature burial. And we're squeamish because we can afford to be squeamish. Cutting their heads off may make US feel better, but to a chicken, it may be worse than suffocation. They don't die right away. In one story I remember, one lived for a few months with no head. Now, that has GOTTA hurt! And if you think it doesn't hurt because their brains are gone...it's not possible to walk or breathe without a brain either. Chickens, apparently, don't always need brains.

Your job is to kill a truck full of infectious chickens, then go back for another truckload. They're expecting you back in a couple of hours and if you want to be paid, you have to be there. How would you do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:07 PM

They might have in fact already killed the birds. It is not a myth that a chicken can be decapitated and still run around or otherwise move. How is this any different than raising a net full of fish from the sea? Do you think they anesthetize the fish or something. Is cutting their heads off with an axe somehow more humane? By the way I am a member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals).

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: The Stage Manager
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:09 PM

Presumably if they are buried alive the chickens die of suffocation? How long does that take? If only three or four minutes it may be the most efficient and humane way of disposal.

Should we even be projecting our own, perhaps rather distorted views, of death onto animals. After all death is a certainty for all of us.
and chickens have a number of natural predators besides man.

Given that death is a certainty for all of us, how is it we seem to have so lttle choice about how we each bow out? Consumer choice seems to me to be somewhat limited in this area.

Buried alive, or neck wrung?   Be interested to know what Catters personal preferences are. Think mine might involve a particular single malt and some very loud jigs and reels.

SM

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:11 PM

The conditions those chickens are kept in - the disgusting battery cages with the birds close confined - are such that it's no wonder disease spreads like wildfire. Poor little chooks. Animals are not machines to produce human food.

Major bad karma in keeping an animal in such a way.

Going in to tuck in my happy chickens, who live a life of treats, pecking around the garden and the run, and a nice place to roost at night.

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:20 PM

I hear ya, JTT! But given the machinery is there, I thik I'd rather have my head cut off. 'Course I don't really know what that feels like to a chicken. Nor do I know what "decent scotch" means to a chicken, either!! :>) But I would hate to be sitting in a past-life-regression session and have to be figuring out what I am seeing when looking at a mental impression of being stuck in a black plastic bag, thrown in a hole and buried. Would take forever to figger it out, I reckon! :>))

"Oh...my....God!!! I was a CHICKEN...No WONDER!!!!!!!!"

A

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 11:04 PM

Raptor says ="cut their heads off, it's quick and painless"

you ever had your head cut off Raptor?

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 11:25 PM

I didn't see how the chickens were dispatched, but I can bet that the people doing the dispatching weren't supplied with HazMat suits or whatever they're called. Given what I have heard, chicken flu, so far, is only passed from chicken to human and then only by close contact with the birds. I certainly wouldn't want to be wielding an axe in the midst of a bunch of possibly contaminated birds. Sometimes as cruel as it seems, under those circumstances, you've got to have a bit of self preservation. If you can't be safely bagged youself, bag the bird.

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 06:40 AM

Watching some footage of someone "disinfecting" the chicken cages - backpack spray gun - bare feet, shorts t-shirt, no safety gear whatsoever....

and you worry about the dann _chickens_ being buried alive? :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: GUEST,ozzy
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 07:45 AM

Chickens can't fly,what you lot on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Raptor
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 09:47 AM

Johnfromhell What?????

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 09:51 AM

Chickens CAN fly - not well - and not for long - but they CAN fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Raptor
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:02 AM

I have no sympathy for the bastards that keep those chickens in shoeboxes. If there are so poor like our friend Mr.Ed contends how do you spose they ended up with thousands of chickens?

Are you really sugesting that because these people might get sick they are excused from doing the right thing killing the chickens as quickly as possible?

I didn't see a gun to the head of the guy putting the live chickens in the bags (I'd like to) If they were worried about getting sick they can walk away!

There is always a choice when it comes to doing the right thing!

If your dog was suspected of being sick and someone sufficated it by buring it alive you'd be the first ones to call for his arrest.

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:17 PM

Raptor, I understand and can sympathize with your distress. We'd probably do it differntly here, we're geared for large scale, speedy, expediant slaughtering. We'd probably provide protective clothing to workers and hang the birds by their feet from a conveyor belt, then zap them when we lowered their beaks into a tray of electrically charged water. Even our own "humane" mechanized practices move many to become vegitarians.

However, reality is that this is an impoverished area of the world, where small children work long hours in sweat shops making shoes and little girls, as young as 5 years old are sold into sexual slavery, virgins commanding a premium, some bound for "markets" in Europe and North America, like the shoes.

One can't help, at times, sit in judgement in the comparative protected luxury of our own "world", with our own legislated rules and laws (some very recent in the grand scheme of things) regarding appropriate behavior and respect towards sentient beings, animal or human.

I know I do quite regularly, especially regarding children, but sometimes I try to envison walking a mile in their reality with bare feet and remember the words of David Lindley's song, "Do You Want My Job?"

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 04:43 PM

Robin, the fact that I'm infuriated by cruelty to animals doesn't mean I condone poverty and ill-treatment of humans.

You're absolutely right that people shouldn't have to live and work like that. How are we going to stop it?

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Ed.
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 04:51 PM

If there are so poor like our friend Mr.Ed contends how do you spose they ended up with thousands of chickens?

I am neither your friend or called 'Mr Ed' Please don't presume.

How did they end up with 'thousands of chickens?' They put a boy chicken with lots of girl chickens...

That doesn't make them very rich.

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 05:07 PM

Raptor,
I appreciate your viewpoint - but Metchosin is closer to the "reality" there.

The worker I saw there, would not have owned anything much more than the clothes on his back - working in virtual slavery - "The Company Store" concept from an now allegedly "more enlightened" USA.

Choice - the greedy profiteers who DO own the facilities - and in Indonesia are refusing to kill the birds have a choice - they choose to make their "slaves" - in all but name only - do what I saw without the expense of providing any safety training or gear (God! now I'm sounding so Left Wing...).

There is some Tradition preserved in Folk Song (this IS a music site!) about such things happening in our enlightened Western Countries not all that long ago - for example - how long ago were children being sent to work in mines in England/Wales/USA? They still do in parts of South America.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Raptor
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 07:53 PM

Ed Freind or Foe You need to relax.

I'm sorry I didn't realise that you in fact know everything about the finantial state of some guy that I saw on TV 2 days ago!

I must have presumed that you weren't phsyic

My bad!

I also presumed that if you had a Giant barn, Full of chickens, That you could at least afford an axe!How utterly stupid of me! Its a good thing that we are graced by your presence to inform us what we can or cannot be upset by!

I'm not disputing that some people are forced to do jobs that they don't have much say in if any at all. I'm not disputing that the country in which these people live in is poor.

But annimal cruelty is bad and we as humans have a voice and if we see somthing that is wrong we can do something about it. Its the responsability of the government of that country to implament laws preventing such abuse! This will effect the company that IS making money from the chickens not the poor slob that works for him!


Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:45 PM

Nice to Animals Good!
Cruel to Animals Ba-a-a-ad!
Nice to Animals Good!
Cruel to Animals Ba-a-a-ad!
Nice to Animals Good!
Cruel to Animals Ba-a-a-ad!
Nice to Animals Good!
Cruel to Animals Ba-a-a-ad!
Nice to Animals Good!
Cruel to Animals Ba-a-a-ad!
Nice to Animals Good!
Cruel to Animals Ba-a-a-ad!
Nice to Animals Good!
Cruel to Animals Ba-a-a-ad!
Nice to Animals Good!
Cruel to Animals Ba-a-a-ad!
Nice to Animals Good!
Cruel to Animals Ba-a-a-ad!

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:44 AM

MMario is probably right that the plastic bags are a low tech way of keeping the chicken virus "contained". Wonder how long the plastic bag would retain it's ability to isolate the virus?

The whole thing is getting scary. Dangerous beef, dangerous chickens.

What does this mean for all of us who rely on chicken soup to help us overcome the flu?

I guess I'll just become a vegetarian.

Akkk, pesticides!!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: GUEST,Tang the Orangutan
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 01:08 AM

I have been telling all of my dear chicken friends to stay away, until this epidemic is under control. I don't want to get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Raptor
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 06:53 AM

Foolestroupe Well said!

I guess I need to relax!

I just get my fur up when people suggest that whats right takes a back seat to the almighty dollar

Things don't change till people speak up

BTW they were not plastic bags they were burlap(the chickens could still breathe up untill the dirt came much later)

Raptor

Can't wait for Mrs Ed's wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 08:04 AM

OK I'm going to play the devil's advocate here, and suggest that it's the values which place human lives over animal lives that need to be examined. After all, if Nature had been left to take it's course, China would no doubt get a badly-needed break from it's overpopulation problems.

Has anyone considered that the never-ending outbreaks of "new" diseases in recent years, like SARS, "chicken flu" ... even AIDS, cancer etc ... are really Nature's "blessings in disguise"? So, why not just let Nature do Her job? The Earth and everything on it would be much better off!

Pardon me for being in such a rotten mood .... I'm snowed in again today after shovelling out from under 4ft drifts 3X in the last 2 days. My water pump froze solid a couple days ago, and I'm nervously awaiting a hefty plumber's bill from the 4 nice men who crawled in under the house (through the snowdrifts in the 40 below wind chill) to thaw it out with a blow-torch. "Noble Trade" indeed!

But now every bone in my body is aching, I can't even SEE my laneway.
My whole yard is now level with my front porch.   So no work today AGAIN, even after all that effort. And I don't get paid for "snow days" either.

At this point, I'd rather be a Chinese chicken I think. I'm buried alive anyway!! Oh well, at least I have heat and water. ANd I'm able to help out a few neighbours who aren't so fortunate. Had a couple here yesterday, doing laundry, filling water jugs and taking their first showers in 4 days. *Whew*

Are we having fun yet?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:14 PM

Daylia, been there done that, so I can sympathize with your mood, I'll keep my fingers crossed that you don't loose your power too, I can assure you that hauling and melting buckets of snow on a wood stove for 5 days for man and beast, is a right pain in the ass as well. It takes a hell of a lot of snow to make a few inches of water in a bucket.

Although the majority do, viruses that can mutate into pandemics that the WHO and others are concerned about, are not exclusive to Eurasia and Africa, nor even with the most rigorous of controls, as we have seen, do they stay there. Hanta virus, for example, is ubiquitous in the North and South American rodent population, other, more dangerous ones, could very well arise here.

What should be particularly troubling to those that might cynically place other species in Nature over our own (as if we can ever be separate) and consider this a convenient method of control of excess human population may not realize, is that Chicken flu is actully Avian flu which can be passed to all species of birds. A lot of birds like humans, don't stay put in this world. If allowed to just take its course, worse case scenario "And No Birds Sang" world wide, could be a likely result, before there was any significant reduction in the human population. We're all Bozos on this bus, humans and other beasties alike.

Raptor, feel free to get as tense as you wish, envisioning what can be perceived as the needless suffering and death of any animal is not an easy thing. I imagine the Jaines of India would feel equal horror when viewing "oblivious" fisherman standing by, while fish flop and gasp on the decks and in the holds of North American fishing vessels.

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 05:13 PM

Raptor,

I was hoping a little humour would defuse the situtation: did you get the subtle George Orwell (Animal Farm) reference? :-)

And as the almighty dollar has a tendency to make everything else take a back seat, you are talking to the converted anyway...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: GUEST,Corridus
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 05:24 PM

The trouble with the world is mainly that it has been overrun by Monsters. I don't see any simple solution for this, but there is always the hope that the Monsters will kill each other off with their crazy machines and strange devices. In the meantime one must cope as best one can. Raptor appears to have a sense of conscience, which I appreciate, and I can only share in his horror at the burying alive of those poor birds. I don't think the birds would ever have gotten sick in the first place if the Monsters didn't keep them cooped up in unnatural conditions all the time.

Corridus

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Raptor
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 05:30 PM

My apologies to all!

My late wife was an animal lover (see her website in the Obit my wife thread) I didn't mean to be such an asshole!

Getting mad at the chicken cruelty seemed to be a good place for my agression

Ed I'm sorry!

My disrespect was inexcusealbe, and i'm ashamed!

David

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 07:08 PM

Raptor, IMO you have absolutely no reason to judge yourself as behaving like an asshole. I certainly didn't feel you were being an asshole. You had your opinion based on your strong feelings and gut reaction at the time, your feelings are your own and you are fully entitled to them. Some others had differing opinions. I assume everyone is an adult here and can take their knocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Raptor
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 07:17 PM

I was being a prick to Ed!

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 07:39 PM

So.....I have witnessed very few who haven't been prickly here once in awhile with seemingly less reason, IMO. *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 08:42 PM

Raptor, I don't think you're being a prick or that there's anything to apologize for. You're absolutely right about the cruelty to animals. It's very frustrating because, as Corridus puts it, you're up against the Monsters. And it seems the Monsters are, unfortunately, the only ones with any real power (ie $ and political influence) to do anything about it.

Metchosin, thank you for your understanding, and for explaining the possible consequences for all species, not just humans, of letting Nature just take it's course via the Avian flu. That certainly sheds a new light on the issue.

I knew I was in a real *mood* this morning, and read that post over a few times before I decided to go ahead and submit it. I still think I have a point though, even if it did come out overly cynical.

Truth is, I don't want to see epidemics of any kind -- in China or anywhere else. And I'm sure that reading about thousands of humans being buried alive would have upset me a LOT more than what's happening to those poor birds. I'm just looking forward to the day when human beings finally remember what they knew without being taught a long long time ago ... that they are just a relatively recent and unimportant "link in the chain" on this planet, not the entire "chain" itself!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 10:46 PM

It's not just the cruel killing of the chickens (though that is hideous beyond belief - the facilities look expensive enough; they could have just turned off the lights (chickens go almost into a coma in the dark) and gassed the poor little chooks in their sleep, to be merciful, if they had to kill them en masse).

No, it's the horrible way they're stacked in tiny cages, too, illegal in Europe and the US for animal welfare reasons.

A chicken is a bird, not a machine. It needs to be able to flap its wings, peck around and root for worms, have a bit of a social life.

This business of concentrating one type of crop or animal en masse in one place must also concentrate animal and plant diseases, to the detriment of human health, as well as animal and plant health. If the same number of chickens were spread out over hundreds of small farms, they'd have better lives, and if they were going to be killed and eaten it could be done mercifully, and they'd even taste better.

But then I can see little chance of any future but a barren earth riven of animals and populated only by starving cannibals, the way we're going.

Subject: RE: BS: Chicken Flu
From: Raptor
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 06:35 AM

This I why Heide made me buy Free Run Eggs all the time! ,br>
Raptor