Mandolin: trials and Tribulations

Subject: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: Alex.S
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 04:20 PM

Well, I finally did it: I, a fiddler, have gotten hold of a mandolin. Fingerings? No problem, it's all the same. But, for the life of me, I can't use a pick!

I try and try and try, but to no avail. I just can't control the tiny little thing at an speed whatsoever: I can't hit single the double-strings, I can't do tremolo, nothing.

What should I do? I was thinking of buying a fingerpick, but I don't know if one can/should use a fingerpick with a mandolin. Am I just going to have to bite the bullet and keep practicing until I can successfully pick out "yankee doodle" with a normal pick?

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: Sleepless Dad
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 04:29 PM

Now you know how I feel when I pick up a bow. Totally lost.

Just try to think back on how strange it felt when you first started on the violin. You got over that - you'll get over this feeling too. Stick with the flatpick and good luck.

PS - Have you checked out www.mandolincafe.com yet ?

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: GUEST,DrWord sans cookie
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 04:30 PM

Excellent, Alex! My late brother, who took up bluegrass mandolin after leaving two guitarist fingers behind in a table saw--and became quite the "django of the mando" swore by a severely thick pick, even for tremolo work. I picked up the mandolin [a sweet century-old bowlback ten-string with triple trebles] after age forty, and also had the rudiments of fingering from helping my son with Suzuki-style violin lessons. Ennywey, I moved to heavier and heavier picks, and now use an oversize 1.2mm thumbpick almost exclusively. Keep on pickin!!!
Dennis

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: Banjo,London
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 06:48 PM

Try a big thick (1.2mm or more) pick you "can get hold of". It 's important you file the tip to a sharp, thinner point though!
Thin picks give a sweeter sound, and might be easier for you to get a tremolo working, to start with.
Controling a good tremelo sound takes a lot of practice, it don't come easy.
Thumb picks and finger picks: don't go there. Do you want to play the mandolin or not?
I find Mandolin picks useless too.

PS I love mandolins so much I build them.

Banjo,London

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 06:56 PM

In my limited experience, most mando players do use what guitarists would consider heavy or very heavy picks. If the pick bends at all, it wants to get squangled up in the strings. There's the additional factor that the mando isn't as loud as the guitars (and nothing - in most groups - is as loud as a fiddle) so mando players tend to "beat it to death" to try to be heard. (Playing loud should come later in your lesson plan.)

You may find you get a little more "feel" for the pick with a medium guitar pick at first, but too flimsy a pick is not helpful. Until you are more familiar with the instrument, a heavy one may feel a little like you're "clubbing it," so find one that's comfortable for you to practice with.

The pick may seem strange for a while, but you can be reasonably assured that with a little practice you'll pick it up one day and it will "know where to go."

John

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: Sam L
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:18 PM

When I started taking lessons, a classical guy taught me there was one true way to hold and use a pick, and for whatever reasons, (he was pretty good, for one) I believed him for a long time, and struggled with it.

I eventually made and patented my own picks, and based on the way I use them, re-approached flatpicks. Different things work for different people. But I have to point a pick a little parallel with my thumb, forward, instead of lateral, to use my wrist for crosspicking. I do tremelo more with my arm, and it matters less how I hold the pick. But for firm loud crosspicking up and down across strings I use my wrist, and have to recommend it from my own experience and observations of great players.

The problem some of us have seems to be when we hold a pick firmly enough, other muscles tense when they need to stay relaxed. That was my issue, and I could play pretty well until the tension made me clutzy. The learned memory doesn't work very well with too much muscle tension, I think. It was frustrating. Maybe something about this helps, I hope.

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: Banjo,London
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 08:51 PM

Fred Millers brought up a good point about muscle tension here.
I used to get awful pains across my shoulders, until it was pointed out that I had a really terrible posture.
Because the mandolin is such a small instrument it's easy to get into a bad habit of "crouching" over it. If you make a conscious effort to keep your back straight, and relax when you play, you avoid a lot of grief.
Banjo,London

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: Songster Bob
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 01:31 AM

I don't see any reference to using your other fingers as a "feeler gauge," almost like finger-pickers use 'em as an anchor, except they move. The pickguard is a good place to put your other fingers (the ones not holding the pick), and, by sliding back and forth as you pick, help establish the "depth" of your picking stroke. If your hand is totally free, it will be hard to hit one string or course regularly -- sometimes you'll dig in to much, the next note will be almost missed because your pick is too high, etc.

When you try to tremelo, your anchoring fingers will be especially useful. So put that pinky out a bit, find the top or the pickguard, and let it (the finger) guide you.


Good luck!

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 05:34 AM

Quite a few "beginner" level instruction books I've seen stress that if you drop your pick you need to hold it a little tighter, but if you don't drop your pick, you're holding it too tight. I think this instruction is a little overblown, but relaxing everything you don't need is definitely a help.

Observation of a few good players gives me the impression that mando players tend to use the "edge" of the pick much more than guitarists. You "hang up" on the strings less if the pick is at a little angle to the strings, as opposed to just laying it flat on the string when you pull it across. I've collected a small sampling of discarded picks from a few respectable players, and the "faces" on most are almost virgin, but the edges are generally pretty heavily worn.

Experimentation, to find what suits you, is the key.

John

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 05:41 AM

Jeez, I've played mandolin for thirty years and never new it was so complex holding a plectrum [ pick. ]
Star off with one you use OK and as you progress you will find you need to use a heavier pick.
eric

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: Willie-O
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 06:19 AM

Hold pick between thumb and side of forefinger, about 1/4" of pick protruding, the rest of your fingers sticking out straight. Get used to holding it like this, it is much more comfortable and efficient than squeezing it between thumb and a fingertip.

I absolutely swear by Jim Dunlop "Tortex" .73 mm picks. They have a slightly grainy feel so they don't slip. I used to use thicker ones, but eventually found their lack of flex to be a disadvantage--they dig in between the strings instead of going to the next note. When they dig in, that's when you lose the pick.

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: GUEST,Mary V.
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:29 PM

I am very new to the mandolin , I've owned it , one week. I've found tremoling unbelievably easy. I am so excited about it.
The sound is so beautiful .
I bought a video and that has helped me tremendously on learning some beginning techniques.

Mary

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: mooman
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:48 PM

I've been playing mandolin for 40 years and fully agree with Willie-O's advice. I also use Dunlop Tortex picks (either .60. or .73 depending on what I'm playing) having found them the most satisfactory after trying practically all types including natural tortoiseshell ( virtually impossible to gey these days). The textured surface helps prevent slipping and I hold the pick similarly except I don't stick my fingers out.

The angle of your wrist and hand in relation to the strings is important in relation to control and also preventing strain and tension and possible RPI or carpal tunnel problems. I tend to rest the heel of my hand just behind the bridge and sometimes steady the hand with my little finger against the top. Ideally, the pick should be parallel to the strings for best control. Controlling tremelo takes a bit of practice but will come if you persevere. Best to start slowly and steadily before moving on to harder procedures like crosspicking or "cranning".

The mandolin is a fine instrument....welcome to the club! I also endorse the very excellent Mandolin Cafe site. This is a link to their lessons pages.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: GUEST,Mary V
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 09:12 PM

After hearing mooman has played 40 years I am very interested in what make of mandolin you play ?
I like what I have for now , which is a crafter inexpensive mandolin.
The way that I am really taking to the mandolin I know at a later date I would buy myself a really nice one.

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: mooman
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 04:02 AM

Dear Mary,

I play a Chris Eccleshall A.5 mandolin that I've had for about 23 years and bought directly from Chris. I also play a Terry Docherty octave mandola that I bought through Mudcat contacts a year or two ago. Both are superb, great-sounding instruments handmade made by very talented luthiers.

I know others here have excellent instruments which they will happily describe, so don't hesitate to drop by for advice if you want to move up!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: GUEST,Mary V.
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 06:13 AM

Thanks Moo ! I will check out these makes . I normally haven't bought inexpensive makes but found one on ebay I could refuse and I really like it so far.
Just checkin' to see if you all can suggest any great music festivals if you are in the midwest America ...that is ?
Mary

Subject: RE: Mandolin: trials and Tribulations
From: Splott Man
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 07:42 AM

When you get better, by all means experiment with a thumb pick. It'll open up new techniques to you. Check out Alison Kraus's mandolin player, he sometimes uses one for a flailing sound.


regards

Splott Man